Brexit: Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration
Lord Callanan Excerpts(5 years, 4 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Callanan
That this House, for the purposes of section 13(1)(c) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, takes note of the negotiated withdrawal agreement laid before the House on Monday 26 November 2018 with the title Agreement on the withdrawal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from the European Union and the European Atomic Energy Community and the framework for the future relationship laid before the House on Monday 26 November 2018 with the title Political Declaration setting out the framework for the future relationship between the European Union and the United Kingdom.
Relevant document: 24th Report from the European Union Committee
Brexit: Statutory Instruments
Lord Callanan Excerpts(5 years, 4 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Beith
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the parliamentary time required for the consideration and approval of statutory instruments arising from the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union.
The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, the Government have a full understanding of the time required for the consideration and approval of EU exit-related statutory instruments. We remain confident that all EU exit-related SIs required to ensure a functioning statute book will be brought forward in good time for exit day and with the appropriate scrutiny.
Lord Beith (LD)
My Lords, that is not very informative. In broad terms, there are at least 200 statutory instruments—new laws—under scrutiny and at least 300 still to be brought forward. More will arise, either from a withdrawal agreement Bill or a Bill to cope with the consequences of no deal. Does the Minister recognise that, even if this House devoted eight hours every working day up to 29 March to these new laws, they would not get an hour’s consideration each? Can he guarantee that the Government will not resort to emergency powers enabling them to legislate without prior parliamentary approval? If there is an emergency, it is one of the Government’s own making. Does he not see that this situation is making a mockery of the idea that we are bringing back control of our own laws?
Lord Callanan
As I said, we remain confident that we will be able to deliver the programme in time. We do not expect to have to use the urgent procedure under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, but we cannot rule anything out at this stage. We have no expectation of having to do so.
Lord Cunningham of Felling (Lab)
My Lords, I draw the Minister’s attention to a statutory instrument produced by BEIS. It runs to 636 pages, weighs 2.54 kilos and covers 11 disparate subjects addressed to this House as one statutory instrument. Regarding procedures, this is unprecedented. Can the Minister assure the House that this is not simply an underhand way to reduce the number of statutory instruments we need to scrutinise, thereby reducing delays? It would take days for this document alone to undergo proper scrutiny in this House.
Lord Callanan
I thank the noble Lord for drawing that to my attention. I have more regard for his scrutiny powers than he himself does. I am sure he will give the matter his full consideration. These are essential pieces of legislation. We will need to introduce them before exit day.
Lord Lang of Monkton (Con)
My Lords, can my noble friend tell the House what proportion of these statutory instruments contain Henry VIII powers? Does he agree that any growth in the number of Henry VIII powers creates a dangerous power imbalance between the Executive and Parliament and therefore should be resisted?
Lord Callanan
We are endeavouring to keep the number containing Henry VIII powers to a minimum. I will write to the noble Lord with the detailed numbers.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, the Business Secretary said this morning on the “Today” programme that no deal would be a disaster. This view is said to be shared by other Cabinet Ministers. Why do the Government not rule it out and withdraw the SIs that address a no-deal scenario, thus allowing more time for consideration of regular SIs?
Lord Callanan
We have said that we do not want or expect a no-deal situation to arise, but it is responsible to prepare for it.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, what parliamentary authority is there for expenditure, including on SIs, on a no-deal scenario, which has now been ruled out by the other place?
Lord Callanan
The no-deal scenario has not been ruled out by the other place. Parliament as a whole has legislated for leaving the European Union on 29 March this year. We hope to do so with a deal. If not, we will leave without one.
Lord Pannick (CB)
My Lords, do the Government have no concerns about the quality of the primary and secondary legislation that will need to be enacted by 29 March? One understands the political reasons for not seeking an extension of the Article 50 process, but the national interest surely requires it.
Lord Callanan
Of course we have concerns about quality. We are endeavouring to keep all the relevant committees informed of when SIs will be tabled. We wrote to them before Christmas to give details. We are publishing full explanatory statements with every SI as required under the legislation; we are endeavouring to work with Parliament as much as possible in this process.
Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)
My Lords, as has been touched on already, many of the SIs being laid are in preparation for a no-deal Brexit. Does the Minister agree that a huge amount of parliamentary and civil servants’ time, and money, would be far better spent and saved if the Government simply did not bring forward SIs that deal with a no-deal Brexit? Nobody wants it.
Lord Callanan
The Labour Party cannot have it both ways. It cannot on the one hand say, “We are voting against the best and only deal available”, and then say, “But we don’t want no deal”. No deal is the absence of a deal. If you want a deal, European Union leaders have made it very clear that this is the best and only deal available, the result of two years of negotiation. No alternative deal is available. If you do not want no deal, you need to vote for the deal.
Lord Newby (LD)
Will the Minister explain the Government’s complete lack of urgency in dealing with statutory instruments? We will rise today by about 3 pm; we normally rise at 7 pm. We are not sitting tomorrow. The noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, has graphically demonstrated that, on current plans, there is no way that the Government are scheduling business so that we can deal with SIs in a professional manner. Why is this?
Lord Callanan
The organisation of business in the House is a matter for my noble friend the Chief Whip and for the usual channels. I am sure they will, as they always do, work collaboratively and co-operatively to ensure there is sufficient time for the proper scrutiny of all the appropriate legislation.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
I have taken a lot of interest in the SI process and most of these SIs are needed, whether we have a deal or not, to bring EU law into UK law. We should support that process whatever our views in today’s bigger debate.
Lord Callanan
I thank my noble friend for her constructive comments. The reality is that we are leaving the European Union. That decision was made by the referendum and by Parliament. We happen to believe that we should do it with a functioning statute book.
Air Pollution
Lord Callanan Excerpts(5 years, 4 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will be liable to enforcement action brought by the European Commission in the European Court of Justice regarding breaches of air pollution rules during the proposed transition period; and if so, whether this will continue if the backstop is enacted.
The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, during the implementation period, Union law will continue to apply and the CJEU will have jurisdiction. Any breaches of air pollution rules by the UK during the implementation period could therefore result in enforcement action by the CJEU. Were the backstop to come into effect, the CJEU’s role would be strictly limited to interpreting and enforcing the small number of areas in which EU law would apply. This does not include most air pollution rules.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
I thank the Minister for his Answer. I am sure he realises that air pollution is a huge problem in Britain today. My big concern is that we will end up with the Government’s draft environmental plan option, which is the office for environmental protection, which has absolutely no teeth and cannot prevent air pollution in any way. Why are the Government not replicating the EU regulations, which most people in Britain would like to see happen?
Lord Callanan
I know that the noble Baroness takes a close interest in this important matter. I agree that air pollution is very important. However, the answer to her question is that we are. After we have left the European Union, the same air pollution rules as before will continue to apply in the UK; that was legislated for in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act. The office for environmental protection, which we aim to set up by the end of the implementation period, will be able to enforce those same rules.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that one of the reasons we have a problem with air pollution is because of diesel engines, which were promoted as a result of the EU regulations, which were in turn promoted by German manufacturers, such as Volkswagen and others, which then went on to fiddle the rules for emissions standards?
