Armed Forces (Redundancies)

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts

Tuesday 15th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

I am grateful, Mr Speaker.

The Opposition need to ask themselves why we have to make those reductions. It is because of the incompetence and the economic inheritance that they left behind. We will set out the programme of reductions in staff—the 17,000 mentioned—over the next five years. There was a great deal of inaccurate information in the newspaper story about the RAF trainee pilots. They are being briefed individually and collectively on the specific proposals that affect them. It is appropriate that that happens in private, not on the Floor of the House of Commons.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

The events of the past 48 hours are sad, sorry events at which we should all express some regret, not least in the case of the individual who is serving his country in a hot war on the other side of the world. Does the Secretary of State accept that such events have a resonance beyond the units, and indeed, beyond the services, in which they occur? Does that not place an enormous obligation and responsibility on him and his fellow Ministers—to some extent discharged by the fact that he has come to the House personally to respond to the urgent question—to ensure that everything possible is done so that something of this kind never happens again?

RAF Leuchars

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts

Tuesday 25th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

I am glad to have the opportunity to initiate the debate on the future of Royal Air Force Leuchars, which lies near St Andrews in my constituency of North East Fife. A number of other hon. Members have indicated a wish to make short interventions, and I am happy that they should do so. In addition, I have the authority of the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) to say that he supports the campaign for the retention of the base.

I want to begin with the recognition of the professionalism and commitment of the men and women who serve at RAF Leuchars, who in recent weeks have endured a period of unnecessary anxiety. I particularly wish to pay tribute to those members of 111 Squadron, whose time at Leuchars will come to an end in March, and who have served the defence interests of the nation with distinction and effectiveness. The reason why I say “unnecessary anxiety” is this. I believe that the case for the retention of RAF Leuchars is overwhelming. In short, Leuchars is in the right place at the right time and doing the right job. Geographically, it is uniquely positioned to fulfil the responsibility for the air defence of the northern half of the United Kingdom, a responsibility which, even as we have this debate, it fulfils 24 hours a day. In particular, that responsibility now has to deal with the terrorist threat, which is recognised in the strategic defence review as a tier 1 threat, and therefore one against which the most serious precautions need to be taken.

[Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab)]

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that that contribution has been further strengthened by the £27 million investment in the runway, the designation of Leuchars as the home base for the Eurofighter Typhoon squadrons, and the excellent performance of the quick reaction alert force? In other words, RAF Leuchars is a strategic necessity for the effective defence of the UK.

[Sir Menzies Campbell]

I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman, and I shall come to all the elements he referred to in a moment.

Why was Leuchars chosen? It was chosen to fulfil the responsibilities that the hon. Gentleman has just described, and because 80% of the Scottish population lives within 80 miles of Leuchars. Aircraft from RAF Leuchars can be over Edinburgh and Glasgow, the two major cities of Scotland’s central belt, within a matter of a few minutes. Leuchars also has the capacity to protect the two most sensitive installations within that area: the nuclear power station at Torness, and the Trident submarine base at Faslane. But we would do wrong to consider that the responsibilities of Leuchars extend only to Scotland, because the arc of responsibility of this air defence base extends far into northern England—as far as Sunderland, some have said—covering substantial populated areas.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Is it not the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s understanding that the coverage also extends as far as Northern Ireland? I believe that it does, but perhaps he could give confirmation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Menzies Campbell]

I have been approaching this matter on the basis of the speed of deployment within certain arcs. I understand that the approach is to take the base as the centre and then draw a circle, but there is no doubt that, because of its operations over the sea, there may well be occasions when RAF Leuchars would be deployed for the purpose of protecting interests in Northern Ireland.

I have heard no strategic argument for the closure of RAF Leuchars. The strategic case for its retention is exactly the same as the strategic case for its selection for the role that it now plays. It has been chosen to be the home of three Typhoon squadrons, one of which, 6 Squadron, is already in place there. The case stood up on 6 September, a few days before one of the last surviving air shows, which drew a crowd of some 50,000 people. That made it the second largest non-sporting event in Scotland—the largest is a rock festival entitled T in the Park. The fact that 50,000 people are able to go and want to go is a reflection, of course, on the base’s geographical position adjacent to the main centres of population.

