Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 19th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I do not know if I am alone in being frequently asked by people, from time to time, “What is the point of an unelected House of Lords?” I now have the absolutely mind-blowing answer, which is to refer them to these two days of debate on this really difficult subject and the range of expertise which we have heard.

I am speaking because I tabled an amendment. That was last Friday, so some noble Lords may have actually forgotten what it said. It called

“upon His Majesty’s Government, in the light of the 32nd Report from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, to ensure sufficient time is available for consideration of amending stages of this bill, and to provide full support at ministerial and official level to the peer in charge of the bill for its remaining stages in the House of Lords”.

Despite the differences that we have heard in these two days of debate, there is a clear and absolute consensus across the House that the Bill is in need of amendment and further scrutiny.

I listened very carefully to the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, and I see her amendment. I am a little doubtful about how a Select Committee—which is not really a Select Committee because it is not going to produce a report; it is simply going to hear evidence—is going to change or alter the noble Baroness’s opinion on this matter, or indeed anyone else’s. However, it means we cannot actually start that task until 7 November, so we have lost some time.

As many speeches pointed out, none of us knows when and how we are going to die; none of us even knows when the end of the Session is going to be. So, between 7 November and the end of the Session, having listened to all the speeches and thinking of the number of issues that are going to have to be addressed, I venture to suggest that four Fridays for private Members’ legislation, unless we are going to completely destroy the prospects of other people with Private Member’s Bills, are not going to be sufficient time. It therefore seems essential that the Government provide time.

I understand why they do not want to do that: if I were in government and in the Prime Minister’s Office, I would be saying, “But that means we won’t have time for this, that or the other”. But this is an absolutely life-and-death issue and it is important that it is considered properly and put on the statute book, if it is to be put on the statute book, in a way that will satisfy my noble friend Lord Wolfson of Tredegar in his brilliant speech. He showed that what we are doing here is making legislation and we should put legislation on the statute book that has been properly thought through, which means that there has to be government time.

I happen to know that the Cabinet Secretary advised the Government that this should be treated in the way that all Private Members’ Bills dealing with matters of conscience are. Abortion, the death penalty and the decriminalisation of homosexuality were Private Members’ Bills that the Government took on board in order to ensure that they had proper time and were properly supported, and I do not—I was going to say “for the life of me”—understand why that should not apply to this Bill, having listened to these two days of debate. I suspect it might be because the Health Secretary and the Justice Secretary were opposed to the Bill—but we are told that the Government are neutral, and therefore I do not see why they should not provide that time in order to satisfy those people who have written to us on both sides of the debate.

I say to the right reverend Prelate the Archbishop of York, who threatened to vote down the Bill at Third Reading, that I hope he will think again about that. The expectations are sky high and to vote down a Bill that had not been properly considered or given enough time would put this House in a very awkward position, for no good reason. Our duty is to scrutinise the Bill, send it back to the House of Commons and ensure that we have the time to do a proper job.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, noble Lords may recall—but I will remind them in case they have forgotten—that I tabled an amendment to amend the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, because it seemed to me that the noble Lord wanted to turn this Bill into a government Bill and give it all the authority of a government Bill, with a Minister in charge, or by putting the noble and learned Lord in the position of being a Minister. However, I have listened to the noble and learned Lord and he has said—absolutely rightly, and I totally agree with him and the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson—that this absolutely should be, and should remain, a Private Member’s Bill.

I have also looked at the potential effect of the amendment to the commitment Motion from the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, who I think has approached the Bill with great energy, superb intelligence and good judgment, and has done great credit to the House. Having considered that and the state of play as it is now, I think it is right that I should withdraw my amendment so that we can move quickly on to other, more substantive matters. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment (to the amendment) withdrawn.

Mental Health Treatment: Waiting Times

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Monday 3rd February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I agree with my noble friend’s assessment of the impact of what is a totally unacceptable situation, particularly for children and young people. On the point about ensuring delivery locally, I refer your Lordships’ House to the NHS planning guidance, published last week, which not only confirms our commitment to the mental health investment standard but sets out an objective to increase the numbers of children and young people under 25 accessing services in the forthcoming year compared to 2019.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

Does the Minister agree that the long delays experienced by released prisoners in accessing necessary mental health care simply oil the revolving door of their return to prison? Will the Government give high priority to dealing with that problem?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

We are extremely aware of the point the noble Lord helpfully makes. The matter of severe mental illness in prisoners has come up repeatedly in Committee on the Mental Health Bill, and we will continue to work to address the points he raised.