Lord Callanan
As always, my noble friend makes an important point. It is also important to add to the reply that I gave to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, that it is not only the UK; 13 member states, including all the big member states, are also subject to infraction proceedings by the Commission, primarily as a result of the failure of diesel engine vehicles manufacturers to produce sufficient environmental impact reductions.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, it clearly would have been better had successive UK Governments implemented EU air pollution rules many years ago, as they were obliged to do. In fact, they had to be dragged through the courts to accept their responsibilities. But has the Minister not omitted something? Not only do we have to apply EU law during transition with the normal enforcement powers, but the Northern Ireland protocol obliges the UK not to reduce environmental protection below EU standards. Any disputes raised in the interpretation of EU law must go to the ECJ. Surely, that could include environmental law.
Lord Callanan
As I said, 13 member states are subject to these infraction proceedings. Were the backstop, or some level playing field provisions, to come into effect, they would not be enforceable by the European Court of Justice.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, according to the withdrawal agreement—I think it is in Annex 4, with which the Minister will be familiar—if there are any disagreements over air pollution commitments, they are to be agreed by the joint UK-EU committee. However, if those two sides cannot agree, unlike in other areas, there is no provision for an arbitration panel. Why is that?
Lord Callanan
It depends on whether the noble Baroness is referring to the implementation period or to the backstop. If she is referring to the backstop, I refer her to the answer I have just given to the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I am sorry, but we are talking about enforcement, and the Minister has not answered the question on enforcement, as opposed to the rules.
Lord Callanan
I answered the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford. Were there to be a dispute over the application of the level playing field provisions, it would not be enforced by the European Court of Justice.
Lord Whitty (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Baroness’s Question and the Minister’s Answer focus on agreement and the idea that a deal will be done and there will be an implementation period. If I understand the parliamentary arithmetic in another place, that is at least doubtful at this point. If indeed we have no deal and leave the European Union on 29 March, there will be no UK-based enforcement procedure for environmental standards because the Government have failed to produce an environment Bill that gives powers to the British Government to do what Europe has hitherto had to do. When will those powers come forward and what is the timetable for that Bill?
Lord Callanan
I think the noble Lord has provided his party with a good reason to vote for the withdrawal agreement, so that we will have an implementation period. However, he is of course correct: if we have no withdrawal agreement, by operation of the law, we will leave the EU on 29 March next year and none of the provisions of the withdrawal Act will come into force.
Brexit: Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration
Lord Callanan Excerpts(5 years, 4 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Callanan
That this House, for the purposes of section 13(1)(c) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, takes note of the negotiated withdrawal agreement laid before the House on Monday 26 November 2018 with the title Agreement on the withdrawal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from the European Union and the European Atomic Energy Community and the framework for the future relationship laid before the House on Monday 26 November 2018 with the title Political Declaration setting out the framework for the future relationship between the European Union and the United Kingdom.
Relevant document: 24th Report from the European Union Committee
The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, is paying attention. Today marks the start of three days of debate examining two documents: the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration, which together form the agreed deal with the European Union. These were, of course, the subject of two days of debate before Christmas in this House, as well as three days in the other place.
In both Houses we heard many diverse views on the deal, with much positive commentary—and of course some negative commentary—on what has been agreed after two years of difficult negotiations. While the task of closing the next three days of debate falls to my noble and learned friend Lord Keen, I thought it would be appropriate, with the leave of the House, to take time in my opening remarks to address many of the points made by noble Lords before Christmas, since they did not get to benefit from a closing speech at the time.
Noble Lords examined every aspect of the deal, demonstrating the breadth and depth of their experience and expertise. While the vote on the final agreement is rightly one for the elected House, it is clear that contributions from this House will be of great value to those making their choice in the other place. One subject in particular was raised by my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay, the noble Lords, Lord McCrea and Lord Empey, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, among others, and that was of course the Irish border and the backstop. At the time, I was especially struck by the powerful intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Bew. Given the concern about the backstop across both Houses, it was right that the Government took the opportunity to raise these concerns with our negotiating counterparts in the EU.
Following the December European Council, the EU published conclusions which gave the reassurance that the EU,
“stands ready to embark on preparations immediately after signature of the Withdrawal Agreement to ensure that negotiations can start as soon as possible after the UK’s withdrawal”.
As has been made clear in private meetings with the Prime Minister, this confirms that the EU, like this Government, does not want to use the backstop. I recognise that, despite all this, significant concerns remain in this House, which is why the Prime Minister set out that we would be seeking further assurances on top of those provided in the December European Council conclusions.
Over the Christmas period, the PM has been in contact with a number of her European counterparts about the further assurances that Parliament needs on the backstop. The PM has been in touch with the Taoiseach, and British and Irish government officials have also been in contact over the past week. Securing those additional reassurances that Parliament needs remains our priority, and leaders remain in contact. Leaving the EU with the deal that has been agreed is in the interests of both sides.
We recognise the concerns raised around the backstop and the unique challenges presented by Northern Ireland in our exit from the EU. That is why we have today published a paper setting out a series of commitments to Northern Ireland, in particular in any backstop scenario. These recognise the unique circumstances of Northern Ireland and the unique nature of the impact of the backstop in Northern Ireland. This seeks to address some of those concerns and reaffirm Northern Ireland’s integral place as part of the United Kingdom.
In that paper, we set out that we will ensure a strong role for the Northern Ireland Assembly ahead of any decision to bring the backstop into effect. We will provide a Stormont lock over any new areas of law being added to the backstop, giving a guarantee in law that no new areas of law can apply to Northern Ireland under the backstop without seeking the consent of the Northern Ireland Assembly. We will guarantee the unfettered access of Northern Ireland businesses to the whole of the United Kingdom market. Again, we will set that out in legislation. We will give an unequivocal commitment that that there will be no divergence in rules between the scope of the backstop between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, were it ever to come into effect.
We will set out a legal guarantee that nothing will change areas of north/south co-operation without the explicit agreement of the Executive, in line with the arrangements under strand 2 of the Belfast Agreement. We will provide a clear role for the Northern Ireland Executive in discussions between the UK and the EU under the withdrawal agreement structures that specifically affect Northern Ireland, and we will ensure a strong role for the Northern Ireland Executive and the other devolved Administrations as we move into the next phase of negotiations.
I am aware of the Motion tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, to which I am sure she will speak in more detail shortly. My noble and learned friend Lord Keen will respond to that in closing the debate.
Over the course of this debate, we will examine two documents that represent months of complex negotiations and deliver on the result of the referendum. As noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Tugendhat and the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, noted before Christmas, the deal may not be perfect. It is well known that negotiations require compromise, especially when dealing with 27 other countries. As the Prime Minister has said, we must not risk making the perfect the enemy of the good.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My noble friend has made an interesting statement about Northern Ireland and the paper that has been published. Why was it not possible for the Government to publish it in advance of this debate so that we had a chance to read it and understand what was involved?
Lord Callanan
My noble friend makes a good point, but important negotiations have been going on on these matters and we continue to discuss these matters with our EU partners. We hope to bring further clarifications before the vote.