RAF Leuchars was chosen for its role because it has ready access to training areas over land and over the North sea. It was chosen because the local weather—its particular climate—is very suitable for flying operations. As the hon. Member for Glenrothes (Lindsay Roy) said, Leuchars has been chosen to perform two essential components of the quick reaction alert, or QRA. The first is to protect northern Britain from unwelcome and illegal intrusion into United Kingdom airspace, which it is called upon to do on an almost regular number of occasions as other air forces seek to determine the state of readiness of the Royal Air Force to defend the UK’s airspace.

The second part of the QRA is the duty that RAF Leuchars has to protect us from terrorist attack from the air and stop any malign effort to do damage to the fabric or population of the United Kingdom. Only a few years ago that possibility would have been thought so remote as not to be regarded but, unhappily, it now has to be given more serious consideration because of the attack on the twin towers and its consequences.

RAF Leuchars was chosen, therefore, because the established strategic considerations were favourable, and they remain so. It was chosen because the fact that 80% of the Scottish population live within 80 miles demonstrates that it provides the immediacy of protection required. As 111 Squadron, to which I have referred, comes to the end of its service at Leuchars, 6 Squadron will take over. The 111 Squadron has been flying the Tornado F-3, an aircraft that has given us valiant service since its introduction. It is to be replaced by the Typhoon, formerly the Eurofighter, the most modern and up to date of aircraft available to the Royal Air Force.

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

The right hon. and learned Gentleman is making an extremely strong case for the retention of Leuchars, which the Scottish National party supports. May I ask him to ensure that we do not allow the Government to play Lossiemouth off against Leuchars and to make the case for the retention of all the capacity we have and against the overall reduction of the RAF footprint in Scotland?

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Menzies Campbell]

I am an advocate for my constituency, but I am also an advocate for the proper disposition of defence installations throughout the whole of Scotland. As the hon. Gentleman knows, when there have been occasions at Lossiemouth and opportunities for joint political action in Scotland, the leader of the Liberal Democrats in Scotland, Tavish Scott, has been present. The hon. Gentleman allows me to make another point, which is that the case for Leuchars and its retention is supported by members of all political parties and of none. I shall refer to that a little further when I come to discuss the impact on the local community. As 111 Squadron, flying the Tornado, has disbanded, 6 Squadron, flying the Typhoon, will take over. It is already fulfilling the responsibilities of the quick reaction alert. At new year, one of the Typhoons had to be scrambled to fulfil the obligation of the QRA. Between them, the two squadrons are working up to the point at which 6 Squadron will resume responsibility and 111 Squadron will stand down.

Leuchars is also a centre of defence excellence. Apart from 6 Squadron and 111 Squadron, it houses 71 TA Engineer Regiment—I know that will interest you, Mr Deputy Speaker, because of your interest in the Territorial Army—58 Squadron RAF Regiment, 612 Auxiliary Surgical Squadron, recently back from Afghanistan, the Universities Air Squadrons in Scotland, the air cadets and mountain rescue. Shortly, in March 2011, No. 6 RAF Force Protection Wing will accompany 58 Squadron to Afghanistan. I take this public opportunity to wish them Godspeed and a safe return.

Of course, the speculation has brought about great uncertainty in the local community. An economic impact study is in the course of being prepared by Fife council and I understand that it might be published within the next few days. I shall ensure that the Minister receives a copy hot off the press. We all know that the closure of any base has an impact, but let me illustrate the nature of the impact to which the closure of Leuchars might give rise. In the Leuchars primary school, more than 80% of the children come from RAF families, and in the nearby village of Guardbridge, a substantial percentage of the children are also from RAF families. There is a long history and tradition of integration between the base and the local community, with a heavy accent on charitable activity, all of which helps to create a bond of friendship and respect between community and base. A new community centre has recently been opened outside the wire so that it can be available to both military and civilians. I had the honour to open it in October of last year. A little more mundanely, but of great practical assistance, during the recent snowstorms, personnel from RAF Leuchars were deployed to Edinburgh to help to clear the environs of hospitals so that patients and ambulances could gain easier access.

The arrival of 6 Squadron did not take place without some consequences, which are to be found in the costs. As the hon. Member for Glenrothes said, the runway has been resurfaced. A new building programme has nearly been completed and I saw evidence of that on Monday when I visited the base in the company of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. Reasonable estimates are that some £40 million has been spent on RAF Leuchars in recent years and as part of these preparations. In addition, there is intensive training not only for air crew but for engineer and ground support. Leuchars is also to be subject to additional investment in information technology for the purpose of improving communications, which are so essential to the successful deployment of military force.

