Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Thursday 14th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee]

We remain in Parliament Square, as it were. Noble Lords will be glad to know that we have now got as far as page 100 in the Bill. Instead of giving the court the power to impose a sanction on an open-ended basis following the conviction of anyone who has committed an offence under the prohibited activities in the controlled area of Parliament Square, the amendment would limit that power and provide that no order may,

“prohibit a person from entering the controlled area of Parliament Square nor restrict a person’s right lawfully to demonstrate there”.

This is a simple proposition, I hope, that was suggested to me by the organisation Justice. It is right that Parliament Square is a public place which, as we have seen, will be well controlled, or better controlled than I would like. As noble Lords are all saying, it is a place where properly organised demonstrations and expressions of opinion are entirely appropriate. It is hard to imagine why it will be necessary to prohibit entry to the square altogether. These provisions will be targeted at demonstrators and it is important to the democratic process, again as noble Lords say, that provisions aimed at preventing setting up camps, in particular, do not have the by-product of silencing protests altogether. Rather than this blanket prohibition the court should properly look at dealing with offences on an offence-by-offence basis, not making an order, which is equivalent to an injunction, for the future. It is almost more akin to convenience than a proper criminal sanction. That is what underlies my amendment.

While I am speaking, I wonder whether I can have a word about two of the government amendments in this group, Amendments 307ZA and 309ZE. The Minister will explain the application of this very old legislation—the Parks Regulation (Amendment) Act 1926. I assume that this is a device to extend certain controls relating to seizure to other areas near to Parliament. What will be given by these provisions are powers to yet another class of official—we have park constables in this legislation. Are we giving powers to unwarranted officers to make seizures? How will that regime fit in with the arrangements to be made for Parliament Square? The legislation refers to a park trading offence, and as I read the existing legislation, that will require some regulation. Perhaps that can be clarified. My concern is that we should not be adding to the confusion by a different regime. As regards Amendment 306C, I beg to move.

[Lord Dubs]

I should like to speak to Amendment 307 standing in my name. I am a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights and we spent quite a lot of time considering this Bill. I hope that the Minister will not mind if I go public on a private conversation she and I had some little while ago. I buttonholed the Minister in the Corridor and said that I had an amendment that I was sure she would see to be so sensible that she would give it her support. She looked at me and said, “Yes, that’s what they all say”. I still believe that this is a very helpful amendment.

When we give powers to the police there should be codes of guidance under which the police would operate. There are many precedents for having such codes: I will come to them in a moment. The Bill contains complexities that the police will find it hard to work around. Reference has already been made to structures, sleeping equipment and authorisation for amplification such as loudspeakers. These will be difficult decisions for the police to make—all the more so because I think I am right in saying that one has to get authorisation 21 days in advance for using loudspeakers, but only six days in advance for holding a demo. One has to apply much earlier for the right to use loudspeakers than for the right to demonstrate at all. This is confusing, and it will be difficult for the police to implement.

--- Later in debate ---

Tabled by

[Lord Dubs]

