Brexit: Transition Period

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Monday 16th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, we have agreed a time-limited implementation period where businesses in the UK and the EU will continue to access each other’s markets on current terms and will ensure that they have to make only one set of changes. That is what business has been asking for, and that is exactly what it is getting. We are working at pace to ensure that all the necessary arrangements are in place for 31 December 2020.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, my question actually related to the end of the transition period, which has been brought forward by three months. Will my noble friend commit the Government to keeping under constant review the state of preparedness of government departments and agencies, such as the Food Standards Agency and others, to ensure that all regulations will be in place? Assuming that the Government do not wish to be part of a customs arrangement with the EU, what will happen on the vexed question of rules of origin for industries such as the food industry, the car industry and other manufacturing industries that rely so much on imported goods?

[Lord Callanan]

I thank my noble friend for her question, but of course we want to be part of a customs arrangement with the EU. That is one of the matters that we will need to discuss with it. I can agree with her that the department keeps all the necessary arrangements under constant review, and we will do so throughout the implementation period to make sure that everything is in place for the end of that period on 31 December 2020.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, every time I have heard or read a briefing from business over the past 18 months, it has talked about the need for certainty so that business can invest for the long term. By the long term, business means five years, not two. It seems to many of us that the Government are in danger of allowing a transition period to be used to put off telling business what the future arrangements will be for another 20 months. Can the Government assure us that by this October they will be able to give business detailed assurances about the sorts of future arrangements we are likely to have for trade and investment with the EU at the end of the transition period?

[Lord Callanan]

We have said that we want to get the withdrawal agreement bottomed out and agreed by October and that we also want to agree future partnerships in as much detail as possible to provide that certainty. I accept the noble Lord’s point that this is a time of uncertainty. We are working at pace to try to provide that certainty.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister explain why any country in the world would want to do a better trade deal with a country with a population of 50 million when it would have a chance of getting a better deal with the rest of Europe, which has a population of 500 million?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

The problem with the EU negotiating trade deals is that it does it on behalf of 28 countries, shortly to become 27, which all have different priorities and different things that they want to agree within that deal, and of course that makes them difficult to agree for the bloc as a whole. As a country that believes in free trade, we will be able to do it in a swifter and more efficient manner.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords—

[Lord Mountevans (CB)]

Would the Minister see merit in the implementation period having two elements—first, a bridging period to cover the time between exit and when the agreement is ratified and becomes unconditional, and, secondly, an adaptation period, starting on the expiry of the bridging period? This would enable businesses to be clearer and to adapt to whatever is finally agreed.

[Lord Callanan]

We set out in the agreement that we reached with the EU how we see the implementation period working, which is pretty much to maintain the existing arrangements in place to provide certainty for businesses.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, I would like to talk about the transition period. We now understand that we are coming out of all the agencies in March, so we will be out of the European Medicines Agency in March. What is the attitude of the pharmaceutical industry to that decision?

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Baroness makes a good point. We are continuing the discussions with the EU to see what the precise formulation of our involvement in the various agencies will be. We are clear that we want to remain involved and participate in the work of those agencies, which are so essential for many businesses in the UK, but we are currently discussing how precisely that will work during the implementation period.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, the Government were looking for a two-year transition period, which they themselves said was a short period of time.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, could my noble friend reassure us that the Government are listening to British business concerns about how long it will take to make new agreements on the rules of origin if we do not remain in a customs union with the EU, particularly as that will affect the food and automobile industries?

[Lord Callanan]

We have undertaken extensive consultations with industry and businesses. We are doing it all the time. I do it myself. We have undertaken more than 500 recorded DExEU organised engagements with businesses and civil society to find out what the concerns of businesses are. We are of course taking the feedback that we have received from them to the negotiations with the EU.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I shall have my third attempt, and I thank the House for letting me. The Government were looking for a two-year transition deal, which they themselves understood was short. The EU said “21 months, that’s it”, and we just said yes. Why was that? Was that not selling out Britain and British industry?

[Lord Callanan]

No, I do not think it was. The Prime Minister made it clear that she was looking at an implementation period of around two years, which of course even the Liberal Democrats will know is 24 months. We eventually agreed that 21 months would be the period. We did not think that three months was a huge difference. These things are of course always subject to negotiations. We had to reach agreement, and we did. It is important that the implementation period is time-limited, and 31 December 2020 is a good time to end it because that is the end of the current multiannual financial framework.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Monday 16th April 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Callanan]

To move that the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order:

Clauses 1 to 5, Schedule 1, Clauses 6 to 9, Clause 16, Schedule 7, Clause 17, Clause 10, Schedule 2, Clause 11, Schedule 3, Clause 14, Schedule 6, Clause 15, Clause 12, Schedule 4, Clause 13, Schedule 5, Clauses 18 and 19, Schedules 8 and 9, Title.

Motion agreed.

Brexit: British Citizens

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Thursday 29th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of their intention for the United Kingdom to leave the European Union on 29 March 2019, whether, and on what basis, British citizens can be confident that they will have reached agreement by that date on a future relationship with the European Union.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, Article 50 states that the withdrawal agreement must take account of the framework for our future relationship and the terms of withdrawal. We have been working intensively to agree an implementation period, codify the joint report into legal text and reach agreement on the entire withdrawal agreement by October. The deal reached last week provides greater certainty to businesses and citizens. We are confident that we can reach a deal that is in the best interests of both parties.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I am delighted to be the first of four Liberal Democrats asking Questions on this important day. Does the Government’s plan for “Brexit means Brexit” not turn out to mean “Brexit in name only” and that, in the words of Jacob Rees-Mogg, the UK will be a “vassal state”? Can the Government therefore explain, one year before they are set to make us Brexit, what the point is of going through with their version of Brexit and why they will not agree to let the people decide, on the facts, whether it is worth it?

[Lord Callanan]

It is interesting to hear the Liberal Democrats quoting Jacob Rees-Mogg. The point is to implement the results of the referendum. The Liberals will probably want to forget about this but the people have already had a say on the issue, both in the referendum and in the subsequent general election, neither of which went very well for the Liberal Democrats.

[Viscount Ridley (Con)]

Is the Minister aware of a new poll showing that, by 65% to 35%, the British people oppose a second referendum, the flagship policy of the Liberal Democrat party?

[Lord Callanan]

I had not seen that poll but I am aware that the British people oppose most Liberal Democrat policies.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

In the circumstances of there being no agreement, what would be a meaningful vote in the other Chamber? Would MPs have the option to reject going out on World Trade Organization terms and to remain in the European Union?

[Lord Callanan]

We have been very clear that we want a deal, and at every subsequent stage we have reached agreement, so we are confident that we will get a deal. When we have a deal, we will put it to a vote in the House of Commons and in this House. We have been very clear that if that option is rejected, of course we leave under the Article 50 process anyway.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, is it not true that polling shows that if we were talking about a vote on the deal, seven out of 10 people would like to have it? On this day, a year before the Government have chosen to take us out of the EU at whatever cost, will the Government tell the young people of this country exactly what opportunities they propose to take away from them?

[Lord Callanan]

When we have a deal, which I am confident we will get, we will come back to this House, we will put the option to both Houses and we will report back to the public, including young people.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Should we not congratulate my noble friend on the brilliant job that he has done during Committee on the Bill, such that the opposition spokesman on foreign affairs, Mrs Emily Thornberry, said that the Opposition will probably vote for the deal when it is put before the Commons?

[Lord Callanan]

I thank my noble friend for his comments, but let us see how Report goes before we get the congratulations in too early. Yes, Emily Thornberry’s comments yesterday were interesting, as were Keir Starmer’s at the weekend when he said:

“I don’t think there is any realistic prospect of”,


Article 50 “being revoked”. On the referendum, he said:

“Having asked the electorate for a view by way of the referendum, we have to respect the result”.


I never thought I would hear myself say it, but on this occasion I agree with the Labour Party.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

I am glad the Minister agrees with the Labour Party. Will he also agree that the six tests that we have set should be met? This must be a Brexit for jobs, for people, for all regions of the country and for all parts of the country. That is what we want the Government to seek. Will he agree to meet those tests?

[Lord Callanan]

It depends on what the Labour Party’s policy is for this week, but if the six tests are the policy for this week, of course we will try to reach a Brexit deal that works for everyone, is good for jobs, for British industry and for people, and respects the result of the referendum.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the Eurocrats turned down our offer of mutual residence before Christmas 2016? Is this not yet another example of the Eurocrats looking after their own interests and the survival of their failing project, and putting it in front of the interests of the people of Europe? There are 4 million of them living here and only 1.2 million of us living there.

[Lord Callanan]

I think there are 3 million EU citizens here in the UK. I am not sure it is helpful to go back through the history of who offered what. We are delighted that we have reached a deal whereby EU citizens’ rights in this country are granted, which is where we always wanted to be, and—a very important matter—UK citizens living in other EU countries have their rights guaranteed as well. We are happy to have agreed this issue. We want to provide safety and security for those citizens in future, and I am sure the House will endorse that.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, on this historic day, can my noble friend not make a clear statement to the House that, having made this provisional agreement, we will stick to it and every European citizen living in this country will be guaranteed the rights that many of us wanted them to be guaranteed by our taking the moral high ground nearly two years ago?

[Lord Callanan]

Of course we intend to stick to the agreement. I agree with my noble friend: it is good to provide security to those citizens, but it is also important to bear in mind the interests of those UK citizens living in EU countries. We have reached a deal on that—both lots have their rights guaranteed, and that is a good situation.

[Lord Tomlinson (Lab)]

Can the Minister explain to your Lordships’ House the basis of his confidence that we will get an agreement on Northern Ireland, for example, which is acceptable not only to the Irish people on both sides of the border but respects the terms of the agreement that his party has made—at a price—with the Democratic Unionist Party?

[Lord Callanan]

Of course, the Irish situation is difficult. It is proving a thorny issue, but the Prime Minister committed us to sitting down for talks with the European Commission and the Irish Government. All sides are committed to a deal and to having no hard border. It is clear that we need to look at this issue in the context of the final customs arrangement that we will enter into with the EU, but we are confident that a deal can be reached. Both sides are committed to the Good Friday agreement and we want it to work.

Brexit: Immigration

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Thursday 29th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Hamwee, and at her request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in her name on the Order Paper.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, we welcome the Migration Advisory Committee’s interim report and will consider it carefully as we plan for the future immigration system. However, the MAC has been clear that the analysis is not complete, so it would be wrong to pre-empt its final report, which is due in September. The Government will take account of the MAC’s advice when making decisions about our future immigration system.

[Lord Paddick]

My Lords, the CBI’s director of people, in response to the report, says that,

“restricting access to EU workers—at a time of record employment rates—would leave companies without the staff they need to grow and invest”.

Will the free movement of EU citizens continue after Brexit across all borders between the EU and the UK or only across the border between the EU and Northern Ireland?

[Lord Callanan]

We have been very clear that free movement will end at the end of the implementation period. Having said that, in our negotiations with the EU we are committed to seeing how we can smooth the flow of people in the future. However, we are very clear that one message from the referendum was that we need to take back control of immigration and deliver that for the people.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I hope that this is the last time that I will have to be here before the break, and I wish everyone a happy Easter. The Greek Easter will be a week later—pungent bitter herbs for those who are about to commemorate Passover. I understand that there is now to be a further delay to the immigration Bill. Would it not have been a very good idea if, before fixing the exit date, the Government had decided what sort of role there would be for EU citizens after leaving? Will they come into this country in the same way as Commonwealth citizens or American citizens, or in some other way? We are now facing leaving without any idea of what our future Immigration Rules will be. Is it not time that we moved on that?

