Sir Edward Heath: Operation Conifer

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Wednesday 17th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. I did not say that it was a local matter; I said that it was for the local force to decide whether they considered that to be appropriate. I think that is an important distinction. I accept that—

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Will my noble friend, at the very least, do as the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, requested and give the Home Secretary a copy of this debate, and underline how unanimous the general sentiment in this House was? Will he do one other thing? Will he ask the Home Secretary to receive a deputation of Members of your Lordships’ House who have taken part in this debate?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I say to my noble friend that I am coming to that in a second.

I have to a large degree retraced a lot of old ground, which is perhaps only to be expected when considering a question that we have already discussed many times. I am reconciled to the fact that this will obviously annoy and disappoint my noble friend Lord Lexden—

Rwanda Treaty

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Friday 8th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

On the noble Baroness’s second point, the Government are devoting considerable resources to tackling the criminal gangs, as has been well established from the Dispatch Box in many previous debates. As regards the letter that was sent yesterday, I am sure the noble Baroness will recall that the Permanent Secretary appeared before HASC and the Public Accounts Committee on 29 November and 4 December. They asked about payments that the UK had made and he explained at that point that payments in the 2023-24 financial year would be announced in our annual report and accounts next summer, for reasons of balancing the public interest. Since then, Ministers have agreed that Sir Matthew can now disclose the payments for this financial year. That is what happened.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, we all completely condemn these terrible criminals, but how many have been apprehended?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I do not know the answer to that. Part of the reason that I do not know the answer is that so much of this activity takes place on foreign shores.

UK-Rwanda Partnership

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Thursday 7th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the seventh paragraph of the Statement that was delivered in another place yesterday says that the Government will introduce legislation next week

“to give effect to the judgment of Parliament that Rwanda is a safe country, notwithstanding UK law or any interpretation of international law”.—[Official Report, Commons, 6/12/23; col. 433.]

Can my noble friend explain precisely what that means? Will he also share with the House how we will measure success, and whether we expect to have 100 people sent to Rwanda next year, or 200, or 1,000? Could he give us a rough idea of what figure the Government expect to reach to be able to achieve success?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I point my noble friend to Clause 1(6) of the Bill, which actually outlines what international law means; it is a non-exhaustive list. Regarding how we will judge success, I think we are already seeing some. As the Prime Minister mentioned this morning, a number of crossings have been deterred, and the numbers are down on last year. Success in its entirety will involve putting the criminal gangs out of business once and for all.

Asylum Seekers: Deportation from France

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 4th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Yes, I agree with both those comments.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, would it not make much more sense if we talked to the French a little more about processing applicants in France, rather than all this rubbish talk about Rwanda?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend raises this subject fairly frequently. In March, the Prime Minister and President Macron agreed the largest-ever deal with France to tackle small boat crossings, building on our existing co-operation. As a result of this deal, we have seen a significant uplift of personnel deployed to tackle small boats across northern France and the procurement of new, cutting-edge surveillance technologies and equipment to detect and respond to crossing attempts. So far, over the last calendar year, those efforts—as I have said many times from the Dispatch Box—have stopped, I think, 22,000 attempted crossings. It is probably more by now.

Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Wednesday 29th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

It is a shorter answer, I will certainly give the noble Lord that. The Government keep the list of proscribed organisations under review. We do not comment on whether a specific organisation is or is not being considered for proscription. This position has been informed by several considerations, including to avoid creating an expectation that the Government will proscribe a certain organisation, to reduce the risk of an organisation taking evasive action before the proscription order comes into force, and to manage the risk of any subsequent decision being vulnerable to challenge on procedural grounds. The Government will always consider the full range of powers available to tackle threats on our soil.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, not a single Member of this House, I would think, believes that there is any answer to this question other than “yes”. Can my noble friend please go back to his department and tell the Secretary of State that what we want to hear is that this organisation has been proscribed?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

As I said earlier, I fully understand the strength of feeling in both this House and the other place, as does the Home Secretary. I am well aware that 67 cross-party parliamentarians wrote to the Prime Minister requesting proscription in early November. The Home Secretary is due to respond to that.

Metropolitan Police Reform

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 27th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a good point. I thank all the officers from around the country who have been drafted in to assist with the policing of these protests. I was very pleased to see that, at the weekend, the protest passed largely without too much trouble. As regards morale, that would be for the commissioner to share with us but, as I said, conversations are current, topical and ongoing.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I revert to a point made by my noble friend Lord Lexdon in his admirable Question. Two Members of your Lordships’ House who are now sadly no longer with us, Lord Brittan and Lord Bramall, were traduced in an almost unimaginable way as a result of Operation Midland. I know that noble Lords throughout the House feel very strongly on this. Why can there not be, even at this stage, a proper investigation into Operation Midland, including precisely what went wrong and why?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend raises an interesting subject. It has been raised with me at this Dispatch Box 14 times over the past two years. I am afraid that my answer is not going to change. It will remain consistent across those 14, now 15, answers: the Government have no plans to interfere in this.