The withdrawal agreement and political declaration demonstrate our joint commitment to a future partnership that reflects the depth of our shared history and values. It is right, as the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, among others, reminded us in the first debate, that this future partnership should work in the best interests of the country and for all generations in it. This deal delivers on the result of the referendum by restoring sovereign control over our borders, laws and money. It protects jobs and the vital security co-operation with our European neighbours, and it delivers certainty for businesses and citizens. This is a deal which, if passed in the other place, will ensure that our exit is smooth and orderly, and delivers in the national interest.
This deal delivers in securing the rights of EU citizens living and working in the United Kingdom, who make such a valuable contribution to our society, economy and public services. That contribution was highlighted by noble Lords, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer and Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, and the noble Lord, Lord Cashman. This deal delivers on that commitment and secures the rights of 3.5 million EU citizens living and working in the UK and those nearly 800,000 UK nationals living and working in the EU, so that they can continue living their lives broadly as they do now.
The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, rightly raised the important question of Irish citizens’ rights in the UK, particularly those who may be without a passport. The Government will ensure that these rights will continue to be protected when we leave the EU, no matter what the terms of our departure.
The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, spoke passionately about immigration and freedom of movement. We shall introduce a skills-based immigration system, built around the talents and skills that a person has to offer, not solely on where they come from.
This deal ensures there will be an end to the billions of pounds we send to Brussels every year, allowing us to invest in our domestic priorities. It means that we will leave the common agricultural policy and the common fisheries policy. We will once again be in control of our immigration policy.
Let me turn now to the political declaration, which sets out the terms of our future relationship. The noble Lords, Lord Mendelsohn and Lord Livermore, and my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising spoke about the impact of leaving the EU on the economy.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
Why is the Minister reading out a speech drafted to reply to the debate that we are not continuing?
Lord Callanan
It was not drafted just for that; it has also taken account of the latest developments. Many noble Lords contributed in the first debate and we did not get the chance to reply to them. So, while making my points, I will seek to reply to the many questions asked of me in the debate at the time. I thought that would be helpful to the House.
The deal will pave the way for an unprecedented economic relationship with the EU—one that no other major economy has. We will have a new free trade area with no tariffs, fees, quantitative restrictions or rules of origin checks. We will also have an independent trade policy and strike free trade deals with partners outside the EU. I highlight to my noble friend Lady Hooper that this is being taken forward by my right honourable friend in the other place Dr Liam Fox.
Some noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Owen, Lord Mancroft, Lord Lea of Crondall and Lord Monks, suggested a Norway-style EEA option as an alternative to the bespoke deal that is on the table. However, an EEA deal would leave us unable to end free movement without the EU being able to take retaliatory action. It would also not cover a range of important issues such as customs, external security or Euratom. Others have put forward a Canada-plus option as an alternative. However, we believe that we need a solution that allows for frictionless trade and at the same time avoids a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. A Canada-style deal would not provide for this and would therefore be unacceptable.
Some noble Lords, including my noble friends Lord Shinkwin and Lord Hailsham, spoke about economic forecasts and assumptions of late. Let me highlight to noble Lords what has happened in our economy since the referendum. Total UK exports rose by 10.9% in 2017 compared with 2016. We have increased our exports from the equivalent of 28% of GDP to 30% of GDP. Of course we must not be complacent, but this does not represent the doom and gloom declared by many speakers. I agree with the passionate speech made in December by my noble friend Lady Meyer, who said:
“We should believe in ourselves”.—[Official Report, 5/12/18; col. 1077.]
My noble friend Lord Wasserman and the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, were correct in their contributions. The security of our nation is paramount. That is why we have negotiated the terms of the most comprehensive security relationship in the EU’s history. The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and my noble friend Lord Risby also raised the important issue of the UK’s participation in Galileo. The EU’s current stance is to bar the UK from full involvement in developing Galileo. The Prime Minister has made it clear that we cannot allow our Armed Forces to depend on a system that we cannot be sure of. As such, the Government will take forward plans, working closely with key international partners, for a new system that will fulfil our security requirements and provide appropriate resilience. We can of course discuss the matter of our past contributions to the Galileo project in future talks with the EU, as specified in the December joint report.
Many noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Krebs and Lord Whitty, my noble friend Lord Heseltine, the noble Baronesses, Lady Bakewell, Lady Randerson and Lady Thornton, and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, spoke passionately about the UK’s scientific and education programmes. Noble Lords rightly asked about future collaboration with the EU on science and technology, and of course on higher education programmes. The withdrawal agreement offers certainty to universities and other UK recipients of EU research funding programmes, including Horizon 2020, by providing for continued UK participation until the current programmes end in 2020; and for the lifetime of individual projects, replacing the need for the Government’s existing funding guarantee.
We have been clear that we want to explore association with EU research and innovation programmes, Horizon Europe and Euratom research and training, and will of course be prepared to make an appropriate financial contribution if we do participate. That is why the political declaration sets out that the future relationship will include terms for the UK’s participation in EU programmes in areas of shared interest, including science and innovation, and culture and education.
Many noble Lords, predominantly on the Liberal Democrat Benches, spoke at length about their favourite subject: a second referendum. I repeat yet again that in June 2016, 17.4 million people voted to leave. The British people confirmed that decision the following year by voting for parties committed to delivering Brexit. This deal delivers for the British people.
The Liberal Democrats, I know, have history on this. Indeed, it was the Liberal Democrats under Nick Clegg who first called for a “real referendum on Europe”. I looked again at a copy of that leaflet and I have to say that nowhere did it call for “two real referenda on Europe”. What we need now is certainty and clarity and not the chaos and confusion of a second referendum and all the division that it would bring.
Lord Callanan
My Lords, we have come a long way to respect and deliver on the result of the referendum. This House has scrutinised and contributed to a number of Bills which will guarantee that the UK continues to have a functioning statute book after exit day.
Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)
Why should the British people have any confidence in the Government’s capacity to produce what the Minister said they wanted—clarity and stability—when the most glaring recent example of the Government’s capabilities was to hire a firm to supply ferries which had no ferries? If the Secretary of State for Transport really wanted an organisation that had no ships, he could have asked the Royal Navy.
Lord Callanan
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his amusing contribution. I am sure that many noble Lords would disagree with his assessment of the capabilities of our excellent Navy. We make no apologies whatever for preparing for a no-deal situation. The exit date was legislated for in the notification of withdrawal Act and in the EU withdrawal Act last year. We will be leaving the EU on 29 March next year.
Lord Callanan
That is the second time I have done that today, my Lords. I apologise; I meant 29 March this year. I got so used to saying it last year that I have repeated it a number of times. Maybe I did not get a long enough Christmas break to get over it properly.
Lord Callanan
I am grateful to the noble Lord.
There will be further legislation to implement this deal—the withdrawal agreement Bill—and then a future relationship deal to be scrutinised, shaped and signed. Throughout this, we will continue to work closely with both Houses and their Select Committees.
As my right honourable friend the Secretary of State confirmed in the other place earlier today, we will accept the amendment made by the honourable Member for East Devon to give Parliament a vote on whether to seek to extend the implementation period or to allow the possibility of the backstop coming into effect.
