Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Wednesday 11th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Erroll (CB)]

My Lords, there is another little problem, pointed out to me by a senior member of a publishing company, World Wide Publishing. It has a lot of research material and things for students, as well as books and things such as that. At the moment, if the AI comes to take it, it is probably going to use the fair use or the small excerpt exception, because that protects it. When it falls back, it is quite possible that the copyright holders could have a claim against the publishers. If they start ganging together and going for the publishers, we are possibly going to see bankruptcies among some of the big publishers, that publish and hold all our research material that is so valuable. I am not thinking about the arts thing as much, but we need to worry about that because that could destroy a lot of useful information for our future.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, of course the Government have the right to do what they intend to do, but that does not make the Government right to do what they intend to do.

As a mark of our cross-party determination, we have pushed this in this House up to the limit—some would argue, perhaps, beyond—but the Government have ignored us because the Government know best. We have amassed extraordinary majorities in this House that have delivered warning after warning, but the Government have not listened or budged because the Government know best.

I follow up on the remarks from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, about Downing Street. It was not so long ago that the door of Downing Street would be thrown open wide and Government Ministers would go down on their grazed knees to welcome the likes of Elton John, Paul McCartney, Dua Lipa, Sir Ian McKellen, Ed Sheeran, Richard Curtis and thousands of others. All those thousands have spoken out in anger about what the Government intend to do. But in response, there has been nothing. The official record is stuck in the groove: the Government know best.

The US Vice-President has spoken openly about what he wants from the UK on copyright, but the Government assure us that no word or whisper has been exchanged with anyone in the White House and that this plan to do away with our copyright protection has been all their own thinking—bless them. I am sure this Government really do know best.

Creative people are people of passion, they are remorseless and have the ability to reach out to millions of ordinary people. Those who live, work, toil, sweat and go through their working lives and retirements relying on their copyright—2.4 million of them and their families and their friends—with the dreams of what they still might do and the sweet memories of what they have already done. I suspect they will not forget what is being done, which I know is silly and misguided of them because, as we know, the Government know best.

Ministers could have given just a little, and they would have gained such a lot. Perhaps it is still not too late, and there is something to admire in the Government’s determination to turn their back on the cheap applause that is so readily available, were they to do so. Forgive me, but in this instance, I shall leave any expression of admiration to others.

It is not so much a horror movie; it is more like “The Charge of the Light Brigade”. We have been participating in that charge—a most noble, historic and important endeavour. The guns have spoken in their heedless way. I think Lord Tennyson would have written some very fine verse in praise of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and all the tenacity and principled effort she has shown, with all the others, including the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, this evening. We ride on.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Wednesday 4th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I will be mercifully brief. We have heard a lot of powerful eloquence about property rights, both in this debate and in the days that preceded it. There is much in that to agree with. I hope that those who have spoken so well on this topic today will speak up as enthusiastically when the property rights of others who are perhaps less good at presenting their case are threatened with theft—for example, via the compulsory purchase coming to this House soon.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, like the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, I need to declare my interest. I was in a bookshop and a lady of, let us say, a certain number of years scuttled over to me and said, “You’re Michael Dobbs, aren’t you? I’ve always wanted to meet you and tell you that I read one or two pages of your book before I fall fast asleep at night”. I am glad that the noble Baroness’s experience was rather better—though I took it as a compliment.

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and so many others, I am desperately sad that we are where we are. This is not just a disagreement about the Bill. This has become a more fundamental disagreement about the rights and the responsibilities of the Government—their right to get their legislation through and their responsibility to listen. The Government Front Bench insists that it is listening, but not even their Back Benches believe that. In the first round of ping-pong, Ministers managed to get only 125 Members to vote for them, on what I assume was a whipped vote. The Government soldiered on, but, in the second round of ping-pong, their vote fell. In the third round, on Monday, their numbers fell yet again. It was a little like watching Napoleon’s retreat through the snow from Moscow. On Monday, only 116 stumbled through the drifts in the government Lobby, which included all the officer class on the payroll—although I see that the screws appear to be on today. That 116 was despite, if I may say so, a gallant intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle—many of us will remember that. It was a brave speech in support of the Government; indeed, it was the only speech in support of the Government.

From every corner and every Bench in this House, even the Government’s own Benches, the plea has gone up: please listen. The Government have not responded. They have given us nothing but silence; the silence of a forest in winter, frozen and unbending. It is so strange and so unnecessary. They have changed their mind on so many other things—even winter fuel payments, I understand—but not on this. I suggest to the Government that they are using up their credit in this Chamber and they cannot be surprised if, in future days, when the snow melts and their way turns to mud, as it does for all Governments, the courtesies that they expect from this Chamber are not given as willingly as they might be. When the conventions of this House are so blithely ignored, they cannot always be easily rebuilt.

