Report of the Iraq Inquiry

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and David Winnick

Wednesday 6th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is right: one of the most powerful points in the report is that Blix should have been given more time. That argument was advanced at the time, but the way in which it is expressed by Sir John gives it even more force.

I do not think I can stand here and honestly say that all the changes we put in place make mistakes like that impossible. At the end of the day, Governments and Cabinets must make judgments on the basis of the evidence in front of them. The National Security Council, given the way in which it is set up, provides a better forum when it comes to making decisions, listening to arguments and hearing expert advice. I think that that makes it more difficult to press ahead if you cannot take expert opinion with you, although, of course, in the end Cabinet Ministers can decide.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

However wrong it was to take military action on the basis of false intelligence—and I accept my responsibility in that I voted for military action—were not many of us very much influenced by Saddam’s notorious record? His aggression against the Iranian state, a war that lasted eight years, took the lives of hundreds of thousands of young people on both sides, but he was not satisfied with that, and two years later the aggression against Kuwait resulted in the first Gulf war. Would it not also be totally wrong to conclude that had it not been for this invasion—which, as I say, should not have taken place, because it was based on false intelligence—everything would have been fine in the middle east? Look at what is happening in Syria, where we did not intervene—rightly, I believe, and again I was influenced by what happened in relation to what we are discussing now.

[The Prime Minister]

I do not always agree with the hon. Gentleman, but I think he has put it very well. Saddam Hussein had an appalling record. He had gassed the Kurds, he had murdered his own people, and he had invaded his neighbour. He had used weapons of mass destruction in the past, we were being told that he was developing them again for the future, and we were being asked, on the basis of that, whether we could really risk leaving him in place and leaving those programmes in place, given the heightened risk post 9/11. Those were all very strong arguments, and I think it is worth recalling that.

It is also worth taking account of the hon. Gentleman’s other point. Who knows what would have happened if Saddam had still been in place at the time of the Arab spring, but it is quite possible to believe that his reactions to his own people would have been rather like the reactions of President Assad to his own people, which, I would argue, have perhaps done more to foment terrorism and cause extremism than anything else in the last decade.

EU Council

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and David Winnick

Wednesday 29th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Certainly no one is more impressed by the strength of the British economy than I am. It is strong, and it has a lot of advantages and many key industries that are admired the world over. We have to recognise that it will be a hard and difficult negotiation in many ways, because we are negotiating with a bloc of 440 million people, but we should make the most of our strengths. I would avoid tariffs, though. The idea that tariffs can be compensated for in other ways is quite dangerous talk. If we think of the car companies and others that want to come and invest here, they do not want to do that and then pay tariffs as they sell into the European single market, so I think tariffs are, on the whole, to be avoided.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

The leave campaign undoubtedly made totally false pledges, which have all been exposed accordingly, but on the issue that has been raised on a number of occasions today, does not some of the responsibility for the result lie with the EU leadership, which showed no flexibility whatsoever over an issue that is certainly important in the area that I have the honour to represent—the issue of free movement of labour? EU law did not come down with the 10 commandments.

[The Prime Minister]

For once, I have great sympathy with the hon. Gentleman. That was why I chose to aim at the issue by saying that people could come here and work, but could not get full access to our welfare system for four years. That addressed the concern that his and my constituents have that there should not be something for nothing. The point that we have to understand is that European Union countries see the single market as consisting not only of the free movement of goods, people, services and capital. They see those things bound together, but they also see the single market as including the payments that countries make into the EU to strengthen the weakest members and those that have recently recovered from communism. Of course, one can try to negotiate amendments to these movements—and I did—but one has to think about that mindset as we go into the negotiation.