During the three upcoming days of debate, noble Lords will examine a withdrawal agreement that will ensure our smooth and orderly departure on 29 March and, tied to this agreement, a political declaration on an ambitious future partnership that is in our national interest.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
Before the Minister concludes his reflections on contributions from the previous debate, perhaps he can assist those who will take part in this one, given the parliamentary rules. A Written Statement made in the other place today by Mr Lidington says that there will be,
“a strong role for Stormont before the backstop could be triggered”.
It is two years to the day since Martin McGuinness resigned, triggering the cessation of the Northern Ireland Assembly. For those who will contribute to this debate, can the Minister be very specific about what the role is intended to be for an institution that does not exist but which would effectively have a veto over a key part of what he has just outlined to the House?
Lord Callanan
The Stormont Assembly does exist; it is just not sitting at the moment. [Laughter.] Noble Lords laugh, but this is an important matter. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is working day and night to try to get the Assembly restored, because that is the proper place for it. We hope that it will be, but, obviously, if it does not sit then it cannot have a role. I set out in the paper released earlier today the guarantees that we are giving to the Stormont Assembly.
This is a deal which honours the integrity of our United Kingdom. It delivers on the referendum result, and it delivers Brexit for the people of the United Kingdom. I look forward to listening to the debate and, in closing, I commend the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration to the House.
Brexit: Legislative Timetable
Lord Callanan Excerpts(5 years, 4 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their proposed timetable for the passage of all remaining (1) primary, and (2) secondary legislation required for Brexit by 29 March 2019.
The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, we have already put in place many of the legislative building blocks to deliver our exit from the EU. Five exit-related Bills have been passed and six more are now making their way through Parliament. We are also making good progress on the secondary legislation needed to ensure that we have a functioning statute book on exit day.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
I welcome my noble friend back from his holidays, albeit for a particularly difficult and busy period for his department. Can he give the House an assurance today that the six remaining Bills before this House and the best part of 1,000 statutory instruments to prepare for Brexit will be given full and proper scrutiny in this House? Further, does he yet have a date for when directives such as the European falsified medicines directive will be scrutinised in this Chamber?
Lord Callanan
I can certainly give the noble Baroness an assurance that we will allow for proper scrutiny. Perhaps I may correct her statement on the number of SIs. As we wrote to the sifting committees just before Christmas, we now estimate that the number of SIs we will need by exit day is slightly fewer than 600, of which we have already tabled more than 300.
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)
My Lords, can the noble Lord assure the House that legislation in the form of Acts of Parliament to come before us will not be treated as emergency legislation because the Government are running out of time?
Lord Callanan
Discussions on the time allowed for legislation are a matter for the usual channels. Co-operation in this House has always been good, and I can assure noble Lords that that co-operation will continue with any required legislation.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, with only 30% of the time left, there remains 60% of the anticipated SIs to deal with. Meanwhile, Mr Grayling has been conducting a no-deal exercise with 89 lorries, although 10,000 of them use Dover every day. It is hard to disagree with the former Polish Deputy Prime Minister when he writes about our Prime Minister’s deeply deceitful Brexit path, which has disintegrated before her eyes. When will the Government allow the people to pass judgment on this tragedy turned to farce?
Lord Callanan
I assume that the noble Baroness did not listen to the answer I gave earlier, and not for the first time the Liberal Democrats have got their figures wrong. We have already tabled more than 50% of the required statutory instruments, as we informed the two sifting committees before Christmas.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, the Government have wasted a full month by pulling the December vote and yet they are coming back with exactly the same deal. We still have seven Bills and only 600 SIs to deal with. Despite the urgency, the Prime Minister has today decided not to turn up in the House of Commons to explain what has been going on, which sounds like a Government in hiding. Can the Minister guarantee that the Government will heed the demand of 200 or more MPs, including some from his own side, to rule out no deal? Further, will he ensure that the Government will engage with business, with consumers and with the Opposition to find a way forward that is acceptable to the people of this country and to Parliament?
Lord Callanan
The Prime Minister has appeared numerous times in the House of Commons and will be doing so later this week, but she has other matters to attend to as well. In response to the question put by the noble Baroness, no, I will not rule out the fact that there could be no deal. No deal is the absence of a deal. If the Labour Party is really serious about avoiding no deal, there is a deal on the table for it to vote for.
Lord Trefgarne (Con)
My Lords, as chairman of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, perhaps I may say that we fully accept the challenge which the Government are facing in this matter and we will do our duty as required.
Lord Callanan
I thank my noble friend for his extremely constructive attitude. It allows me to come back to a point raised by the noble Baroness which I did not answer. She said that there are 600 SIs to table. That is the total that will be required, and the figure has been revised down from our original estimate of between 800 and 1,000. We have already tabled more than 50% of them. The rest will be tabled in due course to allow for proper parliamentary scrutiny using the sifting committee chaired by the noble Lord.
Lord Cunningham of Felling (Lab)
My Lords, as chairman of the other scrutiny committee, let me challenge what the noble Lord has just said to the House. He said that more than 300 secondary legislative instruments have been tabled, but 300 have not yet been scrutinised.
Lord Callanan
I accept the noble Lord’s clarification. We have submitted over 300 of them for the appropriate scrutiny, and the rest will be submitted for scrutiny in due course.
Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)
My Lords, if we do actually crash out on 29 March, what happens to the Northern Ireland border?
Lord Callanan
I am not sure I like the noble and learned Baroness’s term “crash out”. We will leave on 29 March because we had a referendum on the subject and because Parliament, both in this House and the other, has voted on two occasions—in the notification of withdrawal Act and the withdrawal Act—for the UK to leave and for the referendum Bill to be approved. We, the European Commission and the Irish Government have made it clear that there will not be a hard border on the island of Ireland.
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, of the 600 SIs to which the noble Lord referred, how many have passed both Houses?
Lord Callanan
I do not have those figures in front of me. I will write to the noble Lord on that.
Lord Hain (Lab)
My Lords, can the Minister answer the specific question put by my noble friend Lord Bassam about there being no emergency legislation before 29 March? Can he confirm that the forthcoming Trade Bill, due in this House shortly, could be the last legislative vehicle to accept an amendment to rule out no deal?
Lord Callanan
As I said in the earlier answer, the progress of legislation in this House is a matter for the usual channels, in which co-operation with the opposition parties is always ongoing. I am sure the Chief Whip will want to continue that. As for ruling out no deal, no deal is what happens if you do not have a deal. We will leave the EU on 29 March this year because that is the legislation that Parliament has passed on two occasions, and it is what Article 50 says. There is a mechanism to avoid no deal, and that is to vote for the only deal available.
Lord Callanan
I will not advise the noble Lord and others what amendments can be acceptable. That is not my role. There are a number of pieces of primary legislation still before this House and, if we are in a no-deal situation, further pieces of primary legislation will be forthcoming.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)
My Lords, is the Minister convinced that all this legislation can be carried through Parliament in the 40 working days we have left? How on earth will he manage that?
Lord Callanan
Of course, it will be a challenge, but I am sure all Members of this House want to see us leave the European Union in a smooth and orderly manner, which requires the appropriate legislation to be put in place.