Ministers have consistently said that decisions about Royal Air Force bases will be made on sound defence principles. I have asked myself, and I ask the Government, what sound defence principle justifies reversing the recently made and paid for decision to deploy three squadrons of Eurofighter Typhoon at Leuchars, confirming Leuchars as an essential component of the UK’s air defence? That responsibility has for many years been fulfilled from that base with professionalism, commitment and distinction. I have an alternative principle to offer the Ministry of Defence: if it’s not broke, then don’t fix it.

Armed Forces Bill

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts

Monday 10th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

I would like gently to correct my hon. Friend’s statistics: complex post-traumatic stress disorder can emerge up to 14 years afterwards; 14 is not the average figure, and in fact it is often much earlier than that. However, he is correct that there is a time spectrum involved here, which is why it is essential that we have in place mechanisms to deal not only with those who present acutely, but with those who present at a much later date. We shall be undertaking further work and research to ensure that the mechanisms we put in place to deal with that are fully informed by the objective evidence of the science of the day.

I reiterate what I have said in the House before: we are seeing a modest increase in the number of cases of PTSD. We have seen them related to conflicts as long ago as the Falklands; we have seen them from the Gulf war; and we are bound to see them from Iraq and Afghanistan, and if we are not able to deal with those issues and put in place the mechanisms for dealing with them adequately, we will let down not only those who have put themselves at risk for our country’s security, but the country itself. As I said before, I believe that still in this country mental health is too much of a Cinderella service in health care in general. We must not allow that to happen in the armed forces, especially for those who have been willing to sacrifice themselves for us.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

I am most grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way; he is being characteristically generous in doing so. He will be aware that the Bill places upon him a duty to lay a report before the House of Commons on health care, education and housing, and that he has a discretion to go beyond those topics—that is expressly provided for. In view of what he has just said about health care being a Cinderella subject, would it not be appropriate to put it in the Bill as a topic upon which he has a duty, like other duties, to report in express terms to the House?

[Dr Fox]

It is clear that the Government intend such a report to include health care, housing and education. However, my right hon. and learned Friend will not be surprised to hear that I would happily be tempted into other areas within the discretion that the Bill allows. That is an absolute minimum. The country would expect us to look at wider and interrelated issues, if we are to offer the degree of scrutiny that the House and the country would want on this subject.

Clause 2 provides for what the Secretary of State must cover in his report, and as my right hon. and learned Friend said, effects on health care, education and housing will normally be addressed in it. There are perennial issues that I believe will always be important to the service and ex-service community, and those are among the foremost. Other issues will emerge at the time, so the Bill provides for flexibility, and I will want to consider other issues as they emerge.

There is also the question about who is covered in the Bill. The Bill refers to a broad span of people. The total number of serving and former personnel and their families is about 10 million—one in six of the population of this country. For ex-service personnel, the Bill specifies an interest in those who are resident in the UK. Again, that does not prevent a Secretary of State from covering relevant issues for those who live abroad, although many aspects of their lives would be matters for their own Governments.

The Bill—rightly in the Government’s view—says little about how the annual report will be prepared, but as I said in response to the right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), we intend to consult widely and to ensure that there is rigour and independence in the information that is ultimately put before the House through the Secretary of State’s report. My intention, as Defence Secretary, will therefore be to consult widely with interested parties, inside and outside Government, in preparing a report. Charities and devolved Administrations will have much to contribute, as too, no doubt, will Members of the House of Commons.

I also believe, however, that the report will evolve over time. We are breaking new ground, and we will learn from experience, listen to comments and move forward together in a positive way. I am clear that that is the right way to proceed, rather than making the legislation excessively prescriptive.

The Bill also contains a group of clauses that will further buttress the independence and effectiveness of service police investigations. I am delighted that shortly before Christmas the High Court gave a strong endorsement of the ability of the service police to investigate, under the Armed Forces Act 2006, the most serious allegations. Nevertheless, we want to be sure that the independence and effectiveness of service police investigations have all the safeguards we can reasonably provide.