Health and Care Bill

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 3 & Committee stage
Wednesday 26th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Carlisle]

My Lords, I recognise and respect the integrity and passion that underlie Amendment 297. However, I rise to agree wholeheartedly and briefly with those noble Lords and noble and learned Lords who have already expressed their significant reservations about it.

There are two problems in particular with that amendment. The first has to do with the many contentious arguments for and against any legislation permitting assisted dying, some of which have already been mentioned. Tempting though it is to rehearse some more of those, I am conscious not only of the time but of the fact that they have already been presented recently and at length, as we have been reminded by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, at Second Reading of the Assisted Dying Bill here in your Lordships’ House. The ongoing process of that Bill, however slow it may be, should not be undermined. We have also been assured that this is not primarily what Amendment 297 is all about. I might add that the terminology of that amendment is unhelpfully vague. “Vague” is a word that has already been used more than once in the debate today. For instance, we might ask exactly what is meant by “terminally ill” or “medical assistance”.

The second problem, which has already been persuasively argued, concerns the attempted use of this Health and Care Bill potentially, if not directly, to change the law on assisted dying. The proper place for any amendment of this kind should be Committee on the Assisted Dying Bill, not Committee on this Bill, which would be subverted were this amendment to be accepted.

With regard to Amendment 203 in this group, whether or not it is deliberately linked, it is evidently concerned to address the holistic needs of those approaching the end of their lives, and that includes, of course, talking about death. That is something that we would all wish to encourage. However, there is again an issue of vagueness in the amendment, as in Amendment 297. For example,

“wishes and preferences for the end of their life”

could include almost anything, from repeated albeit futile chemotherapy, through bucket list wishes, to assisted suicide. Who decides, and how, that someone lacks capacity for engaging in a conversation about their holistic needs? Who is a “relevant person”, as we have just been reminded by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay? Then, in proposed new paragraph (c), what does

“having regard to the needs and preferences recorded in such conversations”

actually entail?

Most of what is proposed in the amendment is already covered in End of Life Care for Adults: Service Delivery, NICE guideline NG142, which was published on 16 October 2019. Perhaps it would be simpler just to require healthcare professionals to meet the requirements of that guideline, which would address the heart of the amendment’s stated, and laudable, objective.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, it is a real pleasure to follow the right reverend Prelate and, given the similarity between his see and my name, I hope I may be able to slipstream some of his authority.

I entirely agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, and the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, that this is not a debate in which we should be having Second Reading discussions about the principle of assisted dying, and I shall absolutely not do so.

I start by saying a few words about Amendment 203. I was greatly relieved when my noble friend Lady Meacher immediately revealed it to be only a probing amendment, because I had taken the trouble of reading proposed new paragraph (b). This is not the occasion for me to indulge or deploy my inner Rumpole or Henry Cecil by telling your Lordships stories of frauds committed on families by greedy relatives and the like—although there are many to be found in the annals of the criminal courts, even from the time when I practised in north Wales. However, the words “another relevant person” are an absolute recipe for undue influence and ostensible but completely fraudulent carers. I am very surprised that my noble friend, for whom I have enormous respect, thought it right to present such a vague piece of drafting to the House on this occasion.

I am very concerned in relation to both Amendment 203 and Amendment 297 about parliamentary procedure and statutory integrity. I have huge regard for the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, who is one of our very greatest debaters in this House, and so I listened to him with great care. It has been an unusual occasion to hear him relying on a Liberal Democrat Peer in Scotland and the Scottish Parliament. I am not sure that I have heard him deploy that juxtaposition before—and I am pleased to see that he sees the funny side of that himself. However, I beg him, before Report, to consider whether he has got his concept right or wrong, for I would say that, conceptually, what he proposes is wrong.