Lord Rooker (Lab)
How many of the statutory instruments that the Government have submitted to both Houses for scrutiny have been sent back by the sifting committees because they were put forward as negative instruments but the sifting committees think Ministers are slipping policy issues through and have recommended they be upgraded to affirmative instruments? How many are still in the queue for the Government to look at whether to upgrade them to affirmative instruments? This delay is caused purely by the Government, not the sifting committees.
Lord Callanan
I never said there was any delay caused by the sifting committees. They are carrying out the proper role allocated to them by this House and by the legislation. We are accepting all their recommendations. If they think SIs should not be negative but positive, our record is that we have accepted all their recommendations so far.
Brexit: People’s Vote
Lord Callanan Excerpts(5 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Dykes
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have received on a People’s Vote on Brexit.
The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, the Government have been clear that we will not hold a second referendum. A clear majority of the electorate voted to leave the European Union in the people’s vote held in 2016. We must respect both the will of the British people and the democratic process which delivered that result.
Lord Dykes (CB)
My Lords, a people’s vote would have no direct connection to the previous referendum—it is a separate matter entirely. Will the Minister undertake to make sure that the Government, led by either the present incumbent or whoever succeeds her over the next short period, concentrate on examining the incredible number of messages that are coming in to all government departments, including the Minister’s, from people who were leave voters saying that they are now minded to consider changing their minds, bearing in mind the changed circumstances?
Lord Callanan
The short answer to the noble Lord’s question is no. I do not know where he gets his figures from about the incredible number of messages, because I certainly have not seen any.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, 48 messages were sent about Mrs May and were able to lead straightaway to an election, so other votes are now awaited. We need votes in the other House on the withdrawal deal and a vote on this Government for their mishandling of Brexit, the NHS waiting lists, the universal credit shambles and much else besides. Will the Minister perhaps undertake to this House to advise Mrs May that the correct way forward for a Prime Minister who has lost control of the Cabinet, the Commons and the country is to call a general election?
Lord Callanan
I am sure that the Prime Minister will be very grateful for the noble Baroness’s advice. If I get the opportunity, I will, of course, pass on her fond regards.
Lord Higgins (Con)
My Lords, referendums are often described as democratic, but they are not what we usually mean by democratic in this country, where we have a system of representative parliamentary democracy. The effect of having a referendum is to undermine that system because it changes Members of Parliament from being representatives to delegates. Will the Minister look at the situation in the Netherlands, where the Government are considering banning referendums altogether?
Lord Callanan
I understand the point that my noble friend is making and I realise that this view is widely shared. I must point out, however, that the referendum was agreed to, authorised and voted for by this Parliament. We agreed to ask the people what their verdict was on the European Union.
Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)
My Lords, the Prime Minister was very clear that there would not be a general election in 2017. The Prime Minister and the members of her Cabinet who were dispatched last Friday and even on Monday morning were very clear that there was going to be a vote on the withdrawal agreement on Tuesday evening in the House of Commons. There was not such a vote. Therefore, how certain is the Minister that the Prime Minister will not change her mind and allow a people’s vote, assuming that she survives this evening?
Lord Callanan
Very certain, is the answer to the noble Baroness’s question. As she well knows, to hold a referendum—as with the previous referendum—the Government would need to introduce legislation, and we are not going to do that.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)
My Lords, in his Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, the Minister said that he had seen no representations from anybody on the subject of this Question. On the face of it, it feels a little unlikely that neither he nor any of his colleagues in government have seen any such representations. Can he confirm that and, if it is not strictly true, will he research just how many representations have been received and then write to me?
Lord Callanan
I was answering the noble Lord truthfully on what representations I had seen, which is what he asked me. I will certainly go back and check with the department, but I receive a lot of correspondence both publicly and privately and I do not recall seeing any such representations. This is not to say that there have not been any letters in the department—there may have been one or two, but I certainly have not seen any on my private email.
The Archbishop of York
My Lords, would the Minister agree with the African sentiment that when two elephants fight, the grass gets hurt? Is it now time to look for reconciliation as a nation and move forward? Is it now time to stop point-scoring and actually listen to one another with a sense of humility, humbleness and kindness and to have more civil discourse? Otherwise, elephants are fighting and the grass is getting hurt.
Lord Callanan
As on so many things, the most reverend Primate makes important points that we should all take careful heed of.
Lord Cormack (Con)
Does my noble friend accept that the referendum of June 2016 divided this country more bitterly than anything else in living memory? What is the point of exacerbating that division by having another referendum for which there is clearly no groundswell of public opinion? As someone who deeply regrets the result of the referendum of 2016, I endorse, as I hope will my noble friend, the most reverend Primate’s plea for reconciliation.
Lord Callanan
My noble friend is absolutely correct. There are many arguments against a second referendum, but I think the most powerful one is that it would not necessarily solve anything.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
My Lords, the Minister said that a majority of the electorate had voted to leave the European Union. If I recall correctly, 37% voted to leave, 33% voted to remain and 30% did not vote at all. Ministers go around saying that 52% of the British people voted to leave the European Union—I heard Jeremy Hunt say that on TV the other day. Last time I looked, the population of the UK was about 65 million, and we keep getting told that 17.4 million people voted to leave the European Union. That is about one in four. Does the Minister not agree that Ministers should be a little more precise in their language?
Lord Callanan
I am happy to agree with the noble Baroness that in the referendum, of the people who voted, the majority voted to leave.
Brexit: Economic Forecast
Lord Callanan Excerpts(5 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, the UK will be leaving the EU on 29 March next year. Today the Government published their EU exit analysis. It is not a forecast, but focuses on the long-term impact on the UK’s economy. The analysis shows that the model White Paper scenario would support higher economic output for all sectors, compared to the model “no deal” scenario. This is the best deal on offer for protecting jobs and our economy.
Lord Strasburger (LD)
I thank the Minister for that Answer to my Question, if that is what he thinks it was. The Prime Minister repeatedly asserts that rejecting her deal will take us back to square one. That can mean only one thing: that we continue with our current status, which is full membership of the European Union, with all its benefits and with all our current opt-outs. Does the Minister agree with the majority of this House, the majority of the other place, and the majority now of the voting public that square one is a great place to be, and the best option for the country?
Lord Callanan
I am sorry if the noble Lord was disappointed with my Answer, but perhaps he has neglected the small matter of the EU withdrawal Act, which was passed by this Parliament—this House and the House of Commons—and legislated for our withdrawal from the European Union as a result of the referendum, which the Liberals also want conveniently to ignore. We are leaving the EU on 29 March next year. I hope that we will leave with this deal, but if we do not, we will leave with no deal.
Viscount Hailsham (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend agree with the Treasury assessment that the United Kingdom’s economic interests would best be served by remaining in the European Union on existing terms?
Lord Callanan
I refer my noble friend to the Answer I just gave the noble Lord. We had a referendum on the subject and the country decided to leave the European Union. That referendum was authorised and legislated for by this Parliament, our notification of withdrawal was legislated for by this Parliament, and we have now ratified the withdrawal Act, which legislates for our withdrawal date of 29 March next year.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
Given that that analysis is based on the Chequers deal and not on the deal that has been negotiated with the EU, when will we have an economic analysis of the deal that is to be put in front of this House, and when will we get the legal advice?
