Winter Fuel Payment

Debate between Lord Davies of Brixton and Lord Livermore

Thursday 12th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

One thing that was ill-thought-through was the Liz Truss mini-Budget and the £22 billion black hole in the public finances, which is why we had to take the action that we did. It might be nice if the noble Lord took some responsibility for what we inherited. As I said already, when we came into office, we had to take a number of very difficult and urgent decisions to put the public finances back on a firm footing. That involved difficult decisions on welfare, on tax and on spending, and one of those was means-testing the winter fuel payment. We have listened to the concerns about the level of the means test and we are now able—all the while still means-testing the winter fuel payment, because that is the right thing to do—to extend eligibility so that this winter, all pensioners with incomes up to and including £35,000 will receive it.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by wishing my noble friend the Minister best wishes for his birthday today. He has the special treat of an Urgent Question and a Statement on the spending review—what more could anyone ask for?

I very much welcome the decision to reintroduce the winter fuel payment. In answer to the Question, my noble friend said that anyone with income above £35,000 would not receive the payment. There is one problem with that, in that some forms of income are not taxed. Someone with a substantial cash ISA—I understand that there is a Member on the Liberal Benches who has £1 million in his ISA; he has made no secret of it, and presumably receives a very substantial income—with a taxable income of less than £35,000, would presumably still receive the winter fuel allowance, or is some step going to be taken to avoid that problem?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for his question and for his birthday wishes—that was very kind of him. Obviously, we had to achieve the right balance between a simple system to administer and getting the support to those who need it most. The system that we have come up with sticks with the existing rules of the tax system and, I think, achieves the right balance, as I described.

Winter Fuel Payment

Debate between Lord Davies of Brixton and Lord Livermore

Tuesday 10th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, as someone who has spoken from these Benches against this proposal, I very much welcome the Government’s decision. The way the change has been characterised is a bit misleading. Does the Minister not agree that this represents a rejection of means testing and a return to universal benefits, with, quite rightly, the cost being handled for those on high incomes through a redistributive tax system?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for his support for the change—I was going to say in the means test, and that is obviously exactly what his question is about. I am not sure I am expert enough to engage in a debate with him about the definition of a means test. Clearly, we are raising the level at which pensioners are entitled to and benefit from this policy. As he says, it will be paid universally to all pensioners, and those with an income over £35,000 will have the winter fuel payment recovered by HMRC through the tax system.

Mansion House Accord

Debate between Lord Davies of Brixton and Lord Livermore

Wednesday 14th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her question. This commitment is voluntary and led by the industry, because the industry knows and is choosing to do this—because the evidence shows that higher-growth assets can boost returns to savers over time, as the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, said, in line with international counterparts, such as in Canada and Australia. Their pension funds and the levels of private asset allocation in those schemes is far higher. Pension savers will benefit from this accord through diversified savings, with potentially higher returns.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his replies and for the Statement in the Commons. I understand why my noble friend and the Minister in the Commons avoided tackling the issue of mandation, even though there was clearly a Treasury-inspired leak about the issue on Monday. Does my noble friend understand that with mandation of investment policies, should the Government consider it, comes responsibilities, with effectively the Government having to guarantee the returns or benefits on members’ benefits.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am shocked that my noble friend uses the word “leak”—I have no idea what he is talking about. As I have said, it is important that this is a voluntary commitment and that it delivers the investment promised for the UK economy. As I say, funds are voluntarily—it is industry led—choosing to do this because evidence shows that high-growth assets can boost returns over time, and we are confident that the schemes are now moving in the right direction. But equally, as I say, the pension schemes Bill will have more details in it about how these developments will be monitored over time to make sure that that change is delivered, because in the end what we all want to see is higher levels of investment.

Spring Statement

Debate between Lord Davies of Brixton and Lord Livermore

Thursday 27th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question. I am not in charge of the Chancellor’s correspondence unit, so I cannot say whether that letter has been replied to. I am also not responsible for appointing MPs to ministerial positions, so I cannot answer that point either.

What I can tell the noble Lord is that, as a result of the measures announced in the Spring Statement yesterday, £58 million of additional Barnett consequentials will be provided to the devolved Governments in 2025-26, £16 million of which will go to the Welsh Government. The UK Government have already made considerable progress on growth in Wales, including by confirming the Wrexham and Flintshire investment zone and designated tax sites in both the Celtic and Anglesey freeports, and by supporting steel communities through the Port Talbot Tata Steel transition board and providing £25 million of additional funding to the Welsh Government to keep coal tips safe.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My noble friend will be aware that the two key figures projected in the OBR report are the future course of income in the form of taxation and expenditure. There is a high degree of uncertainty about both those projections, and yet under our fiscal rules, the Government are using the difference between those two highly uncertain figures as the control variable, causing an incredible degree of uncertainty. That is what the rules require. Does my noble friend share my surprise that using this highly uncertain figure is an appropriate basis on which to take away benefits from hundreds of thousands of people and put them into poverty?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I hope my noble friend is not following the path of Liz Truss and the party opposite by criticising the OBR, because that is not a sustainable basis on which to build economic policy. The Chancellor has been clear that the fiscal rules are non-negotiable, and the OBR has confirmed that the Government are on track to meet them. On the wider policy of welfare reform, as I have said before, the system was unsustainable. It had the wrong incentives, and it is important that we get people back into work, because that is the best route out of poverty.

Pension Fund Reliefs

Debate between Lord Davies of Brixton and Lord Livermore

Tuesday 4th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am flattered to be referred to as the noble Lord’s noble friend, and I consider him to be a friend as well. I am more than happy to look at his ideas.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord—my noble friend—the Minister for his replies. Will he agree that the best thing that pension funds, both defined benefit and defined contribution, could do to support the British economy is pay adequate and secure pensions? What plans do the Government have to ensure that that is the case?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for his question. I of course agree that adequacy is an absolutely essential part of the pensions landscape. That is what phase 2 of the pensions review is designed to look at. The scope and terms of reference for phase 2 will be published in due course, once we have made fuller progress with phase 1.

Fiscal Rules

Debate between Lord Davies of Brixton and Lord Livermore

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for this Statement; the real meat will come tomorrow. I also thank noble Lords opposite for reminding us of their gross irresponsibility and refusal to accept any responsibility for this situation. When you have fiscal rules that distinguish general expenditure and investment in one way or another, you need a clear definition of investment. The problem is that pinning down such a definition is difficult in practice. When we on the Economic Affairs Committee took evidence from Joseph Stiglitz, he drew attention to this, instancing the possibility that spending more money on nurses would count as investment towards the sort of growth we need in the economy.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My noble friend makes an extremely interesting point. I am grateful for his support for what I have set out and will take away his point to give it further consideration.

European Investment Bank

Debate between Lord Davies of Brixton and Lord Livermore

Wednesday 24th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

The national wealth fund will work on the same basis as the UK Infrastructure Bank in terms of allocating investment. I think that is the answer to the noble Lord’s question.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

In a similar vein to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Fox, I had a question in the debate on Monday about the first phase of the pensions review, looking at the investment of pension scheme monies in productive economy. I am sure my noble friend will agree that in such discussions the voice of the trade unions that represent scheme members and pensioners through their organisation should be an important part of the debate.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for his question. I did not address his question in the debate, because I hoped he knew that I would agree with him, which I do. As part of the pensions review, we will consult all interested bodies.