Taxation: Digital Publications

Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts

Thursday 6th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The Chancellor always welcomes suggestions for raising money in tax, rather than the representations which he normally gets to spend more. It is indeed the case that we plan to introduce the digital services tax in April 2020. It is designed to bring in £1.5 billion over the next four years and is targeted on the multinational companies operating in the digital sphere, to ensure that they pay appropriate tax on the value they derive from UK business. It is seen as an interim solution until we move to a global solution, and the UK is taking the lead in the OECD and G20 to secure that. I certainly note my noble friend’s suggestion that we should move ahead with it before 2020, and if we did that, there might be the resources to pay the sum of money that we might lose from zero-rating e-publications.

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, we expected a rather more positive response from the Government. My party made clear two years ago that it was not prepared to see VAT in any shape or form increased on cultural goods. This should be recognised as a very important dimension, particularly for the special groups of people referred to already. Could he move with some degree of urgency as far as the Chancellor is concerned? The position is now quite clear in Europe and it would look remiss if Britain were to stand out in this respect.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I detect a certain degree of unanimity in the representations made so far. As I said, I have some sympathy with the argument that we should now equalise the tax on e-publications and conventional publications. We have had that freedom for only two days, so I hope the noble Lord will understand that we have not acted so far. However, meetings are under way with interested parties to develop the case. As I said earlier, if the Chancellor is convinced that a substantial case has been made, I am sure he will respond favourably.

Economy: Personal Savings

Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts

Thursday 12th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I extend my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, on his maiden speech. The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, reflected on the fact that we will benefit from his contributions in the years to come. However, with the present level of national debate on Brexit, I imagine that we will be hearing from the noble Lord in our debates in the slightly shorter term.

Secondly, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, on introducing this debate—not only because the topic is of such significance but because of the extensive way in which he covered some very real issues relating to savings that need to be faced by the Government. He is slightly more bullish on the economy than I will be when I make my general comments, but I agree with him entirely that people’s propensity to save relates very much to their earning power and their level of security with regard to the economy. Therefore, the Government’s first task is to do better than they have in recent years.

The noble Lord emphasised that there were some advantages from the development of workplace pensions. We all recognise that and welcome it on this side of the House. However, our anxiety, which has been clearly expressed in the debate—the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, referred to it—is that workplace pensions might detract from people’s approach to saving in other respects, yet that depends on two things. One is the nature of employers’ schemes. Those vary a great deal and it would be a mistake if we attributed to the pension schemes that are evolving the features of the best examples of those provided in the past, often by companies with extensive resources which could and did afford to look after their workers’ pensions, having been much more generous than is likely to be the case at present.

The second is the number of people in employment. We all know that the Government constantly boast that employment is at a high level, and it is true that a high level of people have a full-time or part-time job that provides resources for them. However, many who are in the gig economy are employed and therefore come up on the bright side of the Government’s employment ledger but, when it comes to the employer’s contribution or even the worker’s ability to save, the earnings level that they are operating at in many instances—we have seen how even substantial employers treat people in the gig economy and those in part-time work, easily reducing their hours at will—means that a substantial section of our population cannot be expected to benefit from the new proposals for the development of pensions.

We welcome the substantial increase in the number of those who have taken up these schemes, as they will play an important part in the future, but the anxiety is that they might direct resources away from other schemes with greater advantages. The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, indicated that an awful lot of the saving that currently goes on in our society is negative saving—that is, the returns are lower than the rate of inflation—and that encouraging people to save is encouraging them to reduce their overall assets. Therefore, we must be very concerned about the rate of inflation but we also need to recognise that people are currently extremely wary of saving because of the persistence of low interest rates, which means that they do not expect to get significant returns from many of the offers to save. Of course, we in the Opposition support the measures that enable people to save for the future and the genuine incentives to encourage saving, but we need to ensure that people pay due regard to the fact that there will come a time in life when the costs are high and earnings are very low, and that it will be necessary to have adequate resources.

I have much appreciated the contributions from noble Lords, particularly the extent to which the right reverend Prelate, the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, and others emphasised that we need to prioritise financial education and understanding. Far too many people in our society are still largely ignorant of the financial situation they face. People get into debt because they pursue potentially the worst route for borrowing. That happens through ignorance and through the desperation of approaching debt, but it is also due to a lack of knowledge of how adequately to resolve that debt. I appreciated the number of speakers who emphasised that.

I also recognised what the right reverend Prelate said when he referred to the fact that an obvious form of saving is buying a property, and he spoke about the development of home ownership through mortgages. We all accept that in the past such assets were more easily achieved, but these days a substantial number of our younger population have no chance at all of reaching the level of savings necessary to undertake a mortgage against the house prices they are confronted with. We have a rent generation and we need to think about the support that that generation will need when they do not have the obvious support that comes with buying a house with a mortgage, as the right reverend Prelate emphasised.

The Chancellor has sought to emphasise that he wants to increase the level of saving. However, we are worried about the extent to which certain initiatives, particularly the lifetime ISA, which has been referred to by several noble Lords, will be a deterrent to individuals pursuing better strategies in the long term. ISAs have an element of glamour about them but that glamour can be appreciated only by people who are already reasonably resourceful and in a position to take them up. We recognise, however, the incentives that support them.

The lifetime ISA and the Help to Save scheme have shown that the Government are concerned about the long-term position of people in our society, but I am not so sure we are all convinced that there is a level of fairness attached to these provisions. We see a lack of government measures to address the problems faced by those on much lower incomes than those to whom ISAs are addressed. We understand that the Government have recognised that people have great difficulty saving when they are getting help from universal credit. Given the enormous difficulties the Government have had in rolling out their universal credit proposals, it is not surprising that people’s confidence has been shaken, along with their ability and proclivity to save.

Quite a significant percentage of our population are in work and yet still have recourse to use foodbanks. I note that the Government purported to recognise that with regard to the health service, when they were shocked to discover that nurses had such low pay that they were going to foodbanks. But it is more extensive than nurses, and it is an indication that this debate is about not just the improvement of savings but fairness. We need to be fair to those who have the greatest need in our society and who have to manage budgets in such extreme circumstances that they have very little excess to address to savings.

We in the Labour Party are particularly concerned about levels of credit and credit cards. It has now reached proportions where the Government ought to act and, if they do not, the next Labour Government certainly will. We think there should be a cap on the charges that credit cards attract, because we are all too well aware that many people can get into real difficulty using them. It seems obvious that it is necessary for some limitations on this. The Government have seen the extensive growth of credit card usage and know the significant number of people who have regular debts that they are just not, at any time, paying off, and therefore that debt is increasing. The Government need to act in these areas.

Part of the problem for people trying to save is that they face great difficulties in this economy. There is an indication that, this year and next, there may be some improvement in wage growth. It follows seven years of Governments, led by the Conservative Party, under whom wages have not risen at all. That is a phenomenon that we have not seen for very many years. I have in the past suggested that it goes back to Napoleonic times—it certainly goes a long way back. We must recognise that people’s confidence is bound to be shaken in circumstances where their incomes do not improve.

It would be churlish if we did not recognise the extent to which the Chancellor is seeking to address savings overall, and we give credit to the attempts to put forward initiatives. However, we share with many others reservations about the strategies being pursued, as have been identified in this debate. In fact, I tore up a third of my speech after the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, made such detailed challenges to the Minister. In replying to the debate, he will have to spend all his time dealing with the points that she alone made. Other points have been made by other noble Lords, however, and I know the Minister will address them.

This has been an interesting and constructive debate. It is an indication of a fundamental problem in our society. We are talking about the long-term necessity of savings against a background in which the present position of the economy, and the predictions of where we will be in the next five years, are such that it will be a very difficult case for the Government to convince people that the future is sufficiently secure for them to take steps towards significant savings.

Class 4 National Insurance Contributions

Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts

Wednesday 15th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, I am fairly sure that the House will not be taking the Statement in quite the positive way in which the Minister clearly hopes. Conservative Party Budgets and U-turns seem to come hand in hand these days, but this is one of the outstanding ones. Scrapping the centrepiece of the Budget in less than a week is going some, even by Conservative Chancellors’ standards. When Chancellors make really egregious mistakes they are always compared with Hugh Dalton, who was fired almost immediately on the spot for the leak to the lobby correspondents as he walked in to deliver his Budget. When I think about other errors that Chancellors have made, this one comes pretty close to that. As the Chancellor has obviously been in close contact with the Prime Minister, I imagine that his hair has stood on end these last few days—brushed well though it normally is.

The changes announced today amount to a £325 million revenue loss in 2018-19 and a further loss of £645 million in 2019-20. They raise a number of questions, not only about the obvious gaping hole left in our country’s finances but also about the critical relationship between the Prime Minister and the Treasury. After all, we all know there is a connecting route between Nos. 10 and 11; they are adjacent properties. It therefore seems that the Prime Minister is bound to have been consulted on the Budget.

What we need to know is this. In his letter to Conservative Back-Benchers, Philip Hammond said:

“The cost of the changes I am announcing today will be funded by measures to be announced in the Autumn Budget”.


That is not good enough. At a time of already considerable uncertainty over our future relationship with the EU and the terms that we will obtain, and the impacts that that will have on trade and the whole issue of business confidence in this period, this is just about the last thing we need—a mess-up on a Budget.

If past Budgets or Autumn Statements are anything to go by, waiting for months only to hear that welfare spending or local council funding has been cut even further is not acceptable, yet we know both of those have been in the Government’s firing line in recent months. Furthermore, can the Minister assure this House and the public that the £2 billion announced for social care will be safeguarded? Informed opinion thought the emergency needs of social care were £2 billion a year, so we were already critical enough about the Chancellor’s decision to award it £2 billion over three years—that is, about one-third of what is necessary. The House will want an assurance today that that money at least is to be safeguarded.