I do not want to repeat what was said so clearly by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, and the noble Lord, Lord Moylan—it does not need to be repeated, and I would diminish it if I tried to—but there are a couple of points to add. One was alluded to very graphically by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan. If, as a rule, one could table an amendment simply saying that the Government—or anyone else, for that matter, as the noble Lord suggested—should present a draft Bill to Parliament, it would be impossible to control. Reference was made to the 200 amendments tabled to the absolutely extant Bill of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher—it is a living Bill and it can still be debated. It is extremely unfair to suggest, as one noble Baroness did, that those were wrecking amendments. Some of them may be, but the great majority of them are substantive amendments seeking to safeguard vulnerable people. That is one of the things that the private Members’ procedure is for. When a private Member presents a Bill to Parliament—and many have passed; it is not a futile gesture—it has to withstand the same parliamentary scrutiny that we give to the Government when they present Bills before Parliament, such as the police Bill, debates on which a number of us here have been taking part in recently.

Furthermore, let us suppose that the clause from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, was passed and that within the 12 months that followed the Government decided not to present a draft Bill to Parliament. I do not believe—though I may be disabused of this by greater judicial minds than mine—that the court would have the power, other than possibly to advise, to order the Government to present such a Bill to Parliament, because that would be a breach of the separation of powers. I do not believe that any judge, other than in a nightmare, would see themselves doing that.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

I will give way at the end of this sentence. It seems to me that what the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is proposing is simply not going to be effective, so what on earth is the point of presenting it?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I rise with some trepidation to take on the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, but could he just reference the point that I made that my amendment does not seek for the Government to produce a Bill? It is a draft Bill. There is no compulsion on the Government to give it time or anything else, and therefore no notion that one would go to the courts. What I am trying to do here is break the logjam. It is completely disingenuous to suggest that we have a Bill before us; we all know that that Bill is going absolutely nowhere, like all its predecessors.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

The noble Lord is trespassing on the old Social Democratic Party by using words like disingenuous. I will give him an example: some years ago, I chaired a Joint Select Committee of both Houses of Parliament dealing with the draft Mental Health Bill. That particular Bill was never enacted after our year of meetings and the report that we produced, but there was not a single person or NGO—including some that have been mentioned today—that did not believe that it was a parliamentary Bill. A Bill is a Bill is a Bill. In this Parliament we have draft Bills but not half Bills. That is my answer to the noble Lord.

I do not want to take up more time. I finish by saying that I think this is a completely misconceived proposal, both procedurally and, were we to come to it, on the merits.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I shall speak to both amendments but I shall speak first to Amendment 203, which, on the face of it, I am minded to support.

My reason for that—I hope this is not seen as a Second Reading speech—is that two years ago, just before Christmas, my mother contacted me and said she thought she had terminal cancer. She was taken to hospital two weeks before Christmas and died on Boxing Day, not of terminal cancer but of end-of-life COPD. I had no idea that she had end-of-life COPD, although I knew she had COPD. On Christmas morning, I was summoned to the hospital, and a junior doctor asked me what I wanted to do: “Your mother’s been a bit unconscious. What do you want us to do? Do you want us to wake her up? Do you want us to do anything?” That is not really the best conversation to have. The next morning, Boxing Day, I had almost exactly the same telephone call: “Please come to the hospital, your mother is very ill.” I said that I had had the same conversation yesterday. However, on this occasion I was summoned in and met a doctor who spoke to me with compassion. My father and I agreed that my mother should not be resuscitated. I had never had that conversation with her, but, when I went through her things, I discovered that she had completed a form that said: “End-of-life COPD. When in doubt, do not resuscitate.”

So, in many ways the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, is very attractive because it is surely right that, towards the end of their lives, people talk about what is appropriate.

Brain Tumour Research

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Thursday 19th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful for a briefing given by Professor Richard Gilbertson earlier today on the specific question raised by my noble friend, which is grants for brain tumours in children. The NIHR system is a gold standard that is envied by the world and does not necessarily need to be broken and restarted. However, the point made by my noble friend is a good one and we are looking at ways of ensuring that more and better recommendations for grants go into the system in the first place so that, basically, we can spend the money more quickly.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB) [V]]

My Lords, on 6 November this year, the Government spoke of developing quality research and funding through a successful partnership and sustainable alignment with the charity sector. When can we expect to see some results from that initiative, with work and funding to achieve those goals?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the work of the charity sector in medical research is absolutely fundamental to national progress in this area. However, it too has been hit incredibly hard by Covid. We are having a number of dialogues with medical research sector representatives on how we can help. There will need to be a short, medium and long-term approach to getting back to where we were at the beginning of the year. How we bridge the current funding gap is a source of enormous concern to the department and the NHS. I cannot guarantee that we can necessarily embark on exactly the same framework that we envisaged at the beginning of the year, but I can reassure the noble Lord that we are very committed to the research community and we engage with it regularly on how we can help.