Ping-pong is not a game. It is a most profound expression of the right of this House to ask the Government to listen to its advice. That advice has been given with more eloquence, more persistence, and indeed more authority and passion than I can ever recall. It would not surprise me if Elton John were to write a new song about it— “Candle in the Wind”, or perhaps “fading footsteps in the snow”, along with the fading rights of every copyright holder in the country. Noble Lords may laugh if they wish, but 2.4 million people, their families and their friends will not think it a laughing matter. I find it a great shame. I leave it to others to decide whether it is also deeply shameful.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, I have not spoken previously on this issue, and I do not have the creative abilities of so many noble Members of this House, but I have listened repeatedly to these debates. It is right now to speak briefly in support of protecting our creative industries so that we can continue to reap the ripe rewards of their efforts.

We have to consider, as the noble Lord, Lord Russell, said, whose interests are being protected here. We have a duty to protect the wonderful creativity of our own country, which gives us so much pleasure and informs, educates and develops us in more ways than anything else can. We are under no obligation to protect others, but we are under an obligation to protect the interests of our people, not of massive tech industries.

I will support the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, because her amendment is the right thing to do. Even at this late stage, His Majesty’s Government could choose to act positively to respond to the massive concern that has been articulated in your Lordships’ House. If they do not do so, I very much hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, will seek to call a Division on this matter.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, said from the Government Benches that his Government have handled this issue badly. I think he used the word “appallingly”. That is indisputable. The question I have is, why? I suggest that the answer may have been stated by my noble friend Lord Russell of Liverpool. He put his finger on the point, referring to the concern of the United States Administration to protect the interests of AI companies. Noble Lords may know that the head of the United States Copyright Office was sacked last month, the day after she published a report identifying the importance of AI companies respecting copyright rights.

I have a question for the Minister, which I hope she will answer frankly. She said in her opening remarks that she recognised the importance of transparency. Will she tell the House, in the interests of transparency, what weight the Government have given to the concerns of the United States Government in resisting the repeated amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, over the last few weeks?

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, on Monday I asked almost precisely the same question of the Government and asked for a guarantee that no side deals or side understandings, or anything like that, had been done regarding the trade agreement we have with the United States. No answer has yet been forthcoming; I wish the noble Lord well in his adventure.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

I am delighted to be associated with the noble Lord on this, as on many other topics.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Monday 2nd June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, I have spent a delightful half an hour or so listening to some very pertinent, brief speeches, and I intend, with the leave of the House, to make my own. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for helping to stand up for my professional interests and those of my family and the 2.4 million people who earn their livings, livelihoods, pensions and retirements from their creative efforts. She is doing us a great service and I am very grateful to her for that.

There is an issue of constitutional rights here: how long do we go on with ping-pong? I have said before that the elected Government of course have the right to get their business through. But those rights also come with responsibilities, and those responsibilities, above all, include at least listening to this House when it expresses a view so consistently, so coherently and on so many occasions. I do not believe that the Government have given the appearance of listening to any of what has gone on here. It is not that difficult; husbands all around the country give the appearance of listening, even in the middle of watching football matches. The Government here have not even done the basic business of saying, “Yes, I understand, and we are listening”.

The last time we discussed this, I thought it was unfortunate, if not unfair, for the Government to imply that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, had turned down meetings with Ministers. That was unnecessary. It should not have been said, because that has nothing to do with the importance of her remarks. It is also deeply unhelpful when we in this House find ourselves having to come back, time and again, simply to ask the Government to listen, to offer coherent responses and not simply to dismiss what has been said here. What is this Chamber for if, after the debates we have had, the Government give absolutely nothing? They do not listen to this House or to Elton John, Paul McCartney or any of the hundreds of thousands of people involved in this industry who are saying, “Please, just do a little bit to show that you have understood the issue”.

I have been accused in the past of having a vivid imagination, but I wonder why this Government are so blatantly stubborn over this. If I were writing a novel, I would wonder what went on in Washington while we were doing that trade deal that was so trumpeted by this Government. Were any conversations going on behind the scenes that gave guarantees, commitments or understandings about what approach this Government would take to copyright and AI? We know that Elon Musk, who was a very powerful man in the White House, wanted the Government’s position and not the position that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, is taking.

Over the past few days, this side of the House has been accused by government Members of making arguments that were made in Nazi Germany in the 1930s. That was pretty shameful. It has nothing to do with this issue, although it did make me think: are we actually looking here at a digital Munich and bending the knee to a power with which we wanted to do a deal through backdoor agreements? Can the Minister please give us an absolute guarantee that no such behind-the-scenes, unannounced undertakings have been given? Otherwise, I fail to understand why this Government are being so stubborn.