The Prime Minister has said it was the Government’s decision to U-turn on national insurance contributions, but whose decision was it to put it in the Budget in the first place? In the consultation, were people not aware of the manifesto commitment? Surely the Government are not seriously saying that the Chancellor spoke to no one except officials before the Budget was produced. What about these other significant figures, his Treasury Ministers, who line up with their boxes in photographs and take pride in the Budget? No one among them appears to have recognised the manifesto commitment, leaving the public suspecting that it was the Prime Minister who put the Chancellor right. There will probably be consultations over a number of issues in the future and if they are at the informed and perceptive level of the construction of this Budget then we are all in for a rather bumpy ride.

This after all was one of the Chancellor’s major announcements in his first Budget. Surely he must have consulted people. We and indeed the country are at a loss as to why no one recognised what is now regarded as an important block—namely, that at the last general election the Conservative Party made a series of promises, not all of which have been fulfilled, though the ones that have been fulfilled are the ones that we on this side of the House find most onerous. It turns out that as far as this Budget was concerned this promise was the critical one, yet the Chancellor went blissfully on to deliver the Budget.

As the IFS has made clear with regard to self-employed people on low incomes, the NICs uprating was only ever small in comparison with the more significant changes that the Government are making to universal credit, yet this is the one that has shaken the Chancellor. I hope the Minister recognises that the self-employed will remain worried about what they will be taking home at the end of the month following this fracas. On the abolition of NICs 2, which the Chancellor has today confirmed will go ahead, how will the rights previously obtained by class 2 contributions be ensured?

There is now a gaping hole in the Budget and the Chancellor needs to reassure the nation that he will cope with the financial problem represented by this blunder. Finally, if no action on NICs 4 is to be taken in this Parliament, what on earth is the purpose of Matthew Taylor’s work? If there is such a block on action on this one crucial area—the Government have after all emphasised how crucial it is in terms of changing patterns of work—until after the next general election, we are all left to wonder just what will be the purpose of that work.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, what a climbdown. And what a spat between No. 10 and No. 11. The Chancellor has always had a tin ear, but did the Prime Minister not recognise that the NICs change was, in effect, a tax increase on the plumber, white van man, the entrepreneur and women working from home because of children—people who are typically “just about managing” and whose income fluctuates, is low and is often unreliable?

Yesterday, in the Budget debate, the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, spoke of the now discarded NICs change as a way to combat companies that, to benefit from tax arbitrage, push people out of employment into less certain self-employment. I suggest, as I did then, that if the NICs changes had been focused on those companies seeking that tax arbitrage, rather than on the self-employed—manifesto pledge or no manifesto pledge—the response would have been very different. Were the Tory Government following their usual pattern of protecting big companies and big business and hitting the little people?

It is crucial, as I think everyone in this House would agree, that the increase of £2 billion for social care remains, inadequate though it is, being spread over three years. How will the Government fill the gap in the public finances when the Chancellor is so constrained by expected blows from hard Brexit? Can the Minister give us today a guarantee that it will not be filled by more severe spending cuts parts of the public sector already under extraordinary pressure? Do the Government agree that the whole Victorian structure of business and employment taxes needs re-examining? The former BIS Secretary, Sir Vince Cable, is chairing such a review for the Liberal Democrats. Will this Government, among their many reviews, take on frankly a review of similar scope, because it is vital?

When spreadsheet Phil decides to shoot from the hip, we surely have a Government puffed up in hubris. I am afraid that this exactly reflects the arrogance that led the Government to hard Brexit. If they have a tin ear over their own self-employed, how bad is the tin ear that they will take into EU negotiations?

Electoral Fraud

Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts

Thursday 26th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My noble friend has great expertise in this area and I listen carefully to what he says. It would be in the interest of those local authorities that have been identified as being at risk by the Electoral Commission to take part in the pilots that I have just referred to, to remove any doubts about the election results in those areas.

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, we all want to see electoral fraud tackled and, as the Minister has indicated, it would help to re-establish the credibility of British politics. The Minister answered a Question yesterday on voter registration, and I want to ask him whether this is not the major priority with regard to our electoral system. After all, he listed five groups that gave great cause for concern on voter registration, namely,

“black and ethnic minority groups, social tenants, tenants in the private rented sector, young people and students”.—[Official Report, 25/1/17; col. 660.]

Will the Minister give the assurance, which he did not give yesterday, that this is the main priority?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

With respect, I did give those assurances yesterday. I remind the noble Lord that there is a record number of people on the electoral register at the moment, notwithstanding the removal of all the ghost entries when we moved over to IER. I also outlined yesterday a number of initiatives that we are undertaking to drive up registration among exactly those groups the noble Lord has just referred to. We have a specific pack aimed, for example, at social tenants. We are undertaking initiatives with students, and we have a whole range of packs for young people, including one called Rock Enrol!. We are anxious to do all we can to increase the numbers of those who register and then increase the turnout at elections.

Northern England: Opportunity and Productivity

Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts

Thursday 12th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Massey on securing this most interesting debate, and on an introduction that has been a stimulus to all contributors. Two developments dominate the whole issue of the north at the present time. One is obviously Brexit, on which this Government are inspiring little confidence that they have a structure of priorities in place for the negotiations. Several noble Lords in the debate and the IPPR report itself emphasised that it is essential for a negotiating committee to be set up for the north to protect its interests and advance its cause in the negotiations with Europe. The UK as a whole has a considerable dependence on exports to the European Union, which is why these negotiations will be of such significance. The country as a whole exports 44% to the EU, but the north-east exports 58%. That is why it is so important that negotiations take place that safeguard the economic interests of the north.

Developments in relation to Brexit also reflect the fact that the north is a significant part of Europe. After all, its economy is as large as Belgium’s, as was indicated in the debate. It is larger than the majority of countries in the European Union. So we cannot disregard the significance of the region in these discussions. That is why the IPPR reached its conclusion, which I am sure this debate has gone a considerable way to broadcasting and endorsing.

The Government have also been riding high on the other development of great significance to the northern economy—the powerhouse of the north. Thus far, we would have to say that there has been great talk but very limited government commitment of resources. The concept had a somewhat weak start when the Chancellor seemed to concentrate on that part of the country of most direct interest to his own constituents. That is not of course to disregard the enormous significance of the city of Manchester, but it is also obligatory on any concept of the powerhouse of the north that other significant cities be included. The right reverend prelate the Bishop of Leeds emphasised that it is not just the cities that need consideration but the smaller towns that are satellites to them and the surrounding countryside. They will also require real consideration if their interests are to be protected.

The fact that the Government’s commitment has concentrated overwhelmingly on transport shows the significance of the link between cities, but that plays only a limited part in the development of the wider northern economy, to say nothing of the fact that thus far very little has been heard of other significant cities. My noble friend Lord Prescott reminded us of the significance of Hull in this debate, but many cities in Yorkshire are important. Leeds has had some prominence in the Government’s considerations, but there is so much more to do. Concentration on transport has had a limited demand in this respect. The Government are promising £13 billion to be spent on these links in the next few years, whereas the IPPR indicated that effective links could be established only if £50 billion—four times that amount—were spent. That is an indication of the challenge that lies before us.

My noble friend Lady Massey and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, commented on the existing local authorities. The Government’s local government settlement still ensured that a great deal of resources went to the wealthier southern parts of the country, and the northern region got its usual poor deal out of that assessment. That is an indication of what needs to be done, not least on the issue of education. I was delighted when my noble friend Lord Bragg raised the issue of further education. He was supported by the noble Lord, Lord Beith, and others. There is no point in our talking about reskilling our nation while at the same time reducing the viability of the further education colleges. In my own former constituency, the Oldham College, which was a significant contributor, has had its resources truncated so much that it is now being linked with two other colleges for provision—a sure sign that this is about constraint on expenditure rather than expansion of provision.

However, unless we address ourselves to the skills of the nation, the resilience of the people that was referred to by the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York cannot be catalysed into effective activity without the necessary education and training. I hope we will soon see the Government giving some priority to this. That is the only way we will see our economy thrive on the skills of our people, rather than be dependent on the introduction into the economy of plumbers and contract workers from eastern Europe to meet the needs of our employers. We need progress in this area.

Finally—and I am not asking the Minister to reply to this point because it is at a nascent stage—several noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Liddle, have emphasised the problems in Cumbria. I know of several businessmen who are taking seriously the challenge of improving the position in Cumbria. They are looking, and have been for some time, at what we had such excellent news about yesterday: tidal schemes in Swansea and the fact that the Swansea lagoon can prove viable. We have estuaries off the northern and southern coasts of Cumbria, and it is to be expected and hoped that intelligent business activity will address itself to the possibilities of progress there.

Bank of England and Financial Services Bill [HL]

Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, we have come a considerable distance from what was in the original draft of the Bill that came before us on the role of the National Audit Office. Quite rightly, the Government have responded to the very strong opinion of this House that the proposals in the Bill were far from satisfactory, and we are grateful to them for the extent to which they have moved on these issues. This House played a significant role in identifying the real difficulties in their original Bill for the National Audit Office being remotely able to carry out its proper duty in assessing whether on all occasions the Bank of England was providing value for money.

The noble Lord, Lord Higgins, has moved across an important boundary in indicating that the NAO ought also to look at issues of policy regarding the Bank, which we know the Bank is resistant to. The Government still maintain that position, although we sought to press that here and my colleagues in the Commons were interested in the issue as well, not least if issues cropped up under freedom of information queries, where the role of the NAO in relation to the Bank would inevitably be limited under the proposal.