Lord Callanan
The agreement of the political declaration will now be followed by negotiations on the legal text. We and the EU both recognise that this means that there could be a spectrum of different outcomes, and have agreed that it should be as ambitious as possible. On the legal advice, my understanding is that there will be a Statement in the House of Commons next week.
Lord Lilley (Con)
My Lords, is it not a myth that there is a conflict between democratic control of our laws and prosperity? In fact, democracy and prosperity go hand in hand, because in a democracy, if the Government do not deliver prosperity, the people can chuck them out. But the EU is not like that. Its principal economic policy, the euro, has been a disaster which has deprived millions of young people throughout southern Europe of jobs, but nobody in the European Commission has lost their job. Should we not be free to have our own laws, not constrained within a straitjacket of uniform laws across the European continent?
Lord Callanan
As always, my noble friend makes a powerful point. One of the results of the referendum that I am particularly proud of is taking back control to this country. It delivers control of our immigration policy, our fishing policy and our agricultural policy. Once again, the destiny of this country is in the hands of its elected representatives, which is a good thing.
The Earl of Clancarty (CB)
My Lords, the original Question was on sectors of the economy. What do the Government think will be the particular effect of the loss of freedom of movement on our service industries with regard to business in Europe?
Lord Callanan
The noble Earl is correct that freedom of movement is ending. We are in favour of agreeing a mobility partnership with the EU which will allow the movement of business professionals, tourists, and so on, from which both our economies develop. But there will no longer be freedom of movement as in the original treaties.
Baroness Ludford
No; I will not give way to a third Tory. Can the Minister tell us whether this is the first Government in history who have deliberately pursued a policy that they know—as the Chancellor confirmed this morning—will make this country and its people poorer? If not, please can he name any other Governments who have acted in such a way?
Lord Callanan
I do not think the noble Earl would be happy to be called a Tory by the noble Baroness. This policy will not make the country poorer. On every scenario, this country will continue to grow. A range of possible growth predictions is modelled in this analysis, but of course many other factors can influence economic growth, and this is likely to be a relatively small contributor to the overall economic growth. Of course, what would be truly disastrous would be a Labour Government, who would affect the economic growth of this country. We are proud of our economic record; we have delivered record low levels of unemployment for 40 years, the Government can be proud of their economic record, which will continue.
Lord Tebbit
My Lords, will my noble friend remind the questioner that square one for this country was to be a free, democratic country in which we elected our own Government and could sack our own Government? That is not the European Union.
Lord Callanan
I will agree with my noble friend briefly and then perhaps we can hear from the noble Lord, Lord Bridges.
Lord Bridges of Headley
As we have heard, a number of my noble friends have been asking whether Article 50 might be revoked and making the case for this. Yesterday, the European Council’s top lawyer argued that Article 50 cannot be unilaterally revoked but would require the unanimous support of all EU member states. Do the British Government agree with the EU on this point?
Lord Callanan
I knew I would regret asking the noble Lord to come in on this one. He will be well aware that as the Minister responsible for this matter, I am unable to comment on the ongoing judicial process beyond saying that the UK will not revoke its Article 50 notice.
Brexit: Proposed Agreement
Lord Callanan Excerpts(5 years, 6 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they anticipate publishing the details of a proposed agreement with the European Union on the terms of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal.
The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, a deal is in the interests of not just the UK but the European Union. We want to make progress as soon as possible, but there will not be an agreement at any cost. As the Prime Minister said on Monday, we are now in the end game for negotiations and are working extremely hard to deliver the withdrawal agreement and the future framework.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
My Lords, this has turned out to be a really topical Question. Does the Minister recall that the vote that took place in 2016—contrary to what the noble Lord, Lord Bates, said in answer to the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham—was a vote by the narrow majority to authorise the start of negotiations for withdrawal? Now that we are imminently to be told the terms, surely the choice between leaving the European Union on those terms or the status quo should be put to another people’s vote.
Lord Callanan
I should congratulate the noble Lord on his foresight in tabling such a Question for such a slow Brexit news day, but perhaps we will be able to enlighten him further. I think that he is totally wrong in what he said and I agree totally with the answer given by my noble friend Lord Bates. We have already had a people’s vote and the people voted to leave. The question on the ballot paper was, “Do you want to leave the European Union or remain in the European Union?” and people said that they wanted to leave.
Lord Lilley (Con)
My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that, if Parliament rejects this agreement—as may well be the case given that the opposition to it spans the vast gulf between a brace of Johnsons—taxpayers will save £40 billion, which could be spent on taxpayers’ priorities? The second consequence is that we would trade on World Trade Organization terms, which should not be frightening. I say that not just because I helped to negotiate the establishment of the WTO but because our trade with countries with which we trade on WTO terms has grown three times as rapidly as our trade with the single market since it was established.
Lord Callanan
I thank my noble friend for his question. It of course remains the case, because this House passed the withdrawal Act, that if Parliament refuses to agree the withdrawal agreement then we have no deal.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, Parliament needs to see the actual text; perhaps the Minister can tell us when that will happen—preferably not too far behind the journalists. We already know enough to understand that this is a miserable Brexit; indeed, it is impossible for any Brexit deal to be as good as EU membership. When will the Government be honest about this, stop the disinformation and put it to the people for them to decide?
Lord Callanan
The noble Baroness says that she wants to see the text, but she has already decided what it says before she has seen it, which is of course typical of the attitude of the Liberal Democrats—they have decided what they believe before they see the final deal. The Cabinet is meeting this afternoon to consider the draft agreement that the negotiating teams have reached in Brussels and will decide on the next steps in the national interest.
Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab)
My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on trying to bring everyone together. Does he appreciate, and agree, that there are 2 million people who will be much more affected than he or I will be by whatever deal the Government are considering and whatever deal is accepted? They were not allowed to vote in the referendum, but they would be entitled to vote today. Do they not deserve a say?
Lord Callanan
The people who have a say are those who vote in the referendum or election that you have at the time. You cannot go back to elections and say, “What would the result have been if different numbers of people had taken part?” I reiterate the point my noble friend Lord Bates made: we have already had a people’s vote and people voted to leave. In my view, that is the settled will of the country, and we are implementing that outcome.
Lord Dykes (CB)
My Lords, despite the rumours, the Minister is a fair-minded man. Would he not therefore agree, in answer to the Question from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that, bearing in mind that the Government psychologically lost the mandate to pursue the Brexit negotiations anyway in the 8 June 2017 election, now is the time to reflect the changes in public opinion and the younger voters coming on to the roll, and for the Government to allow Parliament to make that decision about a people’s vote?
Lord Callanan
I thank the noble Lord for his compliment but no, I do not agree with him. At the general election, both we and the Labour Party stood on manifestos saying that the result of the referendum should be respected. Indeed, the leader of the Opposition confirmed that last week. Over 80% of votes were cast in that general election for parties that said that they would respect the outcome of the referendum.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that, in addition to the 550 pages, the impact assessment should also be made available before this House debates the meaningful vote? Will he also ensure that our committees have time to predigest it so that we can benefit from their advice?