In light of the fact that the Government have a right to get their business through— but they also have responsibilities, as we have responsibilities to stand up for what we believe to be entirely obviously correct—I will intend gladly and enthusiastically once again, if the noble Baroness pushes the issue, to march into the voting Lobbies with her on this issue.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, I am goaded by my own Front Bench to speak for the second time in favour of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. I also share the views of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth.

I have been a Minister in both Houses. I have been on the receiving end of ping-pong in both Houses, and I got bloody irritated by it. But I was never in a position, along with my Secretary of State, of sending back nothing. We sought to get a compromise. I can remember back to the late 1990s: the Labour Front Bench was sent by John Smith to Templeton College in Oxford to get some training. I can remember a former senior civil servant saying to us, “Whatever happens, it is never too late to avoid making a bad decision”. That is the position we are in now. We can avoid making a bad decision by having a degree of compromise, which has been missing throughout.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Monday 19th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

In supporting my noble friend Lady Kidron, I would like to make one or two things clear. The creative industries are not against AI. Filmmakers, television producers, composers and writers have helped to create the very technology that goes into AI. The creative industries are not trying to pull up the drawbridge, but rather want to monitor what is going across it. They want to police it. As Sir Elton John said, not to do this could amount to a betrayal, because things begin to move very much in increasing volume. He said, importantly, that it is not about people like him; it is about, as the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, said, the next generation—the people who are creating music or writing novels now and getting a pittance for it. They and we do not want to see their work taken and exploited for nothing.

I ask noble Lords and the Minister—perhaps they have done this—to think about writing a novel over, say, two or three years, or creating a film, record or disc. You have had to put your own money into it, and then you find that your rights are being stolen. This is burglary. It is nothing else. I declare an interest as a composer. I have had music taken and put into film and adverts, and it is very difficult to stop it. The only way you will stop it is by acting now, before the gate is trampled down by the horses and the stable is empty.

It is all very well talking about a vehicle in the future, but we have heard several noble Lords say that the time to act is now. Sir Elton John has said that too, as have many famous composers. It is not just composers at the top of the pop tree; it is classical composers and contemporary composers who make a pittance—perhaps a few hundred pounds. There is a saying in Tin Pan Alley that “Where there’s a hit, there’s a writ”, and that is very true. As soon as you come up with something good, everybody wants it. If this door is left open, we will destroy the future of our creative industries. Let us stop it now.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for her indefatigable efforts. She has argued persuasively, patiently and passionately—and there is nothing wrong with a bit of passion in this Chamber, is there chuck?

It is not just the noble Baroness. We heard about Elton John over the weekend. He is a national treasure, an icon, a working-class boy made good, a role model who knows the creative industries from the very bottom and a man who is worth listening to, particularly, I would have thought, as he was a Labour supporter at the last election. Yet in his outrage at their complacency, Elton John called this Government “total losers”. Those are harsh words. He could have gone further, because the real losers are going to be the nearly 2.5 million of us—I must declare my interest—who work in the creative industries. All of us could be losers. Yet all this amendment really asks for is a bit of transparency so that we in the creative industries know who will be using our work, which we have slogged away at, struggled with and often suffered to create.

The elected Government must, of course, get what they want, but they do not know what they want. Only the other day, the same Government were proclaiming their commitment to soft power and declaring that the creative industries are a vital part of it. Ministers said that our world-beating creative industries are one of the country’s greatest assets. Did they mean it, or were they just empty words? Why are Ministers burying themselves in their departmental silos? All we are asking is for the Government to support their own policies and join them together—give it some harmony, if you like, and follow Sir Elton down that yellow brick road which has created so much success not simply for him but for the entire country.

It is because of that great success, because our creative industries are world-beaters, that so many others would love to have part of it. Of course we must protect our creative rights and intellectual property. Why are the Government leaving the front door open and the lights on, with a guard dog chained up at the back? Those who want it will not even need to hack our work; they can simply walk in and take it.

We should listen very closely to the wise words of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. The world is changing at speed almost beyond our imagination. Please allow us—the writers, the songsters, the artists, the composers—a little protection, so that we can carry on creating and enabling Britain not just to punch above our weight but to sing above the song. I would much prefer to see the Minister not as a total loser—that is entirely inappropriate—but as a great listener. I wait with bated breath and my pen poised.

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Leong) (Lab)]

As my noble friend the Chief Whip said at the start of this debate, we are now into the second round of ping-pong on this Bill. These issues have been debated extensively across Committee, Report and ping-pong last week. I urge all noble Lords to keep their contributions, and this debate, brief and focused.