Refugees and Asylum Seekers: Safe Routes

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Wednesday 22nd November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, the thing with the Pakistan situation is that we are involved in negotiations with the Pakistani authorities about getting these people out. I think the priority has to be to get them out as safely as possible and as quickly as possible, rather than worrying too much, at this point, about exactly how I report the statistics to this House. I will do so, but I want to make sure those people get out safely.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend has said he will follow up on the question of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, of a moment or two ago. Would he agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, that that would be by far the better solution?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am afraid that is very much above my pay grade.

Illegal Immigration

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 20th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I would not try to explain that. I do not know what will be in the new legislation. I do not know how it is worded; I do not know what the intention is for it, so I cannot answer any of those questions, for obvious reasons. I do not know whether it will solve the problem; I sincerely hope it does, for obvious reasons. One thing I would expect to be in a treaty—I am just speculating—is that it will be enforceable in some way. Whether that is through the Rwandan courts or through other international means, I really do not know. But we are going some way to try to address the Supreme Court’s concerns.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that we need a solution that is accepted across the political parties, particularly as there will be a general election within the next 14 months? Is there not an overriding case for saying that if ever a Bill needed pre-legislative scrutiny by a Committee of both Houses, it is this Bill?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord probably makes a good point, but my understanding from reading the likely timetable is that parliamentary time would not allow.

Abortion Clinics: Safe Access Zones

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 20th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I agree, but I also say that the protesters should stop their intimidation now and leave those women well alone, as the noble Baroness suggests. I have tried to explain the context of the consultation and the reasons for it. There is nothing more to say on that at the moment.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, although no one could defend intimidation or harassment, there are those who quietly pray. This came up when we debated the subject earlier in the year, and considerable concern was expressed in a number of quarters of the House. Can my noble friend assure me that the consultation that will follow will take account of those who merely stand quietly and pray silently?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend should probably consult some of the providers to find out the precise types of behaviour happening outside their clinics. Plenty of examples are available online. The most recent I saw was on 4 November from BPAS. However, training will have to reflect Article 9 of the ECHR; as the House knows, that is around the freedom of expression and manifestation of religion and belief. I also say that those rights are heavily qualified.

Policing of Marches and Demonstrations

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 13th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I cannot answer that question, but I certainly hope the police are investigating.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I revert to the point made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans. It would be a marvellous beginning for the new Home Secretary if he were to call in leaders of the Jewish community—who have the admiration and respect of us all—together with those responsible Palestinians who have a legitimate cause for concern at the destruction and deaths in Gaza. If he were to do that, using moderate language—which I am sure he would—it would help to ease tension and to bring together people who have a common cause.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am happy to reflect my noble friend’s opinion to the new Home Secretary when I speak to him.

Afghan Interpreters

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Wednesday 18th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I absolutely agree with the noble Lord that those who stood with our troops deserve the best we have to offer. I go back to the point I made earlier: the definition of people who are eligible for ARAP is those who served in exposed or meaningful roles. I cannot precisely define what those terms mean, but I think we can all imagine it. I will do more to find out whether mechanics and other job descriptions match these criteria, as I cannot answer that.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, surely the best we have to offer is a safe abode. The noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, indicated the absolute moral responsibility we have for these people, and my noble friend Lady Warsi said that we are talking about less than a fortnight for some of them. Can we not have an absolute, definitive statement that my noble friend will go back to the Home Office, talk to the Home Secretary and ensure that these people have the safety their service to this country demands?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend but as I pointed out earlier, the principal problem is the lack of availability of suitable accommodation, much of which is provided by the MoD. That is not to say that we are not honouring our commitments; we absolutely are, and we are accelerating the speed of arrivals into this country.

Support for Migrant Victims

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Wednesday 12th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, Mary Tudor said that, when she died, “Calais” would be engraved on her heart. When the Home Secretary moves to higher realms, will “In due course” be engraved on hers?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I have no idea.