The first clause in the group places on each of the three provost marshals—the heads of the service police forces—a duty to ensure that service police investigations are carried out free from improper interference. The second clause provides for the service police to be inspected by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary. The inspectorate has previously inspected the service police on a voluntary basis, but the clause places an obligation on it to carry out inspections of the service police and lay its reports before Parliament. The third clause provides that the three provost marshals will in future be appointed to their positions by Her Majesty the Queen. Once again, that recognises and reinforces their independence from the service chains of command when carrying out investigations. In making these changes, we seek to ensure that the service police will continue to carry out to the highest standards their role as a part of the armed forces but one that is independent of the main chains of command, and I believe that the provisions in the Bill will do just that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Murphy]

The fact is that, in previous years, in very difficult circumstances, the support available to our armed forces increased year on year—through pay, pensions and improvements in housing, health care and much else besides. If the hon. Gentleman’s challenge is that we did not do enough, of course there is always a challenge to do more, but it is difficult to demand that we should have done more to support the proposals that he is supporting today. He has to be a fiscal hawk or a fiscal dove on these issues; he cannot be both in the same intervention.

[Sir Menzies Campbell]

I hope that the shadow Secretary of State will not complain too much if I chide him a little for giving the impression that the morale of the armed forces has been dealt with in the way that Sir Michael Moore indicated. My regular contact with the armed forces is with RAF Leuchars, about which, as the shadow Secretary of State knows, there has been some unwelcome speculation. The professionalism and the intensity of the training that is performed there is unmatched. In the past week or so, the first Typhoon aircraft was scrambled from RAF Leuchars so that it could fulfil its responsibilities under the quick reaction alert. One has to be very careful about translating the remarks of someone who has an obvious, though quite legitimate, interest into general comment and criticism of the armed forces.

[Mr Murphy]

The right hon. and learned Gentleman makes a typically fair point in his own careful way. He is right to say that the constant challenge for politicians of all parties is how we support our armed forces and maintain their morale. My contention is that the Government have missed opportunities, and in Committee we will table amendments seeking further improvements to a Bill that makes sensible but modest improvements to our armed forces.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts

Monday 13th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

It is very clear that the aim is to have the threat degraded and the capability of the Afghan national security forces increased, so that they can take control of their own security. Some assistance with training and support may be required, but it is very clear—President Karzai has repeatedly made it clear—that it is the wish of the sovereign Government of Afghanistan that they take control of their own security by the end of 2014.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

What possible strategic advantage would there be in the closure of RAF Leuchars in my constituency, when the base is uniquely geographically positioned to provide comprehensive air defence for the northern half of the United Kingdom?

[Dr Fox]

My right hon. and learned Friend makes an eloquent bid for the retention of the base in his constituency, as he has also done in private. As I said in answer to an earlier question, the basing review will be based purely on what gives Britain the best defence network. We will be taking those decisions over the coming months. We understand that there will be other considerations but, in determining our bases, it is the Ministry of Defence’s job to consider what makes Britain safest.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts

Monday 8th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

Leaving aside the assumptions in the hon. Lady’s question, which are an argument in themselves, her key point is whether the incidence of post-traumatic stress disorder is related to tour length or tour frequency, or a combination of the two. Evidence increasingly tends to suggest that the key element is the length of the tour rather than the frequency, and that, of course, will instruct the Government’s thinking.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

Does the Secretary of State accept that mental health issues sometimes come to light only as a result of self-referral and that the culture of all three services is against such self-referral? Is one way of dealing with that to ensure that, during training, people—and not just those who will be in the chain of command—accept and understand the possibility of mental health issues arising, and that they are willing to recognise that and, if necessary, to take steps to deal with it?

[Dr Fox]

That is true for not only the armed forces but society in general. Only when we, as a society, remove some of the taboo of mental illness will we properly unlock the ability to deal with it successfully. My right hon. and learned Friend is correct that we need to look at people’s willingness to self refer, and that process is made easier if they can contact a helpline run by members or ex-members of the armed forces, in whom they are likely to be able to place greater faith.

Defence Treaties (France)

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

The contracts are currently under discussion, and it is a matter of commercial sensitivity exactly what the numbers are. We do, however, believe that it would save very substantial millions for the United Kingdom to go ahead with the facility in France.