307: After Clause 151, insert the following new Clause—
“Guidance issued under this Part
(1) The Secretary of State shall issue guidance on—
(a) prohibited activities under section 145;(b) directions under section 145(1);(c) seizure and retention of property under section 147;(d) authorisations for the operation of amplified noise equipment under section 149.(2) Guidance issued under subsection (1)(a) shall include—
(a) further details defining the terms—(i) “structure that is designed, or adapted, (solely or mainly) for the purpose of facilitating sleeping or staying in a place for any period”,(ii) “sleeping equipment”,(iii) “the purpose of sleeping or staying in that area”, and(iv) “the purpose of sleeping overnight”;(b) guidance about the treatment of amplified noise equipment used by disabled persons for the purposes of communication.(3) Guidance issued under subsection (1)(b) shall include provision about—
(a) the circumstances in which a direction under section 145(1) may be made;(b) the form of any direction given under section 145(1), in particular—(i) the circumstances when a direction or the variation of a direction must be in writing;(ii) the arrangements for the identification of a constable or authorised officer making a direction or variation of a direction;(iii) the appropriate duration of any direction or variation of a direction; and(iv) the requirements for notice and communication of a direction or a variation of a direction to the person or persons subject to such a direction.(4) Guidance issued under subsection (1)(c) shall include provision about the circumstances in which the powers under section 147(1) shall be exercised, in particular—
(a) the identification and notification of the owner of any relevant prohibited item; and(b) the use of force by constables under section 147(4).(5) Guidance issued under subsection (1)(d) shall include provision about—
(a) the criteria for withholding authorisation; (b) any exemptions from authorisation for equipment used by disabled persons for the purposes of communication;(c) the conditions which may be imposed by the responsible authority in connection with any authorisation;(d) the target timetables for processing applications for authorisation (including fast-track procedures for priority authorisation);(e) the form and manner of—(i) the application for authorisation,(ii) the notice of authorisation, and(iii) the notice of variation of any authorisation;(f) the maximum fee to be paid for determining any application.(6) Before issuing guidance under this section the Secretary of State must—
(a) publish a draft of the proposed guidance; and(b) conduct a public consultation on the draft guidance.(7) In preparing draft guidance, the Secretary of State must, in particular, consult—
(a) the metropolitan police force;(b) the Greater London Authority;(c) Westminster City Council; and(d) the Director of Public Prosecutions.(8) Guidance issued under this section must be made by statutory instrument and is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.”

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, I draw a little comfort from the fact that the Minister has said that non-statutory guidance will be introduced. That addresses some of the points in my amendment.

Amendment 307 not moved.

European Arrest Warrant and Investigation Order

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Wednesday 26th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, the Government are concerned, as I have just said, with the disproportionate use of the European arrest warrant for trivial purposes. That is one of the reasons why we have asked Sir Scott Baker, with the panel that he is heading on extradition, to look specifically at the operation of the European arrest warrant. He is able to take submissions from Members of this House and others and I hope that the noble Lord will take advantage of that.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, of course one must share the Minister’s concern about the civil liberties principles at stake, which sometimes are being breached, as the noble Lord said. On the other hand, will the Minister confirm that some serious criminals charged with terrorism or other equally serious offences have been brought back to Britain to face trial through the use of the European arrest warrant?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

Indeed, my Lords, and I suspect that that is why our predecessors signed up to this measure when they were in office. It is the case that it has facilitated the return of prisoners to jurisdiction, so the noble Lord makes a perfectly valid point.

Counterterrorism Review

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Wednesday 26th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

I take this opportunity to reiterate my thanks to the noble Lord for his contribution, which is very significant to the work of the review. He makes some important points and has outlined more eloquently than I have the effect of reducing the measures in relation to individuals that constitute a new balance between public protection and the rights of the individual. We believe, however, as the noble Lord acknowledges himself, that it remains necessary that measures of this kind are available in the interest of public protection. He is right that there is more work to be done on some of the detail, and as we work through the legislation and subsequently its implementation, I am sure that more detail will come into effect.

On the question of the regime of restrictions and the need for a closer link to criminal investigation, the Government share the view that it is important to increase the possibility within this regime of bringing successful prosecution. We are mindful of that being the proper goal. As the Home Secretary said in her Statement, terrorists should be behind bars in a prison cell. At the same time we draw back from the notion that one would not be able to introduce a measure of this kind in the absence of a close link to and a realistic prospect of being able to introduce a prosecution. We do not wish, therefore, to claim that we can do that, given that it might not be an honest claim. What I can say on the part of the Government is that we will try very hard to ensure that the maximum possibility for bringing prosecution in any given instance is a clear objective.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, the Minister has twice referred to pre-legislative scrutiny. Will she confirm that all the measures she has mentioned today will be subject to full pre-legislative scrutiny?