Covid-19: Medically Vulnerable People

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd April 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

My noble friend Lord Lucas makes a completely reasonable plea. On a personal level I completely understand where he is coming from. I have elderly relations who I would like to see, hold, touch and socialise with. But, as I said, I cannot hide from the House that this virus is an extremely predatory killer that has in its sights particular demographic groups, including the elderly and in particular those with conditions. It would be wrong of me to mislead the House by pretending that there was an easy way out of this epidemic for those who the disease seeks to attack.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, given that some very healthy older people have mistakenly received 12-week lockdown letters, including inaccurate and anxiety-causing assertions that they have underlying medical conditions, will the Government permit an arrangement whereby the relevant GP practice can confirm or refute the issue of the letter and certify to that effect?

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Lord makes a very reasonable request. I have sought clarification from the department on this point, because his suggestion seems eminently reasonable, and as soon as I have a reply I will write to him and share the contents with the Library.

Organ Donation (Deemed Consent) Bill

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 23rd November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, I too join in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and indeed the two colleagues in another place he mentioned, on bringing this Bill to Parliament. His characteristic modesty meant that he did not remind us of his enormous experience of the National Health Service, in the management context before he came to your Lordships’ House, as a member of the Government and as a Member of this House. That experience gives us some extra reassurance about the integrity of the Bill and what it proposes.

Debates such as this raise serious, and sometimes acute, ethical dilemmas. I think the ethical dilemmas in relation to the Bill are strongly affected by the fact that this issue is about saving life, not ending it. As your Lordships know from previous debates, I take a very different view on issues that affect the ending of life. I am happy to support the Bill, because it seems to make an entirely positive ethical contribution to the debates we have on such issues, perhaps uniquely, in your Lordships’ House.

I know that repetition rarely improves the quality of any argument. However, the support for the Bill, repeated from all parts of this House, and from all walks of life represented here, provides further important affirmation for it. We know that we are a somewhat unusual institution in this House; if a Martian were to walk in and look at the rules by which we come here, we would not pass the Martian test. Nevertheless, where else in the parliamentary world can we hold such ethical debates? Where else do we hear the kind of evidence that we are hearing in this debate? We very recently heard a wonderful speech from the noble Lord, Lord Elder, who told us of the heart transplant he had over 30 years ago. As we have seen today, it left him a very fit person: he has climbed more mountains than most of us have looked at. I hope he has also been able to enjoy some of the more traditional Scots remedies for exhaustion and other concerns.

We have also heard evidence from my noble friend Lady Finlay, who has spoken about the changes to the law in Wales and how effective they have proved. I think she gave some reassurance to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Carlisle about the increasing transplant figures in Wales.

I also look forward to hearing the contribution from my old friend the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. She and I have known each other for many decades and I pay tribute to her determination. What she did in Wales on this issue was of great value, and I am sure she will provide very valuable evidence in a few minutes’ time.

That leads me to Wales. For many years I was an MP in a Welsh rural constituency and I am completely unsurprised that this system in the United Kingdom was first introduced in Wales. People in Wales tend to think more empirically than many in politics realise. Also, the devolution settlement in Wales, in which the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, played a very important part, has made it much easier to bring to the statute book changes such as this in matters not reserved to the United Kingdom Parliament. Wales has been able, as has Scotland in some things, to be a trailblazer on this issue and has provided a great deal of evidence.

My belief is that the system in Wales has worked very well. My noble friend Lady Finlay described the advertising campaign, which means that everybody in Wales, unless they spend 24 hours a day asleep, knows about this system and it is discussed in families, as well as in more public forums in Wales. It has worked very well and has widespread popular support, as it will have in England.

I turn to the duties of the medical profession and return to something that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said at the beginning of his speech. He told us that he is fortunate enough to have just been appointed as a member of the General Medical Council. I was a lay member of the GMC for 10 years, albeit in its former incarnation as a much more parliamentary-style body than it is now. At the heart of the General Medical Council—I am sure this is true of the much smaller and very distinguished current council—are strong and heartfelt debates about ethical matters. The GMC translates those ethical decisions made by the council into guidance for doctors. If you look at its website, you come very quickly to the guidance currently given to doctors on after-death care and organ transplantation.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that one of the most useful things he can do in his first few weeks on the GMC is to persuade it that that guidance needs to be expanded somewhat so that the section relating to cadavers, parts of which can be used for transplantation, are much more explicit and so that the genuine concerns about that area are addressed. When doctors breach such guidance, of course it should be treated as serious professional misconduct which can bring the most condign remedies against them. However, for doctors to know where they are in these matters, it needs to be set out more explicitly.