On the question of this being an integrationist measure—far from it, because we are able to understand the difference between geographical Europe and political Europe. What we want to see is a partnership with another sovereign nation on the European continent, not supranational control from the European Union.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

The Secretary of State will be aware from his frequent visits to Washington that there is a sense in the United States, particularly since the end of the cold war, that European nations have not been willing to do enough for their own defence. Are not these treaties, with the purpose of maximising joint capability, an effort to answer that criticism?

Aircraft Carriers

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts

Monday 1st November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. He has a history of 30-odd years of service as a first-class educator of young people in Fife. I also want to place on record my tribute to Professor Bill McIntosh and all the staff at Carnegie college, and, indeed, those at Adam Smith college, for their work with the dockyard in helping to create 350 apprenticeships in a highly skilled work force.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

This is a non-partisan, all-Fife occasion, and I would like to support the hon. Gentleman in his submissions to the House. He might also care to consider that HMS Ark Royal, which is unfortunately soon to be decommissioned, was recently the subject of a substantial programme of maintenance that was very successfully carried out at Rosyth dockyard. That is an indication of the modern capability of Rosyth to deal with such large-scale projects.

[Thomas Docherty]

The right hon. and learned Gentleman is absolutely correct to point out the cross-party support that the dockyard has enjoyed. We hope that this will be a bipartisan, measured debate, and I look forward to his continuing support in the months and years to come.

The UK Government’s recent strategic defence and security review produced a couple of significant outcomes on which I hope the Minister will be able to provide some reassurance. First, he will be aware of the uncertainty surrounding the near-term future of the work programme at Rosyth. A large part of the order book for the next three years was to be filled by the refitting of warships that the Prime Minister has indicated in the SDSR will no longer be in service. This is obviously causing consternation locally, as there is the potential for perhaps an 18-month hole in the work stream. I am sure the Minister will appreciate that it will be difficult for the dockyard to hold on to those vital employees for that length of time, and I want to ask him whether he is prepared to meet me and representatives of the trade unions to discuss how we can help to fill that void.

Secondly, we are still unclear about whether the so-called “cat and trap” system will be fitted on to HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, and, if so, when. Can the Minister confirm whether those decisions have been made? If they have not, will he tell us how soon they will be made? It is surely logical—not to mention providing the best price to the taxpayer—to fit them during construction, before the ships embark on operations.

Thirdly, can the Minister confirm when HMS Queen Elizabeth will enter operational service? Will she sail for any period without the joint strike fighter, or will she be delayed further if the JSF is delayed in arriving in service? Will the Minister also tell the House when he expects HMS Queen Elizabeth to have her first scheduled refit? Will it be in 2022, as originally scheduled? Will it be 2024, as has been inferred from the Prime Minster’s statement to the House? Or will it be even later?

The House will be aware that Ministry of Defence civil servants carried out briefings this afternoon, and there is some confusion about their content. I understand that Scottish newspapers have received certain information prior to its being given to the House. If the reports that the Ministry of Defence will award those refurbishment contracts to the United Kingdom are true, it is indeed great news. However, I am sure the House will agree that reports of this nature should be made first by Ministers to this House and not by officials in briefings to selected newspapers.

It is important that the Government be clear on the timetable for their plans so that the loyal work force in Fife will know when it can expect the first refit work to start. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Strategic Defence and Security Review

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts

Thursday 16th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

The right hon. Gentleman knows that my views are rather different from his, but I applaud his call for an open debate. On whether the funding should come from the defence budget as presently constituted or from some other source in Government, which does he believe to be the correct course?

[Mr Ainsworth]

I have said to members of the armed forces that to some degree that is academic because it all comes from the same pot at the end of the day. The understanding has always been, and the structure of the defence budget is, that the defence budget pays for the running costs of the deterrent and the Treasury pays for the capital costs of replacing the deterrent. If the budget were transferred without a dowry of some description to offset the costs, the issues would be pretty profound for the rest of defence capability. Which pot the money comes from is a matter of Government accounting. What I am saying is that if these pretty profound decisions are being seriously considered—if they are just about delay they do not make sense, but if they are about something else they are core to Government policy—then they ought to be discussed openly and not attempted through any sleight of hand.

