European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Bilimoria and Lord Howarth of Newport

Report: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bilimoria (CB)]

My Lords, as an answer to what the noble Lord, Lord Howard, has just said, the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, said in moving the amendment that this was all about “Take it or leave it”. Is “Take it or leave it” a meaningful vote? Throughout Committee, the main answer given by the Government was, “We are implementing and executing the will of the people”, while every single day the press says, “Implement the will of those 17.4 million people”. But, as the noble Viscount said, “Leave, whatever the terms”—is that what the people actually said? Is that what is in the national interest?

At the heart of this issue is the fact that in the other place at the time of the referendum two-thirds of MPs, on all estimates, thought that the best thing for this country would be to remain, and right here in this House about 75% thought the same. Yet when the referendum took place, hundreds of those MPs’ constituencies voted to leave, so the MPs are caught in a trap. The confusion is whether they see themselves as delegates or representatives of their constituencies. Are they making these decisions in the best interests of their constituents and country or of their party? Are they managers or leaders? The difference between a manager and a leader is that a manager does things right but a leader does the right thing. Do they have the guts—the guts of the so-called mutineers such as Nicky Morgan, Ken Clarke, Dominic Grieve, Jonathan Djanogly and Tom Tugendhat, and I could go on—to stand up when the time comes to do the right thing?

We discovered in Committee that whether we were discussing borders, education or movement of people, no argument was made. The Government were like a stuck record, simply saying: “The will of the people”. The amendment would give MPs in the other place and this House the power to stand up to do the right thing for the country. The noble Lord, Lord Howard, talked about a constitutional crisis. What constitution do we have where a Government bully Parliament and say, “Take it or leave it”? It is Parliament that should be supreme, in the best interests of the people and the country. Thanks to this amendment, Parliament would have the ability to stop the train crash that is Brexit.

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Lympne, is absolutely right to draw our attention to the constitutional dangers that lurk within the amendment. It goes too far to bind the Government.

I think it is time that we drew breath. We have had a very exciting couple of weeks but it is time to think about the respective roles of the Executive and Parliament and of the House of Commons and the House of Lords, as other noble Lords who have spoken have done. Parliament is not the Government and it should not try to usurp their role. Of course the Government emanate from Parliament and are accountable to it, the Government should be advised by Parliament and are invigilated and sustained by it, and if they lose the confidence of Parliament then they fall, but the Government are not the same as Parliament and Parliament is not the same as the Government. We have a separation of powers. The Government are the Executive, and Parliament neither can nor should act as the Executive.

It was improper and inept for the Government ever to suppose that they could bypass Parliament in dealing with Brexit. Of course there must be a meaningful vote, but it is for the Government to negotiate, listening all the time to Parliament—Parliament constantly proffers its advice—and then eventually to submit the deal that they have negotiated to Parliament for its approval or otherwise. You can call it a take-it-or-leave-it vote, but nobody could say that that is not a meaningful vote.

Dominic Grieve, someone for whom I have the greatest respect and the warmest regard, justified his amendment to Clause 9, requiring that the final terms of the deal should be approved by a statute, on the basis that it was essential to prevent the Government exercising the biggest Henry VIII power ever. That was an understandable and legitimate motive, but to require that the deal should be approved by the laborious process of statute seems to me to go too far in an inappropriate direction. Parliament cannot negotiate. Parliament certainly cannot negotiate by legislation or amendment. It cannot change the deal, it cannot bind the European Union. It can bind the Government in an excessively narrow straitjacket, and that would be an extraordinarily unhelpful thing to do in the national interest. The process of legislating such a statute would serve only to prolong the uncertainty about which everyone complains.

Amendment 49 would develop the Grieve amendment and take it further. It repeats the requirement for a statute already in Clause 9, but doubles up with the requirement for a resolution. It then goes further. Proposed new subsection (5) states that if the House of Commons does not approve the draft terms, the Government “must follow any direction” given by the House of Commons. That seems to me the most extraordinary provision. Of course, legislation routinely binds Governments for the future, but it does not tie their negotiating hand. It should not, specifically, tie this Government’s hands as they seek to perform this particular complex, sensitive, immensely difficult, crucial set of negotiations.

The resolution could say anything. It could say, “Go back to the negotiating table”. It could stipulate that the Government deliver what is undeliverable. It could rescind Article 50. It could call for a general election or another referendum. These are exceedingly important matters where the Government should listen to Parliament, but the Government should lead and Parliament should respond.

If we reflect on the relationship between your Lordships’ House and the House of Commons and our respective responsibilities, surely it is our responsibility to advise the House of Commons, to advise the Government. In the words of the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, it is to suggest, to argue, to explain. It is no part of this House’s responsibility to seek to manipulate the House of Commons or the Government, to seek to choreograph future proceedings of the House of Commons, and certainly no part of our responsibility effectively to pull the rug from under the Government.

If we pass this amendment and some of the others on the Marshalled List today, I fear that we shall be getting too big for our constitutional boots, and many of our fellow countrymen feel the same.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Bilimoria and Lord Howarth of Newport

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 18th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, I listened to the noble Lords, Lord Kerr and Lord Patten, with much interest and even pleasure. They are virtuosi—but as I sometimes find when I listen to virtuosi, they are not entirely convincing. Amendment 4 is simply too vague for us to send it to the other place. If those who tabled it insist that the Government should seek to negotiate membership of a customs union, it behoves them to be specific about the features of the customs union that they believe would be appropriate in the interests of our country.