The ethical responsibility is laid firmly on the regulator, the GMC, which passes it on to doctors. I hope that the General Medical Council will recognise that what I hope will be the passing of this Bill and the creation of a new system in England as well as in Wales means that it must be very vigilant about the behaviour of doctors in this area. There have been some horrendous cases—such as the Alder Hey case, which has not been mentioned so far in this debate—that have made one a little cautious about presuming that doctors can always be assumed to behave with superb ethical judgment. Sometimes they fail, and they need a stronger regulator to protect the public and themselves from such failures. I add that one of the principles that was often discussed when I was on the GMC was the responsibility of doctors to report other doctors who fall below appropriate standards. That failure, too, can be serious professional misconduct.

With those slight reservations, I support the Bill strongly, and look forward to England, once again, following Wales.

Gosport Independent Panel: Publication of Report

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Wednesday 20th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

Does the Minister agree that it is particularly shocking that those who did not cover up—the brave staff who expressed concerns about what was happening—were ignored for so long? Does he agree that the culture of closing ranks among some medical staff should be regarded in itself as serious professional misconduct by doctors and others? Does he also agree that there should be training in the whole of the NHS which makes it easier for staff to identify the excessive use of opiates and to have action taken upon it?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

The noble Lord makes two excellent suggestions. His suggestion about whether cover-ups should count as serious professional misconduct will be something the regulators will want to consider, as is better training on the use and prescription of opioids. We have made some progress in recent years. The freedom to speak up guardians are in place, and we talked about the learning from deaths programme. There is also the duty of candour. They are clearly steps forward but the panel has exposed that we are still not there yet. The suggestions the noble Lord makes are good and serious and we will want to consider them.

General Practitioners: Workforce

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Monday 5th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness might be interested to note that in 2014, the number of GPs in specialty training was 2,671, and in 2017, it was 3,157—an increase of nearly 400. That is how we are filling the places.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

Is the Minister aware of the increasing number of inner-city general practices where the entire GP workforce consists of locum doctors because of recruitment problems? Does he agree that that is an expensive way to provide GPs, and one which diminishes the doctor-patient relationship?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I agree with the noble Lord: we need to crack down on agency and locum spend. That has been falling in recent years. The way we will fix this issue and the demand for general practice in a sustained way is to increase the number of GPs coming into the service, and, as I said, that is exactly what we are doing.

End of Life Care

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Tuesday 14th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I am sure the whole House will have been moved and instructed by the courageous speech that we have just heard from the noble Baroness. I look forward to the Minister’s response to it.

I pay my tribute to my noble friend—and indeed my very good friend—Lady Finlay for obtaining this debate and opening it with such skill. We in this House all benefit from her knowledge of palliative care, and indeed many of us have deferred on many occasions to that knowledge in quite specific circumstances.

It is a very good thing that we are able to debate the subject in this House and that so many noble Lords wish to take part. Indeed, I pay my tribute to the Government producing a document called Our Commitment to You for End of Life Care: The Government Response to the Review of Choice in End of Life Care. I cannot imagine that such a document would have appeared from a Government 10 or even seven or eight years ago. We are now beginning to talk properly about death and end-of-life care.

There must be many in this House—many of us have lost our parents, for example—who have witnessed the death of someone we love and have long loved. We heard the phrase “the quality of death” earlier in this debate. For me, one of the greatest privileges I have had was to witness a quality death in people whom I loved. Witnessing the death of someone you love and have long loved is a profoundly moving experience if it happens to you. To my mind, it is capable of being as profound an event as witnessing the birth of someone you are about to love as a parent. For death to be an event of that quality, however, good end-of-life care is essential.

I turn to children’s end-of-life care, a subject very eloquently spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, and the noble Lord, Lord Suri. At the end of the 1990s and the beginning of this century I was a trustee of a children’s hospice, as it then was, on the Wales/Shropshire border. It made an enormous contribution to the lives of sick children and the lives of their families, who sometimes desperately needed respite from the difficulties that their dying children brought to the whole family, including their siblings, who often find that situation very difficult to cope with. It provided a process of death for children that was effective and moving and meant that everyone in the family was able to look back on that death as one of the most significant and historic events in the life of the family.