Panama Papers

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and David Winnick

Monday 11th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support, and I agree with what he says about the importance of enabling people to make money within the law; he is completely right that the rule of law is what matters overall. The simple point that I have often made, and which I will continue to make, is that of course it is tax evasion that is illegal, not tax avoidance. There are many ways that people avoid taxation, not least by putting money into a pension or an ISA, or by other perfectly legitimate ways of planning for their future, that of their family and all the rest of it. However, we have sometimes seen very aggressive measures—I mentioned some of them in my statement—such as putting properties in company envelopes in order to avoid paying stamp duty, where it is sometimes difficult for the Government to catch up quickly enough with the huge changes taking place. I think that a bit of leeway on that is necessary, but my hon. Friend is right: it is the rule of law that matters.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Does the Prime Minister not realise that there is a world of difference between the vast majority of our constituents who pay their tax in the usual way, it being deducted at source or by other means, and the very rich tax spivs who use tax havens for obvious reasons? That is why the accusation is made about them and the people I have referred to.

[The Prime Minister]

Of course there is bad practice, not least in some of these jurisdictions, and that needs to be dealt with. That is what tax transparency, the sharing of information, the registers of beneficial ownership and all the rest of it are about. The other thing to recognise that happened last week is that the £11,000 personal allowance came in, so people can now earn £11,000 before having to pay any income tax at all. That completed our work of taking 4 million of the lowest paid people in our country out of income tax altogether.

European Council

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and David Winnick

Monday 21st March 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Already, because of the action we are starting to take, the people traffickers are seeing some of their markets more difficult to operate, and some of the costs are going up. We need to finish the job. Europol can play an important role in that, as can the National Crime Agency and our co-operating with other European partners. We have to put these people out of business.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

On the domestic aspect of the Prime Minister’s statement, not once today has he shown understanding of why there was such a public outcry throughout the country over the Government’s intention to penalise the most vulnerable. He is becoming increasingly out of touch.

[The Prime Minister]

Having spent £42 billion on disability benefits when I became Prime Minister, that figure is going to go up to over £46 billion by the end of this Parliament. We will spend more on disability benefits. If we measure compassion by the scale of the benefits paid, there have been more in every year under this Government than ever under a Labour Government. Instead of coming here and castigating me, the hon. Gentleman should be castigating his own party.

UK-EU Renegotiation

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and David Winnick

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I have great respect for my hon. Friend, who I think wanted to leave the EU whatever came out of these negotiations, and I am sure he will make his arguments powerfully. Obviously, we must consider all the issues, and once the debate starts, people will want to look at all the alternatives. Would Britain be better off in a customs union arrangement such as that with Turkey? Would we be better off in a free trade agreement, such as that with Canada? Would we be better off in a situation such as the one the EU has with Norway and Iceland? I have started talking about some of those alternatives. I think the Norway example is not a strong one, because Norway contributes more per head to the EU than we do, and it has to take all the legislation passed in Brussels. I am sure that that will be an important part of the debate to come.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Does it surprise the Prime Minister that, so far at least, he does not seem to have persuaded any of the critics on the Conservative Benches about the virtues of his negotiations? He may have persuaded the Home Secretary, for reasons that we understand, but apparently he has not persuaded any of the other critics.

[The Prime Minister]

Maybe the hon. Gentleman can help me out—I don’t know. This is a very important issue for our country, but in the end it will not be decided in this Chamber. We will all have to reach our own conclusions, and if hon. Members passionately believe in their hearts that Britain is better off outside the EU, they should vote that way. If they think, even on balance, that Britain is better off in the EU, they should go with what they think. Members should not take a view because of what their constituency association might say or because they are worried about a boundary review, or because they think it might be advantageous this way or that way. People should do what is in their heart—if you think it is right for Britain, then do that.

Syria

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and David Winnick

Thursday 26th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

May I remind the Prime Minister that, two years ago, he was equally eloquent in telling us how essential it was to bomb the Assad regime? I believe that the decision taken by the House in 2013 was the correct one and that, had we followed his advice, the situation in Syria would now be even worse than it is. Does he agree that the crux of the issue for every Member of the House is this: would military action help to defeat ISIS? I happen to believe that the answer is no. I wonder how many Members really believe that it would make any difference at all in defeating this hated death cult.