Nevertheless, the Government have moved a considerable distance on this matter. We are pleased to say that although not all our proposals, here and in the other place, were accepted by the Government, we nevertheless feel that significant progress has been made in that the NAO has been able to draw up with the Bank of England a memorandum of understanding on how these issues are to be tackled in future. We appreciate the fact that the Government have moved a considerable way from their original proposals to a much more satisfactory position, although I will listen with great interest to the Minister’s response to the noble Lord, Lord Higgins.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Higgins and the noble Lord, Lord Davies, for their comments and for their support for these amendments. My noble friend’s views on the governor’s role in giving forward views are well known; he has expressed them before in debate on the Bill. We have listened to his views but they are not specifically a part of this Bill. On the question of whether “Bank company” includes the asset purchase facility and therefore allows the NAO to make value-for-money reviews, the answer is yes. Amendment 3 is the amendment that deals with that.

I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has acknowledged that we have been in listening mode and that we have moved. We are always happy to listen to sensible suggestions, and I am grateful for his acknowledgement of that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, perhaps I may pick up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Flight. The FCA is one regulator. We understand that there is great pressure to move on this issue now because the FCA had lost so much confidence and so many people have questioned whether it is genuinely an independent regulator. However, the PRA, turning into the PRC, is an equal, if not more critical, regulator of our banking system, and of course appointments to the Bank of England—particularly that of governor—are also crucial. Therefore, can the Government tell us why they have not broadened out this change in approach, which is surely just a modernisation and a recognition of the significant interest that Parliament and the country have in these appointments?

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, after those contributions I can keep my own fairly short. However, like the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, I would have thought that this change would have applied in the whole approach of this Government and would have been taken into account when the Bill was drafted. Not only have the Government had strong representations from the Official Opposition and the Liberal party—we debated this matter very vigorously in this House—but it is clear that the Treasury Select Committee had very strong views on this. Ministers are all too well aware of the fact that the Treasury Select Committee contains members of all parties, several of whom enjoy very high reputations indeed—not just the chairman, although he too deserves his high reputation. How is it, then, that the Government should have thought that they could ignore the proper position of the Select Committee in relation to this appointment?

Of course we welcome the sinner who repenteth, and the Minister, I have no doubt, will indicate in a moment how carefully he has considered all issues. But it does somewhat surprise me that it needed such a weight of parliamentary opinion, to say nothing of opinion from outside too, before the Government recognised that they could not possibly put forward this appointment without there being a substantial degree of parliamentary scrutiny.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, while we support the amendment, my colleagues in the other place made a strong argument which I want to rehearse now. Of course, we agree that it is right that there should be stable funding for operations against money lenders who take advantage of their position, but, as my noble friend Lord Harris indicated, loan sharks at their worst can levy the most extortionate charges on the people who come within their purview. We would have preferred a levy not on the industry but from general taxation, because our anxiety is that those at the bottom end of the market, who have the most ruthless operational relationship with the public, will pass on these costs by taking even more money from those who are vulnerable to them. We accept the amendment and of course will not contest it, but we would rather the levy came out of general taxation than being an impost, which we know some in the industry will pass on to others.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I again thank noble Lords for their support in principle for much of this amendment; in particular, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Harris, for his comments given his experience in this area.

Clearly, we disagree with what the noble Lord, Lord Davies, said about why this is not being funded by taxation. As I said in my opening remarks, the current cost of the enforcement regime is around £4.7 million. Consequently, the costs to individual firms in the £200 billion consumer credit market is anticipated to be small. Therefore, it is unlikely that they will be passed on down the chain. With that in mind, I hope the amendment will be agreed.

Economy: Productivity

Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts

Tuesday 12th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, we are getting going and cracking on with things. I dispute what the noble Baroness says about having a choice between ditching the projected surplus that my right honourable friend the Chancellor has set out and achieving what we are setting out. They are not mutually exclusive. For example, noble Lords might be interested to know that we have committed to the biggest investment in transport infrastructure in generations, increasing spending by 50% to £61 billion in this Parliament.

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister cannot get away with those glib replies. Where has he been for the last six years? The fact is that our productivity levels are back to those of the recession year of 2008. Most of the projects that he mentions have been started in the past year or so. What about those projects which were meant to commence from 2010 onwards, which have in fact achieved very little? Does he accept that we will get nowhere until we successfully address the issue of training? Even the construction industry, which is clearly important to the development of economic growth and jobs, complains that it cannot get work people of sufficient skills to do the tasks it wants them to do.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I apologise if I sound glib, but I am certainly not complacent. I quite agree that there is a lot of work to be done. That is why, for example, on the point about construction skills, we are launching the apprenticeship levy to fund more high-quality apprenticeships. On top of that, we are protecting the core schools budget; we have removed the HE student numbers cap; and we have cut corporation tax to 18%. I could go on and on—there are lots of things. This is not glib; this is work in progress, but we are not complacent.

Bank of England and Financial Services Bill [HL]

Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts

Tuesday 19th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, the amendments in this group make minor and technical changes to correct oversights in the Bill. Amendments 3 to 6 deal with the use of the terms “institution” and “group entity” in the new Section 57B inserted by Clause 32. This section requires the Bank to provide information related to resolution plans for institutions and group entities. Subsection (5), which allows the Treasury to direct the Bank not to provide this information in relation to specified institutions, omits group entities. These changes correct this and make consequential amendments to the rest of the clause.

Amendment 7 alters Schedule 2 to ensure that the definition of “banking group company”, found in Section 189(1B) of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, applies to the use of that term in the new subsection (1ZB) of that section, which is inserted by this part of the Bill, and not just to its use in subsection (1A), as is the case now.

On Amendment 8, as we are ending the PRA’s status as a subsidiary of the Bank, Schedule 2 of the Bill removes a series of requirements in existing legislation for consultation between the Bank and the PRA that are no longer necessary. One such requirement, in Section 129A of the Banking Act 2009, was overlooked, and this amendment removes it.

Amendment 8 also reinstates a requirement for the Bank and the FCA to inform each other that they are satisfied that the conditions for application for a bank insolvency order for which they are respectively responsible are satisfied before either can make such an application. The amendment made by paragraph 56 of Schedule 2 to the Bill to Section 96 of the Banking Act 2009 inadvertently removed this requirement.

Finally, Amendment 9 corrects the reference to the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Act 2013 in paragraph 69 of Schedule 2. I beg to move.

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for explaining these amendments, which he has assured the Opposition are purely technical. I would not doubt the word of a Minister in such circumstances at any time, but certainly not at a time when, as will be recognised, the Bill is being considered first in this House. Therefore, if there were any failure to meet the criterion of technical amendments, I have no doubt that my colleagues in the other place would light upon it with some alacrity, so I am happy to support these amendments.

Amendment 3 agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

I very much join in the thanks, particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, for the way in which he conducted the work of the ministerial Front Bench. He was always open to meeting and kept us incredibly well informed—frankly, above and beyond the usual. I extend those thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde, and to the whole of his Bill team for the generous way in which they handled this piece of legislation. The Government listened, particularly on one key issue which these Benches were concerned about—oversight of the Bank of England —and the Bill will now be stronger for that.

I have to say, very briefly, that there were areas where the Government did not listen, and we will all live to regret two of them. One is the decision to end the reversal of the burden of proof, which would have had a big impact on the culture of banking, and for the better, and the other is the concern we raised over the independence of the FCA. Both those concerns have been very much underscored by the recent disclosure that the FCA has cancelled its review of the culture of banks and by the timing of the way it did so, just a few weeks after the Bank of England parachuted an executive director into the FCA to supervise this area. So we have concerns, which I am sure will be picked up in another place and by the Treasury Select Committee. But I very much thank those who worked on the Bill and who did so with great graciousness.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister and his colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Ashton, for the way in which they have conducted the progress of this Bill. We particularly appreciate that the Minister was concerned to arrange meetings at which we could discuss fully, outside the processes of the Chamber, crucial aspects of our anxieties. We were greatly exercised over the issues of the court and its powers and the oversight committee, so we also particularly appreciated the fact that a meeting was arranged for us by the Minister with the chairman or chief officer of the court. That was extremely helpful and it aided us in our consideration of the Bill. So I thank him and his team for their work on the Bill.

I also indicate to the Minister that, as a Lords starter, the Bill has further scrutiny to undertake. He will be well aware that my colleagues in the other place will subject the Bill to intensive scrutiny and will seek to find areas where perhaps the Government can be persuaded to think again, not least on the reverse burden of proof and their position with regard to the court. But this has been a constructive exercise. I suppose that it is the Minister’s maiden Bill and I congratulate him on his achievement as the Bill is about to pass.

Bill passed and sent to the Commons.

Bank of England and Financial Services Bill [HL]

Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts

Tuesday 15th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Myners (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a former member of the Court of the Bank of England. I support the amendment proposed by the Minister and I do not support the amendment to it proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, largely for the reasons identified by my noble friend Lord Turnbull.

The functionality of the court has improved markedly since I was a member—no doubt the two are directly related. There was a dominance of the court by the executive, and the non-executives were, quite frankly, confused about their role. They did not manage to organise themselves in a manner that effectively challenged the Chancellor. I and one or two members of the court became so concerned that we felt the need to report that the court was not working effectively—but we then struggled to find out to whom we should report it. I remember going to see the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury and then the Chancellor of the Exchequer and saying, “The Bank of England is not working well because it is too detached from the real world of what is happening in banking, and it acts as the sole voice of one person—namely, the governor”. I believe that it is now a far more democratic institution.

However, I struggle to understand why this power requires to be reflected in law. I would have thought that the effective functioning of a board of directors, on which we have based the court, would allow the court to establish a sub-committee to do anything that it chose to do and that it did not need specific authorisation in law to do so. If the Government’s view is that that power does not exist for the court, we need to be very clear that the Government are telling us that the court should in no circumstances be considered to be on a par with the board of directors of a company in terms of holding the executives to account.

