Sharia Law: Marriages

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Keen of Elie

Wednesday 23rd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, we do not recognise sharia courts in this country; we do not recognise sharia law in this country. It is necessary that people carry through their relationships in accordance with the law of England and Wales. However, the Government do not prevent individuals seeking to regulate their lives through their religious beliefs.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, as one who has supported the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, and admires her persistence and courage, I ask my noble and learned friend to ensure that action is taken soon to give these women—I have met some of them with the noble Baroness—the basic equality that they are denied, and which everyone in this country deserves.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, one is clearly concerned where equality of treatment is not available as it should be under our law, but I repeat a point that I made on a previous occasion, albeit the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, may take issue with it: this is as much a social issue as it is a legal issue. Many people in this country choose to cohabit rather than go through any form of marriage but, within the Muslim community, cohabitation is severely frowned upon. It is for that reason that we find that many go through this informal form of marriage, which is not recognised under our law.

Serco

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Keen of Elie

Thursday 4th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, there is no pattern indicated by the parties to which the noble Lord referred.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble and learned friend not accept that many of us feel that penal matters should not be in any way administered by private companies? It is about as appropriate to have a private prison as it would be to have G4S guarding Buckingham Palace. I have held that feeling all my political life. Will my noble and learned friend accept that I am not unique in that?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I am prepared to accept that the noble Lord is not unique. Be that as it may, we currently have no proposals to contract out the guarding of Buckingham Palace or any other royal institution.

Brexit: Powers of EU-UK Joint Committee

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Keen of Elie

Wednesday 20th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, it is important to distinguish between two entities for the purposes of the withdrawal agreement. There is the joint committee, which will operate pursuant to Article 164. The final constitution of that joint committee has not yet been arrived at, but it will require representation from the EU and the United Kingdom after withdrawal and the consent of both parties before any decision is made. In the event of a dispute, matters can be referred on to arbitration and there will be an arbitration panel, which will be appointed from experts agreed on by the parties to the withdrawal agreement.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Can my noble friend assure me that United Kingdom Ministers on this joint committee will speak with one voice?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, United Kingdom Ministers always speak with one voice.

Withdrawal Agreement: Attorney General’s legal opinion on the Joint Instrument and Unilateral Declaration

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Keen of Elie

Tuesday 12th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, my views on whether an extension should be short, long or anything in between are of no moment because, at the end of the day, any extension sought will have to be on the basis of consent with the European Union.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that nobody would ever take any medicines if they read the leaflet in the packet in detail? That is the sort of risk we are talking about. Does he further agree that the deal on offer should be accepted tonight in another place and we should then move on?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I concur with both of my noble friend’s observations.

Islamic Ceremony: Civil Marriage Registration

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Keen of Elie

Thursday 28th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, there is a very real issue out there and it has to do with education and information as much as anything else. Many vulnerable people are not aware of what is required for a valid marriage ceremony in England and Wales. Therefore, we must address that issue—I accept that. But simply to move in the direction of recognising, for example, the nikah form of ceremony creates very real difficulties in itself. To take one example, how will you then police the issue of sham marriages?

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, as one who has attended a number of meetings arranged by the noble Baroness and wishes to salute her courage and persistence, I ask my noble and learned friend on the Front Bench to try to inject a sense of urgency here. It is all very well saying, “We have considered it”, and “We will look at it”. We need action. It is a complicated subject but we need some real urgency here.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, following the Government’s Integrated Communities Action Plan, we are going to take forward an analysis of policy objectives in this area and detailed work will be carried out.

Prisoners: Purposeful Activity

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Keen of Elie

Monday 15th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, on the last point, we do not have clear and identifiable data from all institutions that would enable us to determine how long prisoners actually spent in individual cells. That is clearly a matter for which individual governors have considerable responsibility. Regarding young offenders, the noble Lord may recollect the announcement made by the Secretary of State on 2 October about the introduction of the first secure school, which will open at Medway in 2020.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, if we do not have this data why do we not get it?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, it is a matter for consideration, but the collation of such data is a massive task and there are other, more immediate issues in our prisons to be addressed.