[The Prime Minister]

I do not particularly want to re-enter all the arguments about chemical weapons use. All I will say is that I of course listen to the hon. Gentleman’s views, but I also think of the thousands of people, including children, who have been killed by Assad’s barrel bombs and chemical weapons since we held that vote. The hon. Gentleman asked the right question, however. Will this make us safer or not? Will it help to degrade ISIL or not? It is the view of our closest allies, our military, our intelligence experts and those responsible for our domestic security: all those people are saying that we should take this action, as part of a coalition, to help make us safer. That is why I am bringing forward this statement and, with the support of the House, I will bring forward a vote.

G20 and Paris Attacks

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and David Winnick

Tuesday 17th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

No, I absolutely do not. I hope the Leader of the Opposition will review his remarks. What happened in Paris was an attack. It was not a siege, hostages were not taken and demands were not set out. It was an attempt to kill as many people as possible, and when the police are confronted with that, they must be clear that if they have to take out a terrorist to save lives, they should go right ahead and do so.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Is the Prime Minister aware that those of us who are not persuaded, at least at this stage, that air strikes should be extended to Syria have no less hatred for the mass murderers who have carried out so many atrocities, the latest in Paris? We are not persuaded, not because we are pacifists or semi-pacifists—I am certainly not so and never likely to be—nor because of the internal politics of the Labour party, but because, as the Foreign Affairs Committee concluded, there does not seem to be a strong case for extending air strikes, and it will achieve little or nothing and simply make us feel good that we are doing something as a result of the atrocities.

Syria: Refugees and Counter-terrorism

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and David Winnick

Monday 7th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to the issue of children, who will be one of the priority groups of the 20,000 we will be taking. We have to be very careful in this regard, because many expert groups advise that there is a danger in potentially taking children away from other family members and groups, but I am sure that there are many orphaned children and children at risk whom we could welcome here. We have also looked at Save the Children’s proposal about the 3,000 Syrian children already here in Europe, and we will continue to discuss that. Again, major international organisations such as the UNHCR advise caution on relocating unaccompanied children, so we should be guided by the evidence as we make these very difficult decisions.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

In view of the crisis over the past few weeks, should not Germany be warmly congratulated on its act of humanity? In many respects, Germany has acted as the conscience of the European Union, and indeed of Europe as a whole. When the right hon. Gentleman next meets the Hungarian Prime Minister—no doubt he will—will he express our contempt for the remarks made by that creature and tell him that what is required is humanity and that it does not matter a damn whether the people who are trying to save their lives and their children’s lives are Muslim or not, because that is totally irrelevant?

Debate on the Address

Debate between Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton and David Winnick

Wednesday 27th May 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)]

As we meet today, we should start, as the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) did, by thinking of our incredible servicemen and women and all they are doing for our country around the world. Our sailors on HMS Bulwark are saving hundreds of lives in the Mediterranean. Pilots in our jets are serving over the skies of Iraq. In Ukraine, we are training local forces to help counter Russian-backed aggression. Our submarines, at sea for months on end, are maintaining our continuous nuclear deterrent. Our troops are helping aid workers with disaster relief in Nepal and running treatment centres against Ebola in Sierra Leone. As we consider this vast range of tasks that these brave people are undertaking, and many more, so we should recognise the extent of our reach and role in the world, and as the right hon. and learned Lady did, we should remember all those who lost their lives and those who were wounded in the campaign in Afghanistan. Our servicemen and women are the best of British, and so above all today we should thank them for what they do.