[Lord Callanan]

I thank the noble Baroness for her Easter good wishes. I think that I will spend my Easter studying amendments to the withdrawal Bill; nevertheless, I hope that we all get some time off. Yesterday the Home Secretary said that we expect to publish a White Paper on a future immigration system before the end of the year in order for consultations to go forward. Legislation will follow that but we have already provided certainty for what will happen during the implementation period up to the end of 2020.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord has just confirmed that we will have zero certainty about immigration on exit day, if exit day is in March next year. If there is a White Paper by the end of the year, the chances of getting an immigration Bill through by exit day is nil. How does the noble Lord expect people to judge the impact of exit if they do not have the faintest idea what our immigration system will be at the point of exit?

[Lord Callanan]

I think that the noble Lord is a bit confused about this. We are very clear—and we reached agreement on this—that during the implementation period, which will start on exit day, all the current arrangements will be replicated so that people will have certainty about the system until the end of 2020, another 21 months after exit day. After that, we will put in place a new immigration system, which is what the White Paper will be about. Therefore, we do have certainty on what will happen next year.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

Can the Minister confirm that there is no confusion about the way that the new computer system at the border will work, and can he deny the allegations in the press that it will take five years to put it in place?

[Lord Callanan]

It would be very dangerous for a Minister to stand at this Dispatch Box and speak with certainty about computer systems. However, I am sure that, as we speak, the best brains in the land are getting to work to put in place a robust system that will work properly and efficiently in the future.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord has just said that we will not have the new immigration system until the end of the implementation period. Is he implying that freedom of movement will continue during that period, so that that is another area where, in effect, there will be a standstill agreement until the end of 2020?

[Lord Callanan]

Yes. Freedom of movement will continue during the implementation period subject to a registration system.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, following on from that, will the White Paper look ahead at the infrastructure implications of continued immigration for GPs, schools and all of our infrastructure across the UK?

[Lord Callanan]

My noble friend makes a good point. That is one of the key questions that will need to be answered in designing and implementing the new system. I am sure the White Paper will take that fully into account. However, we will want to hear views and comments from all interested parties.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is entirely convincing about how confident he is that there will be a technological solution in time. He has just told your Lordships that the arrangements will continue through the implementation and transition stage. What if there is no transition stage because we crash out of the EU? What happens then in a year’s time?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

As we have said, we are confident that we can get a deal. At every stage so far the doomsayers have said we would not reach agreement and we have. We have agreed all the details of an implementation period. Clearly that needs to be subject to final agreement and, like any responsible Government, we are carefully assessing our contingency options if there is not a deal. However, we are confident that there will be a deal.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, is not the truth that the Government are trying to hoodwink the British people by not revealing their post-Brexit immigration plans this year? What surely will happen because of the sectoral demands for labour is that the volume of people coming from the EU will be similar to now, but we and EU citizens will have lost our free movement rights. It is a lose-lose scenario, and there will be a great deal more red tape for employers.

[Lord Callanan]

More water is being spilt at the Dispatch Box. Where is the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, when we need him? I have forgotten the question now. We are confident that we will be able to put in place a new system. The referendum was about taking back control of immigration and when we deliver the results that the British people voted for it will be a win-win situation.

Brexit: European Council and Commission

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Tuesday 27th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, the European Union published a draft withdrawal agreement text as part of our ongoing negotiations under Article 50. We have made significant progress towards concluding much of the withdrawal agreement by agreeing the chapters on financial settlement and citizens’ rights, in line with the joint report, as well as the terms of a time-limited implementation period. We will carry this momentum forward and aim to reach agreement on the entire withdrawal agreement by October.

[Lord Dykes (CB)]

I thank the Minister for that Answer. How long will the Government need to renegotiate the existing trade agreements with non-members who have trade agreements with the European Union as a whole? Will the 21 months of the transition period be enough?

[Lord Callanan]

We are pursuing many of these multilateral agreements in a whole range of areas, including trade agreements, and we are confident that we have enough time to complete those negotiations.

[Lord Bridges of Headley (Con)]

Perhaps my noble friend could clarify a point from the Statement yesterday. In the Statement, the Prime Minister said that,

“we remain committed to the agreement we reached in December in its entirety”.

A little later, she said, on the Northern Ireland border:

“I have explained that the specific European Commission proposals for that backstop were unacceptable”.—[Official Report, Commons, 26/3/18; col. 524.]


Which is it: do we accept the agreement in its entirety or do we not?

[Lord Callanan]

I thank my noble friend for his question. The Government are committed to the avoidance of a hard border, including any physical infrastructure or related checks and controls. The UK’s intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the UK would propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

Do we confidently expect to get a better deal on our own with, for example, South Korea, than the EU will get?

[Lord Callanan]

It will be a matter for the negotiations, but we hope to achieve an agreement at least as good as the existing trade agreement with South Korea, yes.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, is not the truth that, despite barbs often directed at Brussels, EU institutions have proved far more transparent, accessible and accountable—and, I might add, more honest—than Ministers and departments in Whitehall? There is no way that we would have this annotated withdrawal agreement if it had been left to the UK Government. Does not the Brexit process show how much our democracy and governance need modernising?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

I am afraid I just do not agree with the premise of the noble Baroness’s question. We are extremely transparent and very accountable. We published a draft legal text on the implementation period. The EU publishes many documents; we publish many documents. We appear at numerous Select Committees and debates in this House to account for the Government’s strategy. We are committed to being as transparent as possible but, obviously, as is the case with the EU, we do not want to do anything to prejudice our negotiating position.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tebbit]

My Lords, could my noble friend perhaps arrange some sort of education process for those people on the other side of the House who do not believe that the British people are capable of running a democratic process? We had been doing it for quite a long time before most of those on the continent got round to the idea of having a democratic process.

[Lord Callanan]

I see that my noble friend is as provocative as ever. We believe in democracy; part of the referendum was about taking back control. I am sure that this House, and the other place, are quite capable of organising our own affairs in the future.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Was that not a waste of a question? You would have thought the noble Lord would have learned by now. Would the Minister now care to try to answer the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, without reading from a pre-arranged brief? Which statement is correct: the first, that everything is agreed; or the second, that we have not agreed in relation to Northern Ireland? Which is correct?

[Lord Callanan]

We have a number of things to discuss with the EU about Northern Ireland. As I said to the noble Lord, it is one of the areas that has not been bottomed out into a legal agreement yet. We are committed to taking those discussions forward with the Commission and the Irish Government, but our red line of having no hard border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic remains, and of course, the indivisibility of the United Kingdom also remains a red line.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

Has the Minister studied the part of the guidelines which says that the European Union would reconsider its approach to trade issues if the British Government were to change their mind? Will the Government show any of that flexibility that the Prime Minister is calling for?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

We have been flexible throughout the negotiations. We want to reach a good flexible agreement with the European Union. We have given some ground, and the EU has given some ground. That is in the nature of European negotiations. I am sure that will continue into the future but, of course, we have our red lines, which will not be crossed.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Foulkes was right: the statements read out by the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, are not compatible with each other. Will the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, undertake to clarify the position and to come back to the House with a clearer and more satisfactory answer than he has been able to give?

[Lord Callanan]

As in all these negotiations, when we reach an agreement with the European Union and the Irish Government on the precise details of the border, we will be sure to report to the House on that matter.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Committee: 10th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 26th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

To be clear, the Opposition believe—as do I personally, as someone who has worked in Gibraltar over the years—that the position of Gibraltar should be a matter for the Gibraltarians. There should be no doubt about that, and we are committed to it. They have had a referendum and we will completely stick to that.

I was about to come on to my comments relating to what the noble Lord, Lord Luce, said. At the end of the day, we want to ensure that we make economic relationships and economic development a high priority. I do not think we should restrict this to comments about the viability of Gibraltar; we should be focused on how we can support a friendly country in developing an economy in the south that has been so difficult to establish over many years. British tourism has been very important to that, but it is also in terms of new industries and finance sectors that could be expanded and developed. I like the proposal by the noble Lord, Lord Luce, that we should be talking positively about economic development in relation to Gibraltar and to how important that is.

To be frank, we cannot rely on Madrid. We should understand the nature of the Spanish psyche here: no matter what the terms of the Treaty of Utrecht were, there is a claim by the Spanish nation over sovereignty and, whichever political party is in power in Spain, socialist or conservative, this issue unites them across the political spectrum. I do not think we are going to resolve that—we cannot tell the Spanish what their views should be—but we can give very clear commitments to Gibraltar and its people, and we should maintain those commitments. What we need to hear from the Minister today is that it is not simply about commitments regarding Gibraltar’s relationships with the UK but that the Government are committed to ensuring that Gibraltar can have a positive economic relationship with the rest of the EU, and that in any final appendix or agreement to the transitional period Gibraltar’s needs are properly considered and there is a positive case. Not only would closing the border be a disaster for Gibraltar but, as people have said in this debate, it would be an incredible cost to this country as well.

In the 1960s we had a very big MoD base in Gibraltar and there was employment. That is not the case any more. It is a different sort of industry and employment that we have to address.

Will the Minister answer the question of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, about what is next under the transitional agreement? What will Gibraltar’s relationship economically be with the rest of the EU? To take up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Luce, what commitments will we give for a positive relationship with Spain to ensure the economic future of Gibraltar and its people, and the people of Andalusia?

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

Let me first agree with the noble Lord, Lord Collins: it has indeed been an excellent debate on an extremely important topic. I also thank the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, for raising the issues, but we do not believe that the new clause is necessary. It posits the need to protect the rights of persons and businesses either from or established in Gibraltar operating in the UK, but none is directly affected by the Bill.

As I begin, I say that we are steadfast in our support for Gibraltar, its people and its economy. Let me directly address the issue put to me by the noble Lords, Lord Hannay and Lord Luce, and by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, about the implementation period.

The territorial scope of the draft withdrawal agreement, including for the implementation period, explicitly includes Gibraltar. That is right, and consistent with our view that we are negotiating on behalf of the whole UK family. We want to get a deal that works for all, including for Gibraltarians. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, asked me to be specific, and it is in Article 3, section 1, paragraph (b) of the draft agreement.

In legislating for the United Kingdom, the Bill seeks to maintain, wherever practicable, the rights and responsibilities that exist in our law at the moment of leaving the EU, and the rights in the UK of those established in Gibraltar are no exception to that. We respect Gibraltar’s own legislative competence and the fact that Gibraltar has its own degree of autonomy and responsibilities. For example, Gibraltar has its own repeal Bill.

We are committed to fully involving Gibraltar as we prepare for negotiations to leave to ensure that its priorities are taken properly into account. As has been mentioned, we are working closely with Gibraltar, including through the dedicated Joint Ministerial Council on Gibraltar EU Negotiations.

The Bill, however, is not the place for legislation about Gibraltar. The Bill does not extend to Gibraltar, except in two very minor ways: that, by virtue of Clause 18(3), the powers in Clauses 7 and 17 can be used to amend the European parliamentary elections legislation, which of course covers Gibraltar; and the Bill repeals some UK legislation that extends to Gibraltar.

However, we understand the concerns being expressed through the amendment tabled by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. In response to those concerns, I hope that I can reassure the Committee that access to the UK market for Gibraltar is already protected by law, and my ministerial colleague at the Department for Exiting the EU, Robin Walker, agreed a package of measures at the last Gibraltar JMC on 8 March that will maintain, strengthen and indeed deepen UK-Gibraltar ties.

In financial services, where UK-Gibraltar trade is deepest, this is granted by the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Gibraltar) Order 2001 on the basis of Gibraltar’s participation in EU structures. We have agreed that the UK will guarantee Gibraltar financial services firms’ access to UK markets as now until 2020, even in the unlikely event of no deal being reached. We will design a replacement framework to endure beyond 2020 based on shared high standards of regulation and enforcement and underpinned by modern arrangements for information-sharing, transparency and regulatory co-operation.