Privately Financed Prisons

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Keen of Elie

Wednesday 27th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I entirely agree with my noble friend’s observations. One of the reasons why we benefit from the competition between private and public provision of custodial services is that we can identify and take the best from each sector.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, as one who has always believed that it is the state’s duty to incarcerate and rehabilitate, could my noble and learned friend remind the House of the percentage breakdown between public and private prisons?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I do not have to hand the figures for the breakdown between the number of inmates who are subject to custodial sentence in privately run prisons as against those in the public sector. I can indicate that there are now 14 privately operated prisons—13 in England and one in Wales—which currently provide approximately 16,000 prisoner spaces. That is just under 20% of all prisoner spaces. As to the level of occupation between those spaces and the spaces in the public sector, I cannot give a precise figure.

Private Burial Grounds

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Keen of Elie

Monday 18th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, as regards private burial grounds, the removal of a body from a burial ground would be an offence pursuant to Section 25(1) of the Burial Act 1857, unless there was a statutory consent for such removal.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness drew attention to a particularly disturbing example, but can my noble and learned friend tell the House how many private burial grounds there are in this country and whether he has reason to suppose that the circumstances that she described are replicated elsewhere?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I am not in a position to give even an estimate of the number of private burial grounds in the country at present, but I will make inquiries as to whether those figures are available to the Government. In the event that they are, I undertake to write to my noble friend and place a copy of the letter in the Library.

Rape Trials

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Keen of Elie

Wednesday 6th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I note the noble Lord’s careful use of “could”. That is why we will await the outcome of the present inquiries and investigations before we draw any conclusions.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, did my noble and learned friend see that rather disturbing programme about the Criminal Cases Review Commission? He referred to that commission. Is he entirely satisfied that it is working in a proper and seemly way?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I am not a regular viewer of the television and I am not aware of the programme to which my noble friend refers. However, at present there are no indications that the criminal cases review operation is not operating in accordance with its remit or that it is not capable of discharging its functions.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Keen of Elie

Committee: 11th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 28th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I sympathise with the idea of being left in a somewhat surreal position. As I said at the outset of my remarks, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, so while we have the anticipation and desire to secure an implementation period, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Does my noble friend not think of Sir Thomas More:

“I trust I make myself obscure”?

Worboys Case and the Parole Board

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Keen of Elie

Wednesday 28th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

Clearly, it is a matter of concern for the entire justice system that victims, particularly of these sorts of serious crimes, should not feel inhibited in coming forward and reporting them. We have seen issues arise regarding the way these complaints were handled on some occasions by the police; those resulted in civil litigation, which has now concluded. We have also seen the issue raised of the CPS in the context of the number of prosecutions actually undertaken in the Worboys case. Clearly, we must keep these matters under review in the context of ensuring that victims of such crimes are willing to come forward and report offences, and appreciate that they will receive justice at the end of the day.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Can my noble and learned friend assure the House that this deeply unfortunate case will not result in undue delay in looking at other prisoners who are on indeterminate sentences? That issue has been raised many times in this House, not least by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

Clearly, the Worboys case will not be allowed to displace further consideration of the position of IPP prisoners. That issue is raised regularly in this House. We have had it under active consideration and continue to have it under consideration.

