Infrastructure Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 3rd July 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Bradshaw]

The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, with which I agree, mentions “speed control systems”. We are considering the Deregulation Bill on Monday, which makes specific provision for a lot of the enforcement of speed and other offences to be undertaken by people who go round with pads rather than the modern method of using cameras. Will the Minister cover that, or at least take it away and get sorted out the apparent contradictions between those two pieces of legislation?

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

Well, my Lords, that is a bumper that whistled past the Minster’s ears. It is an interesting little challenge. I have no views on what the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, has said, except that I usually consider what he says to have a modicum of very good sense.

I support my noble friends’ amendments. My noble friend Lord Whitty made a persuasive case for the opening amendment. My own amendment would merely establish a consistent theme for us in this legislation: we want to see the Office of Rail Regulation playing a significant role in the road network. It should publish guidance and have powers to require efficient use of the road network. That is what it does for rail. As the noble Baroness will have noted a few moments ago, I was seeking to extol the virtues of a degree of integration between these two critical features of our transport infrastructure. This is one modest step towards that. The Office of Rail Regulation should promote not just efficient spending but efficient management of the road network. It has earned the approval of many of us through its work on the rail system. There is surely merit in it doing so for the road while furthering the prospects of integration between two main features of our transport infrastructure, which will be an abiding theme of the Opposition’s position on the Bill.

Grand Committee

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 21st May 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing the debate. I am well aware of what was intended in the 2008 Act and have no comments to make on it. However, in the past week the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State announced in the Commons that he was proposing a review of the transport commissioners’ duties. Apparently it is a quinquennial arrangement and the duties must be reviewed on that basis. I will draw two or three matters to the Minister’s attention, with a view to him raising with the Department for Transport certain issues that should be included in the review.

The first concerns the management of highways. This Act also elevated the position of local authorities in the management of the highways. The Minister will recall the use of the words,

“broaden a lot of the penalties”.

The traffic commissioners have a duty to bring before a traffic commissioner’s court the bus operators whose vehicles either do not keep time or run erratically. That is perfectly reasonable, but in a number of cases the operators concerned find it almost impossible to run a regular and reliable service because the highway is obstructed. It may be obstructed by roadworks, which are often carried out in a very undisciplined fashion, or by inconsiderate parking. These are matters over which the local authority and not the bus operator has control.

What I am asking in the first place is that, where a bus service is shown to be unreliable, if the traffic commissioner believes that the highway authority is not discharging its duty to provide a highway along which a reasonable bus service may be operated, they should have the ability to summon the director of highways, or whoever in a local authority is responsible, to give an explanation of the way they are contributing to the operation of a decent bus service. This is not meant to be divisive, but we are moving into an era of partnership working between local authorities and bus operators, and it is reasonable that a balance should be made, and that where a local authority is not playing by the rules, it should be answerable to the traffic commissioner.

The second matter that I will raise—again, I would like it to be addressed in the upcoming review—is the question of goods vehicle operating centres. Traffic commissioners have the duty of approving premises where goods vehicle operators are based. That includes the facilities for maintaining and stabling the vehicles, and having access to the highway. However, the traffic commissioner is not allowed to take his consideration any further than the gates of the depot. Sometimes—this is happening more and more as farms become heavy haulage depots—you will find that heavy lorries are making their way on to totally unsuitable roads. I am suggesting that the traffic commissioner’s discretion should extend to the point where the lorry will meet a main road, and that we should not let our lanes be devastated by heavy lorries that not only destroy the road surface and are dangerous but make for unfair competition.

That brings me to my third issue: the question of the competition authorities. As the Minister said in opening, the traffic commissioner licenses new local bus services but has no discretion whatever about what a local bus service should be. For example, if the noble Lord, Lord Davies, runs a bus service that runs on the hour and the half hour, I can come along and register a service at 57 and 27 minutes past the hour so that I run my bus three minutes in front of his and take all his passengers. I am asking that there should be an element of discretion in the traffic commissioner agreeing to a licence. Where the people who are trying to register a new bus service can be shown to be acting in a predatory way, which is not difficult to judge, the traffic commissioner should insist that journeys are spaced out evenly so that the public get a better service and we do not engage in the thoroughly wasteful bus wars that have been going on since 1985 and still flare up in some areas.

I am quite pleased with the order being laid before us because it makes more efficient use of traffic commissioners’ time, and I hope they will be run better. However, some small additions to their duties ought to be considered in the review that is to take place.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the Minister for his introduction to this statutory instrument. I indicate from the beginning that I thoroughly endorse the principal objective of the instrument—namely, that the link between a traffic commissioner and a geographical area should end and that we should have the degree of flexibility that the SI envisages for the operation of the traffic commissioners and, particularly, the head of the service.

It was suggested yesterday that in the question I asked in the House, which I thought was suitably penetrating, I was in fact too kind to the Minister, so the Minister today will not expect me to be too kind to Ministers on consecutive days. I therefore have one or two points that are slightly more abrasive than my general introduction, in which I just said that I support the thrust of the SI, not least because it builds on legislation that was passed by the previous Administration in 2008 with regard to the commissioners.