Obviously, I always hate to disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, but when it comes to online gambling, the UK has provided assurance that gambling operators based in Gibraltar will continue to access the UK market after we leave the EU in the same way as they do now, and we are working towards agreement of a memorandum of understanding which will enable closer working and collaboration between gambling regulators in Gibraltar and the UK. This work is already under way, so we consider that the amendment is unnecessary.

In this way, we will deliver on our assurances that Gibraltar will enjoy continued access to the UK market for Gibraltar business, based on the Gibraltar authorities having already agreed to maintain full regulatory alignment with the UK.

We will of course keep Parliament informed of progress. Gibraltar is regularly discussed in Questions and in debate: for example, in Oral Questions on 30 January and on Second Reading of this Bill on 31 January.

I hope that I have addressed the noble and learned Baroness’s concerns, and I urge her to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Cormack]

Before my noble friend ends, could he assure the Committee that it will be an absolute aim of negotiations to ensure that Gibraltar continues to enjoy commercial intercourse with the rest of the European Union?

[Lord Callanan]

I am very happy to assure the Committee of that. As I said, we are working closely with the Government and people of Gibraltar. They are at the forefront of our consideration; they are our fellow citizens and our allies. We are working with them, we are co-operating with them and of course, alongside the rest of the negotiations, that will be one of our priorities.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Perhaps the Minister will give way. He mentioned online gambling and financial markets, perhaps looking after the interests of people who are already quite well off. What about the workers who travel across from Spain to Gibraltar and vice versa? What about the tourists? What about ordinary people? There seem to be no guarantees. It all seems to have been done to look after the financial interests of the gamblers and the financial markets.

[Lord Callanan]

I am sorry that the noble Lord has a retrograde opinion on these matters. It may shock him to know that many ordinary people take part in online gambling and indulge in financial services. In fact, many of the workers that he refers to work in those areas, so perhaps he should not apply to everyone else the same prejudices that he has. They are successful industries that employ a lot of people. They are perfectly legal and people have a right to engage in them.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I do not know whether the noble Lord sits in on any of our debates other than those on the Bill. I have been sitting in at Question Time and other debates—it is good to see three Bishops here today—where concerns have been expressed about online gambling and the effect that it has on ordinary people who get caught up in and become addicted to it. If the noble Lord does not understand concerns about that, he is missing an awful lot of the debates that go on in this House.

[Lord Callanan]

Of course I understand those concerns and why the industry needs to be properly regulated. That is being done and we are working with Gibraltar to ensure consistent regulation across the two territories. But of course that is not a matter for the Bill, I am pleased to say.

I hope that, with those reassurances, I have addressed the noble and learned Baroness’s concerns—

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way, but he has left us—and, through us, the Gibraltarians—in a degree of uncertainty. I imagine he will have difficulty replying to this, but presumably he does not think we can negotiate better terms for Gibraltar’s access to the EU 27 than we negotiate for ourselves. That would be a pretty startling victory for the Government, which might just be beyond their powers. If that is so, and as the Prime Minister admits that our access to the European Union 27’s market will be less good after the end of the transitional period than it has been while we are a member, presumably Gibraltar will have to take a hit too.

The second question, which the Minister has not addressed at all, concerns the movement of people across the border between Gibraltar and Andalusia. What does he envisage for that? Presumably, the immigration Bill, which may one day cease to be a mirage floating out there, always several months away from us but never quite attained, will one day be sitting on our Order Paper and will have to regulate how Gibraltar treats migrants or other people crossing that border who currently and during the transitional period are covered by free movement. What are the Government’s plans for that?

[Lord Callanan]

I will give the noble Lord the answer that I have given when he has asked similar questions previously. This is a matter for the immigration Bill. Of course, we will need to discuss the matter of the frontier between Gibraltar and Spain with the Spanish authorities, which we will do in full consultation with the people of Gibraltar. We will be sure to let the noble Lord know when we have an outcome to those negotiations. I hope that the noble Baroness will feel free to withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

Have Her Majesty’s Government given any consideration to a matter that I understand was raised about 15 years ago—granting dominion status to Gibraltar? Dominion status is so supple, varied and wide that it could legitimately and properly encompass the constitutional aspirations of Spain, the United Kingdom and the Gibraltarians themselves.

[Lord Callanan]

I am not an expert on the legal ramifications of dominion status, so if the noble Lord will forgive me, perhaps I may write to him on that.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, I thank all those who have taken part in this debate and the Minister for his partial reply. I recognise that nothing is decided until everything is decided. I concentrated on the business arrangements between the UK and Gibraltar because they are one of the major concerns. Of course, there are many other major concerns for Gibraltar, which is stuck in a very difficult position, but the one thing it has is good trade relations with the United Kingdom and a lot of business. That needed to be in at least the first stage of what would be done. It is not just gambling; it is also education, tourism and the other things that the noble Lord, Lord Luce, set out in his speech today.

It is good that, at least as between the United Kingdom and Gibraltar, there are clear guidelines and Gibraltar has protection. We know—I am very grateful to other speakers for having raised these issues—that the position of Gibraltar is extremely precarious vis-à-vis the EU. In relation to migrants, I understand that Gibraltar wants as many as come across the border daily, mainly from La Línea, to work. It is up to Spain whether it lets them come through. It is not up to the Gibraltar Government, who welcome them. As has been said, I think by the noble Lord, Lord Luce, 13,000 people a day go through, 10,000 of whom are from Andalusia and are Spanish workers. It is very much to the detriment of Spain if it does not allow them through. It was, of course, La Línea and the southern part of Andalusia that really suffered when Spain closed the border for some 15 years.

So, there are reasons why Spain might be sensible. One hopes that the positive discussions that go on may have a good effect. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Luce, and I have said, there are dangers of the threat to Spain. All of us enjoy Spanish holidays and many of us have Spanish relationships, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, has, so we want to be fair to Gibraltar. Gibraltar is part of us but we want to continue to have good relations with Spain. I very much hope that, having got to the first stage—business relations, education and other relationships between Gibraltar and the United Kingdom—we will continue to battle on behalf of the whole of the United Kingdom, including Gibraltar, in whatever arrangements happen during Brexit. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Committee: 10th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 26th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, I absolutely recognise that. There are a number of issues which we hope will be part of the agreement. In business, there are what are called goods already on the market, which I believe the transition agreement will cover. There is the arrest warrant. A number of countries forbid any of their nationals being extradited to a non-EU member state, so we could find that if someone who commits murder here hops off to a member state, unless we have this all agreed in the transition deal, they would be free. I understand that the negotiations will say that where a case has started on its track towards the ECJ, let it finish.

There is a raft of things where, if we come out with a bump in the night, and wake up on 30 March with no deal, it will not just be a fall from the bed, it will be a substantial disadvantage. That is why I am confident that we will have a deal, but therefore I am confident that the Minister will accept the amendment.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her contribution.

I have presumed for the purposes of this response that the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Jay, are intended to ensure that a statute, specifically that provided for in Clause 9(1), is required to approve a situation in which the UK fails to negotiate a deal with the EU.

With the greatest respect, the amendments do not achieve the desired outcome. The statute specified in Clause 9(1) is intrinsically linked to the exercise of the Clause 9 power, which is itself dependent on the existence of a withdrawal agreement. Therefore, in a no-deal scenario, the Clause 9 power and all provisions within it would be unavailable, because there would be no withdrawal agreement.

The amendments would also leave other areas of the Bill inoperable. For example, Clause 7(7)(d) sets out that the power cannot be used to implement the withdrawal agreement. Changing the definition of withdrawal agreement to include the absence of an agreement would therefore leave us unable to use Clause 7 in a no-deal scenario. Vital corrections could not be made in that case and we would be left with many inoperabilities on our statute book.

Of course, I remind the House that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and others have said, we are confident that the UK and EU can reach a positive deal on our future partnership—

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

If the Minister is saying that the amendment does not technically achieve what they want, if we can word it in a way that they want, will the Government then accept it?

[Lord Callanan]

I cannot give the noble Baroness that commitment. I am explaining the amendment and will come to the other implications in a second.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

Perhaps the Minister can give an easier commitment, which is that the Government will use the period between now and Report to draft a provision which has that effect and catches a no-deal situation. I am sure we should be delighted. He has a whole team of draftsmen at his beck and call, so perhaps he could make good use of their Easter recess.

[Lord Callanan]

I am delighted to hear that I have all these people at my beck and call; it seems to have escaped my notice.

I remind the Committee that we are confident that the UK and the EU can reach a positive deal on our future partnership, as we believe that this is in our mutual interest. However, a responsible Government must be prepared for all possible outcomes. To invalidate the Clause 7 power in the absence of an agreement would eradicate a crucial part of our preparations. Putting the issue to one side, I respectfully disagree with the intention of the amendment—that parliamentary approval should be required to leave the EU without a deal. There should be one fundamental fact sitting behind all these debates: the UK is leaving the EU. As noble Lords have heard me say before in Committee, and on which I have been questioned at length, the decision to hold a referendum was put to the electorate in the 2015 general election. That decision was then put into statute in the European Union (Referendum) Act. The referendum was held and delivered a majority in favour of leaving the EU. Parliament then consented to act on that verdict through the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act.

I do not normally read the Observer, but as Keir Starmer had given an interview I thought it would be appropriate for me to read what he had to say on behalf of the Labour Party. It had some interesting quotes. He said:

“Article 50 was triggered a year ago. It expires in 52 weeks and a few days, and I don’t think there is any realistic prospect of it being revoked”.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

Article 50 also says that there will be a withdrawal deal which will include the framework for our future arrangements. Article 50, which we triggered, does not say that we are giving notice that we are leaving and that we are leaving without a deal.

[Lord Callanan]

We are giving notice of our withdrawal. The title was in the Bill that we passed to trigger it. Keir Starmer also said:

“Having asked the electorate for a view by way of the referendum, we have to respect the result”.


I agree with him.

I say again only to remind noble Lords so that they can understand my point of view that there has been a legitimate process, marked at intervals by the consent of both Parliament and the electorate. As I said in an earlier debate, amendments that could be perceived as a means to delay or disregard the referendum result carry with them their own risks—people’s faith in their democracy and its institutions. With that in mind, I do not think that it would be right to add an express mechanism within this Bill which might prevent the referendum result being acted upon.

The Prime Minister has been very clear: we are leaving the EU at the end of March 2019. That is not a question of domestic legislation; it is now a question of the EU treaties. While the detail of our future relationship with the EU has yet to be negotiated, I believe that remaining in the EU is the only outcome which cannot be reconciled with the decision taken in the referendum. I do not think that it would be in the interests of either the EU or the UK to open the door to an ever-continuing negotiation process with no certainty that the UK will ever reach a new, settled relationship with the EU. I was going to finish there but I see that the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, is itching to ask a question.

[Baroness Ludford]

I thank the noble Lord for anticipating my question. He referred to there being a problem with Clause 7(1), which says:

“A Minister … may by regulations make such provision as … appropriate … arising from the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the EU”.


If it is “may”, it could also mean “may not”. If there are no regulations to be made because there is no deal, and therefore there are no deficiencies in retained EU law to remedy, and that is the Government’s position, that subsection does not need to be invoked.