Lord Callanan
I have discussed this with the noble Baroness before, but following the conclusion of the negotiation and ahead of the meaningful vote we will make available to all Members of the House a full, reasoned position statement laying out both the political and legal position of the Government on the proposed withdrawal agreement, including any protocols that might be attached to it.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, while I endorse what the noble Baroness just said, is this not a time when we should remember that it is always a mistake to rush to judgment? We have not seen this document yet; I await it with great interest. It is important that we have proper time to consider it. But we also have to bear in mind that in negotiations there has to be compromise on both sides. If those who have been ramping up the rhetoric in another place would only be calm for a week or two, we might come to a considered judgment.
Lord Callanan
I agree with my noble friend; a little calmness on all sides would help a lot. But it is amazing to see the number of people rushing to judge something that they have not read yet.
Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)
My Lords, to have a meaningful vote, the House of Commons has insisted that it must have full information on the legal implications, impact assessments and future economic projections, otherwise it will not be meaningful. None of that was available at the time of the last referendum. In the event of a logjam in Parliament, which seems at least possible, why will the Government not allow the people, in the light of all that information, to have the final say on this issue?
Lord Callanan
I set out in my reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, what information we will make available. Of course, the House of Commons needs to come to its judgment in the light of all the available information and studies, and we will provide that. But I reiterate that we will not hold a second referendum; we have already had one, the people reached their view and we are implementing that view.
Brexit: Withdrawal Agreement Scrutiny
Lord Callanan Excerpts(5 years, 6 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Boswell of Aynho (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.
The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, both Houses of Parliament will need time to scrutinise the content of the withdrawal agreement and the terms for our future relationship once agreed. The exact timings for the debate will be a matter for determination in the usual way. Select Committees in both Houses of course play an important role in that process of scrutiny and the Government are committed to facilitating that scrutiny.
Lord Boswell of Aynho
My Lords, while I am grateful to the noble Lord for his response, I hope he understands that the European Union Committee, which I chair, has done extensive work in this crucial area and has a duty to report on the withdrawal agreement and the framework for future relations in good time to inform the debate in this House and indeed the votes in the Commons. We cannot do this in a vacuum. It is the Government’s duty as part of their accountability to Parliament to support our work and not to frustrate it. So does the Minister agree that if Brexit is, at least in part, about restoring the sovereignty of this Parliament, the Government should set an example by engaging in a mature, constructive way with its committees, rather than, as Mr Raab has done, effectively refusing to give evidence? Does he further agree that, given that Mr Raab’s predecessor, David Davis, gave the committee a clear undertaking that Parliament should enjoy at least parity of arms with the European Parliament, it is extraordinary that we find ourselves in the situation where Michel Barnier is briefing MEPs almost daily and sharing draft texts while Select Committees in Westminster are kept in the dark?
Lord Callanan
We are of course fully committed to facilitating the work of the committees. The Secretary of State has made 10 parliamentary appearances in the nine sitting weeks since his appointment. Deputy Ministers have given evidence on over 40 occasions to a range of committees, and I know that the Secretary of State has appeared once in front of the noble Lord’s committee and has committed to appearing again when we have a deal and something to report back on.
Lord Soley (Lab)
My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, has just said, there is acute anger in this House and in the other House about members of Select Committees—I am a member of two of them—getting less information than Members of the European Parliament are getting from Mr Barnier. Why is it that, when we are supposed to be taking back control, there is this affront to the British Parliament, where we get less information than Members of the European Parliament?
Lord Callanan
I understand the noble Lord’s point, but I am not sure that he is correct. We published extensive details on the withdrawal agreement in March. The chapters on citizens’ rights and on the financial settlement have been published, and the details of the implementation period have been published—so I do not think that the European Parliament has access to any more information than this Parliament does. But obviously nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, and the danger of publishing some aspects, particularly with regard to the implementation period, is that they are already being re-discussed in the negotiations. But we will share as much information as possible, and extensive amounts have already been published. We have appeared in front of numerous committees and we will do so again once we have a final agreement.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend take the point that the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, could be briefed behind closed doors, as it were? The Cabinet leaks like a sieve but I suggest that members of the noble Lord’s committee would not—and it would help them, if they were so briefed, to advise us properly.
Lord Callanan
I am sure that the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, does not leak at all. We are committed to providing as much information as possible, but it is important that we protect the sanctity of the negotiations. Many EU member state Governments have also not been briefed on the final detail and compromises that inevitably will be arrived at. But when we are in a position to share as much detail as possible on the final agreement of course we will do so, alongside the appropriate economic analysis.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister simply does not understand the situation. Our friends in Europe, from day to day, understand where the negotiations are at, the nuance of the negotiations and the places where advantages may be taken. We are being taken back to documents produced months ago and there is very poor communication. Will he make a total commitment to ensure that the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, is fully briefed before we embark on the debate on the most important decision of our lifetime?
Lord Callanan
Of course we will make sure that the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, is fully briefed, as we will ensure that all Members of both Houses are fully briefed. When we have a deal, the Secretary of State will appear in front of the noble Lord’s committee, we will publish all the details of the deal and the appropriate economic analysis, and sufficient time will be made for debate in both this House and the other House before the meaningful vote.
Lord Bridges of Headley (Con)
My Lords, given the commitment by the Government to observe the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act and the process it follows—which, I believe, says that there should be 21 sitting days for Parliament to scrutinise the withdrawal agreement, as well as, obviously, the Motion that will need to be passed—what is the final date that the Government have pencilled in as the day by which Parliament must receive the withdrawal agreement if we are to leave, with it being ratified properly, by 29 March?
Lord Callanan
We have not pencilled in a final date. However, we are well aware—and have made the EU negotiators well aware—of all of the procedures that will need properly to be followed. The withdrawal agreement will be an international treaty but in the withdrawal Act, passed by both Houses, we are committed to the meaningful vote. We cannot ratify that Act without the appropriate say-so of Parliament in the meaningful vote and without the appropriate legislation being passed—and that will require proper scrutiny. The usual channels listen closely and are well aware of the timescales and constraints under which we are operating.
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, will the Minister revisit his answer to an earlier question? He implied that a draft withdrawal agreement had been published by the British Government, whereas in fact it was published by the Commission in March. Can he explain why Michel Barnier is able to give, week by week, detailed descriptions of the negotiations from the perspective of the EU—without, presumably, undermining its negotiating position—but it is impossible for British Ministers to do the same here, despite the assurance that was given in 2016?
Lord Callanan
The text was published by the Commission, but it was an agreed text. There would have been very little point in us publishing exactly the same text. We are committed to providing as much information as possible and will continue to do so. I am really not sure that it is the case that Michel Barnier is able to share any more details of the negotiations with MEPs or others than is happening in this country.
The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that a more collaborative approach—we wrote to the Secretary of State on 23 October with a reasonable and short list of information that we needed to help us prepare a timely report for this House—would help the Government promote an atmosphere that would allow a greater percentage probability of them getting the meaningful vote through this House?
Lord Callanan
Well, we are taking a collaborative approach on this. We have provided as much information as we are able. We cannot provide details of something that has not yet been agreed. As we discussed earlier, sections have been agreed and the “green text”, in the jargon, has been published and made available. There was extensive discussion around that. Ministers have appeared extensively at this Dispatch Box, in the other place and in front of Select Committees. The Secretary of State has appeared once in front of the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, and has committed to do so again when we have a deal. That is the same treatment that committees in the other place are receiving.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, would my noble friend set out what timetable he has agreed with the usual channels to discuss the 1,000 statutory instruments and the six primary Bills that have to be agreed by 29 March?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, two questions were asked. Perhaps the Chief Whip could indicate which question the Minister should answer.