This Queen’s Speech is building on strong foundations. In the last Parliament we cut the deficit in half as a proportion of our GDP; we grew our economy by almost 10%; we created 1,000 jobs a day; we cut taxes for more than 27 million people; we helped more than a million people off out-of-work benefits; and we cut the youth claimant count to its lowest level since the 1970s. If the last Parliament was about a repair job, this Parliament must be about renewal. Behind this Queen’s Speech is a clear vision of what our country can be—a country of security and opportunity for everyone, at every stage of life. That is our ambition: to build a country where, whoever and you are and wherever you live, you can have the chance of a good education, a decent job, a home of your own, and the peace of mind that comes from being able to raise a family and enjoy a secure retirement—a country that backs those who work hard and do the right thing.

This is the Queen’s Speech for working people, from a one nation Government that will bring our country together. We have a clear mandate from the British people, a long-term economic plan that is working, a detailed and compelling manifesto, and we will not waste a single moment in getting on with the task.

Let me welcome the right hon. and learned Lady back to her place once again. She said that we had something in common. I was wondering whatever it could be, because of course she is far posher than I am. But it is certainly true that we have faced each other before. She told us last week that she is now the Mother of the House. I am not entirely sure what that role involves, but if she is the Mother and the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) is the Father, I think we may be in need of one aspect of the Queen’s Speech, which is the troubled families programme. Whatever our differences, she has always been a great parliamentarian, and if politics is about never giving up and always fighting for the things that you believe in, then the right hon. and learned Lady is a tribute to the best traditions of this House. From increasing maternity leave and maternity pay to ensuring more prosecutions for domestic violence through her Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act, she has made an outstanding contribution in advancing women’s rights, and as she stands down as deputy leader of the Labour party this year, she should be proud of all that she has achieved.

Let me also welcome the new Scottish National party Members of Parliament. It is good to see that the right hon. Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond) is back with us. For someone who has fought so hard to break away from Westminster, he seems remarkably keen on coming back to the place. I notice that he is now the foreign affairs spokesman for his party—for which I assume he speaks on issues relating to England, Wales and Northern Ireland. There is a serious point, however. The right hon. Gentleman has broken new ground. It is the first time that someone who has served as a First Minister of one of our nations has come back to the House of Commons, and whatever our differences—and there will be many differences—he will bring great experience to this House and to our debates.

The Humble Address welcoming Her Majesty’s Gracious Speech was brilliantly proposed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns). He described himself as a man with his future behind him, but I think after that great rapprochement, perhaps a future in the diplomatic service—or even, who knows, as Deputy Speaker of the House of Commons—awaits him. There are all sorts of possibilities. I am very grateful for the reference to the record I have set and the reference he made to Lord Palmerston. Given that I think I am right in saying that Lord Palmerston died in the arms of his mistress, I do not want to emulate all his achievements in the rest of his life.

As my right hon. Friend said, as well as being a strong Conservative, when it comes to American politics, as he explained, he is a devout Democrat. He named his son after Bobby Kennedy, he regularly goes to America to pray with President Carter, and as he told us, he keeps his daily schedule on track by wearing a Hillary Clinton wristwatch. I have met Mrs Clinton on many occasions, but I have never yet had the courage to ask whether she wears a Simon Burns wristwatch.

Many of us have had experience of exceptionally demanding constituents over the years, but my right hon. Friend may be able to lay claim to the most demanding constituent of all. This is a story he told me in the Tea Room many years ago, so I am sure that it is true. A constituent came to his office, looked at him longingly and said, “Simon, you are my Member of Parliament and I have my needs and wants.” History does not relate how he handled this, but I know that he has increased his majority over the years from 7,700 to more than 18,000. I can observe only that he is a very good and decidedly active constituency Member of Parliament.

My right hon. Friend’s other great addiction is nicotine. As Minister with responsibility for trains, he was criticised for travelling by car, but the real reason for that was not that he was a bad Minister, but that he was gasping for a fag. We may all wonder how we will be remembered in this place after we have gone. In my right hon. Friend’s case, I can confirm that there will be a permanent memorial in the Palace of Westminster. I refer, of course, to the smoking shelter that he established. He goes there on a daily basis, and it is said that when he has gone a plaque will be placed there, dedicated to the former Health Minister.