That is surely different from Clause 9. I do not see the parallel. Clause 9(1) refers to the parliamentary enactment of whatever the final terms are. We are talking about a scenario where there is no deal. As was said by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, if you are maintaining that it is unworkable in this situation, the Government need to come up with something that they consider a workable formula. The Minister must surely understand that the point is to make sure there is not wriggle room over where parliamentary responsibility and rights reside, and not to be able to dodge Clause 9(1) by saying, “Well, it’s not really final terms of withdrawal because we are crashing out without a deal”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

We hope not to crash out without a deal, as I have said. If we do not have a withdrawal agreement, there is nothing to implement in Clause 9—therefore, Clause 9 would not be necessary. As I have said many times before, our position is that we are leaving the European Union on 29 March 2019, because that was what was authorised by Parliament when it authorised the Prime Minister to submit the notification under Article 50.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

Does my noble friend truly believe that the British people voted to leave the EU with no deal, with all the implications that that has for the livelihoods and business prospects of this country? That was not on the ballot paper. We have respected the British people’s vote by triggering Article 50 and negotiating with the EU but, if it comes down to the point where we cannot get a deal, surely Parliament must be in control of what happens to the interests of our country in that scenario.

[Lord Callanan]

I believe that the British people voted to leave the EU and we are trying to negotiate the best possible deal to ensure that we leave the EU. To go back to our original argument for all the reasons against the amendment, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Jay, will consent to withdraw it.

[Lord Jay of Ewelme]

My Lords, I am grateful to those who have spoken in this short debate. I am grateful to the Minister for his reply and for reciting the history, but I simply disagree on the substance of the issue. There is no question of these amendments seeking to countermand the result of the referendum; they are simply to reaffirm the role of Parliament and what I and others believe would unquestionably be the desire of the British people in the event of no deal—that Parliament should take its responsibility and consider these issues before the final decision is made.

There is perhaps a difference of nuance between some of us who have spoken on the likelihood of no deal. I think that David Davis spoke of no deal as a sort of an insurance policy, in case there was a no deal. But I do not think that there is any disagreement among those who have spoken tonight on the consequence of no deal, with the exception of the Minister, or of the need for Parliament to be consulted. I have no doubt that we shall return to this issue at Report, but meanwhile I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

I will not add to what has been so well said but I will put a question to the Minister. In a sense, we have covered three things in different groups about the powers given by secondary legislation. One is about the creation of new criminal offences, another is about the setting up of new public bodies, and another, which we return to here, is the ability to raise fees and charges. We do not want to hear, as we come to these amendments on Report, what the Government will do about them. I assume that they will meet us—I hope the whole way, but if not, half way. The Minister may not be able to say that tonight, but he has had notice of it, as we have brought it up before. The time for stonewalling and hearing is now gone. We need to know, before Report, where the Government are planning to move. I hope, therefore, that this evening he will be able to give us an assurance on that.

[Lord Callanan]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for this commendably brief debate at this not so late hour, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, for his commendably brief opening statements. I was delighted to see that he made his way up to Newcastle yesterday but, unsurprisingly, he forgot to ask me to meet him for a drink while he was there to speak to his 200 or so Brexit-disliking supporters.

[Lord Adonis]

Anti-Brexit supporters.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Lord is right—I am sorry.

I will try to give a relatively detailed explanation. For any policy to be complete, it must have a practical answer to the question of how it will be funded. Clause 12 and Schedule 4 are that answer here. I hasten to add that they are not the answer to all money matters in relation to Brexit. The withdrawal agreement and implementation Bill will provide the statutory underpinning for paying our negotiated financial settlement with the EU and any other financial matters related to the withdrawal agreement. Before I proceed, I make it completely clear that I have heard the principled and eloquently expressed concerns about the powers in Schedule 4 and their scrutiny, and we will look closely at this ahead of Report. I regret to say that I am unable to provide too much detail on that at the moment, but we will carefully consider this issue.

Clause 12 and Schedule 4 provide that all the money which might flow into and out of the Exchequer as a consequence of the Bill is made “proper”, in line with the rules governing public expenditure and as laid down between the Commons and the Treasury in the PAC concordat of 1932—which I assume even the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, was not around to take part in. Maybe his maiden aunts were around at the time to take part—who knows? These are obviously provisions relating to spending and charges on the public and were closely examined by the other place, which has privilege in financial matters, before the Bill reached us.

It is evident that the process of taking on new functions from the EU, and in the future running them, will cost money. Some of this will be public measures funded from general taxation—and, I hope, more efficiently than they were funded at the EU level. Some will be paid for by users of services to ensure that taxpayers, both corporate and individual, do not end up unfairly subsidising specialist provision. Where the line will fall is clearly a matter for debate in some cases, and I expect that as SIs come before Parliament for scrutiny, that question will, in a handful of cases, be relevant to the discussion. These provisions of the Bill, however, are key to ensuring that the rest of the Bill can be given real-world effect. I hope noble Lords will agree that without funding, the essential EU exit preparations enabled by the Bill could not be put into practice.

I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and the noble Lords, Lord Lisvane and Lord Tyler, for Amendment 348. The Government, as has been said at other times and in other places, are aware of the risks and concerns posed by any legislative sub-delegation to public authorities, but we remain convinced that conferring powers on public authorities other than Ministers to allow them to make provisions of a legislative character can be an appropriate course of action. I stress that, like any other form of sub-delegation under this Bill, any transfer of legislative power must be approved by both this House and the other place following a debate. It will not be possible for an SI to pass through this place, under the eyes of noble Lords, without a thorough and reasonable explanation of how any sub-delegation will be exercised in practice.

In this exceptional Bill, it is right that, although we must address all the issues that we discussed at Second Reading and which will arise under the Bill, Parliament also keeps a close and strict eye on all matters where any financial burden can be imposed on individuals and businesses. However, I remind noble Lords that this power is only available if the public authority is taking on a new function under the Bill and that the fees and charges must be in connection to that function. This is not a general power for the Government or any other public authority to raise moneys as they please.

The Government envisage sub-delegating this power in limited circumstances—for example, where Parliament has already granted to a public authority the power to set up its own rules for fees and charges of the type envisaged by this power, and, for good reasons, made it independent of the Government.

[Lord Tyler]

Will the Minister clarify one point? As I understand it, the affirmative procedure would apply to secondary legislation under Schedule 4 where there is a new fee or charge, but only the negative procedure would apply in subsequent regulations modifying those fees. That is an important qualification of the assurances he was giving to the Committee just now.

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Lord makes a good point. I will answer his question later. In line with the Bill’s aim to provide continuity, Parliament should have the option of approving the ability of authorities such as the Financial Conduct Authority and the Bank of England to independently make fees and charges for firms that will, after exit and under this Bill, fall under their regulatory remit.

Amendment 349 comes to the heart of the purpose of these powers and I thank the same noble and learned Lords for tabling it. This power is designed to ensure that those using specialist services transferred from the EU to the UK pay for them. This involves providing for fees and charges which, though not taxes in the common sense of the term, are at least tax-like. For the benefit of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, let me clarify what we mean by tax and tax-like charges in this context. Under the guidance laid down by the Treasury, although fees and charges for services that are set on a strict cost-recovery basis are not taxes, any fee or charge that goes further than direct cost recovery is likely to count as taxation or to be tax-like. This would be the case if it cross-subsidises to construct a progressive regime between large multinationals and small enterprises, if it is a compulsory levy in a regulated and surveilled sector, such as banking, or if it funds the broader functions of an organisation not directly part of the cost of providing a service, such as enforcement.

I hope we can all agree that, as part of providing continuity, this Bill should enable the Government to continue to fund public services in an appropriate manner. Because the Government have directly prohibited the increase or imposition of taxation, including tax-like charges of the type I have just described under other relevant powers in the Bill—particularly Clause 7(1)—we require the ability to do so under this power. To give an example, without this the Bank of England would not be able to bring trade repositories—a vital piece of financial market infrastructure currently supervised at the European level—within the scope of its levy-based funding regimes. This House approved the creation of those delegated regimes through the relevant legislation and I hope that, with the proper information before it, it will approve the relevant power in this Bill, subject to the use of the affirmative scrutiny procedure.

Having said all that, let me repeat what I said at the start. We are looking closely at this matter ahead of Report. We will try to see how we might provide appropriate reassurance to a number of the fairly reasonable concerns that have been raised by noble Lords. Even with that caveat, I recognise that noble Lords may still have concerns but I hope that I have given some insight into the Government’s position and satisfied the House of the honourability of the Government’s intentions. I hope that noble Lords will agree, therefore, to not press their amendments or object to Clause 12 standing part.

[Lord Adonis]

I congratulate the Minister on what was, I thought, an excellent response to the debate. After 10 days in Committee, he has learned from the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, how to charm the House and we have seen a new side to him that we were not aware of before: his conciliatory and emollient side. He may even, in due course, convert to the anti-Brexit cause at this rate of progress—maybe with another 10 days in Committee we would get there.

However, the Minister did the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, a great disservice. It is a well-known fact that the noble Lord drafted Magna Carta.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, I think the House wants the Minister to reply, so I was thinking that we are probably ready to end this debate.

I have just heard the first case against referendums, which is that a referendum made my country of Wales dry—and that argument was in support of them. It was certainly dry on a Sunday when I was growing up; and this is the ex-director of Alcohol Concern confessing this.

We have considerable sympathy with one part of these amendments: that the Government cannot be allowed to mark their own homework regarding the outcome of the withdrawal negotiations, be that on Gibraltar, which is mentioned in one of them, our future relations with the EU or the withdrawal deal itself. We discussed last week, as a number of noble Lords have said, the need for a meaningful vote by Parliament on the deal and indeed on what should happen if the deal fails to win approval by the British Parliament. We also considered then the desire of some for a future referendum on the terms of the deal.

As the Committee knows, and as the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Newby, have said, we see it as essential that there is a proper, meaningful vote on the terms of our withdrawal. We trust that the amendment we will table on Report will find favour in this House and later, we hope, at the other end. As to what should happen if that deal is rejected, surely that must be decided at the time, in the full knowledge of the situation, by the House of Commons. It could be, as in a later amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours, by extending the Article 50 period. It might be by revoking the Article 50 notification. It could indeed be by a referendum, though perhaps the wording would be a matter for then, rather than by amendment today. But the first judgment on the terms must surely be for this sovereign Parliament and, if it says no, it must then be Parliament that takes responsibility for what should be the next step. That means nothing is ruled out, which therefore means nothing is set in stone at this moment.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, this has again been an excellent debate and let me say at the outset that I note that support for the amendments comes from noble Lords on all sides of the House. I am not trying to imply that this is a partisan issue, but it is one of principle. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, and the noble Lords, Lord Newby, Lord Wigley and Lord Foulkes, who have tabled Amendments 226, 227BH and 357, will believe me when I say that I respect their positions. But this debate has been held many times before, and I therefore hope that noble Lords will forgive me if my argument sounds familiar. The referendum question, agreed by Parliament and presented to the people, was whether we wished to leave or remain in the European Union. Parliament attached no conditions or caveats to that vote.

It was clear in the campaign that a leave vote could lead to a range of outcomes and that not all of us advocating leave agreed about the way to do so. People knew this at the time, it was extensively debated and, in the biggest democratic mandate for a course of action ever directed at any UK Government, voters instructed the Government to leave the European Union.

[Baroness Altmann]

My Lords, it is that very term—“instructed” the Government or “instructed” Parliament—that is the subject of the amendments. I am not a fan of referenda, but it is clear that what the British people were led to believe, and what they voted for in the referendum, needs at least mostly to be delivered. The question is, if what they voted for—more money, no change to the borders, very easy trade deals; never mind that nobody mentioned ending of roaming and a potential Brexit surcharge on their flights—is not what is on offer, what should this Parliament do? It is questionable that this House should agree that the British people have instructed us to do whatever the Executive manage to negotiate with the EU, irrespective of whether it resembles even closely what the leave campaign told the British people it would achieve.

[Lord Callanan]

My Lords, the noble Baroness says that she is not in favour of referendums but is supporting a campaign to have another one. I think we all know what her agenda is: she did not like the result of the referendum, and she does not like the result of the policy. She is entitled to have her view, but we are entitled to disagree with her.