Let us be clear that we all want continuing free movement of goods between this country and the European Union. That is not in contention; it is a major objective of the Government in their negotiations. Those who support the amendment, which refers to “a customs union”, not to the existing customs union, should explain how the alternative customs union that they envisage would differ from the existing customs union.

For example, how would it differ with regard to the common external tariff, which the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, has just mentioned? At what level do those who tabled the amendment think the CET should be pitched? A common external tariff is protectionist, and as such is bad for the efficiency and productivity of our industries. It puts up the prices of goods imported from outside the European Union into the United Kingdom, to the disadvantage of our consumers and our producers: 21% of household incomes in this country are, on average, spent on food, clothing and footwear. Indeed, a higher percentage is spent by less well-off households. The existing customs union puts high tariffs on these essentials: 26% on food, 11.8% on clothing and 11.4% on footwear, on average. Also objectionable about the common external tariff is the fact that, as a barrier to imports from developing countries, it impairs their economic development. The European Union’s average external tariff is 5.1%. That is high compared with the USA’s external tariff of 3.5%. Noble Lords insist that the Government should state their precise objectives in negotiation. Will they state theirs? What should the common external tariff be? Do they envisage a customs union without a common external tariff? That would be very good, but is it in the realm of possibility? Is it not, in fact, better to seek to negotiate a free trade agreement?

If the new customs union to be negotiated differs from the existing customs union, how would it solve the problem of the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic? Noble Lords should explain that. How would the two sets of rules of the new customs union and the existing customs union of the EU interact? What dispute resolution mechanism do they intend?

Do they think that the European Union would accept a radically liberalised form of customs union with the United Kingdom and allow us such enhanced freedoms? It would be lovely, but it seems unlikely. However, unless they do and can say how their alternative customs union would work, we have to conclude that the amendment is tabled simply for tactical reasons, a device, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, candidly acknowledged, to enable the House of Commons to have a debate and vote on a customs union. Actually, what they clearly want is for us to stay in the existing customs union.

If we send an amendment to the other place, it will be amendable. Amendments to a vague amendment could go anywhere. Some noble Lords—I certainly exonerate my noble friends on the Opposition Front Bench—entertain the hope that a cross-party combination of remainers could force the Government to commit to staying permanently in the existing customs union, with all the disadvantages that the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, and others have described, including our inability to strike free trade agreements with other countries. As the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, reminded us, a customs union is in practice inextricable from a single market and from compliance with a whole mass of European Union rules on which we would have no say. I fail to see how that is reconcilable with our democratic values.

Only today in the Times it is reported that there is just such a manoeuvre of Members of Parliament to form a cross-party alliance and to force this issue. Noble Lords who support this amendment should come clean and say what the game is. It is not appropriate that we should write into statute vague amendments and tactical devices.

[Lord Bilimoria (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Lords, Lord Howarth and Lord Lamont, have given the other side of the argument to what the noble Lords, Lord Patten and Lord Kerr, have proposed. Of course, the European Union is not perfect; of course, with the customs union, there will be disadvantages and advantages, but the bottom line is this: whether free trade between the UK and the EU is 50% or whether it is declining and is now approaching 40%, it is still by far the biggest element of our trade. To have duty-free free movement within that customs union is a huge advantage—that is point number one, before you look at anything outside the European Union.

Then there is this whole talk about going global. What a lot of nonsense. We have always been a global trading nation; we have always been an open economy, an open market, and respected for it, which is why we are a recipient of among the highest levels of inward investment in the world. On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Patten, about this taking time, the Canadian free trade deal, CETA, took eight years; it is also, to my knowledge, thousands of pages’ long. It is nowhere near as good as the free trade agreement that we have at the moment with the European Union. Our other 53 agreements representing almost 20% of our trade beyond the European Union are good but nowhere near as good as that with the European Union. We cannot just substitute them. The noble Lord, Lord Patten, gave as just one example the South Korean deal, where they say, “Don’t expect us just to roll over—65 million versus 500 million. No, it is a different deal altogether”.

CHOGM—the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting—is taking place here. I would love to do more business with the Commonwealth— 2.4 billion people; India has 1.25 billion people. What is our total trade with the Commonwealth at the moment? It is 9% of our trade—9% versus the 50% that we have with the European Union. Let us get real. We would love to do more with India—I am the founding chairman of the UK India Business Council. How many free trade deals does India have with any country in the world on a bilateral basis? It has nine, and not one with a western country. Here is the crux of it; I know this from the horse’s mouth—Prime Minister Narendra Modi is over here in the UK today. If you ask India what its priority is, an EU-India free trade agreement or a UK-India free trade agreement, you will be told that an EU-India agreement is much more important to India and it has been working on it for several years.

On the referendum and the point about the manifesto, when people voted to leave, they did not vote to leave on any basis. They did not vote, saying, “Please leave the customs union”. The red lines of leaving the single market and leaving the customs union were put down by the Prime Minister, not by the people who voted to leave: they did not say on what basis to leave. Our job as Parliament, what we are trying to do here, is damage limitation. This amendment is about damage limitation, because the best thing by far is to remain within the customs union—for our economy, for our businesses, for our citizens and for our country.