Water Bill

Debate between Lord Crickhowell and Earl of Selborne

Thursday 6th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Selborne (Con)]

My Lords, I am always impressed by the fervency with which my noble friend Lord Redesdale promotes the cause of sustainable development. Who could disagree with him that the sustainable use of water is clearly desirable? But does the more specific mention of sustainable development in the Bill help towards those causes or duplicate what is already there and in previous legislation? Does it give a much clearer direction to Ofwat? None of us would dispute that the major issue that must be addressed is long-term sustainable management of water resources. None of us disputes that the new resilience duties on Ofwat are extremely helpful. However, my noble friend Lord Redesdale did not remind us that this issue of whether the situations of Ofgem and Ofwat are totally parallel was looked at by the Gray review in 2011, the advice of which was to reject that. I accept that the Government rejected much other advice—from the Cave review and others—so that is not a roadblock. However, it must be recognised that there are already duties on Ofwat to promote sustainable development.

I am always a little nervous about those who find themselves supporting sustainable development. The concept has three pillars: the economic benefits, the societal benefits and the environmental benefits, all of which must be interconnected. The argument put forward by my noble friend Lord Redesdale was almost entirely based on the environmental and water efficiency benefits. Those are very worthy and very important, but I have also heard sustainable development prayed in aid of some pretty harsh economic messages. Clearly, that is not an appropriate way to interpret it. Is the Minister really sure that this is going to help to clarify Ofwat’s roles? I am not as convinced as my noble friend Lord Redesdale.

[Lord Crickhowell (Con)]

My Lords, at Second Reading I said I was green with envy that the environmental regulators will now have the Bill rather than the legislation that I had to deal with as chairman of the National Rivers Authority when I was in almost continual friendly conflict—I emphasise the word “friendly”—with Ian Byatt the economic regulator. It was so friendly that I have two cartoons at home, which were sent to me by a notable newspaper, showing both of us in the boxing ring. In the first, we are engaged in a vigorous fight, and the second shows us collapsing together exhausted at the end of the exchange. We have made huge progress since then, and the existing sustainable development duty, as I understand it, is now being given statutory authority in the Bill. The clear steer that has been provided by the Government is now being given statutory effect in the Bill. As I understand it, Ofwat now has sustainable development as a central objective. It will have to take account of that. It will have to carry out its functions in accordance with the strategic priorities and objectives identified by the Secretary of State.

So while I entirely understand and, indeed, sympathise with the arguments advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale—and perhaps it is because we have made such a huge advance from the position with which I had to deal when the economic regulator just did not think he had any obligations to provide for the environment and blocked almost every proposal that came from Europe or from us—I would like my noble friend to clarify what is to be gained or lost if we accept the proposition put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, over what we have already in the Bill. I find it very difficult to understand exactly what benefit we would gain. If there is nothing to be lost by including it, I would not be against including it. Against the background of a huge step forward having been taken, I am seeking from my noble friend clarification of the benefits and possible downsides of having this written into the Bill in the way proposed.

Water Bill

Debate between Lord Crickhowell and Earl of Selborne

Thursday 6th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Selborne (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Moynihan. Although he described these proposals as modest, they are important in complementing the provisions in the Bill facilitating competition. After all, the Bill introduces a completely new concept of competition at both the wholesale and retail levels. We are right to be extremely suspicious of the attitude that companies will take to try to use their undoubted advantages as incumbents in order to secure their markets, which, at the moment, are unchallenged.

If noble Lords think that I am a bit paranoid about this, let me take an example from outside the water sector, in the field of communications. This morning, on a previous group of amendments, we prayed in aid Ofgem; I should also like to pray in aid Ofcom. Take the example of BT and broadband, which is an area that involves public funds but may perhaps not be an exact analogy with the water sector. BT is able to use public funds in order, as the Public Accounts Committee in another place has demonstrated, to see off new entrants. In a number of cases, a lot of work has been done to bring broadband to remote communities, but there has been a lack of transparency from incumbents until the last possible moment. They come into those areas—surprise, surprise—with a directly competitive service, having identified where the competition is going to come from. Of course, all other areas remain neglected until they attract competition, too. In other words, it is possible, in any number of insidious ways, for an incumbent to retain a competitive advantage. The company can sometimes just be bad at providing the data and not answering communications.

These amendments place a duty on an undertaker to facilitate competition and they strengthen Ofwat’s powers. In ways which we cannot entirely predict, but which we can assume will be used, companies will be rightly keen to retain their share of the market. We should assume that anything done to strengthen the ability of new entrants to operate without discrimination against them must be welcome. Without in any way casting aspersions on the existing undertakers, we should recognise that anything that can be done to demonstrate that they are required to facilitate competition would be well within the spirit of the Bill and complement the existing provisions. I cannot see how these proposals could do anything but help.

[Lord Crickhowell (Con)]

I rise to make a very brief comment, prompted by the remarks of my noble friend on the likely possibility of incumbents seeking to defend their positions. I seem to recall that, in reply to my noble friend Lord Moynihan in our previous debate, the Minister told us that the water companies had said that they were against what was proposed. I remember thinking, like Mandy Rice-Davies, “Well, they would, wouldn’t they?”. It was just an indication of the kind of attitude that one is likely to get from incumbents—perfectly naturally—in trying to defend their existing position.

Water Bill

Debate between Lord Crickhowell and Earl of Selborne

Tuesday 4th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Selborne (Con)]

My Lords, after those two speeches, there is not much more to be said. For 24 minutes, we have had a very powerful exposé of the astonishing contradictions of a Bill which is here to promote competition and which is trying to implement Professor Martin Cave’s recommendations. The OFT said of orderly exits in the report that successful markets require a right of exit.

In this specific market everyone, including the EFRA Select Committee, has taken a very firm view, which has been forcefully put by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and my noble friend Lord Moynihan. The only argument that I have read that puts the contrary view has been the Government’s response to the EFRA Select Committee. That response has been so efficiently demolished that I do not think I need to repeat the argument.

I drew a crumb of comfort from the Minister’s response at Second Reading. He slightly opened the door when he said that it was just possible that the Government might wish to think further on this. We need the ability in the Bill to allow exit at a future date, sooner rather than later. It needs to be in the Bill, because there will not be another water Bill for some time. I hope the Minister will look with approval on these amendments. I do not mind which of the two is accepted; it is the principle which needs to be accepted.

[Lord Crickhowell (Con)]

My Lords, this has been a remarkable brief debate. I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, introduced the amendment in a very low key, charitably commenting on the Government’s position. That powerful speech was followed by what I was going to say was a lecture, but certainly a speech, that ought to be read by every civil servant in the department, because it was one of the most impressive speeches—lectures—about market economics and their realities that I have heard for a very long time.

I know my noble friend on the Front Bench knows something about business and will have listened with care. I beg him on this occasion to listen to the realities of the market rather than the detached views of civil servants, who, by their training and nature, may not be as equipped to deal with market realities as my noble friend Lord Moynihan clearly is.

It was only really when I heard the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and even more so when I heard my noble friend Lord Moynihan’s speech, that it seemed we were going to deal with this point about uncertainty. I simply cannot believe that people advance that as a serious argument. All the evidence suggests that if you want to have market confidence—the confidence of investors and of the people who advise them—you need to have a clause of this kind. Far from an uncertainty, it is an absolutely essential requirement in order to give the market confidence. On that ground alone, I believe that this amendment simply has to be taken seriously by the Government. I hope that, rather than advancing any arguments that have been put in his papers before the debate, my noble friend makes a very cautious response, takes away my noble friend Lord Moynihan’s speech and demands that his department consider it adequately and fully before we come back again on Report.