[Baroness Altmann]

I am not in favour of another referendum. I am in favour of parliamentary democracy and parliamentary sovereignty. The concern here is that Parliament seems to have handed over its power to the people by believing that there is an instruction from the people. If the Government were to say that there will be a free vote and a meaningful vote on whatever is negotiated, we would not need to go back to the people, because Parliament should be able to represent the national interest. I would prefer no final referendum or vote for the people, but if that is required it may be appropriate or prudent to leave it as an option.

[Lord Callanan]

I am not going to continue with this debate, but I think we know where she is coming from: she wants to reverse the result of the referendum, which she is entitled to believe, but I am entitled to disagree with her.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I will give the noble Lord another target. He seems to be an absolutist about referendums. What attitude did he take in 1975 to the two-thirds of the British people who voted to join on the terms that were put before them?

[Lord Callanan]

I am afraid that I was not old enough to vote in that referendum, but my father tells me that he voted to join a Common Market at the time and nobody ever asked him whether he wanted to join a European Union. But that is a separate argument.

We in the Government believe it to be our solemn duty to deliver on the instructions of the people.

[Lord Garel-Jones]

Will my noble friend give way?

[Lord Callanan]

I will make a little progress, if I may. I will take interventions later. I am on only the third paragraph of my speech.

I will not embarrass the Liberal Democrats further by quoting their leader, the right honourable Member for Twickenham, Vince Cable. The noble Lord, Lord Newby, says that that was years ago. It was not; it was in September 2016; it was only 18 months ago that he said that we should not have another referendum. Again, he is entitled to change his mind, but I hope that the Liberals will have the good grace to be a little embarrassed about it.

The Government never hesitated in accepting the verdict and, in line with the ruling of the Supreme Court, the Government than put the question of the power to notify Article 50 to Parliament. In passing it, this House and the other place voted with a clear majority to authorise the Prime Minister to trigger Article 50. The clue was in the name: it was the Article 50 notification of withdrawal Act, passed in the other place and in this House with large majorities. It was to give our notice to withdraw from the European Union, authorised by Parliament.

[Lord Garel-Jones]

Is my noble friend saying that he disagrees with the ruling of the Supreme Court that although it was indeed the case, Parliament did not authorise the outcome of those discussions? That is what the Supreme Court has ruled.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

Of course I do not disagree with the ruling of the Supreme Court, which is why we will have another vote later in the year and will bring in legislation to implement the result of our negotiation.

Noble Lords will of course recall that we had a debate on Report of that Bill on the options for a second referendum, an amendment that was defeated by 336 votes to 131—a telling result, perhaps, but not as telling as that of last year’s general election, where the parties committed to respecting the result of the referendum received more than 80% of the vote. Petitions have been brought to the other place for debate on this issue and have failed to garner the support of the House.

I say this: we were given a national mandate and Members must comply with the instructions for exit from the EU. I am sorry if noble Lords are shocked by those words, but they are not mine, they are the words of the former leader of the Liberal Democrats, Sir Nick Clegg. Perhaps for the first time in my life, I agree with Nick.

We hold not only that this Bill is not the vehicle for a second referendum but that the European Union Act 2011, put in place by the coalition Government to ensure that referendum would be held regarding future transfers of competence to the EU, is also not a mechanism that can be used to secure such a referendum by stealth. I know that we shall return to this point on another day.

This debate and the issue surrounding a second referendum is about more than the decision to leave the EU; it is about whether the public can trust us politicians. The British people can trust this Government to honour the referendum result. To do otherwise would undermine the decision of the British people, with worrying implications for the perceived legitimacy of our institutions.

[Viscount Hailsham]

Will my noble friend address the question put to him by the noble Lord, Lord Butler? Will the meaningful vote be such as to enable Parliament to vote to stay in the European Union if that is what Parliament wants?

[Lord Callanan]

I covered this point earlier. Parliament has passed the notification of withdrawal Act, to give our notice under Article 50 to withdraw from the European Union. That is the process that we are following; that is the process that was authorised by Parliament.

[Lord Newby]

Is that a yes or a no?

[Lord Callanan]

We have said that once we have negotiated the best deal available, we will bring it back to this Parliament and Parliament will vote on whether it wishes to accept that deal or not.

[Viscount Hailsham]

Can Parliament vote to stay in the European Union?

[Lord Callanan]

No, Parliament authorised us to leave the European Union under the notification of withdrawal Act. We effectively gave two years’ notice under the Article 50 process.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

If there is a vote in either House, particularly the House of Commons, which rejects whatever the Government put forward, what will the Government do?

[Lord Callanan]

In such circumstances—first, we hope that Parliament will not reject it and we will negotiate for the best possible outcome—that would be an instruction to move ahead without a deal.

[Noble Lords]

Ah!

[Lord Callanan]

Well, as I said, under the Article 50 process, we have notified the European Union that we are leaving.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Would the Government equally reject a take-note Motion in the House of Commons on that matter, even if it were carried on a free vote?

[Lord Callanan]

I am not an expert on the proceedings of the other place—I have never been a Member of the House of Commons—but of course the Government will listen to decisions by the House of Commons.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, this is a crucial moment. The whole issue here is whether it is a mere Motion or whether there is any legislative oomph—sorry, Hansard—behind the vote that Parliament is to have. Am I absolutely correct that the Minister has just said that even if it is a mere Motion, which is what the Government have offered so far, if the deal was rejected they would still take us out of the European Union at the cliff edge, without a deal?

[Lord Callanan]

We want a deal with the European Union. We have said that we will negotiate for the best possible deal and then we will put that to the House in a Motion. If Parliament approves it then we will bring legislation forward to implement the deal. That is what has been said many times in the other place as well.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Does my noble friend recall that both David Cameron and the leader of the Opposition wanted to implement Article 50 within days of the referendum result? All this argument suggesting that we have somehow precipitately moved into Article 50, and that the referendum did not give a clear instruction to both the government and opposition parties, is therefore simply froth.

[Lord Callanan]

I am not sure that I would use the word “froth”, but we have had a good debate about this and I am sure we will continue to do so.

Parliament authorised our notification of withdrawal in the Article 50 Bill with a clear majority. That position was supported in the general election when we and the Labour Party both said that we would implement the results of the referendum and, in the process, obtained over 80% of the vote. The Liberal Democrats, of course, said that they would not and got 7% of the vote.

[Baroness Kramer]

I have a question for clarification. Is it now correct for us to interpret, when the Prime Minister or any member of the Cabinet says that there will be a meaningful vote, that the vote will be between whatever has been agreed—good, bad or indifferent—and no deal, and that that is the only choice? Will the Minister explain how that becomes a meaningful vote in the context of the understanding of anybody in either House?

[Lord Callanan]

When we have negotiated the deal it will be an extremely significant moment. We will put that deal to both Houses in a Motion to approve or not, as the case may be. This House has already considered the issue of a second referendum and rejected it. The public rejected it in the last general election.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

Is the Minister seriously saying that it would be out of the question for the House of Commons to consider, in addition to whether the deal should be accepted or rejected, whether there should be an attempt to improve the deal or whether it should be put to the people? Are these options to be ruled out altogether? Is it Hobson’s choice? Is it this deal—good, indifferent or bad—or no deal and no question of an extension or trying to improve it, or putting it to the people? If that is the Minister’s position, it is almost as astonishing as the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, in his seventh intervention, some time ago, that the people would be outraged if they were given the final decision. I do not know if the Minister thinks that, but what he is saying about the meaningful vote is rather outrageous.

[Lord Callanan]

I am sorry that the noble Lord is outraged, but I am not going to stand here and try to instruct the House of Commons on what to do. It is quite capable of taking its own decisions. Many Members of this House have been Members of the House of Commons. I have not, but I am sure that if they want a vote on any subject they like they are quite capable of deciding the matter themselves.

Our focus now should be on making a success of Brexit, working to get the best deal possible, providing certainty and taking decisions on what kind of country the UK will be in the future. That is the clear instruction given to this Government in both the referendum and the general election. We believe that it is our duty to deliver upon it. A second referendum would pose a—

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

I have not heard my noble friend respond to Amendment 357, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock. If Spain retains a veto over any of the arrangements with Gibraltar, will the Government bring forward an amendment to the Bill on Report for this House to consider?

[Lord Callanan]

I suspect that we will still be in the process of negotiations at that stage. We have been clear that we are consulting closely with the Government of Gibraltar. Gibraltar is leaving the European Union at the same time as the UK is. We are negotiating for the UK and for Gibraltar, in close consultation with its Government. We recently had a ministerial meeting with them, chaired by my honourable friend Robin Walker, and we are keeping them closely informed about the process of the negotiation.

A second referendum would pose a serious risk of undermining our ongoing negotiating position. Worse still, it would prolong the period of uncertainty for businesses and citizens in the UK and EU. These are the unacceptable costs of what my noble friend referred to as a neverendum. In those circumstances, I urge the noble Lords to withdraw or to not move their amendments.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, the House has listened to the Minister with amazement over the last 20 minutes. We have had a repeat of the statement made last week, which the noble Lord, Lord Butler, succeeded in highlighting. If we end this process with no deal, there will be no meaningful vote for Parliament, because the only alternative to no deal is to leave on a no-deal basis. That is why there needs to be a safety net of referring the question back to the people. I get the impression that the Government believe that the referendum has given them the right to ignore the will of Parliament and override it by refusing such a meaningful vote. We will certainly come back to that.

There are two clear reasons why a confirmatory referendum should not be denied. The principle has been conceded in the context of triggering the first referendum and, as the noble Lord, Lord Newby, said, only a second referendum could gainsay that. Secondly, we are in the invidious position that Parliament would be asked to overturn the view of the people. That is obviously fraught with difficulties for anybody who is a democrat. Taking that together with the question of a meaningful vote for Parliament, I believe we have to provide the House of Commons with the hook necessary for it to return to this issue after we have finished with the Bill. When there is an opportunity to vote an amendment into this Bill on Report, I hope that we will give Members of Parliament the opportunity to consider a confirmatory referendum, if that appears to them to be the best way forward. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 147A, to which I have added my name. The world of sport, as the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, mentioned, is a complicated one that fits into all the other strands here. He spoke about Cheltenham most passionately. I live in the village of Lambourn, which has a mass exodus to Cheltenham. However, round it are other things that are not, say, France and Ireland. When you come to the show-jumping world, there are other countries coming there, with other workers, and you have travel from other nations such as Germany and Holland. It gets more complicated the more you look at it. The employment rights of professional sportsmen get more and more complicated and tap into the other things we have spoken about. It comes into the creative industries. All of these come across.

Are you going to stop the expertise of Parliament getting into this? Government departments and Ministers tend to be very bad at picking up on these concerns—and that is effectively the function of Parliament. How many of us here spend our entire lives saying, “You hadn’t thought of that. You haven’t spoken about that”? It is virtually all we do. Civil servants do not have a limitless supply of crystal balls, and neither do party hacks backing up the machine of government. Unless Parliament gets in and we have comprehensive agreements, when we do something this complicated we are going to make mistakes. Sport is just one example. The creative industries is another. It was not that the list was long for this group; it was not long enough. There must be a way of getting this information in. The way to do that is to aim to get Members of both Houses of Parliament to get through, because there is nothing else that can start to do it.

The main amendment here—and those supporting it—point us this way, and unless the Minister can make some response that tells us how that is going to happen, we are going to have major problems. I hope this will be the first and last time I have to speak on this Bill—but if the Minister does not give a proper answer I will be back.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, there is a theme that recurs in many of our debates on the Bill; and perhaps in this debate most of all. I think the noble Lord, Lord Addington, expressed the view that this Government somehow do not respect Parliament, do not understand its place in the constitution and are somehow seeking to work around it or sideline it. With respect, I hope to demonstrate that this suggestion is unfounded. Let me be clear and emphatic. Given Parliament’s pre-eminent position in our constitution, it is not possible for the Government to disregard it or work around it—and nor, of course, would it be desirable for them to seek to do so.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Why, therefore, did Gina Miller have to take the Government to the High Court?

