Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Curry of Kirkharle

Monday 8th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben]

We are in great danger of thinking about only this subject. Teachers constantly have to face this issue. I remember going to a Protestant school and being taught about transubstantiation. The teacher had a duty to explain that honestly and straightforwardly. He also had a duty to explain what he himself thought about it. I did not agree with what he thought about it. On the other hand, I was extremely well informed by how he explained it. That is what teachers are doing constantly, in all sorts of areas. That is all that is being asked.

It is right that the teacher should explain what the law is. It is right that the teacher should have to explain the arguments that led to the law being as it is. It is also perfectly reasonable—and 13 year-olds would certainly demand it—for the pupils to say, “Well what do you think about it?”. It is perfectly right for the teacher to say what he or she thinks about it, but with the proper politeness and courtesy that teaching implies.

We are making a great deal too much of this because this is the sort of thing that all teachers face all the time. The law is not being changed to make a special arrangement for this, because it is already covered. I really do not think that we should get hung up about this, because it will have to be dealt with immediately we change the law, whatever we do. That is what teachers are there for: to try to make people understand that this is what the law is and that there are arguments. Let us get the class to argue and discuss the issues. The only people who do not want that are the people who want teachers to promote one side or the other. Promotion of things does not have much place in the classroom.

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle]

My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Dear. Deep concerns were expressed at Second Reading on this issue. We all have huge respect for the role of teachers and admiration for what they do, but many are deeply concerned about the impact of the Bill. Indeed, in the Government's response to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, the door was left partially open in that the Government said that they would continue to engage with religious organisations and others to explore whether there was a case for further clarification in this area. I suggest that there is a case for further clarification. Rather than just rejecting this amendment, the Government ought to consider how they can respond to give greater clarity on the subject.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Curry of Kirkharle

Wednesday 20th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle]

My Lords, I have huge respect for the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and I thoroughly enjoyed working with him when he was a Minister in Defra. I admire his tenacity as far as the Agricultural Wages Board is concerned. I do not want to rehearse the arguments we went over when discussing this issue a couple of weeks ago but I will comment on the proposed amendment. I declare an interest as a farmer in Northumberland but I am not a landowner. I also chair the Better Regulation Executive.

I want to deal with the process of the impact assessment. The Regulatory Policy Committee, the RPC, scrutinises all impact assessments as submitted and scrutinised this one. It is required to present the range of possible outcomes as a consequence of a decision such as this—I commented on this during my speech in Committee. It has to look at the worst-case scenario, which is that over time wages fall to the national minimum wage. The point I made in the debate was that that is absolutely unlikely to happen because of the demand there is for agricultural workers. The differential in wages that exists now, as referred to earlier, will continue and may widen because once you remove the Agricultural Wages Board the market will itself respond. In my view, farm employees will then be even better off.

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, I took part in the earlier discussions. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for missing the first of his lambent sentences. I am concerned about what he asks for. The noble Baroness wanted it because she felt that somehow or other this would be a patronising view. The National Farmers’ Union is not being patronising; all it will do is produce the figures. There is nothing patronising in that. You cannot have a negotiation to produce the figures. They are the figures, they will be the figures and we shall know what they are. Rather like speeches I have heard from the noble Baroness on this sort of subject before, she talked about a world that, if it ever existed, has long passed.

It is that that concerns me about the proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. I live in the country and own some land there—not much, but around the house in which I live—and I know the farmers round about. I find it insulting that farmers are the only group of the population that cannot be allowed to run their labour relations within the general context of the national system. As a countryman, I find great annoyance at the way in which urban people talk about farming as if it was so alien to the normal practices of life, so divorced from the normal issues of the marketplace and so unconcerned with the future, comfort and family life of its workers that it needs a special arrangement that no one else needs and that everyone else has shuffled off as being part of a historic circumstance. Yet the farmer has to be left with it and I find that insulting. That is also an indication that the party opposite does not understand the countryside at all, wishing to impress upon it things that have nothing to do with our knowledge in the countryside.

In the countryside today, good farmers are extremely difficult to get hold of. They are significantly better paid than the minima produced by the Agricultural Wages Board. No farmer worth his salt trying to compete in the modern world is unwilling to pay a proper wage to somebody doing what is an increasingly technical and difficult job. The Agricultural Wages Board was set up at a time when there was a wholly different farming structure. I admit that when I was Minister of Agriculture I would have liked to have got rid of the Agricultural Wages Board—even then—but since then the arguments for it have become even less pertinent. Agriculture is not like it was even 20 years ago. It certainly is not like it was when the Agricultural Wages Board was set up. I very much hope that the Minister will refuse to ask for yet another investigation.

To end, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, very charmingly suggested that he was helping the Government and very charmingly suggested that he was only doing them a favour. I very charmingly suggest that he is actually trying to put this off again. This is another mechanism within the rules of the House to try to revisit this particular subject. Frankly, when the Agricultural Wages Board has gone, nobody will remember that it ever existed because life in farms will continue. We will have rid ourselves of an unnecessary burden, an additional cost and something that is a hangover from the past. Now, I am a great believer in tradition. I love the traditions of this House and am very keen on conventions of that sort but this is a tradition that we can do without. It is not necessary. I hope that my noble friend will not give this any shrift whatever.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Curry of Kirkharle

Monday 14th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, I support the tenor of these amendments and wish to say how strongly I support this part of the Bill. I have no direct interest in it because the companies with which I am associated do not tend to go across the county border in quite the way in which it might affect them. However, if I do have an interest I will declare it.

The issue I want to raise is that this has been a very successful extension of a system that was in operation even before the previous Government. Other examples included how the supermarkets were able to have a lead council that would help them to get the basis upon which they would apply elsewhere, so this has been a growing piece of work. I was pleased to hear the noble Lord put forward his support for this system because it really makes a difference and is not a way of avoiding anything. It is merely a way of ensuring that there is a continuity and consistency in the implementation of law. It also enables companies that want to do the right thing to do it and then not find that they are asked to do something different somewhere else in the country. I think all of us, right across the board, have found embarrassing situations in which in one place you are asked to do the opposite of what you have been asked to do next door in a particular kitchen or over a particular kind of presentation.

This is an extremely important change, which was amplified by the previous Government and is being amplified here. I, too, would like to hear from the Minister whether this is the beginning of a continuous process and whether it will be much deeper than it is in the Bill. Can we hope that more and more areas will be covered, not in a way that reduces the efficacy of regulation but one which increases its efficiency? It is not that I want people to get away with anything; I just want people to know where they are, wherever they are. This amendment points to that and I hope that the Minister will be able to help us see this as a continuing and growing trend in government regulation.

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle]

My Lords, I declare an interest in that I chair the Better Regulation Executive, which was very much part of recommending these changes. I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, recognises the value of the scheme and I pay tribute to the previous Government for having introduced it because it is a valuable tool and has reduced significantly the burden on businesses that have participated in it. My concern about the proposed amendment is the definition of “to a material extent”. It will create a lot of debate and potential confusion around how one defines “material extent”. The trade associations that have been consulted and would be keen to participate in this scheme have members who all have a common interest. I see this as providing a real opportunity to take a significant regulatory burden away from businesses that are members of a trade association and would wish to participate in such a scheme, so I have a problem with Amendment 28ZDA.