My right hon. Friend has achieved some remarkable things in this House. His private Member’s Bill on tackling football hooliganism made important changes in giving courts greater powers to stop hooligans travelling to games and gave police vital powers to deal with racist chanting. He served as a Health Minister in Sir John Major’s Administration, as well as being a Health and Transport Minister in mine. Over three decades, he has become loved in most parts of the Chamber, and his speech was in the finest traditions of the House.

The Loyal Address was brilliantly seconded by another Member who can also sometimes be found under the Commons smoking shelter—my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Mrs Murray). We hear a lot about identikit professional politicians who all look and sound the same and do not have any real experience of real life. Well, people certainly cannot say that about my hon. Friend. She came into politics because she believed that fishermen needed a voice when they were away at sea, and she has given them that voice. No one in the House knows better what to do with skate, hake, bass and bream, so I hope that she will give me some tips on how to deal with Salmond and Sturgeon—[Laughter.] Who says puns don’t work in the House of Commons?

My hon. Friend has the distinction of being the only Member in the last 20 years to get two private Members’ Bills through the House in her first term. One of them, the Deep Sea Mining Act 2014, will position Britain to make the most of an industry that has the potential to be worth £40 billion in the next 30 years. Most exceptionally, my hon. Friend has played a pivotal role in championing the safety of fishermen. No one knows more just how important that is, and my hon. Friend’s courage and resolve in the face of the greatest tragedy have been an inspiration to us all. She has the admiration and support of everyone in the Chamber, and her speech was in the finest traditions of the House.

The first priority of the Queen’s Speech is to help working people, and we are clear about what that means—more jobs, more apprenticeships, more tax cuts, more help with childcare and more opportunity to get a home of their own. That is the agenda for this Parliament. The last Parliament created 2 million jobs, and the Queen’s Speech will help to create 2 million more. The last Parliament saw more than 2.2 million new apprenticeships start, and the Queen’s Speech will help to create 3 million more. The last Parliament cut taxes, and the Queen’s Speech sets out plans for cutting them further. For the first time, we will legislate for a tax lock and a minimum wage tax guarantee. That means no increases in income tax, VAT or national insurance, and no income tax at all for those working up to 30 hours a week on the minimum wage. We have made the choice that we will make savings in public spending in order to keep taxes down. That is the right choice and it was backed by the British people in the election.

The last Parliament increased free childcare, and the childcare Bill in the Queen’s Speech will double free childcare for three and four-year-olds to 30 hours a week from 2017, which should save families £5,000 a year on average. The last Parliament helped more than 200,000 people buy or reserve a property, and the housing Bill in the Queen’s Speech will extend the right to buy to housing association tenants, so that more people have the security of owning their own home.

In recent days I have noticed that some of the candidates for the Labour leadership seem to have discovered a new word—“aspiration”. Apparently that has upset John Prescott, who went on television to explain that he does not know what it means. Well, I am happy that we will spend the next five years explaining what it means and how vital it is to everyone in our country. If Labour Members truly believe in aspiration, they will vote with us to cut people’s taxes so that people can spend more of their own money as they choose. If they truly believe in aspiration, they will vote with us to cap welfare and use the savings to fund more apprenticeships.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman is talking about “one nation” and the rest of it. How does he justify what is now being proposed, namely—this has been widely reported—the £12 billion cuts in so-called welfare, which will hit the disabled and the most vulnerable people in our society? It is shameful. The Prime Minister should recognise that if that were to go ahead, it would create a battlefield situation in many parts of our country, and the responsibility would be on him.

[The Prime Minister]

What I say to the hon. Gentleman is that in the last Parliament, we found £20 billion of savings in welfare. We should be doing this, because the alternatives are to put up taxes for working people or to make deeper cuts in public spending programmes such as health or education. The right answer is to get the country back to work, find the savings in welfare and make sure that we keep people’s taxes down. That is the choice we made at the election and that is what we will deliver in government.