What worried me then, and worries me still, is that the statutory sector was reluctant, and remains reluctant, to recognise the contribution made by charitable organisations that provide hospice care for children. At the time when I was a trustee, there was barely any funding coming from the statutory sector to charities that were running children’s hospices. The situation is better now. Nevertheless, nearly one in five of commissioning groups do not commission children’s hospices at all, and seven commissioning groups refuse to commission children’s hospices to provide care just because they are charities. That is part of the very useful information that I and other Members of your Lordships’ House have received from Together for Short Lives and the Rainbow Trust, which I applaud for the assistance they have given to us towards this debate.

I shall simply ask the Minister one or two of the many questions posed by those charities. Given that it is the Government’s stated intent to make sure that commissioners prioritise children’s palliative care in their strategic planning, will the Government now take steps to make sure that clinical commissioning groups understand that they are responsible for commissioning for children’s palliative care and that they embrace the work that is done in the third sector? Will the Government also make sure that they are accountable to NHS England for delivering comprehensive children’s palliative care to end the postcode lottery that has been mentioned?

The final point I shall mention, because the hospice that I was a trustee of was in a rural area, is to ask the Government to try to ensure that rurality is not a handicap for families with dying children.

Access to Palliative Care Bill [HL]

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Friday 23rd October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (LD)]

My Lords, I apologise to some noble Lords who spoke earlier, whose speeches I unavoidably had to miss. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and I have stood side by side on the legislative battlefield on numerous occasions. I have always been willing to serve as her Baldrick, but when I use that comparison I do her an injustice because she is most certainly no Blackadder. Indeed, on all subjects, but especially on this one, she is very wise and knowledgeable, and I know that there are Members of your Lordships’ House other than myself to whom she has generously given private time when they have had issues around what we are talking about today. I support this Bill wholeheartedly.

This Bill is, of course, essentially about death. We should not have to feel gloomy about death in the way that seems so traditional in our country. I carry in my mind memories of my father’s death. I was lucky as I had a wise and wonderful father and his death was therefore a great sorrow to me. As I recall the last 24 hours of his life, every moment of which I witnessed, I can get almost a precise replay in my mind’s eye of everything that happened, everything that he said and all the thoughts that we exchanged before he was no longer able to speak, and it brings me great joy.

Today, 2,000 families in this country will face a death in the family. I wish that they could enjoy what I and, I believe, my father enjoyed on that day more than 25 years ago. My father did not want to die, but he was not afraid of dying. What occurred was almost the perfect end to life, but I am well aware that that does not happen everywhere.

Settings for death differ, and I have witnessed some of them. They include hospitals, nursing homes, residential homes and homes. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Warner—wherever he cares to sit in your Lordships’ House—that if at all possible people should be able to die at home as long as home is the right place for them to die and the circumstances are there. Wherever possible, those circumstances should be provided. That is much of what this Bill is about.

Let us face it: in most cases death is predicted, at least within a relatively narrow timeframe. We prepare for birth over a period of nine months. We do not know exactly when the birth will occur, in most cases, but we are ready for it. We are ready to move as a family; we are ready to drop everything; we are ready to be part of a great family event at which we rejoice. I wish that we could do the same about death. In many cases, we can prepare for it and be at the side of the loved one who is departing from the family.

What has happened is that there has been almost a postcode lottery in relation to the way in which death is managed. In some parts of the country, provision has been very good and holistic; in other parts, and I have seen this too in my own family, it is, frankly, haphazard and disconnected, and you depend on the chance that there is at least one nice and sympathetic person present as the relative dies.

The Bill is about creating much wider knowledge and of creating training so that people are ready to deal with death. Dr Twycross, emeritus clinical reader in palliative medicine at Oxford University, wrote a very compact and telling letter to me about this. One of the things he said was that lectures are not enough, and that apprenticeships of an appropriate length and intensity are vital, particularly for doctors training to become specialists in gerontology, oncology, respiratory medicine, cardiology, neurology and pain medicine. I agree with him absolutely that training is about much more than lectures; it is about creating standards and knowledge. I believe that the noble Baroness’s Bill would help to achieve those high standards and good knowledge.