[Lord Callanan]

That is a separate issue—but we respected the outcome and the Article 50 Bill was, of course, approved by Parliament.

The need for parliamentary assent to executive action is woven into our constitution at every juncture, and rightly so. Of course, on occasion Parliament puts a question to the electorate directly for their views. The debate we are having today—and had on previous days—is of course the result of one of those occasions. In the course of the debates on this Bill, it has been asserted that it has profound constitutional implications, and so it does. However, I am wary of endorsing some of the language that has been used with regard to the delegated powers in this Bill.

If noble Lords have some time to take a look at the draft statutory instruments that we published last week, they will perhaps see what I mean when I say that there is a profound disconnect between the picture painted at times in this House of the types of powers we are taking and the actual uses to which we propose to put those powers. I urge noble Lords to look at these draft instruments on the GOV.UK website.

The group of amendments we have been debating so far today and the group to which we will turn next do of course raise some profound constitutional questions. They require us to ask ourselves who can act on the international plane on behalf of the UK, and how the mechanisms of control and accountability operate for the conduct of such action. They pose the question of if and how there should be a role for the courts in examining the conduct of those negotiations. They also pose questions about the circumstances—if any—in which it would be appropriate for Parliament to consider action that goes against a decision made in a referendum.

Our debate here today has, understandably, touched on a number of different areas. However, I now wish to address the core theme of the amendments in this group: that it is for the legislature to set the mandate for the negotiations that the Government are currently undertaking with the EU. It was right that the electorate had the opportunity to make its voice heard at the last election, and the result of that democratic exercise was the return of the Government in their current form, to pursue their stated objective of a deep and special partnership with the EU.

Most of the amendments in this group are attached to Amendment 142, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Monks, and they raise important and valid issues in the context of our future relationship with the EU. I reassure noble Lords that I will revisit these issues later in my response. However, as a point of principle, it is not beneficial to enter into a negotiation with a number of domestic constraints on exactly what we can negotiate. Flexibility is necessary for a successful negotiated outcome.

The challenge now is to make a success of our exit and get the best deal possible for the UK, so that this House, the other place, and our national conversation more broadly can turn to discussing and taking decisions on what kind of country we wish to be after we have concluded our negotiations with the EU. After exit, and once we have negotiated the new deep and special partnership, great opportunities for new decisions will open up in this Parliament and in the devolved legislatures.

In case it appears that I am trying to exclude the role of Parliament in shaping our negotiating objectives, I once again reassure the Committee that I am doing nothing of the sort. Parliament does not need to go beyond our settled constitutional boundaries and set mandates in order to exert profound influence over the conduct of the negotiations. We take incredibly seriously our need to keep Parliament apprised of the Government’s negotiating intentions. That is for the purpose not just of transmitting information but of inviting scrutiny and allowing Parliament and its committees to take informed views. Government positions are created, tested and refined in the light of continual challenge from this Parliament. We are mindful always of the Government’s ultimate accountability to Parliament, and in this particular circumstance we are mindful, too, that we will be seeking Parliament’s approval of the agreements that are currently under negotiation.

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, does the Minister not see a profound contradiction in his remarks? He has praised the role and significance of Parliament—until it actually chooses to express a view. Is it not the whole purpose of Parliament to express views? My noble friend is seeking to codify those views into a remit. The Minister’s response is that that is inappropriate because Parliament would then be taking on the responsibility that he wants to arrogate entirely to himself as a Minister.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

Of course Parliament should express its view—but there are a number of ways in which it can do so.

Given that the next grouping on the Order Paper covers approval of the withdrawal agreement, I shall not prejudge that discussion by going into further detail here. That is part of the reason why we have sought to be as transparent as we can while protecting our negotiating position. Noble Lords will, I hope, acknowledge that this is a difficult balance to strike. But they will also note the information contained in speeches by the Prime Minister and other Ministers, in the large number of papers the Government have now published, ranging from White Papers to the raft of position papers on various areas, and in the papers for the negotiations themselves. Most recently, of course, we have also just published our draft text for the implementation period.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem]

Access to information does not constitute the proper exercise of sovereignty.

[Lord Callanan]

Having access to that information helps to inform the views of parliamentarians for their many speeches and committee appearances. On top of these publications, and the legislation we have introduced, the Government have further sought to facilitate scrutiny through the frequent making of oral Statements, the timetabling of debates in both Houses in various forms, and through appearing frequently at a range of Select Committees. Of course, we have not covered every subject or satisfied every member of every committee with our answers to every question, but noble Lords should be in no doubt that there has been more parliamentary scrutiny of EU exit than there can have been of anything else in the history of our modern committee system. That is right and proper, and we support it as well as we can. In order to pay tribute to the wide-ranging debate, I hope noble Lords will be patient as I seek to set out, relatively briefly, the Government’s position on these various issues, many of which will be key parts of the wider negotiations on the future economic partnership.

First, on the mutual recognition of professional qualifications, raised in Amendment 144, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, the Government have already stated that they will seek to agree a continued system of mutual recognition as part of the future economic partnership. This system will form part of the wider negotiations underpinning trade in services. The joint report from the first phase already includes provisions on the recognition of professional qualifications which apply to UK nationals already resident in the EU at the specified date and, of course, EU nationals in the UK on that date. Those provisions will be included in the withdrawal agreement to provide clarity and security to the individuals affected.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Adonis]

Will the Minister answer the crucial point made by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan: will there be free movement of horses around the European Union after Brexit?

[Lord Callanan]

I am sure that it will be at the forefront of our negotiation priorities, given the close interest that many noble Lords have taken in this vital national issue.

In response to Amendment 145, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, I reiterate that this Government have committed to maintaining high standards of consumer protection, delivering the stability that consumers need to continue to make purchases and a level playing field in trade with the EU—at the very seminar to which she referred, I believe that my ministerial colleague, Robin Walker, was present to set out the Government’s position. I myself have met Which? in Bristol on a number of occasions, and we will continue to engage with consumer organisations. We start from a strong position of long-standing co-operation on the effective enforcement of consumer protection laws, and it is essential that the UK through this Bill is able to ensure that UK consumer protections continue uninterrupted at the point we exit the European Union.

Amendment 147, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, is rightly concerned with food standards. The UK has world-leading standards of food safety and quality backed up by a rigorous legislative framework. The Bill will ensure that we are able to maintain those high standards once the UK leaves the European Union. The Government are proud of our high standards of food safety, and these will not be watered down when we leave the EU. Maintaining safety and public confidence in the food we all eat is a high priority for the Government, and any future trade deal must work for UK farmers, businesses and consumers.

A number of EU agencies, such as the European Food Safety Authority referred to in Amendment 184 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, have been established to support EU member states and their citizens. May I say how pleased I am to see the noble Lord in his place today? We missed him very much in our debates on Monday evening, with his great insights on our issues.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Callanan]

I may regret that.

[Lord Adonis]

I am not sure I missed the noble Lord quite so much.

[Lord Callanan]

Touché, as they say.

We are committed to exploring with the EU the terms on which the UK could remain part of EU agencies. However, our future relationship with the EU and arrangements with regards to agencies such as the food safety authority are still to be determined and are the subject of ongoing negotiations. I would give the noble Lord the same response to his comments on the RASFF system.

[Lord Rooker]

Is it possible to have an answer to the only question that I asked? Are we going to stay a member of the rapid alert food and feed system? If we do not, we are in real trouble. I cannot see the arrangements for that—nobody ever talks about it—but it is pretty crucial. Are we going to stay in that system?

[Lord Callanan]

I cannot give an absolute guarantee that we will; it is a matter for the negotiations. However, I can certainly tell the noble Lord that we see the value of it, and it is one of the many EU agencies and systems that we will seek to continue to collaborate with.

In response to Amendment 146, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, whose illness I was sorry to hear about, and Amendment 147, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, I can say that the Government want to seek the best possible outcome for the UK’s creative industries following the negotiations with the EU. In response to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, we are considering all our options for participation in future EU funding programmes, including the Creative Europe programme.

As the Prime Minister has already made clear, the UK will not be part of the EU’s digital single market, which will continue to develop after our withdrawal from the EU. This is a fast-evolving, innovative sector in which the UK is a world leader.

In response to Amendment 147C, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, who has yet again spoken very effectively on this topic, as she did on Monday evening, the Government fully recognise the central role that transport will play in supporting our new trading relationships as we leave the EU. As I set out in my response on Monday, our ambition for transport is to maintain and develop the current levels of transport connectivity between the UK and the EU to underpin our future trading relationship.

The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, asked me about aviation agreements. She is of course correct to say that all worldwide aviation agreements are concluded on a bilateral basis, as are most of our existing aviation agreements. We benefit from a number of these as part of the single sky policy through our membership of the EU and we are currently discussing replacing those agreements with the countries concerned.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton]

Listening to the Minister, it occurs to me that this group of amendments endorses almost precisely what he is saying, so are the Government going to accept them?

[Lord Callanan]

I think I have made clear that we are not going to accept them because we do not want our negotiating position to be constrained by them. We want to be as flexible as possible in the negotiations.

As I was saying, the UK will also seek to continue to collaborate with EU and international agencies to maintain critical safety and regulatory arrangements.

Finally, I turn to Amendment 227BF, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. Ministers and officials recognise that vehicle type approval can be a key enabler in such international trade and that the automotive industry in the UK and across the EU wants to be able to plan for future production and development with certainty at the earliest possible stage.

[Lord Patten of Barnes (Con)]

I thank the Minister for his comprehensive reply, but could he comment on a point made by my noble friend Lord Moynihan on competition policy and state aid? Will he remind the House what the Prime Minister said in the Mansion House speech about the Government’s attitude to competition policy and state aid? As I recall it, she said that we want to stay in that domain of policy. Can the Minister confirm that from the Dispatch Box today?

[Lord Callanan]

The Prime Minister did indeed refer to these important level playing field issues and said that we do not want to see a significant diminution of standards in these areas.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

If I recall, the Prime Minister promised binding commitments in the area of state aid and competition, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Patten, for reminding me of that element of the speech. The Minister tells us that he does not want to be constrained in the negotiations, but has not the Prime Minister already constrained the negotiations by accepting binding commitments in the area of competition law and by using the phrase “strong commitments”—apparently she was banned from saying “binding commitments”—with regard to regulatory alignment?

[Lord Callanan]

I will allow the Prime Minister’s words to speak for themselves.

It is in the interests of consumers and industry in both the UK and the EU to maintain the freest and most frictionless trade possible in vehicles and automotive products after exit.

I apologise that have I spoken at length about issues of constitutional significance, but—

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, the Minister seems to be reaching the end of his remarks. In replying to matters raised on the individual areas of transport, sport and so on, he has simply ignored the fact that most of those who spoke to these areas talked about the need for rapid movement of people, rapid access and no impediment to such movements. Could he perhaps say something about that? At the moment, the Government seem to have a blank sheet in front of them on that. We have not been told a single thing about the immigration rules that will apply after 29 March 2019—not one word has been said other than that it is going to take a lot longer for the Government to consult everyone before they can tell us what they are doing. All the areas that have been referred to in the debate this morning involve the movement of people. Will the Minister please try to fill that out a little?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

I fear that I will disappoint the noble Lord yet again. It is of course a vital subject. We are currently formulating our proposals. It will of course be a matter for negotiation, but the Home Office will, I believe, set out in a White Paper later this year how a future immigration system might work.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

I am most grateful to my noble friend. I have heard every word of this debate and have refrained from taking part because the case was being made so splendidly by everybody who was. Quite honestly, I say with due respect to my noble friend, appreciating the difficulty of his task, that all he has presented to the House is a stone wall. Frankly, this is not good enough.