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his introduction to this debate. He will not have been at all surprised that one or two penetrating questions have been put forward. I put on the record the assiduous way in which he set out to make changes to the Bill in response to our debates at Second Reading and in Committee. In doing so, he greatly assisted those of us who were able to negotiate with him to see the advantages that could be obtained by moving some way back to the future, as it were, and re-establishing the Bank as it was.

I think that lessons have been learned over recent years. My noble friend will appreciate that the original Bill that came before this House effectively ended the oversight committee and reduced the power of the non-executive directors. The Minister has taken steps to respond to the great concern expressed on all sides of the House on these issues and has brought the non-executives into a position of considerable significance, not least in determining the remuneration of executives’ pay, in which it is important that the non-executives should be in a substantial majority. Also, they have the right to carry out the oversight functions on which we pin such a great deal of emphasis. Therefore, we are grateful to the Minister for the extent to which he has moved.

I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Eatwell for his insightful contribution. He will know that this is only the first shot at this Bill as far as Parliament is concerned in this noble House. But it will certainly be taken on board in the other place, and it may be thought that it is the other place that ought to deliberate quite significantly on the role and position of the Treasury Select Committee in relationship to the Bank of England. I do not think any of us have thought that either the chairman of the Treasury Select Committee or the committee itself have been backward in coming forward when issues have presented themselves that needed inquiry. Therefore, I think that my noble friend Lord Eatwell can derive from this debate some satisfaction from the fact that there will be an opportunity for that to be debated further.

The House has concentrated on the question of the role of the non-executives. I am grateful to the Minister for having responded to those anxieties and presented amendments that have, to a very large extent, brought the situation back to a position of some significance. However, it was the case that, at Second Reading in particular, there were very great anxieties about the extent to which the government proposals significantly reduced the power of the non-executives, and that we were faced with a Bank in which their role was nothing like the role that they had played in the more recent past. I think that we have, through these amendments, met the wishes of the House. I am grateful to the Minister for having listened to the House and to several representations that we have been able to make. I am also grateful that he has been able to meet significant figures from the Bank—the chairman of the court and the chief executive—to understand the nature of the issues before us. So these amendments are to be commended and we support them.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I begin by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Davies, for his kind words. Let me reciprocate by saying that it has been a pleasure having discussions with him, and with the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer. I hope that this constructive spirit is retained all afternoon.

The noble Lord, Lord Myners, made a good point: why are we bothering and why do we need to do this? The point that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, made answered that in large part: it is because there was concern. But specifically, the court’s powers of delegation are limited by paragraph 11 of Schedule 1, and it may not delegate duties and powers that are expressly imposed on the court in legislation unless it has express permission to do so.

This has been a good debate, and I return briefly to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell. He asserted that we have gone back to 1997. I would dispute that that is the case. The Government have given the Bank the tools and powers that it needs to deliver its financial stability mandate. In particular, the Bank is now the statutory resolution authority with primary operational responsibility for financial crisis management. On top of that, we have created the FPC as a statutory committee of the Bank with the responsibility for monitoring and mitigating systemic risks for financial stability.

As to why prudential regulations should reside with the Bank, one of the key weaknesses of the tripartite system was a failure of co-ordination between those responsible for overseeing the financial system. We do not want to return to that. As the Chancellor said during the passage of the 2012 Financial Services Act, the Bank of England is the natural home for the microprudential, macroprudential and monetary policy functions because the interconnections are so great between these three critical functions. Having the PRA as part of the Bank also reduces underlap that could be harmful in the event of a crisis.

I turn to the issue of democratic accountability of the Bank. Since 2012, a number of measures have been introduced that have significantly enhanced the transparency of the Bank, and I will briefly recount some of these. For example, the court is now required to publish minutes of every meeting within six weeks. It has also voluntarily published historical records of court minutes, including those during the financial crisis, and, through this, Parliament and the public now have greater insight into the governance of the Bank and the key decisions made. Similarly, the Bank has introduced measures to enhance the transparency of the Monetary Policy Committee following the recommendations of the Warsh review. Clearly, therefore, the Bank is a more transparent institution than it was in 2012. However, there obviously remains room for further improvements. This Bill builds on those reforms through changes to the Bank’s governance, to its policy committees and to its accountability. However, as I argued previously—and as the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, has argued—this amendment is not necessary.

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[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, the Comptroller and Auditor-General and the National Audit Office are in agreement with this, but I would like to clarify the effect of proposed new Section 7E(2)(d). It allows for the publication of views where a matter in dispute cannot be resolved. That implies that there would be no agreement as to whether a particular audit could take place. That allows the Bank of England a backdoor power of veto if the arrangements are such that there is a possibility that even a dispute resolution procedure, as provided for under proposed new paragraph (c), results in there not being agreement. Therefore, is it possible that the Bank could de facto operate a veto?

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Opposition are of course glad that peace has broken out. As a token of that peace, I say how much I agree with the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, which I hope the Minister will address. Both at Second Reading and in Committee, the House was greatly exercised by the potential disagreement and difficulties that attended on the formulation of the Bill at that time, with these two tremendously significant institutions at loggerheads. The situation was not helped by the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, felt unable to contribute to our debate at that stage. We were all very anxious indeed about the position.

I hope that the Minister will answer quite straightforwardly the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Higgins. I do not think that it is a question of whether there will be a publication, but of when. Whether it could be done in time for the process being considered while the Bill goes through the other place is a different matter. That certainly would be a great advantage and it ought to put pressure on the two bodies concerned to ensure that this memorandum of understanding is complete and published in short time.

On the more general issues, all parts of the House were greatly exercised by the position that developed as a result of the publication of the Bill. I am very glad to endorse the fact that peace has broken out, although on this occasion the Opposition did not have much to do with it.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I thank all those who have offered me congratulations, which really should be to those in the Bank, the NAO and the Treasury who have been labouring long and hard on this. I have just been trying to oil the wheels as they go along. I am very nervous about the phrase “Peace in our time”, which one of your Lordships used. I get very nervous when that phrase is used, but I am very pleased with where we got to.

My noble friends Lord Higgins and Lord Young, and the noble Lord, Lord Myners, rightly pressed on the publication of the MoU. I can assure the House that the Government will provide an update on progress as the document develops, before the Bill has passed. Once complete, the MoU will be published and laid in the House Library. I do not want to tempt fate regarding the timing of this. However, as I said in my opening remarks, the process of drafting the MoU has only recently begun. I am sorry to say that I am not, therefore, in a position to share more details on this right now.

My noble friends Lord Higgins and Lady Noakes also raised the issue of what happens if the Bank and the NAO disagree. This amendment removes the court veto over what constitutes policy—the main concern of the House in Committee—and, instead, there is a requirement in the MoU for the NAO and the Bank to agree the process for resolving disputes. I will point out a few things here. It is important to note that much of the work which the NAO carries out across the public sector is governed by the National Audit Act 1983, which does not contain a statutory mechanism for resolving disagreements between the NAO and the number of public bodies it oversees about the scope of its reviews. The NAO works constructively with those bodies to define the scope of its work without the need for codified dispute resolution processes. I therefore hope that, in the vast majority of cases, issues arising between the NAO and the Bank will be resolved without needing recourse to a formal process. However, in the unlikely event that a matter cannot be resolved, the amendment goes further than the National Audit Act by requiring that a formal dispute resolution process is set out as part of the memorandum of understanding. As I said, this will set out in more detail how the NAO and the Bank will act to settle disagreements and how those will be recorded and published, where appropriate.

My noble friend Lord Higgins also wisely raised the subject of quantitative easing. In the case of companies of the Bank which are carrying out indemnified activities, such as the asset purchase facility—the Bank’s QE vehicle—new Section 7C, inserted by Clause 10, will apply. In those circumstances, the Treasury has the power to direct the company of the Bank to send its accounts to the Comptroller and Auditor-General, who would then be required to conduct a financial audit of the accounts and issue an accompanying report.

I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this and to making this process and the agreement possible.

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[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, our one concern with this amendment was that it could in some way compromise the statutory objectives of the FCA as laid down by Parliament. The Government wrote to us with an assurance that that was not their intention. Today, the Minister read into the record the text of the letter. He said that the recommendations would not compromise, modify or override the FCA’s statutory objectives in any way. Given that a Minister’s statement in Hansard is a weighty commitment, we are satisfied with the amendment.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I was going to make almost exactly the same contribution and my question was exactly along those lines, so I am happy to endorse what the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said and look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am very grateful to both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Davies. I can only repeat what I said before. I accept the weight and the implications of what I have said.

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[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, which the Government support, is an important step. We welcome the move by the Government to commit to a more diverse financial sector, in which the mutuals are clearly key. However, it is not enough merely to put this into legislation—action is required. What are the Government doing to ensure that this is more than just a gesture? Presumably, the FCA’s remit letter will have to be changed to reflect this new principle. Will the Government therefore commit themselves to introducing an amendment at Third Reading to reflect this obvious fact?

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak to the new clause which stands in my name as Amendment 15. In doing so, I reflect the privilege of working with the mutual movement for 30 years. In creating this amendment, it was very clear that the Bill as it stood left some gaps of the one-size-fits-all kind. I gave some examples on Second Reading and further examples in Committee. Indeed, I can record this evening in your Lordships’ House that there is one new mutual insurer now trading, for the first time in 20 years. It is a new military mutual, serving our Armed Forces. I cannot think of a better new mutual to stand on the market than one which serves our Armed Forces.