I have gone on for too long and many hon. Members wish to speak. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] With the discomfort that there is on the Government Benches, I see that people want me to move on, so let me address one final issue—the welfare of our armed forces. As well as it being the duty of any Government to repay and honour the sacrifices of our armed forces, it is also essential to retain world-class forces. No matter how many fast jets, tanks or other equipment we have, they are nothing without the incredible people who operate them. We introduced many reforms when we were in government, including a sustained investment in accommodation, the doubling of compensation for the most serious injuries and the provision of greater access to education, housing and health care. As a Government, we were determined to honour our duty to those fighting on the front line and as a party we will support the Government in building on those achievements. That is why I am glad that they have adopted our election proposal of enshrining the rights of our service personnel in law, but so far we have seen no detail. When will the Minister present his Bill and what will it include?

I know that many Conservatives are concerned about what the coalition’s cuts will do to those in the most need of support. Does the Minister have the same concerns about the impact of those cuts on our armed forces? His party, and he personally, promised to increase the pay of the lowest paid in the armed forces so that nobody would be paid less than £23,000 a year—I am sure he will remember that—but the Government’s pay freeze will hit all those who earn above £21,000. It seems that not only the Defence Secretary is undergoing a transformation.

The review will be pivotal for the future of our nation and for our armed forces. It must be carried out in the right way, for the right reasons, as determined by our long-term strategic needs. No matter what the Defence Committee Chairman says, I know that he agrees that it must not become simply a cost-cutting exercise in which the Treasury calls all the shots. Sadly, the signs are not promising.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

I apologise to the House and to the Chairman of the Select Committee on Defence for not being present when the debate began. I was taken aback by the speed with which the previous business was completed.

I hope that I do not sound too censorious when I say that any member of the armed forces on active service watching our debate so far might feel compelled to say, “How we got here is less important than what we’re going to do now we are here.” To use the old cliché, we are where we are. People in the armed services want to know how we will provide a review that produces a coherent and cohesive outcome and allows them to have total confidence that they will always be fully equipped, well led and subject to mature and sensible political direction.

My views on Trident are well known, and, in the time available, I will not burden the House with them again, other than to the limited extent of saying that the attitude of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, publicly expressed by him and confirmed by the Chief Secretary, implies that Trident has de facto become part of the defence review.

[John Woodcock]

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?

[Sir Menzies Campbell]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will excuse me if I make a little progress first.

I listened to my hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces, who, with characteristic elegance, endeavoured to say that it was simply a matter of accounting. It is not a matter of accounting for the budget holder of a Department, out of whose budget the money must come, who knows that a request of the Chief Secretary for more is likely to be refused. When there are difficult decisions to make, such as the closure of bases, whether a particular capability should be maintained or whether infantry battalions should be disbanded, and one is aware of an obligation to find some £20 billion in the next period, it seems inevitable that the decisions about the conventional elements of defence are bound to be affected. To put it colloquially, four Trident submarines would be four elephants in the room.

In this country, we lack a proper review of nuclear policy. I cannot recall in the 23 years that I have been a Member a review conducted other than on the basis that we have always had four submarines since Harold Macmillan went to the Bahamas and persuaded Jack Kennedy that we should have access to Poseidon. It is argued that, therefore, we should have four submarines and the maximum number of warheads—at least potentially. I remember the days when the argument in the House was not about having a deterrent, but about whether a Labour Government in 1992 under Neil Kinnock would build the fourth submarine. That was of great significance to the constituents of the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock), to whom I shall briefly give way.

[John Woodcock]

I am grateful. I am also grateful that the Labour party’s position has changed, for which my predecessor, now Lord Hutton, deserves some credit. I will not often agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman about Trident, but is he aware that the report, published this week, of the Defence Committee, of which I am a member, suggests that Trident has de facto been included in the review in an unhelpful way through the budgeting arrangements that have been changed in recent weeks?

[Sir Menzies Campbell]

We must agree about that.

That takes me to the points that the Chairman of the Defence Committee made with great directness. I think that I am the last member of the 1997 Defence Committee still to be in the House. As the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) explained, the consultation that was carried out for that particular defence review was peerless. He outlined the number of meetings that the Committee held and the amount of detail into which it went. Indeed, I remember several occasions on which I could argue across the table, face to face, with John Reid, now Lord Reid, about issues that directly concerned the defence review and its outcome. There was one defect, which is now acknowledged. The Government of the day never published the foreign policy baseline. That is one of my criticisms of the current review.