[Lord Callanan]

I can only apologise for disappointing my noble friend. Of course, we take very different views on the issue of our EU withdrawal, so perhaps he will forgive me on this occasion for not agreeing with him.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for giving way. Can he confirm that he said that the Government want to remain flexible about belonging to the rapid response and alert system which governs public health, public food safety and feed standards? It would seem to me that that is not something that the country or Parliament would think was an issue one could be flexible about. We need to be in that arrangement, as the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, so vividly explained.

[Lord Callanan]

I apologise to the noble Baroness, but I do not think I used the word “flexible” in respect of that agency. I said that the agency does some valuable work, as do a number of other EU agencies, and that is one matter that we need to discuss.

[Lord Rooker]

Will the Minister accept that it is not an agency? Get briefed. Have a look at the annual report of RASFF. It is a 24/7 system that is incredibly simple. That is why it works. We are either in it to give notifications or to receive notifications. You cannot be half in and half out. I should have thought this was non-negotiable, to be honest.

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Lord is right: it is not an agency. I was referring to the food safety agency. As I have said, the system, or whatever we want to call it, does good work, we value our participation in it and it is one of the things that we will want to raise as an urgent priority in the negotiation, as will be our participation in a number of agencies mentioned by the Prime Minister.

I am sure that noble Lords will return to this debate at Report, and I am more than willing to engage closely with any noble Lords who wish to talk about these issues in the interim. I hope—I suspect that I have not—that I have helped to allay some of noble Lords’ concerns in this debate and that the noble Lords will feel able to withdraw their amendments.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Callanan Excerpts

Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Patten of Barnes (Con)]

I invite the Minister to explain to my noble friend—who I have known for years and like very much—the difference between parliamentary sovereignty and plebiscitary democracy. It is quite a fundamental difference in our constitution.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

If my noble friend will forgive me, I will concentrate on the amendments before us and leave this existential debate for my two noble friends on the Back Benches to conduct among themselves.

The approval of the UK’s final deal with the EU has already been the focus of a great deal of sustained debate during the passage of both the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act and this Bill. The Government have committed to hold a vote on the final deal in Parliament as soon as possible after the negotiations have concluded. Let me say, in direct response to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and the noble Baroness, Lady McDonagh, that this vote will take the form of a resolution in both Houses of Parliament and will cover both the withdrawal agreement and the terms of our future relationship. The Government will not implement any parts of the withdrawal agreement until after this vote has taken place.

As we have repeatedly made clear, we fully expect, intend and will make every effort that this vote will take place before the European Parliament votes. However, I hope noble Lords will understand that we do not control the EU’s timeframe for approving the withdrawal agreement and therefore cannot make any statutory assurances where it is concerned. This would be the case with Amendment 150 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, Amendment 151 tabled by my noble friend Lord Cormack and Amendment 216 tabled by my noble friend Lord Hailsham.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

A much wiser and older head than me, Merlyn Rees, once told me that, when listening to a Minister’s replies, I should forget everything before the “but”; I include in that everything before the “however”. What follows the “however” gives the Government executive powers to take a course of action completely opposite to the amendments that say that a vote should be done before the European Parliament votes. Of course the Government do not control the timetable for the European Parliament, but they control the timetable for this Parliament. We are asking for the vote to be given substance and time—rather than being a theoretical meaningful vote—as well as an assurance that the decision will be taken by this Parliament before we have to sit and watch the European Parliament voting on the deal. Can the Minister address that issue and explain to us why it is impossible to do that simple thing?

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

Let us take it one step at a time.

[Lord Callanan]

In response to the noble Viscount’s final question, no, there will be no vote in national parliaments on this matter: it is a delegated function to the EU. Only a qualified majority vote in the European Council is required, and then a vote in the European Parliament. I can go no further in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Reid, than to repeat my statement that we expect and intend the vote to take place before the vote in the European Parliament.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

Yes, I fear the noble Lord is wrong about that. I think he is referring to the final trade agreement, which we hope will be a mixed agreement and will therefore need approval in national parliaments. The Article 50 process does not require approval in national parliaments.

[Lord Cormack]

I respectfully suggest that my noble friend is wrong in saying that it is impossible to guarantee a vote in our national Parliament before one in the European Parliament. If we are taking back control, surely in this of all Bills we can give that assurance.

[Lord Callanan]

I can give him the assurance that we intend, we expect, we hope and we want the vote in this Parliament to take place before the European Parliament votes, but we do not know at what stage the European Parliament will vote: it may be, to quote a hypothetical circumstance, that this Parliament will be in recess and that the European Parliament will have a vote immediately thereafter. However, I do not know; I am just saying when we want it to take place and we expect and intend it to do so.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, the Minister is making pretty heavy weather of this. Has he not noticed that Monsieur Barnier has said that he believes the negotiations need to be completed by October, so as to give the European Parliament time for its processes, which include committee processes and which will thus have six months to take place? Instead of beating about the bush, can he not just say that we are going to do it first?

[Lord Callanan]

I thank the noble Lord for telling me about the processes of the European Parliament, but I was a Member of it for 15 years and I am aware of the processes very well. We have, however, made clear that it is our objective to reach an agreement with the EU by October 2018. This objective is shared by the EU and is one which we consider we are on course to deliver. We expect, therefore, that the vote will take place substantially before exit day and ahead of the deadline in Amendment 196 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, and Amendment 213 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. To insert statutory deadlines into this process, however, would serve no purpose except to weaken our negotiating position, because while an early deal is highly desirable we must balance that with a recognition of the need to achieve the best possible deal.

The decision to hold a referendum was put to the electorate at the 2015 general election—

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, if the Minister is not prepared to give any ground on the timescale in terms of the amount of time we shall have to debate it, will he tell the Committee what he thinks is the latest possible date the Government could submit the treaty?

[Lord Callanan]

I do not want to get into precise timings like that: we have said that we hope to have an agreement concluded by October 2018, which accords with the position set out by Monsieur Barnier. That is the timetable that we are working to. If we achieve that timetable, there should be plenty of time for a vote in this House and in another place, followed by the vote in the European Parliament.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I am a little confused. Clause 9, as amended in the Commons, refers to Parliament approving the final terms of withdrawal. If I understand the noble Lord correctly, he has suggested that there will be an interim agreement by the end of this year, before we leave, but the final agreement, about our future relationship, et cetera, will come a good deal later. Will he explain why these two are compatible?

[Lord Callanan]

If the noble Lord will allow me to make some progress I will come on to the issues of Clause 9 later.

The decision to hold a referendum was endorsed by Parliament, which then consented to the Government acting on the outcome of that referendum through the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act. More than 80% of voters in the 2017 election supported manifestos committed to delivering on that referendum result.

I say this only to underline to noble Lords that amendments which could be perceived as a means to delay or disregard that result carry with them their own risks to people’s faith in their democracy and its institutions. Many noble Lords, including the most respected and convinced of erstwhile supporters of the UK remaining in the EU, said at Second Reading that the Bill is not the parliamentary vehicle to seek to provide for that. The Government have received a clear instruction from the British people. On a turnout higher than at any general election since 1992, 17.4 million people voted to leave the European Union—more than the 13.7 million who voted Conservative at the 2017 general election; more than the 11.3 million who voted Conservative in 2015; more even than the 13.5 million who voted Labour at the 1997 general election, which delivered the party opposite a significant majority in the other place, of which many noble Lords were distinguished members.

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

My noble friend speaks of a clear instruction from the British people in the referendum but the Bill which was introduced for a referendum, and then debated and voted on in this House, was very clearly for an advisory referendum. It was in no sense an instruction.

[Lord Callanan]

That point has been addressed in exchanges earlier. The then Government made a clear commitment, in a leaflet delivered to every household in the country, that the result of the referendum would be respected. The people voted to leave the EU and the Government have committed to deliver on their instructions. Therefore, we will not seek to remain a member of the EU, as Amendment 190 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, seeks to achieve. I am sure he will not be surprised to hear me say this.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Before the Minister leaves that point, in the event of there being a no-deal Brexit, the Government would have to come back to Parliament to put it before MPs and this Chamber. In the event of MPs refusing to endorse that, will he confirm that the status quo ante will prevail and we would remain part of a united Europe?

[Lord Callanan]

No, I will not endorse that. I will come on to the circumstances in a minute.

Let me say directly to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, that while there are many possible outcomes for our future relationship, remaining in the EU is clearly not one which can be reconciled with the decision taken in the referendum.

[Lord Higgins]

But there was no decision taken; it was an advisory referendum. My noble friend refers to a leaflet distributed in the course of the referendum. If so, it was totally incompatible with what this House agreed.

[Lord Callanan]

My noble friend and I will just have to disagree on this one.

We have also made our position clear that the notice given by the Prime Minister in accordance with Article 50, and which was approved by both Houses of Parliament, will not be revoked. It will not be extended as Amendment 199 tabled by my noble friend Lord Cormack and Amendment 216 tabled by my noble friend Lord Hailsham seek to do.

[Lord Adonis]

If the Minister will forgive me, he is not in any position to make that clear because that is a decision which the House of Commons will take. It is not for the Government to say that there will be no rescinding of the notice under Article 50. If the House of Commons votes to rescind the notice under Article 50, that notice will be revoked. We are a parliamentary democracy.

[Lord Callanan]

The Government’s position is clear that Article 50 will not be revoked. We will discuss the question—

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, with everything he says my noble friend is repudiating the authority and position of Parliament, and asserting the supremacy of the Executive. That is inimical to parliamentary democracy.

[Lord Callanan]

I think I am asserting the supremacy of the people who voted in a referendum.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

My Lords, we will discuss the appropriateness of a second referendum later today—

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

The Minister has just, perhaps inadvertently, said something of profound constitutional consequence. Is he asserting from that Dispatch Box that parliamentary representative democracy is no longer sovereign if there is a plebiscite? This is an extremely important constitutional issue and he has just made that assertion. Would he like to withdraw the assertion or to reassert that parliamentary democracy is no longer sovereign?

[Lord Callanan]

I am asserting that Parliament voted to hold a referendum. The referendum took place, and we all know the result. We believe that that referendum should be respected. I am sorry that noble Lords do not agree with me, but that is the Government’s position.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

Am I not right in saying that the Government have taken power to extend the exit day beyond the date in the Article 50 notice? That is contained in Clause 14(4). Why did they take that power if they were determined, as the Minister is saying, never to change the date?

[Lord Callanan]

We are leaving the European Union on 29 March next year in accordance with the Article 50 notification and we have made it very clear countless times. The Prime Minister has made it clear that the Article 50 notification will not be revoked.

[Lord Taverne (LD)]

Is the Minister not contradicting the statement by the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union that the essence of a democracy is that it can change its mind?

[Lord Callanan]

Of course Parliament is allowed to change its mind. It does so on many occasions and no doubt will do so in future on other issues.

It is our view that the question of whether to leave and the process of approving how we leave have been decided. Parliament approved the referendum and has signalled its approval to every step the Government have taken since July 2016. Furthermore the people authorised the Government’s negotiating position as a result of the election last year. Lastly, we have made a solemn promise to seek approval, which I am confident will be granted, from Parliament of the outcome of those negotiations.