I pay tribute to the Front Bench and in particular to the Minister. I understood that the examples I gave of misunderstandings, or of being left out or not fully understood, have been looked at by Her Majesty’s Treasury. I think that they were found to be quite genuine cases. I recognise that Her Majesty’s Government reserved the right, from the start, to look at the wording of the original new clause that I had tabled. I always had an open mind that those words might have to be amended, if necessary. They have been and are now before us.

There is still a problem in the world outside in understanding this. Half the population is being served by mutuals, yet very few people in authority really understand the driving force behind the mutual movement and why it is growing today. There is a need for all of us in society, particularly the regulators, to have a better understanding. I question whether the new regulator has anybody senior who has ever worked in a mutual. If not, then I hope there will be some appointments made hurriedly.

As far as the mutual movement is concerned—the building societies, the mutual insurers, the friendly societies and credit unions, and of course the Co-Op—tonight will be a special night if this new clause is accepted. It will recognise that their future needs will have to be considered and be better understood, so I say a huge thank you on their behalf to your Lordships’ House if this new clause is accepted.

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[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, it is only a short while ago that my noble friend Lady Worthington was speaking from the Front Bench, so it is somewhat otiose for me to seek to surpass her eloquence on the crucial issue of climate change, on which she has spoken in this debate and earlier this afternoon following the Statement on the outcome of Paris. The noble Lord, Lord Bourne, also distinguished himself in that discussion, as he did during his work in Paris. I therefore hope that the Minister, who, as my noble friend hinted, comes from a slightly different quarter—the Treasury—will not be any less enthusiastic in his response to Paris, where 195 countries reached agreement on aspects of what needs to be done. Of course, the Government have a little ground to make up after the past six months, when they seemed to many to be pursuing policies counter to the concept of the green and long-term sustainability agenda—but I am sure the Minister will take full opportunity to show his enthusiasm today.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I am sympathetic to the intent of the amendment, and it is important that the Government consider how they can ensure that economic growth is resilient to risks arising from long-term fundamental changes. As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said, it is not just about climate change; there are technological and demographic changes, all of which could have significant implications for the global financial system. It is also important for the Government to understand and adopt best practices for the disclosure of climate-related financial risk. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, and she is right to raise this issue. However, as I hope I shall explain, the amendment is unnecessary and I hope noble Lords will agree with me.

The current legislation already provides for the statutory framework for the Financial Policy Committee to consider long-term systemic risks such as those listed in the amendment. Indeed, at its meeting of March 2015, the FPC discussed precisely one of those risks—to financial stability. This is evidence that the FPC considers risks across the breadth of time horizons and will continue to identify long-term as well as more immediate risks. The Bank is also taking action on longer- term systemic risks through other channels. The issue of climate change, for instance, has been added to the Bank’s One Bank Research Agenda. Requiring the Treasury to produce an additional report on sustainability would mean unnecessary duplication of work.

On the topic of admission of securities to growth markets, the UK’s financial markets are obviously crucial to the efficient allocation of capital that supports jobs and growth, including to unquoted companies where the Government allow certain tax exemptions to improve access to the finance necessary for companies to expand. AIM, as the biggest SME growth market in the UK, plays an important role in providing funding opportunities beyond bank finance for unquoted SMEs which cannot fulfil the requirements of the main market at this stage of their life cycle.

Turning to the specific issue of disclosing climate-related financial risks, at the Paris climate change conference the Governor of the Bank, in his capacity as chair of the Financial Stability Board, announced that the FSB is establishing a task force on climate-related financial disclosures—the point the noble Baroness mentioned. This announcement follows the “Breaking the Tragedy of the Horizon” speech given by Governor Carney at Lloyd’s of London earlier this year. The newly established task force, under the chairmanship of Michael Bloomberg, will develop voluntary, consistent climate-related financial risk disclosures for use by companies in providing information to lenders, insurers, investors and other stakeholders.

It is our firm belief that climate change as a global phenomenon can be tackled most effectively through co-ordinated international action. As the noble Baroness mentioned, to date a lack of co-ordination on the topic of disclosure initiatives has resulted in an estimated 400 different climate-related disclosure schemes. There is a real risk that this inconsistency makes it challenging for investors and other stakeholders to judge climate-related risks effectively.

The Financial Stability Board, as the authoritative forum for considering potential financial stability risks, provides the ideal international setting in which climate-related financial risk disclosures should be discussed, standards agreed and recommendations made. This Government are therefore fully supportive of the work of the FSB task force and have instructed government officials to engage fully in this international debate to ensure that the long-term financial risks associated with climate change are given full consideration.

This amendment requires the reporting of recommendations on standards for the disclosure of climate-related financial risk within 12 months of the coming into force of the Act. Considering that the task force is scheduled to complete its work within a year, this suggested timetable risks pre-empting the work of the task force already under way.

This is not to say, however, that domestic action does not have a role to play in improving climate-related risk disclosure. In fact, regulations made under the Companies Act 2006 already require all quoted companies to report on their greenhouse gas emissions. I submit that between our considerable spending commitments, our stance in international negotiations and our leadership in mobilising the financial system to help combat climate change, the Government are at the very forefront of efforts to understand and address the full range of financial risks that long-term fundamental change, such as climate change, could pose. I therefore, with respect, ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

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[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, Amendments 17, 18 and 19 make some small technical changes to the Bill. The purpose of Clause 19 is to enable the regulators to include the full range of transitional provision in their rules when they bring in new senior management functions. The clause also gives the Treasury a wider power to make additional provisions in regulations to deal with complicated cases.

Amendments 17 and 18 implement a recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in relation to those regulations. The amendments will ensure that the affirmative resolution procedure applies to any regulations under the new Section 59AB, which make provisions modifying, excluding or applying primary legislation.

Turning to Amendment 19, under the approved persons regime, the regulators have only the power of approval to perform a controlled function or, of course, to reject the application for that approval. The Financial Services (Banking Reform) Act 2013 gives the regulators the power to make senior management approvals subject to conditions or time limits. Clause 20 makes changes to these provisions to allow time limits as well as conditions to be varied after the initial approval has been given. Amendment 19 corrects an anomaly in these new provisions. The amendment will ensure that, where a regulator wishes to vary an approval on its own initiative, it must consult the other regulator if that regulator gave or varied the approval in question. Without this amendment, the other regulator would have to be consulted if it had given the original approval but not if it had only varied an existing approval. I beg to move.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, as these are technical changes we do nothing but endorse them and comment on the obvious fact that the Minister has not been in post overlong but has shown proper respect for the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and has moved with alacrity to enforce its request.

Amendment 17 agreed.

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[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, this may not be quite so interesting. Clause 26 will introduce a power into the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 for the Treasury to make regulations relating to transformer vehicles. Transformer vehicles are used for risk mitigation purposes, particularly in connection with insurance-linked securities business.

Lloyd’s is an important part of the London insurance market. The clause enables the regulatory arrangements of Lloyd’s to be updated, should that be needed to facilitate the Lloyd’s market adapting to insurance-linked securities business and the use of transformer vehicles. If this requires amendments to the Lloyd’s Acts, or makes other provision unique to Lloyd’s, new subsection (10) ensures that the regulations will not be treated as a hybrid instrument, so that amendments are not delayed in Parliament by the hybrid procedure.

During Committee stage, the Delegated Powers Committee considered this clause and reported that the power conferred was,

“adequately explained and justified in the memorandum”.

However, the committee raised a concern about the disapplication of the hybrid procedure, particularly in relation to regulations conferring functions on the Council of Lloyd’s. The committee pointed out that the purpose of the hybrid procedure is to protect private interests and recommended that the clause be amended,

“so that the power in subsection (6)(c) may not be exercised without the consent of the Council of Lloyd’s”.

The Government have considered this recommendation carefully and agree with the committee’s recommendation. Therefore, this amendment qualifies the power in new subsection (6)(c) to make regulations relating to Lloyd’s so that the power can be exercised only with the consent of the Council of Lloyd’s. I beg to move.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Government received good advice from the Delegated Powers Committee. I am surprised that they deliberated for a period before reaching the right conclusion—that is, agreeing with the committee.

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[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I will speak briefly to Amendment 25. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, for his courtesy in organising a meeting with officials and for his helpful letter of 14 December. Having said that, I am bound to say that it is not helpful to receive the Government’s response to their consultation on the secondary annuity market just this morning, particularly given that the consultation closed on 18 June—six months ago. This is simply not the way to make good legislation and I look to the Minister to undertake that we will have the opportunity to return to this matter at Third Reading, should our further examination of the government response identify issues which raise concerns.

Clause 27, together with Amendment 25, provides a broad framework for aspects of the secondary annuity market, but much is left to regulation: relevant annuities, relevant interests, exempt persons, criteria determining the proportion of a person’s financial resources and appropriate advice. Yet more will be dealt with via FCA rules, although I understand that this will be subject to consultation in 2016. We are clearly not going to be able to see even draft regulations by the time the Bill leaves this House, and although the government consultation response fills in some of the blanks, there is still much that is unknown. My noble friend Lady Drake has pressed the recommendation that at least the regulations concerning exempt persons should require the affirmative procedure, as recommended by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Like my noble friend I would press that matter on the Minister and hope that he will respond positively.

If there is to be a secondary market in annuities, we agree that as well as extending Pension Wise to provide free and impartial guidance to those with a relevant interest in an annuity there should be a requirement to seek financial advice before such annuities can be sold. A particular bone of contention is the protection of dependants and beneficiaries, an issue which, as my noble friend said, impacts disproportionately on women. Although this is acknowledged in the government response, they are simply asking the FCA to consider whether a requirement could be placed on the annuity provider to ensure the dependant or beneficiary of an annuity has consented to an assignment and to consider further rules for consumers with vulnerable characteristics. The Government are also passing to the FCA consideration of the challenges arising from their being unnamed beneficiaries. It will be important for there to be clarity on these matters by April 2017. What will happen if there is not?