My hon. Friend the Minister referred to a speech by the Foreign Secretary, but the national security strategy and a foreign policy baseline have not been published. I say with respect that if the review is to have a benevolent outcome, the House should be debating the foreign policy baseline and the national security strategy now so that we could, if I may put it a little ambitiously, offer some advice and exercise some influence over members of the National Security Committee.

My concern is mirrored by the comments of my hon. Friend the Minister. He said that if the Ministry of Defence had not proceeded at the same pace as the overall efforts to restore economic stability, we would have found ourselves given a sum of money and told to find a defence policy to fit it. My fear is that that is exactly what is happening. It is implied that the defence budget must be brought under control, to put it pejoratively, in the next five years, yet from what we hear from the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister, we will still be in Afghanistan in that period. Is it in the interests of morale and effectiveness to conduct such a wholesale programme during that period? Cutting programmes that are under review will incur penalties. Substantial sums of money will have to be paid out if we do not proceed with certain contracts. What account has been taken of that?

My anxiety can be summed up in my fear that we are at risk of being engaged not in a defence review, but in an expenditure review. To what should a defence review amount? Usually, it means a clear statement of foreign policy objectives, an analysis of the military requirements for achieving those objectives and a value-for-money analysis of the necessary resources. It seems to me that a series of decisions may emerge from the review that are not related to each other and that fail to provide the necessary coherence and cohesion not only for members of the armed services or politicians who have their responsibilities, but for the profile that we present to any potential adversary and—perhaps equally important —to our allies.

I have a constituency interest; I imagine that I am not alone in presenting such an interest to the House, and I do not expect my hon. Friend the Minister to respond to it today. On Saturday, I went to Royal Air Force Leuchars in my constituency. It was a battle of Britain airshow day and some 50,000 people attended. In the past, the base has had two squadrons of Typhoon with a third training squadron for Typhoon. It now has 71 Engineer Regiment (Volunteers). Many members of the regiment have been to Afghanistan and Iraq. The 58 Squadron RAF Regiment is training there to be deployed to Afghanistan next spring. The 50,000 people who visited the base on Saturday were compelled to do so because, last week, 6 Squadron was reformed as the first of three Typhoon squadrons, which, under current plans, is scheduled to be deployed to the base. The station is located in Scotland’s central belt, albeit the most attractive part—I would say that, wouldn’t I? It can provide the air defence for the whole of northern Britain.

Those of us with an interest in defence deplore the fact that its prominence in the minds of the British public is much reduced. I thoroughly supported the notion, which was effected under the previous Administration, that members of the armed forces could more regularly wear uniforms in public so that people had a clear and obvious identification with them. The argument for the continuation of RAF Leuchars is overwhelming. The command of the base is combined with the responsibilities of the Air Officer Scotland, who has important representational functions that are easily fulfilled from a base in the central area of Scotland. Were that base to be closed, there would be a substantial economic impact, as there is when any base is closed. The impact is felt on the communities that have grown up alongside the bases. However, in the case of Leuchars, I am confident that the defence case for its maintenance as a front-line air station is overwhelming. I therefore have every confidence that that view will prevail in the corridors of the Ministry of Defence.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts

Monday 13th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

There are two issues. First, why would we want to get involved in further joint co-operation? Clearly, economy of scale needs to be taken into account in the difficult budgetary environment. Secondly, who would the key partners be? In looking at key partners, we certainly consider operational effectiveness and those countries that are likely to deploy and to spend on the research necessary to get the capability we would want. Clearly, for such partnerships, the two front-runners are the United States and France.

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

Does the Secretary of State accept that there may be circumstances in which it is more effective to share responsibilities rather than equipment? Will he tell the House whether, as a result of his meeting in Paris last week, there was any discussion of the possibility of sharing responsibility for nuclear deterrence?

[Dr Fox]

We have repeatedly made it clear that we believe that having an independent nuclear deterrent is a vital part of the United Kingdom’s sovereign capability, and we intend to keep it that way. Where we can co-operate on technical matters with the French, without interfering with our sovereign capability in any way, it would make sense to do so.

UK Armed Forces in Afghanistan

Lord Campbell of Pittenweem Excerpts

Thursday 9th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)]

rose—

[Dr Fox]

I give way, for absolutely the last time, to my right hon. and learned Friend.

[Sir Menzies Campbell]

I think that there are many in the House who want to hear the Secretary of State and welcome the opportunity to do so. Indeed, I think we should be grateful to him for his generosity in giving way.