Lord Callanan
I am happy to answer as many questions as we have time for. I do not know who the other Member was, but I would be happy to take a question from them afterwards. I do not agree with my noble friend Lord Tebbit. We think that the Commission is negotiating in good faith and we hope to reach an agreement. That is in the interest of both sides and we want to do so.
Lord Liddle (Lab)
My Lords, I hate to question the veracity of what the Minister said, but the truth is that the Prime Minister told the House of Commons that 95% of the deal was done. That includes a lot of the areas that were not resolved when the draft agreement was published in March. In addition, we know that work on the political declaration that will accompany the withdrawal treaty is ongoing. There has been no attempt to involve Parliament in the content of that declaration, even though some of it might be in square brackets. Will the Government come clean? Basically, they are trying to bounce the Commons into the argument that there is no alternative to what they have agreed except no deal, and they are trying to bounce us into that position, too.
Lord Callanan
I am afraid I disagree strongly with the noble Lord. There is no attempt to bounce anybody. Sufficient time will be made available for the debate. The exact process we need to follow was set down in the withdrawal Act. We will publish an economic analysis alongside the deal, and there will be extensive debate in both Houses. As I said, we cannot legally ratify the deal unless agreement is reached in the House of Commons through a meaningful vote and the appropriate legislation is passed. The more time we allow for debate and scrutiny before the meaningful vote, the less time will be available to scrutinise the legislation resulting from it, because we have a hard deadline of 29 March.
Brexit: Article 50
Lord Callanan Excerpts(5 years, 6 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will (1) withdraw their notice under clauses 2 to 5 of Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union, and (2) offer through the Council of Ministers continuing free trade under the World Trade Organisation, and residence and security to European Union citizens, before agreeing any financial settlement in the Brexit negotiations.
The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, the clear position of the Government is that our notice under Article 50 will not be withdrawn. We will be leaving the EU on 29 March 2019, and are negotiating to that timeline. We remain on track to deliver the withdrawal agreement and the future framework, ensuring that there is clarity about the terms of our exit and our shared ambition for the future relationship.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply, which suggests that the Government have not understood the superior strength of our hand in Brussels, or how to play it.
Are the Government aware that many states, including the United Kingdom, have unilaterally left international treaties some 225 times since 1945? So why do we feel bound by these clauses of Article 50, when they are being used against us?
Can the Government not even see that the—
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
Why do we not try to talk to the real people of Europe, who would benefit far more from the offers in this Question than would we?
Lord Callanan
That is a slightly strange question from the noble Lord, because of course if we withdrew our notice under Article 50 we would remain members of the EU—which the last time I looked at it, was not the policy of his party. Therefore his other options do not really hold water. We do not unilaterally abrogate treaties in this country. We are a law-abiding nation, we abide by our legal agreements and commitments; and the proper and correct legal way to withdraw from the EU is under Article 50, and that is the process that we are following.
Lord Garel-Jones (Con)
Does my noble friend agree that the Question from the noble Lord seems to be opening the way to a departure from the European Union with no deal at all? Is it not clear that that is not supported not only by your Lordships’ House but by Her Majesty’s Government either?
Lord Callanan
The noble Lord’s Question would result in us remaining in the EU, if we withdrew our notification under Article 50. Of course the Government do not support a no-deal exit. We are preparing for that unlikely eventuality, as is the responsible thing to do, but we hope to negotiate a good and ambitious deal with the European Union.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, since the Question is from the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, I would like to know from the Minister whether there has been any progress since the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, told my noble friend Lady Northover last Wednesday:
“It is important that we review our procedures to ensure that individuals such as Tommy Robinson do not enter the heart of democracy”.—[Official Report, 24/10/18; col. 859.]
It was the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, who hosted this racist, Islamophobic character, who has multiple convictions, to a celebratory lunch after Robinson was released on bail—not acquitted—on a contempt of court charge that has been referred to the Attorney-General, which concerns actions which threatened to derail the Huddersfield trials. Can the Minister tell me when we will see action to ban Tommy Robinson from this House, not least to protect House of Lords staff from having to wait on this man?
Lord Callanan
My Lords, as far as I am aware, the Government have no policy on the dining companions of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson. I understand that the opinions of the House were made very clear last week but ultimately this is a matter not for the Government but for the House authorities.
Viscount Waverley (CB)
My Lords, to return to the Question on the Order Paper—if the House will allow me—do the Government expect to adopt a differing negotiating position on Brexit as a result of the significant number of states which are querying the terms we have with the WTO?
Lord Callanan
No, our negotiating position remains exactly as set out in the White Paper.
Lord Bridges of Headley (Con)
My Lords, back in June the Prime Minister assured us that the transition period in the withdrawal agreement would be time-limited, saying that it would give,
“everyone the certainty that this will not go on for ever”.
Last Monday, however, the Prime Minister told Parliament that we need,
“to create an option to extend the implementation period”.—[Official Report, Commons, 22/10/18; col. 47.]
Given that the Prime Minister wants to bring certainty to the situation, how does the option to extend the transition do that?
Lord Callanan
As the noble Lord will be aware, the extent and length of the implementation period was agreed. It was green text in the withdrawal agreement. I understand that the possibility of extending it has been raised in the discussions in Brussels but no agreement has been made and discussions on such matters are continuing.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, since we know that Brexit is valued by the Government at only 50p—which is what they are going to produce on exit day—the question just raised about the WTO schedules is vital. We understand that only 14 of the deals that we have as part of the EU have so far been rolled over. The prospect of the crisis if we crash out without a deal is so serious that is it not time that the Government started paying more attention to getting a deal which is good for the country and acceptable to the House of Commons, rather than spending £150 million on consultants on how to deal with no deal?
Lord Callanan
We are able to multitask as a Government and we are doing both. We are concentrating all our efforts on getting a good deal but we are also mindful that it may not be possible to get a deal and therefore we are stepping up our preparations for no deal. Actually, the EU is doing the same. I really do not understand the position of the Opposition that we should do nothing at all to prepare for something that has a possibility of happening.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, is my noble friend able to tell the House whether we have sufficient parliamentary time to scrutinise the primary legislation and the up to 1,000 Brexit-related instruments that the House has to consider and pay proper scrutiny to before 29 March?
Lord Callanan
Of course, we will not know how much time we have until we actually get a deal but I am sure the Leader and the Chief Whip are paying close attention to the words of my noble friend.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)
Is it not helpful for the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, to raise these matters in this House? The Government are under attack from all quarters for their handling of the EU negotiations. Indeed, we are now talking about it being six years before the deal is finally completed. It is time that the Government take note of what the people and the press are saying and get on with the job and get us out.
Lord Callanan
We are taking note of what everyone in this House and in the media are saying. I can assure the noble Lord that we are getting on with the job. We are trying to negotiate the best possible deal and arrangements for our departure from the European Union.