It appears that the Government are not going to prohibit the assignment of an annuity for those on means-tested benefits, as my noble friend said, or for those meeting social care costs, but will look to changing guidance to help people understand the deprivation of income and capital rules. Perhaps the Minister might say more, given the complexity of these issues, about how robust this consumer protection will be.

It would seem that the secondary market will not be without its complications: there will be individual annuity holders; there may be beneficiaries and dependants; there will be purchasers of rights of an annuity under a specific regulated activity; there will be a further regulated activity for providers buying back annuities; there will be regulated intermediaries; there will be IFAs providing mandatory regulated advice; and there will be authorised entities to check that holders of a relevant annuity have received appropriate financial advice. Given this plethora of parties, how confident is the Minister that conflicts of interest can in practice be avoided? Where are the costs of all of this going to fall? Who, in particular, is going to meet the costs of an authorised entity checking to see that appropriate financial advice has been received? These arrangements also of course mean that the annuity providers will be under no obligation to permit assignment of annuity payments in the first place.

The Government appear, again as my noble friend said, to have changed their mind on allowing providers to buy back their annuities through intermediaries. Can the Minister say more about how the originally perceived consumer detriment of this is to be managed? The Government do not seem to have resolved some of the basic operational issues. What is their current position on maintaining a central death register?

The Government will not restrict any entities from purchasing on the tertiary market, nor do they seem minded to place restrictions on buyers’ abilities to reassign annuities once purchased. However, they are looking at preventing UK retail investors from purchasing rights under annuities that are reassigned on the tertiary market, to protect them from a complex financial product. We would agree with that approach. It seems that the prospect of securitisation or unbundling in the tertiary market leaves scope for the tax planners.

The consultation response states that the Government want the secondary market for annuities to be fair, simple to understand, cost effective and operationally deliverable. It is clearly a long way from that. There are a host of issues still to settle but none more important than the protection of consumers. All of this is in circumstances where the Government expect that, for most annuity holders, continuing to hold the annuity income will be the right decision. I am not sure where this will all end up but we will not, for the time being, oppose this amendment.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am not here to pile Pelion upon Ossa. I counted that at least 12 questions of considerable complexity have been addressed to the Minister, and all of them are important. My two noble friends have of course reflected the considerable anxieties on this side with regard to the position with pensions, particularly for secondary annuities. I hope the Minister will do his level best to respond to real questions that need to be addressed, which would also minimise the amount of time we will need to spend at Third Reading on the issue.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I start by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for sparing the time to meet me and officials last week. I will also say now that I apologise for the timing on these things. I will not try to give a “dog ate my homework” excuse—these things are sometimes just unfortunate—and I heed what the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has to say about the timing of the report. I make no commitments right now about Third Reading, but I am happy to meet both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, and will answer a number of the points that have been raised. As the noble Lord, Lord Davies, said, some were pretty technical, so I hope noble Lords will forgive me if I do not cover them all, in which case I will write as soon as I possibly can with detailed answers.

To start, the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, spoke of the tension in the policy. All I would say in response is that many of the responses to the consultation welcomed the proposal to extend the pension freedoms to those who had already bought an annuity. As the Government have always made clear, for many people, an annuity, which provides a guaranteed income for life, will remain the right choice. However, the Government believe that there is no reason why they should impose barriers that prevent individuals being free to make their own decision about what to do with their annuity rights, purchased with the money they have saved throughout their working life.

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[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, the amendments in this group are being made to correct an error made in the National Savings Regulations 2015. Those regulations revoked a number of statutory instruments with effect from 6 April 2015. By mistake, these included the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Consequential Amendments and Repeals) Order 2001, which I will refer to as the 2001 order.

The 2001 order, which was revoked, was used to make most of the consequential amendments and repeals that were required to give effect to the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. It amended a range of primary and secondary legislation, including the Companies Acts, the Bank of England Act 1998, the Building Societies Act 1986, the Pensions Acts and other legislation related to financial services.

In some cases, the amendments made by the 2001 order have been superseded by subsequent legislative developments, but in many cases they are still necessary, and the repeal of the instrument making them has left the law in a state of considerable uncertainty.

The only way in which this regrettable uncertainty can be cured is for the revocation of the 2001 order to be cancelled out. That is what the amendments do. Amendment 27 provides that this revocation shall be taken as never having had effect. This amendment would have retrospective effect. We do not believe anyone would be adversely affected by the amendment. On the contrary, the law will be assumed to be as it was in force before the accidental revocation of the 2001 order. This amendment will restore the law to what it is presumed to be.

To sum up, the 2001 order was and still is necessary. It was accidentally revoked in the National Savings Regulations 2015. The amendment is cancelling that relocation ab initio so that the 2001 order will still be in force.

The second amendment, Amendment 30, will ensure that the first amendment is brought into force on Royal Assent. This ensures that we can restore legal certainty as soon as possible and limits the degree of retrospection involved.

I beg to move.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I have seen some responses of a technical nature from Governments in the past which have brought some wry amusement, but I think the noble Lord has hit a new high on this occasion.

According to my notes, and I hope I am reflecting exactly what he said, to ensure legal certainty, the revocation is treated as never having had effect. We are getting to the end of this part of the Bill—and probably not before time.

Amendment 27 agreed.

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[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, we are in complete agreement with the Government on this amendment.

Amendment 28 agreed.

Bank of England and Financial Services Bill [HL]

Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts

Wednesday 11th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, we are in agreement with the Government.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Then I beg to move.

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[Lord Sharkey (LD)]

My Lords, this is essentially a probing amendment and I shall be brief. Clause 21(3)(c) amends Section 64B of FSMA 2000—the responsibilities of authorised persons in relation to rules of conduct—by omitting subsection (5). The subsection to be omitted says:

“If a relevant authorised person knows or suspects that a relevant person has failed to comply with any conduct rules, the authorised person must notify the regulator of that fact”.

This seems a perfectly straightforward, reasonable and clear duty to impose on the relevant authorised persons. Who could imagine or want a regime in which misconduct was known or suspected and there was no obligation to report the fact?

I asked the Minister at Second Reading why this obligation to report to the regulator was being abolished, and I wondered, of course, whose interest was being served by its abolition. The impact assessment helps here, in that it notes that,

“the removal of the SM & CR obligation to report breaches of rules of conduct should result in savings (mainly for larger banks and building societies) … This cost reduction should mainly benefit larger firms because of the large numbers of staff they employ”.

There is no mention of any other impact as to conduct or misconduct. The only impact listed is a financial benefit, mainly for larger banks and building societies. The Minister addressed the question in his letter to me of last week. He said that,

“the requirement for firms to report all suspected or confirmed breaches of the rules of conduct has proved to potentially be a very costly obligation for firms, especially the larger firms which employ large numbers of staff, as they have to put in place detailed systems and controls to ensure compliance …The regulators can ensure that they are notified of any information about employee misconduct in a more proportionate way in their rules”.

This raises more questions than it answers. How does the Minister know that the obligation to report misconduct is, “proving potentially very costly”? Who has told him so? What evidence have they provided? How was this evidence assessed? How did he guard against the obvious danger of special pleading? What independent views were solicited? Critically, how did he assess the cost benefit of removal of the obligation to report misconduct against the cost of unreported misconduct? Can the Committee see the evidence base for all this?

I note that the Minister defends the removal of the obligation to report misconduct by saying that there are other non-statutory ways the regulators can assure they are notified of misconduct. Does he mean the FCA general notification rules, SUP 15.3.1(3)? Do not these rules impose a non-statutory burden equal to that imposed by the statutory obligation that the Bill removes? If they do not, does that not suggest they are weaker, or has the Minister in mind new rules?

What all this means is that we are being asked to repeal a statutory safeguard without knowing what its non-statutory replacement may be. That seems an unsatisfactory situation. In addition to answering the questions that I have just asked, could the Minister at least postpone activation of this measure until Parliament has had a chance to assess whether the current FCA rules are likely to be as effective as the current statutory obligation—or, if there are to be new rules, could he introduce them via statutory instrument to give Parliament a chance to scrutinise them? I beg to move.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I shall also speak briefly and, largely, to endorse the arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey. The impact assessment does not give a rationale for why the Government have made this decision, which we seek at this point. It would be useful to understand the reasons for the decision having been taken; without such information, we are not quite clear as to the advantages. Who was consulted on this, and what are the benefits to consumers and regulators? Surely it would put more pressure on the regulators to identify wrongdoing. Have the Government conducted investigations that take any of this into account? The Minister has a chance to reassure both of us who have spoken in this short debate on the reasons for the Government’s position.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I shall say a brief word. My noble friend Lord Sharkey and the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, have both been very calm on this issue, but I shall admit that, frankly, I am outraged. The obligations that exist for so many people in the public sector to report misconduct—on teachers, police officers and members of the NHS—are taken as absolute requirements. There is no question of whether they are costly; it is understood that the importance of propriety and integrity in all those activities is crucial. I suggest that, after the years that we have been through following the financial crisis, no one should doubt that integrity in this sector is absolutely vital.

When we sat on the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, we discussed whistleblowing extensively. Every single institution that we talked to and everyone we could identify had in place mechanisms for whistleblowing; the problem is that none of them was effective. The kind of issues that were reported through whistleblowing systems were situations such as when someone had noticed someone sliding a £5 note out of a cashier’s desk—they were on that kind of scale. So none of the major abuses, whether it was PPI, the LIBOR scandal, the mishandling of credit issues or money-laundering, came to the surface through any kind of whistleblowing system. This measure—the statutory requirement to report a breach when someone sees or recognises that it is happening—is one of the few mechanisms that we could conceive of to try to counter that particular set of problems. Without exception, everybody who gave evidence to the parliamentary commission talked about the importance of making whistleblowing much more effective. So far as I can see, there is no replacement to this requirement that is effective, that has been proposed—and, frankly, if there is a burden, surely any burden is significantly smaller than living with the consequences of sustained and ongoing abuse.