Media: Press Sustainability

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Keen of Elie

Thursday 22nd March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I entirely agree with the noble Lord’s observations with regard to the BBC scheme and its outreach to local news. The extension to a levy has been considered and is being looked at.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, my question is further to the very important point made by my noble friend Lord Lexden. Will Dame Frances give at least equal attention to the local press, which is the lifeblood of many local communities?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

Dame Frances will determine the scope and depth of her review but, clearly, that will include the important element of the local press.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Keen of Elie

Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 7th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

At the present time, no, but we are only now undertaking the detailed negotiation of the withdrawal agreement. It may be, for example, that the situation of UK citizens in Europe will alter during the course of those negotiations. It may be that the European Parliament will take a different view on how the rights and interests of those UK citizens in Europe should be approached. The noble and learned Lord will recall that, at an earlier stage, there were some suggestions that the rights of UK citizens in Europe would be limited to the member state in which they were resident at the time of exit. There are all sorts of possibilities and I am not going to indulge in an analysis of those possibilities—we are concerned with achieving certainty. We have achieved, by way of the joint report in December, an expression of joint opinion about where we are going, with regard not only to the rights of EU citizens in the United Kingdom but also to the rights of UK citizens in the EU. Of course we want to bring that in to the final withdrawal agreement, in order that we can then draw it down and implement it in domestic law.

[Lord Cormack]

My noble and learned friend is being very honest with the Committee, but in a way that gives me some cause for alarm. He has made it absolutely plain that, at the moment, there is no guarantee. Would it still be possible—I believe that it would—for this Government to give and enact in Parliament a guarantee such as this House voted for at the time of the debates on the Article 50 Bill?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

With respect, no, my Lords, because we are not in a position to guarantee that which has been arrived at in terms of the joint report. For example, we cannot by ourselves guarantee the rights of UK citizens in Europe. To try to dissect the joint report and say, “We’ll take one piece out and leave another piece in”, is not a way forward in the context of an ongoing international-level negotiation. It is not the way in which this Government would proceed in that context.

Prisons: Women

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Keen of Elie

Monday 5th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I fully acknowledge that, which is why I added the addendum with regard to the number of mother and baby units because contact at that stage is also very important. Clearly we understand the need for contact between female offenders and their families in general.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble and learned friend entirely confident that sufficient attention is being given to community restorative justice? Would not many of the women who are given custodial sentences be of better use to their families and society if they went down that route?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, we are looking at alternatives to custody right across the prison estate. I would add this in response to my noble friend: I am never entirely confident about anything, let alone this issue.

Transparency of the Parole Board and Victim Support

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Keen of Elie

Tuesday 9th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord, but I am not sure that that could address the sorts of issues that have arisen here as a result of the present process. We are looking at the situation of Worboys 10 years after his initial incarceration and the circumstances in which he has sought to persuade the Parole Board that he can be released, without danger to the public and against the background of a risk management plan submitted to the Parole Board by the National Probation Service itself. I do not believe that that could be brought forward.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Would my noble and learned friend agree with me that this is a very welcome review, but the very serious implications of this particular case should not impede progress on looking at the whole problem of indeterminate sentences for crimes committed by people which were entirely different? That has often been raised in your Lordships’ House by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, and many of us have given him strong support. Can my noble and learned friend give that reassurance?

CPS: Disclosure of Evidence

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Keen of Elie

Monday 18th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I do not anticipate that the review itself will be published, but I am confident that its conclusions will be.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, would not my noble and learned friend acknowledge that there is very widespread concern about this clear near miscarriage of justice? Could he at least say that he understands why people’s confidence in the police service has been significantly undermined?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, again, I am not going to anticipate the outcome of the review that will be undertaken jointly by the CPS and the police in respect of this case.

Probation Service

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Keen of Elie

Thursday 14th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, we do not consider that a root-and-branch analysis or going back to the drawing board is required at this time. However, we are taking active steps to address the very point that the noble Lord raises. Indeed, we are paying CRCs significantly more in the way of funding to ensure that they can deliver the services required, including, critically, Through the Gate services.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, if the whole purpose of prison and the probation service is rehabilitation, which it must be, is it not essential that whether you live in Lincoln or Bootle or Bognor or Bath, you get the same service? Will my noble friend reflect on that and on the wisdom, or lack of it, in farming out responsibilities of the state to private concerns?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, responsibilities have not been farmed out. Contracts have been entered into and they are properly supervised.