I want to take the Secretary of State back to the terms of withdrawal. The shadow Defence Secretary rightly referred to what General Petraeus has been saying recently, but there is another dimension—the decision of President Barack Obama, who is on record as saying that he intends to start withdrawing troops by June or July of next year. That decision, of course, is not unrelated to President Obama’s prospects for re-election: it is directly related to the electoral cycle. If President Obama fulfils his pledge, how does the Secretary of State think that that will be consistent with the outline of the British Government’s position which he has just given the House?

[Dr Fox]

The American Administration have made it very clear that they are talking about the beginning of draw-down from its very highest level some time next year. That will coincide with the period when the Afghan national army is greater in number than the ISAF forces, so there is an element of logic to that position. However, President Obama has also made it clear that it was important to send a signal to the Afghan Government that they needed to have an idea of a time scale within which they would begin to develop the skills that they will need to be able to take over control and governance of their own country. Indeed, many believe that since the President embarked on that approach there has been a renewed sense of urgency in Kabul about exactly how the security forces were to be trained and the rate at which that occurred.

I believe that the Taliban’s only realistic hope is that international resolve to continue the war will collapse before the Afghan Government themselves are effective enough to stand on their own. The message that we need to send from the House today is that that hope of the Taliban is an empty one. The steady development of the Afghan national security forces underpins the strategic collapse of the insurgent position. It is said by some that the Taliban have time on their side—that they just have to wait us out. To an extent, the opposite is true. Their window of opportunity to defeat ISAF before the establishment of increasingly credible and effective Afghan security forces has shrunk, is shrinking further, and will shrink further.

Our message to the Afghan people is a clear one, and it needs to be communicated by our deeds as well as our words. We are neither colonisers nor occupiers. We are there under a UN mandate. We are there as a coalition of 47 countries from across the globe. We are not in Afghanistan to create a carbon copy of a western democracy, and we are not there to convert the people to western ways. We seek the government of Afghanistan by the Afghans, for the Afghans. We insist only that it does not pose a threat to our security, our interests or our allies.

When it comes to the defence and security of our country, we are at our strongest when we speak with one voice—when we are clear about what we are seeking to achieve and have the support of this House, and the public, for that endeavour. I hope that today’s enterprise takes us one step closer to that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ainsworth]

That most certainly has the potential to encourage speculation. People will speculate that the helicopters have not been ordered—they will not arrive until 2012—because they will not be needed. That adds to the Government’s difficulties with their message on Afghanistan. Conservative Members condemned our policy and said there was a lack of foresight before they election, but they are now delaying decisions to order helicopters. They said one thing in opposition and say another thing in government, but they must expect to be held to account.

[Sir Menzies Campbell]

Is not the outcome of the defence review another element that will influence people’s perception of the Government’s intentions? I know no more than anyone else, but if, for example, there were to be a reduction in the number of infantry battalions, irrespective of our intentions, people will perceive that our capability for a longer period in Afghanistan is materially affected.

[Mr Ainsworth]

As the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows, we will have the opportunity to discuss the defence review and the future of our armed forces next Thursday, but there are some real concerns. Those who in opposition complained about the number of helicopters are delaying a decision on helicopter numbers now that they are in government. Those same people also said in opposition that we should have three extra battalions in the Army, but they now appear to be saying that we can take 5,000 or 10,000 heads out of the Army. That is a debate that we will have next week. I want our troops to come home as soon as possible, and I want pressure for progress to be put on the Afghan Government, but that must not be done at the price of giving comfort to the Taliban.

This week reports emerged—and they have been alluded to already today—that injured war heroes from Afghanistan and Iraq may be forced out of the Army. The Defence Secretary tried to suggest that this was a Labour policy, but it was not. Nobody injured would have faced compulsory discharge. That was made clear by General Richards and my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones),the then Veterans Minister, when they announced the Army recovery capability policy earlier this year. I hope that the Minister will tell us today whether the Government intend to force injured soldiers out of the Army. Those who have made these heavy sacrifices for us deserve our gratitude: they do not deserve to be treated in this way.

We have always said that the Government have our full support as they proceed to take difficult decisions in the best interests of our mission in Afghanistan and our troops who are doing a fantastic job. But the Government cannot expect to get away with false criticism, mixed messages and empty promises any longer. We have a duty to hold them to account.