I am not quite as constructive as the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, has been with his questions about the traffic commissioners. I am having difficulty in understanding the timing of this SI. Why are we doing this when the Minister announced earlier this week that he was reviewing the whole question of traffic commissioners? It seems odd to have a statutory instrument recasting the position of traffic commissioners that is predicated on the assumption that there will be a review of the whole situation in the very near future. It looks to me as if that is back to front, and I should like an explanation from the Minister for why the SI has been tabled at this particular moment, although it has merit.

I appreciate the points that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, made. There is no doubt at all that the Minister will appreciate that the punctuality of services is absolutely critical to their use by the public. This is particularly so in rural areas, where people often have very limited cover when they are waiting at bus stops. Therefore, I very much appreciate the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw. If competition is introduced and two bus companies provide a service, it is better that the commissioner regulates those services to the benefit of the public rather than allow the free wind of competition to enable one bus company to pre-empt the other by running the service just in advance of its competitor. I hope and expect that the traffic commissioners will attend to that issue. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, is to be commended for having raised it and I hope that the Minister will respond to that point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Popat]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, raises an important issue. I am glad the taxpayer is not subsidising the transport operators, whereas the taxpayer is subsidising or making free bus passes available to people aged over 60. So I am glad that the £2 billion is not going to the transport industry directly but is for the benefit of the people who use public transport.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I understand the point. It does not go directly as a subsidy to the buses. However, the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, is indicating that it is not an advantage to the industry that there is a guarantee from the public purse that certain people will have their fares paid for by the Government and be able to travel free—a position that we all endorse and are in favour of. If he does not think that that subsidy is an advantage to the industry, I wonder which world he is living in.

[Lord Bradshaw]

If I may reply to that, the bus companies are not reimbursed for the fare; they are reimbursed for a percentage of the fare, which, on average, is about 40% of what people would pay anyway. So it is not a question of handing over sacks of money to the bus companies. They have to provide more capacity to carry the extra people.

Road Safety (Financial Penalty Deposit) (Appropriate Amount) (Amendment) Order 2010

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Lord Davies of Oldham

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Grand Committee

[Lord Bradshaw]

I have no objection to this whatever.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, neither have I, but I am going to speak at slightly greater length than the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, if only to congratulate the Minister on the lucid way in which he presented the order. He deserves a larger audience when the Government are for once doing good things. I commend him on what he is doing and I am sorry that he has a limited response here today. He has wholehearted support on my part and, so far as I can detect from the brief remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, he has 100 per cent from him too.

I appreciate the particular and gentle way in which the Minister indicated that there had been an error with regard to motorcycles in 2009. I am glad that that has been corrected, not least because those in the motorbike community sometimes feel that they are hard pressed even to the point of being victimised because they travel on two wheels. We all know from the incidence of accidents that it is a more hazardous form of travel. Therefore, at times motor cyclists are prone to considerable criticism for the accident rate, particularly since, as we know, a very small number are guilty of offending against speed limits in ways that cannot possibly be condoned. I am therefore glad that, on this occasion, we are indicating that fair is fair and making sure that the minor error that occurred in 2009 is put right.

We particularly commend that part of the order dealing with seat belts. There is no doubt that in the range of legislation that has helped to reduce fatalities and injuries over the years, seat-belt legislation takes pride of place. It has been of enormous significance. That is why successive Governments have extended its range and salience. We are entirely in favour of this order, which increases the deposit as far as seat belts are concerned.

I am interested in the noble Earl’s point about registration numbers. Perhaps he will correct what may be my somewhat dated perspective; can he make it absolutely clear whether number plate law obtains to the same specifications across the European Community? He emphasised the aspect to do with foreign vehicles and he is absolutely right that number plate recognition is an important part of law enforcement. I believe, for instance, that at present several countries do not expect motor bikes to have front number plates. I recall—this is where I am slightly hesitant because I may be a little dated—when Italian front number plates, particularly on fast Alfa Romeos, were of a microscopic quality, so even those with the keenest eyesight had difficulty in recognising them. I am not sure that the new technology is up to that. Can the Minister therefore offer that element of reassurance on number plates? Is there a degree of standardisation, and does that which obtains as far as the British motorist is concerned apply also to foreign motorists when they bring cars into this country and may be guilty of traffic offences?

I know we have tightened up on this matter but there is always the tendency for people to select a number plate that has an affectionate dimension to it. Therefore, the characters are produced in ways that mean they may not always be entirely recognisable. I saw one the other day that I was certain was the driver’s favourite nickname for his girlfriend. You had to get pretty close to the car—I do not know about the girlfriend—before you could easily recognise the number plate. I am just seeking reassurance on that score.

The noble Earl should recognise that we very much approve of the order and realise that it is under the affirmative procedure. That is why we are debating it today. If not, we would have been content for the order to go through.