Former Chief Constables: Gross Misconduct

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 22nd May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I join the noble Lord in praising my noble friend’s commendable tenacity on this subject. Regarding the circumstances the noble Lord describes, I was not aware of them. Of course, he will also be aware that we have launched a review, which concludes this month, into the whole misconduct and dismissals process. With a bit of luck, it will report back in the next month or two, according to the Policing Minister in the other place. It will include a number of these issues, and I hope that will be dealt with then.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, if there were a gold medal for stonewalling, my noble friend would deserve to win it. The answers that he gives are obfuscatory and reveal nothing. Will he please consider again the questions asked by both my noble friend Lord Lexden and the noble Lord, Lord Bach? Will he also reflect on the point that came up during the debate we had in the Moses Room a week or two ago? I suggested to him, and he completely ignored the suggestion, that we should have a police ombudsman in this country: somebody who can exercise the sort of authority—dispassionate and impartial—exercised by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, in Northern Ireland.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his praise, which is very welcome. I remember that debate in Grand Committee and I am afraid I did not ignore his suggestion; I dismissed it. In fact, a number of bodies oversee policing, including the College of Policing, the IOPC, HMICFRS and a variety of other alphabet-soup organisations.

Baroness Casey Review

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Tuesday 21st March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I certainly agree with the noble Baroness’s latter point. During my response I omitted to mention the review into police dismissals. Obviously, that is ongoing. It started on 17 January and is expected to last four months and conclude at the end of next month. I cannot imagine for a moment that it will not address many of the more pertinent points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Casey. I quite expect that I will be up here discussing the findings of that review in due course.

As regards the institutional racism and so on, like Sir Mark Rowley I probably would not use that description because it can be misused and risks making it harder for officers to win the trust of communities, but I of course acknowledge the noble Baroness’s point.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that a particular responsibility rests on the Home Office here? Will he take away an idea and discuss it with his colleagues? Namely, there should be a Minister of Cabinet rank within the Home Office, or maybe detached from the Home Office, whose prime, indeed sole, responsibility should be to be stationed at Scotland Yard supervising what goes on, and answerable to both Houses of Parliament. This is a shameful day for us all, and the Home Office cannot escape its share of the blame.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend makes an interesting suggestion. There is already a Policing Minister. My personal view is that it would be difficult to station a Minister in a police station, which is effectively what he is suggesting. We need to be very careful to make sure that political oversight and operational responsibility, as the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, calls it, are clearly delineated. I am sorry if he does not like the fact that the noble Baroness pointed to the Mayor of London’s responsibility for the political side of policing in London, but that is what she did in chapter 8.

Police and Crime Commissioners

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 20th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Baroness asks a good question. As she will be aware, we have passed secondary legislation to enact changes to the PCC voting system. This reform will clarify and simplify it and make it easier for the public to hold their PCCs accountable at the ballot box. We are increasing the transparency of PCCs by amending the specified information order so that PCCs are now required to publish additional information to allow the public to hold them to account, including their progress against the Government’s national priorities for policing, recent HMICFRS reports and additional complaints information. There are also recommendations to improve scrutiny, which I can go into. A lot has been done.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, month after month and year after year, Ministers stand at that Dispatch Box and give wholly unsatisfactory answers. There is deep concern, as my noble friend Lord Deben made plain a few moments ago, and as my noble friend Lord Lexden has made plain time after time. If the rules prevent my noble friend the Minister giving a satisfactory answer, one is tempted to quote Mr Bumble: if the law says that, the law is an ass. Will my noble friend try to do something so that, when he comes to the Dispatch Box next time, he can give a sensible and meaningful answer?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry that my noble friend finds it unsatisfactory. I think it would be unsatisfactory for me to stand here and make a comment that might prejudice a judicial inquiry. I am not going to do that.

Police Misconduct Cases

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 6th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I do not know.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend find out and tell the House? Does he not realise that every answer that he has given in this stonewalling performance has been utterly unsatisfactory? He has made the Home Office seem completely impotent. At the very least, we need to know who this anonymous man or woman is.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for not accusing me this week of being incompetent, at least. I will do my very best to find out the answer to that question.

Hillsborough Families Report: National Police Response

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Thursday 2nd February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that, and I agree: the families and the bereaved definitely deserve closure. Whether they will ever truly achieve it, I do not know. I will certainly reflect on that and take it back to my ministerial colleagues.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, we owe it to our former colleague the former Bishop of Liverpool to give a formal, firm government response very soon. I completely understand why my noble friend was not able to go beyond what was said in the other place yesterday, when he was answering the noble Lord, Lord Addington. But the noble Lord had a very real point. Will the Minister please go back to his department and say, “Can we please have a date? Be it 1 May or 1 June, can we have a date very soon?”.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend and, of course, the noble Lord, Lord Addington. It would be preferable if I were able to state a date. I am not, but I will certainly take the noble Lord’s concerns back and ask the department to firm up on this. I stress, though, that the Policing Minister in the other place has committed to speeding this process up.

