All 1 Debates between Lord Deben and Baroness Merron

Baroness Merron Portrait Baroness Merron (Lab)
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My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate on assessing capacity in care homes. As noble Lords will be aware, my remarks will be limited to areas where the Government have assessed that there may be major technical or operational workability concerns.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, that that will include matters relating to the ECHR. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, already picked that up in his own characteristic way, but I gently say to the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra—I know he is aware of this because of his experience—that Government Ministers have a duty to advise your Lordships’ House of implications. As I explained in the last group, decisions on the ECHR are ultimately for Parliament. I am sorry to frustrate him with repetition, but it is appropriate to the relevant considerations. I will just ask him not to listen if he feels it is very irritating.

This may be helpful to the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, as well. Amendments 112 and 111, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, aim to strengthen safeguards for care and nursing home residents by ensuring that capacity in these cases is established through specialist clinical assessment and that capacity assessments seek to rule out reversible medical causes of impaired or fluctuating capacity. The Government consider that Amendment 111 may be inconsistent with the Mental Capacity Act’s assessment framework, which does not require enhanced assessment for certain groups. I dealt with this in more detail in the last group. By requiring expert psychiatric input before capacity is confirmed, Amendment 112 could create inconsistency with the MCA’s presumption of capacity and the principle of proportionate, decision-specific assessments.

Amendment 110A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, would affect care home and nursing home residents’ capacity assessments and require expert psychiatric input before capacity is confirmed. Again, this could create inconsistency with the MCA’s presumption of capacity and the principle of proportionate, decision-specific assessments.

If passed, each of these amendments would lead to a difference in treatment between care home and nursing home residents and all other citizens in assessments for assisted dying. That difference in treatment—the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, may wish to close his ears at this point—could give rise to challenge under the ECHR, particularly Article 8, which refers to respect for private and family life, and Article 14, which concerns the prohibition of discrimination. The differences in treatment would need to be justified, necessary and proportionate.

Lord Deben Portrait Lord Deben (Con)
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If the Committee decided that the conditions in a care home were such that it would be better to have a system there that was slightly different from the one for those who were not in a care home, surely that is justification enough. As the Minister knows, I am entirely in favour of the ECHR and disagree very strongly with my noble friend, but this seems a bit of a red herring, frankly. The fact of the matter is that, if this was the policy that was put forward, I think it very unlikely that anyone would find it possible to stop it under the ECHR.

Baroness Merron Portrait Baroness Merron (Lab)
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It would not be possible in any case to stop it in that way, because it would not invalidate legislation. I am just drawing the Committee’s attention to the fact that it would require further work. As the noble Lord will know, if a court finds that primary legislation is incompatible, it may make a declaration of incompatibility. As I said, although it does not invalidate legislation, it is usual practice for the Government to consider and address these matters.