I stress that I understand many noble Lords’ deeply and honestly held conviction that the UK should not leave the EU. That has become very clear to me throughout the progress of the Bill, but this is a Bill to provide maximum legal certainty upon exit. I do not think it would be in the interests of either the EU or the UK to open the door to an ever-continuing negotiation process with no certainty that the UK will ever reach a new settled relationship with the EU. I do not believe that that is what the noble Lord intends, but that is what is being risked. The terms of the vote on the final deal are clear: to accept the terms of the agreement or to move forward without a deal. This is fully in line with the terms on which the European Parliament will be voting: a yes or no vote.

Amendments 196 and 213 are unnecessary because we have already made a strong commitment to hold this vote as soon as possible after the negotiations have concluded.

[Lord Adonis]

How does the Minister intend to prevent the House of Commons considering the option of remaining in the European Union? How does he intend procedurally to prevent it, given that he has said that that is not going to be an option?

[Lord Callanan]

I do not control the proceedings of the House of Commons. I can only set out the Government’s position on this matter.

The strength of that commitment and the political and public expectation that accompanies it mean that the Government could not conceivably renege on that commitment.

[Lord Patten of Barnes]

Perhaps I can help. This is becoming a rather complicated discussion and some of us are trying very hard to follow what the Minister is saying. Perhaps we are not being as intelligent as we should be. In the phrase “a meaningful vote”, what does the word “meaningful” mean?

[Lord Callanan]

We have never used the term “a meaningful vote”. We recognise clearly the desirability of maximising as much as possible the time between negotiations concluding and a deal coming into force. Knowing the terms of a deal as early as possible is good for business and the public in being able to prepare.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Pursuant to the earlier question, perhaps I have completely misunderstood what the Prime Minister said, but my understanding was that she promised a meaningful vote. Therefore, it would help if the Minister in summing up the debate we have just had would say what “a meaningful vote” means.

[Lord Callanan]

I have said on a number of occasions that we will put the outcome of the negotiations to a vote in this House and in the other place and of course we will respect the outcome of that vote.

[Lord Bilimoria]

I think there is huge confusion here about the Government wanting to implement the “will of the people”. I do not think the British people who voted to leave said we should leave on any basis. This is not just about rejecting a no deal but about rejecting a bad deal. Parliament will not be doing the people a service if we just accept a bad deal when faced with the option of crashing out with no deal or accepting the Government’s deal. The public would never accept that, and we as Parliament should not accept it either.

[Lord Callanan]

We do not intend to put a bad deal to the vote. As we have said, we want to negotiate the best possible deal that we can. Knowing the terms of a deal as early as possible is good for business and the public, in terms of being able to prepare. It gives confidence and certainty.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (Con)]

When my noble friend, in summing up, clarifies his understanding of “meaningful”, will he tell the Committee whether he believes that a vote after the European Parliament has voted would constitute a meaningful vote?

[Lord Callanan]

Perhaps the noble Baroness was not listening to what I said earlier. We fully intend the vote to take place before the European Parliament votes.

As I have said, I remain convinced that we will achieve a deal in the interests of all the nations and people in the UK and that this Parliament will approve it. After Parliament supports the resolution to proceed with the withdrawal agreement and the terms for our future relationship, the Government will bring forward a withdrawal agreement and implementation Bill. That Bill was announced on 13 November 2017 by the Secretary of State and followed on 13 December 2017 by a Written Ministerial Statement committing the Government not to implement any parts of the withdrawal agreement until this vote on the final deal takes place. I hope it is clear how the withdrawal agreement will be implemented and that Parliament will have ample opportunity to scrutinise it before it is given effect in our law.

I reassure noble Lords that the withdrawal agreement itself will be subject to the provisions of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 before ratification, in addition to the vote on the final deal that we have already promised and the scrutiny of the implementing legislation. There will therefore be ample opportunity to scrutinise the agreement and its implementation.

I know that many noble Lords have clear concerns about Clause 9 as it is currently drafted—I listened very carefully to the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane. The Government are listening very carefully to the debate on these concerns and we will take them away to see whether anything can be done ahead of Report to address them.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

What is the point of leaving in this Bill the power to make regulations which can now only be brought into effect once the withdrawal agreement Bill has been passed? Should we not just remove those provisions now and ensure that any provisions included in the withdrawal agreement Bill meet the concerns that the Minister has said he would like to meet?

[Lord Callanan]

If I can make a little more progress talking about Clause 9, I think the noble Lord will find that his question has been answered.

However, let me ensure that my previous statement is not taken as more significant than it is—

[A noble Lord]

Is it meaningful?

[Lord Callanan]

Everything I say is meaningful. Although we can look again at elements of the power, we will not be removing it from the Bill in its entirety, as Amendment 194, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, who I am glad to see is still with us, would have it.

It is prudent to keep Clause 9 as part of this Bill. We do not yet know the shape or the outcome of future negotiations. It is crucial that we have the necessary legislative mechanisms available to us to fully implement the withdrawal agreement in time for exit day. There may well be a number of more technical separation issues which will need to be legislated for, depending on the shape of the final agreement. It is long established that where legislation is intended to make smaller, more detailed changes, secondary legislation can be an appropriate vehicle. It is also not uncommon for the principles of an international agreement to be implemented through secondary legislation.

Let me give an example. The Nuclear Installations (Liability for Damage) Order 2016 implements the 2004 protocol to the Convention on Third Party Liability in the Field of Nuclear Energy—a matter with which I am sure noble Lords are fully familiar.

To be clear, however, Clause 9 is not intended to implement major elements of the withdrawal agreement. I understand that this distinction might seem a little abstract so I will demonstrate with a few more illustrative examples, although with the caveat that we cannot know for certain until the withdrawal agreement has been finalised. Clause 9 may be required, for example, to legislate for the position of ongoing administrative proceedings when we leave the EU. This is a broad basket of more technical issues such as proceedings on competition and antitrust under regulation 1/2003 or procedures on the concentration of undertakings/mergers under regulation 139/2004. These are quite complex, technical issues that do not need to be put into any Bill but must be legislated for.

Another area that Clause 9 could be used for relates to the privileges and immunities afforded by the UK to the EU, its institutions, bodies and staff post exit. These are a standard feature of international law and are generally considered necessary for the proper functioning of international organisations. Privileges and immunities for the EU are currently implemented under protocol 7 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. After exit, the EU will continue to require privileges and immunities to cover any functions that it has during the implementation period or for winding down its existing operations, and our agreement on privileges and immunities will need to be implemented in domestic legislation. If noble Lords would like further detail, I encourage them to consult the Hansard record of Committee in the other place where further details were offered on potential examples.

I do not need to remind noble Lords, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady McDonagh, that the amendment to Clause 9 that was approved in the other place means that the clause can be used only subject to the prior enactment of a statute by Parliament approving the final terms of the withdrawal of the UK from the EU. That is an exceptional check on the power, and of course we stand by that.

I have been left in no doubt of the strength of feeling in the House about Clause 9. As with other contentious areas of the Bill, I look forward to meetings and discussions with noble Lords to see what can be done ahead of Report. With that in mind, I hope noble Lords will not pursue their amendments.

[Viscount Waverley]

The Minister referred to the CRaG procedure. He may not be aware that the House of Commons put out an Explanatory Note on many of the issues that we are discussing today. I would like to ask his opinion on a line from it:

“Either House could also use the CRAG procedure to object to ratification of the agreement, and in the case of the Commons, indefinitely block it”.


Would he care to comment?

[Lord Callanan]

If the noble Viscount will forgive me, I have not read the details of that. I am sure his quote is accurate but I would like to read the whole thing before I comment on it in detail.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has just said, as he has done several times in Committee, that, first, the Government reject all the amendments but, secondly, they are going to think about it. The clock is ticking and we are not now that far from Report. Saying “I’m going to think about it” may give some noble Lords false hopes that the Minister has it in mind to do something about it. I suggest that in this case, and certainly as we come to future groups, if the Minister seriously has it in mind to produce a government amendment on Report, he says so in terms. Simply saying time after time “We reject this but we’re going to think about it” does the House a disservice because, having listened to most of the Minister’s speeches on the Bill, I have the feeling that thinking about it does not appear to be a prelude in the Minister’s mind to any action whatever.

[Lord Callanan]

I and other Ministers have indicated in response to other groupings of amendments where we are definitely going to be bringing back further amendments on Report. However, we have also made it clear, as I hope many noble Lords in the House today will agree, that we are having further discussions with a number of people who have raised valid concerns to see how those concerns may be addressed. While on many occasions we do not want to go as far as some of the amendments, there may be some reassurances that we can give or modifications that we can suggest. I am not going to give any definite commitments at this stage—that is not how this process works—but we are looking at all the issues and, as I have said on numerous occasions, we will do what we can to take into account the concerns of the House.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, the Minister has got me famously confused now. He said, in a very welcome way just now, that the Government accept that the amendment voted for in the Commons—Amendment 7—provides for the outcome to be subject to a statutory procedure. A little time ago, he said that it was the Prime Minister’s intention to submit the deal to both Houses without a statutory procedure but as a simple resolution. Which comes first, and how do the two relate to each other?

[Lord Callanan]

There are two stages: once we have a deal, we will put its terms to both Houses, and if we get approval for that deal, we will submit the withdrawal agreement and implementation Bill to implement those agreements in statute. I am not sure what is so complicated about that.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

So the Minister’s reading is that the Amendment 7 provision is merely synonymous with the implementing Bill?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

I do not think I said that. The terms of Amendment 7 are fairly clear. That has been written into Clause 9 by another place, and we will respect that.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Perhaps I was not paying enough attention, but can I ask my noble friend: if we are going to end up with primary legislation to implement the agreement, why is it necessary to have Clause 9 at all? He gave some examples of particular regulations, but I could not see the link that justified having Clause 9 itself.

[Lord Callanan]

There are some technical provisions that we may want to use Clause 9 to implement, subject to the provisions of Amendment 7. There is also the political imperative that the House of Commons considered this matter closely and decided to keep Clause 9 in the Bill, albeit modified. We want to respect the will of the House of Commons.

[Viscount Waverley]

Will the noble Lord write to me on the particular issue he raised on the CRaG procedure for the record?

[Lord Callanan]

Of course, I would be delighted to do so.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, we have to thank the Minister for his wisdom, his humour, his tolerance—but. One thing with which I agree with the Minister, on which I think I heard him right, is that he appreciates, which I have certainly felt, that there is clear support in Committee for a meaningful vote on the withdrawal deal, or indeed, on no deal. I do not know whether that will be the scorched earth, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, or the absence of a package, suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, but I think we know what we mean by “no deal”.

The question is: what is meaningful? If it is, as I said earlier, a mere Motion, with no statutory force, that surely is not meaningful. But it is not meaningful if it is not timely; in other words, if we do not have it early enough for it to make a difference. I think the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, asked whether it would be a case of like it or lump it. If so, I do not think that would work in either House. Indeed, I was quite concerned at one point when the Minister seemed to say that, if Parliament voted no to the deal, then we would come out without a deal. That is not what some of the amendments in this group want, and we do not want the outcome that if we vote down what there is, we will get the worst of all worlds. We want to put power back into the Commons, so if the decision is that the withdrawal deal will not do, it would be for the Commons to decide what to do about that. Also, the vote needs to be meaningful in that it should influence the choices that the Government will be making, as my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer said. That is the point. Knowing they have to come here for a deal will affect what happens in the negotiations, so the outcome will be influenced by a vote here.

It is absolutely clear from what everyone has said that it is for Parliament to endorse, or otherwise, the outcome, which is why I am not tempted by my noble friend Lord Adonis’s desire for a referendum. I remind him that it was a referendum that got us into this mess in the first place, but that is not the reason. The reason is that, like other speakers, I want to reassert parliamentary sovereignty. That is why we will try to bring back an amendment on Report that will ensure that, if Parliament gives the thumbs-down to the deal, it would be the Commons and not the Government that decides what happens next.