Police and Crime Commissioners: Accountability Arrangements

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Wednesday 25th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

As the noble Lord will be aware, after referencing a number of conversations that have been had in the House over the past few days, all of those things are happening with regard to vetting, police officer recruitment and so on.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend not accept that our noble friend Lord Lexden has made an extremely important point and made it very well indeed? The Minister in response really gives the impression of an incompetent and impotent Home Office. We really must have a proper inquiry into this man Veale, and he must be properly dealt with expeditiously.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I think I thank my noble friend for that. I am afraid I rather impotently have to go back to the comment I made earlier: it would be inappropriate to comment further while these proceedings are ongoing. However, of course I understand, and I accept that my noble friend Lord Lexden has made an extremely valid point and continues to do so.

Police: Vetting, Misconduct and Misogyny

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Wednesday 2nd November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

It is not in my gift to do anything about it, but I will take the noble and learned Lord’s suggestion back to the Home Office and make sure that there are further discussions on the outcome of this report, and indeed this discussion.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, it is frequently said, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”, but on this occasion it is broke and it does need fixing. Will my noble friend take that message, from all sides of this House? In particular, will he reflect upon the very sensible suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Dear, who really does know what he is talking about?

Police and Crime Commissioners and Panels

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 31st October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I have answered the question about the point. I have the turnout figures: in 2012, it was 15.1%; in 2016, it was 27.4%; and in 2021, it was 33.9%. We cheerfully accept that those are not the greatest numbers—certainly not relative to national elections—but, in a local context, they are not bad.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

In most democratic contexts, they are pretty awful numbers. Did my noble friend see the report in the Times this morning quoting the chief constable of the West Midlands, in which he expressed great concern that crime figures were being inflated by including so-called intimidatory gestures, which resulted in no charges but created a fair amount of bureaucracy? Could this be something that the police and crime commissioners are asked to look into as a matter of urgency?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I absolutely think that it is, but police and crime commissioners are of course answerable to their electorate, so it depends on the electorate’s priorities. I imagine that the electorate of the West Midlands would share my noble friend’s concerns.

American War of Independence: Semiquincentennial Commemorations

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Thursday 14th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I completely agree with the noble Lord. That gives me an opportunity to restate the fact that the US and the UK relationship is one of being top allies in defending freedom and democracy around the world through our unrivalled defence, intelligence, security and, indeed, trade ties. Regardless of who is in power, whether on trade, security or defence, the US is always our closest partner, and we do more together than any other two countries. Last year on 10 June 2021, the PM and President Biden signed a new Atlantic Charter and joint statement, setting an ambitious agenda for US-UK co-operation across a wide range of areas.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, bearing in mind that this is close upon us—it is three or four years away—could we not refer this to the British-American Parliamentary Group, and could not Members in all parts of the House submit ideas? I will submit one now: would it not be a marvellous thing to have two tea parties, in Boston, USA, and in the wonderful city of Boston, Lincolnshire, with the American President attending the latter and Prince Charles attending the former?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his suggestion. I was wondering whether he would manage to get Boston, Lincolnshire, into this Question, and he succeeded. Again, I shall take that suggestion back.

Ukraine

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Wednesday 2nd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that question. I think I have answered about some of the humanitarian actions that the Government have already taken and enacted very swiftly. Obviously, as the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, said, the situation is incredibly fluid, and I have no doubt that the Government will react to circumstances on the ground as and when required, at the request of the countries involved. I think I am right in saying—if I am not, I will correct myself later—that very recently, some Royal Marines were redeployed to that part of the world. It is happening, and happening fast.

The visa application centres, to which I think the noble Baroness was referring, are in the following locations. We have them in Poland, in Warsaw. There is the new one in Rzeszów, which I think I referenced on Monday—possibly the only thing I referenced on Monday. We have ones in Moldova, Romania and Hungary. and one is still open in Ukraine, in Lviv. We had to close the one in Kyiv, for obvious reasons. Demand across them is actually not as high as we would have expected at the moment, but we are none the less increasing capacity. More biometric kits are being redeployed and capacity is increasing on an ongoing basis.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, so much is falling on the Poles and the Hungarians, particularly on Poland, as the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, said. I make a suggestion for my noble friend to pass on to his ministerial colleagues: I do not expect an affirmative answer, but I do not want a dismissal. In the past, it has been found that it can sometimes be extremely helpful, in time of war, to have a resident Minister from this country stationed abroad. I put it to my noble friend that it would be symbolic, helpful and probably much appreciated by our former fellow members of the EU if we gave some thought to that now.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that suggestion, which I will take back; it strikes me as a very good one. Perhaps I may also clarify something I just said: in answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, EEA settled citizens can.