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[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, government Amendments 27 and 28 make some minor and technical changes to the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 in relation to the regulation of consumer credit. The Government fundamentally reformed consumer credit regulation, transferring responsibility from the Office of Fair Trading to the Financial Conduct Authority on 1 April 2014.

The FCA regime is already having a substantial positive impact and is helping to deliver the Government’s vision for an effective and sustainable consumer credit market which is able to meet consumers’ needs. The amendments considered today are, as I have already said, technical in nature. They concern the application of provisions relating to the enforceability of agreements.

Amendment 27 amends subsections (4) and (5) of Section 26A of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, which concern the enforcement of credit agreements by persons acting on behalf of the lender, either by administering the agreement or by collecting debts under the agreement. This amendment makes it clear that a consumer credit agreement may be enforced by anyone who is able to carry on a credit-related regulated activity lawfully under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. This includes firms that are exempt from the need to have FCA authorisation to carry out these activities either because the firm has an individual exemption or because it is entitled to an exemption as a member of a designated professional body. It also includes appointed representatives of authorised persons.

The current provision requires the person to have a relevant permission under the Act. The amendment clarifies that this is not limited to persons who are directly authorised by the FCA but also includes persons who are exempt from needing authorisation either by virtue of a specific exemption or because they are appointed representatives or members of a designated professional body. In such cases, the person does not need FCA authorisation, provided that, in the case of an appointed representative, another firm with the relevant debt collecting or debt administration permission takes responsibility, as principal, for their activities and compliance with FCA regulations. In the case of designated professional bodies, if the FCA has approved the professional body’s rules under Part 20 of FISMA, and these cover debt collecting or debt administration, then members of the body can carry on those activities without needing direct authorisation from the FCA, provided that they do not engage in regulated activities which are outside the scope of the Part 20 permission. It was always the Government’s intention that subsections (4) and (5) of Section 26A should cover such persons, but the amendment puts this beyond doubt.

Government Amendment 28 amends Section 27 of FSMA, which deals with agreements made through unauthorised persons. Subsection (1) of Section 27 provides that an agreement made by an authorised person carrying on a regulated activity is unenforceable where it is made in consequence of something said or done by a third party in circumstances where that third party should have had, but did not have, permission. In the case of consumer credit and hire agreements, this could potentially cover any credit broker in what could be a long chain of multiple brokers, even if the provider is not aware of the particular third party or their involvement in the transaction.

This is in contrast to the position under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 prior to the transfer of regulation from the OFT to the FCA. Section 149 of that Act, which was repealed as part of the transfer, limited unenforceability to situations where the introducing broker was unlicensed and it was immaterial whether any other broker in the chain was unlicensed. The amendment would ensure that Section 27 is proportionate for consumer credit lenders and consumer hire providers in the context of the consumer credit market, where chains of credit brokers are often involved in bringing together the consumer and the lender.

Specifically, the amendment would ensure that this applies only if the provider knows—before the agreement is made—that the third party, such as a credit broker, had some involvement in the making of the agreement or in matters preparatory to its making. In such cases, if the broker is acting in breach of the general prohibition, the agreement will be unenforceable against the consumer, as is currently the case. However, if the provider is unaware of the broker’s involvement, the fact that it did not have permission when it should have done would not in itself make the agreement unenforceable.

The Government believe that this strikes the right balance between protecting consumers and ensuring that burdens on firms are reasonable and proportionate. I beg to move.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, we consulted the Financial Services Consumer Panel on these amendments, and it confirmed that they were entirely technical. As I always take the panel’s advice, I think they are technical and agree with the Minister.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I am grateful to the noble Lord.

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[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, Amendment 29 introduces a power into the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 for the Treasury to make regulations relating to transformer vehicles. Transformer vehicles are used for risk-mitigation purposes, particularly in the insurance and reinsurance industry. The Government plan to use this power to implement a new framework for insurance-linked securities business.

In an insurance-linked securities transaction, an insurer contracts with an entity specifically established to take on insurance risk. These entities come within the definition of “transformer vehicles” in the amendment. The insurer transfers risk to the transformer vehicle and the vehicle raises collateral to cover that risk by issuing securities to capital market investors. The vehicles exist solely to transform risk into capital market instruments and to compensate the insurer should the insured event take place. Investors receive a return from the premiums paid by the insurer and the collateral is returned to investors if the insured event does not take place. Unlike conventional reinsurers, ILS transactions do not pool risk. The transformer vehicle takes on a specific risk and typically holds collateral that is at least equal to the risk transferred. This key safeguard will be a firm requirement in the UK framework. The framework will ensure that insurers can rely on the protection they arrange through ILS deals.

Insurance-linked securities are now an important and growing part of the global specialist reinsurance market. By enabling insurers to access the capital markets as an alternative way of reinsuring risk, this business has brought additional capacity to parts of the reinsurance market. But despite the importance of London as a global insurance hub, that growth has taken place elsewhere. In London Matters, a report by the London Market Group on the competitiveness of the London insurance market, the UK’s out-of-date regulatory framework for insurance-linked securities was highlighted as inhibiting London’s ability to compete as a reinsurance hub.

Therefore, the March 2015 Budget announced that the Treasury, the PRA and the FCA would work closely with the London market to develop a more effective framework for insurance-linked securities business. The London market established the insurance-linked securities task force, which is working with the Treasury and the financial regulators to design a fit-for-purpose regime. Work is ongoing, but it is clear that the Financial Services and Markets Act needs to be amended to provide for the introduction of detailed regulations which will implement the new framework. In particular, the Government intend to use the power to create a bespoke corporate structure for transformer vehicles which assume risk from insurers and reinsurers. This will ensure that these vehicles are robust and managed in a way so that they can meet their obligations to insurers and investors. Given that this is a rapidly evolving market, the power will enable the Treasury and financial regulators to keep the regulatory framework up to date.

The clause enables the regulatory arrangements of Lloyd’s of London to be updated, should that be needed to facilitate the Lloyd’s market adapting to ILS business or the use of transformer vehicles. If this requires amendments to the Lloyd’s Acts then the regulations concerned will be dehybridised, so that the amendments are not delayed in Parliament by the hybrid procedure. I am grateful to the Delegated Powers Committee for its report on this clause, which recommends that the clause be amended to ensure that the consent of the council of Lloyd’s is needed before the FCA or PRA can be enabled to require the council to carry out functions on their behalf. I fully understand that the committee would want to be reassured that those affected by the use of a dehybridising provision are afforded an alternative protection. The Government will therefore give careful consideration to the committee’s report.

Although the Government’s current plan is to introduce a framework focused on the insurance industry, it is possible that the use of transformer vehicles by non-insurance entities, for example a company seeking to mitigate the longevity risk associated with an employee pension scheme, may become more common in the future. The power provides the flexibility for regulation to keep pace with such market developments, should that be required.

Finally, I am pleased to say that the London Market Group, which represents London’s insurers and reinsurers, has welcomed this first step in implementing a new framework for ILS business. I beg to move.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, it is third time unlucky for the Government because we do not consider these amendments to be entirely technical and they contain some aspects on which we seek clarification. The Minister has already recognised the significance of the report by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which I know will be studied with care. I make the assumption that the Government will come back before or on Report with a clear response to the committee’s conclusions. If the Government do not act on them then I can assure the Minister that we will, as the committee was quite clear that it thought there should be an amendment to the legislation.

The noble Lord, Lord Ashton, has already indicated the extent to which the Government have looked at the issue in relation to the council of Lloyd’s. I therefore hope that we will have clarity on this matter on Report. We will of course look at his remarks today with the greatest care. I give the obvious indication that while we will not object to these amendments at this stage, we will be coming back to this issue and, more accurately, we hope that the Government will be coming back to it as well.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I note what the noble Lord has said and, as I said before, we are considering this carefully. As I think I indicated, we accept what the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has said. We are looking carefully at this and a response will be forthcoming before Report.

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[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, I endorse the remarks of my noble friend Lord McFall in introducing the debate on the amendments. My remarks are necessarily cut short because the noble Lord, Lord Deben, provided a great deal of the supportive evidence and arguments the Government ought to take seriously; we hope that they will.

There was a time, not so very long ago, when we prided ourselves on the extent to which this country was to the fore in being aware of the problems of climate change and taking the necessary action to reduce the frightening possibility of the rise in temperatures and general climate change, which would make such great difficulty for the whole world. I know that my noble friend Lady Worthington, who is, unhappily, not with us today, is very concerned that the French this year have taken steps that are somewhat in advance of what we have made so far. They passed a law requiring listed companies to disclose in their annual reports how exposed they are to the financial risks related to the effects of climate change, and what measures have been adopted by the company to reduce those risks. The law also requires pension funds, insurance companies and other institutional investors in France to disclose how they are managing climate change risk. This law makes France the first country in the world to introduce a carbon-reporting obligation on financial institutions.

Amendment 29B gives an indication of the road we could tread. I therefore hope that the Minister will at least commit the Government to creating a standardised set of questions that financial services providers must ask to gather and present information on companies and asset owners. The aim would be to make it easier to compare and assess risks to which companies may be exposed because of the impact of climate change. That is not asking too much of the Minister, in his more constructive mood, and I hope I will establish that point very shortly.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I always try to be constructive with the noble Lord, Lord Davies. I thank the noble Lord, Lord McFall, for introducing this amendment. It is a shame that the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, is not with us. What strikes me from this interesting and useful discussion is that at issue is not whether we disclose more but how we do it in a meaningful way that people can understand and that is consistent.

Just taking a step back, as I outlined in my response to the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, on Monday, I fully recognise that climate change, as well as demographic change and technological change, which she referred to, are important structural issues that could have a significant impact on not just financial stability but society more broadly. As my noble friend Lord Deben, who has a lot of experience in this field, said, climate change cannot be put into a silo and seen as the responsibility of one government department, nor, in a business, one part of the business. It needs to be seen as a common endeavour to tackle.

It is right, therefore, that the UK’s macroprudential authority should be alert to climate change as well as to the other long-term systemic risks that I mentioned and that it, and other parties, should have access to clear and sufficient information to make an educated assessment of those risks. As the noble Lord, Lord McFall, and others, are well aware, the Government have put in place legally binding, long-term commitments to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions in the Climate Change Act 2008, and we will be pushing strongly for an ambitious and global agreement on climate change at this December’s United Nations conference of parties in Paris, involving commitment by all countries to act. The steps that will be taken to meet these commitments will involve a range of adjustments to production and consumption across the global economy, and the Government fully recognise the importance of ensuring that this transition is as orderly as possible.

As the noble Lord, Lord McFall, said, the Governor of the Bank, in his capacity as the chairman of the Financial Stability Board, has already highlighted the risks that climate change could pose to financial stability—and, more pertinently to the amendment, the role that consistent, clear and comparable disclosure at international level could play in responding to those risks. As your Lordships will know, the Financial Stability Board has been actively considering these issues and recently, at the end of September, convened a workshop of public and private sector participants to consider how the financial sector should take account of climate-related issues.

Following that workshop, the FSB published for this month’s G20 summit a proposal for an industry-led task force on climate-related risks. The G20 will then recommend principles for climate-related disclosure. I do not want to prejudice that discussion but agree with the noble Lord that obviously more could be done with disclosure practices. As he rightly said, so many disclosures—ironically and perversely in an age where we want more information—could add to confusion and not add clarity. We look for added clarity and consistency.

In the light of the need for comparable information across countries, I would argue that this issue is rightly considered at that international level. That said, one may well ask what the Government are doing at a UK level. I point your Lordships to what happened last week when the Treasury concluded a written consultation on reform to the UK’s business energy efficiency tax landscape. This included questions related to greenhouse gas reporting, including a requirement under the Companies Act 2006 for quoted companies to report their greenhouse gas emissions as part of their annual directors’ report. As I said, that is out for consultation.

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[Baroness Kramer]

First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, for allowing me to put my name to his very fine amendment, and also for drafting it in such a way that I could arrange the conversation beyond just the matter of mutuals. I very much support his comments on mutuals. They are important to our past, our present and our future.

The noble Lord commented on the regulatory scope available to the PRA in dealing with the sector, which I believe is governed by CRD IV, the relevant European directive. He will know that there is a great deal of scope for flexibility under that directive precisely to recognise the various needs of mutual—and similar and smaller—institutions across quite a wide range of facets. It is a flexibility of which the PRA has essentially not availed itself. Since those flexibilities were largely negotiated by the UK with the domestic variety in mind, it seems a little extraordinary that we have not taken advantage of them. I recommend to the Government that they might want to have an appropriate conversation with my soon-to-be noble friend Lady Bowles, who will shortly be coming to this House. She was a member—in effect, chair—of ECON, the Committee on Economic and Monetary Affairs within the EU. She can provide some helpful advice and direction on this issue.

I have said many times in this House, and I shall repeat it again today, that in the UK we are missing a layer of banking. In Germany, regional government—the Länder and municipalities—are able to sponsor banking institutions. The financial institutions provide the backbone to Germany’s small and medium-sized businesses, the Mittelstand. During times of recession that banking layer provided ongoing support to those companies because they understood them and their remit was such that they had to find their routes to profit from within that scope of geography and companies. It has been a very successful model and we have no equivalent here in the UK.

In the United States, which we also very much recognise as a competitor, local community and regional banks also play a much more significant role in supporting both individuals and small businesses. The community development movement in the US, which is very much local, has something in excess of $30 billion of assets under management. It is highly significant. It comes out of the US history of local banking, strengthened by the Community Reinvestment Act which was introduced in the late 1970s, largely as a civil rights measure, to deal with the red lines that major banks had drawn around ethnic minority communities, as they were not lending into those communities. That has been balanced out by the Community Reinvestment Act. It provided the Obama Administration with a very significant route to channel funds to small businesses during the recession in the US and again played a very significant role in making sure that those small businesses could be resilient.

By contrast, following the financial crisis, the major mainstream banks in the UK largely withdrew from SME funding. The Government tried to support various programmes and schemes, including the growing but still small P2P industry, to fill something of that gap and vacuum. However, that does not overcome the fact that we still do not have the appropriate layer of banking to provide the community and local perspective which enables companies to rely on ongoing support from financial institutions in both good times and bad.

I think that if you spoke today to the Federation of Small Businesses, it would say that even though we are in recovery, most of the mainstream banks have not returned to lending to SMEs and, where they do, it is frequently property lending, or at least property is required to provide collateral for what should be cash-flow loans, and that the banks are still fairly slow to come to decisions. Having been on this House’s sub-committee on SMEs and export finance, I know that it was evident that small businesses found it extremely difficult to source any kind of financing for exports. Even when they had a long history of exports and were well established, it was still very difficult and very expensive to find that kind of financing in the UK. Therefore, it is reasonably self-evident that we are missing a layer of banking. Frankly, the regulator has never addressed that issue but has always waited passively for the market to come forward rather than taking positive action itself.

A combined report from Newcastle and Coventry universities was recently published and states:

“In 2013, the unmet demand of individuals and businesses excluded from mainstream finance (‘the finance gap’) was estimated at around £6 billion per annum”.

That is a huge figure and it seems to me that the regulator must begin to pay attention to it.

During the passage of the Financial Services Act 2012, the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and I proposed a measure to require the banks to disclose their lending practices in detail and by postcode. That led to a voluntary framework for the disclosure of bank lending which came into effect in December 2013 and was supported by HM Treasury and BIS. According to a recent letter sent to the Treasury from the Community Investment Coalition, it is starting to have a real impact. The letter states that in 2014,

“Coventry University and Newcastle University were commissioned by Big Society Capital, Citi, the Community Investment Coalition and Unity Trust Bank to analyse the data and assess its value in supporting increased market competition and interventions to overcome financial inclusion”.

That is a very interesting report. It is supported by a sibling report, as it were, from the University of Sheffield, which looked at mortgages.

The only conclusions one can come to from reading those reports is that lending across the UK is incredibly haphazard. The data do not yet allow sufficient fineness of analysis, if you like. I hope very much that the Government will look at whether or not more measures are necessary to provide appropriate data to the degree required to enable proper analysis to take place. However, it is very clear that different parts of the country have very different experiences as regards access to lending. Strangely enough, in the London area, for example, access to lending for small businesses seems to be very much less than one would expect compared with other parts of the country. It will be very helpful when we finally have those data because they will expose where the system continues to fail. Regardless of that, I hope the Government will see that there is a role that must be played by the regulator as well as by the Government in ensuring that the patchiness and inadequacy of banking facilities for small businesses and individuals is countered. I ask the Government to look seriously at the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, because it begins to tackle that particular set of issues.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, both on his amendment, for which he has secured widespread support, including from this Bench, and on the way in which he detailed the key arguments behind it, which I know the Government will take seriously. It is somewhat unnecessary for me to fill in any of the interstices that the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, may have left—which were not many—because the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, has certainly emphasised the significant point, which is that British banking needs to be a good deal more diverse than it is at present.

After all, the Competition and Markets Authority disclosed its findings last month from its review of competition in the retail banking market and found—predictably—that the four largest banks had long dominated the British scene, stifling competition that would give consumers and businesses a better deal. We all know the limited success that has been obtained by the various reforms to make the switching of accounts easier. The British people, I am afraid, are somewhat inured to minor blandishments when it comes to their bank accounts, so there is a need for much more imaginary thought at the centre on how we can make our financial provision more diverse.

We have support from the Treasury Select Committee. The chair, Andrew Tyrie, has written to the CMA to ask it to report back before the Budget in March next year regarding the 8% surcharge on bank profits. He wants to know what impact that has had on the big four and what implications it has for the wider banking sector. It is clearly the case, he believes, that one size does not fit all. That phrase has obtained throughout this short debate and is one to which I entirely subscribe. The Minister will be all too well aware that the Building Societies Association has made it clear that the problems encountered by financial mutuals in recent years almost certainly would have been fewer if there had been greater diversity in the sector.

I think that the case for this amendment has been made strongly. No doubt the noble Lord will be withdrawing it on this occasion but the purpose of this debate is to give the Government the chance to show a constructive response to what we all recognise is a real issue with regard to British banking. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, cited the German position. Is it not somewhat extraordinary that even under the so-called northern powerhouse, our great cities do not have individual banks? They no longer have individual building societies, either. That says something about the structure of finance in this country, which surely the Government should address in the context of a Bill about the most significant banking structure of them all—the Bank of England.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who contributed to the debate. I have listened carefully to the interesting points, particularly on banking diversity and availability, especially for SMEs, made by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and the noble Lord, Lord Davies, but I will concentrate on the amendment in hand.

I am glad to say that noble Lords are pushing at an open door—or, at least, one that is slightly ajar. This amendment would add a duty to the PRA to consider diversity of ownership model and size alongside its competition objectives. For the FCA, the amendment would add diversity of ownership model and size to the list of factors to which it may have regard as part of its competition objective.