Secondly, she mentioned intercept evidence. The previous Government were looking at it and her Government have been looking at it. When are some positive proposals likely to come forward, because if we can accept the use of intercept evidence, some of the other measures will not be necessary?

Immigration: High Court Ruling

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Monday 20th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I am not clear quite how relevant the points that my noble friend has just made are to this debate. Most of the people coming in, except for a very small number, are sponsored to this country, so it will not be difficult to know when they are moving—their employers will not be able to have a new person in, in the absence of being able to demonstrate that those who previously had that sponsorship have left.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, if I understood the Minister correctly, she said that the Government will be involving the other place in the proposed changes to be announced tomorrow. Will there be a similar process whereby this House can be involved with those changes?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

That is a matter for the usual channels.

Public Disorder at NUS Rally

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Thursday 11th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I am sure that the police will be extremely grateful for what the noble Lord has just quite rightly said. I am sure that one of the points that the head of the Metropolitan Police will be looking at is the question of access to the House, which was not available to vehicles for rather more than two hours. I am sure that he will want to look at the whole question of how you combine the right to peaceful protest with continuing to enable Members of the House and, indeed, members of the public to gain access to the Palace of Westminster during protests. Perhaps I might say that the president of the NUS, to do him credit, has written to the head of the Metropolitan Police saying in formal terms that he is willing to co-operate with the police in their investigation, which shows a good sign of responsibility on the part of the NUS and its president.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, I join in praising the police for their efforts yesterday and in condemning those demonstrators who resorted to violence, thereby weakening their case. I am pleased that the Government have committed themselves to the right of peaceful protest, as we all do. However, I have one difficulty with what the Minister said: that it was not a matter of resources. If the police are using what intelligence they have to assess the likely amount of trouble that may be associated with a demo, the pressure on the police will be to have police officers in reserve and sitting in their vans in case trouble should develop. The difficulty for the police is that keeping those officers there is pretty expensive in overtime. I should like an assurance that the pressures on police finances, through the Government’s decisions, will not be allowed to affect the right and the ability of the police to have officers in reserve, should they seek to do so.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I should perhaps have been more specific when I commented that it was not a matter of resources. It was not a matter of the availability of resources. This was not a case where the police were constrained from having the necessary resources available. I think that it was an operational decision that they were not necessary but, as regards the future, that is obviously going to be very important. I am sure that the police will wish to make sure that in the resources available to them are the resources necessary for policing this kind of demonstration.

Parliament Square

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Monday 8th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

The Government share my noble friend’s sentiments and those of the House. Let me say what the Government have been trying to do. My honourable friend in the other House, the Minister for crime prevention, has been working with the GLA, Westminster Council and the police—there are, of course, several authorities involved in Parliament Square—to bring about the situation we have now. As we know, the squatters have been evicted, the grass has been reseeded and the pavements have been repaired, so we are dealing with the mess. The problem is that the continuing demonstration is based on the existing law, which allows one person to attach 20 others to the application for a demonstration. That law, which was passed in 2005, has been abused in a way that Parliament most certainly did not intend. That is why we believe that it is necessary to bring forward legislative proposals, which we intend to do in a first Session Bill, to clarify this situation and to restore the balance between the right to protest and public enjoyment of an amenity such as Parliament Square.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, the Minister referred to working with several authorities. Will she explain who owns the middle of Parliament Square?

Biometric Passports

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Dubs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have proposals to introduce biometric passports.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville-Jones)]

My Lords, British passports have contained biometric information in the form of facial recognition technology since 2006. There are no plans to introduce a second biometric, such as fingerprints, into passports.

[Lord Dubs]

First, given that many countries have said that they expect visitors to have full biometric data in their passports, will that not make it much more difficult for British people to travel in the future, especially to the United States? Secondly, will the Minister confirm that forged passports have been involved in almost every known case of terrorism? Surely biometric passports are much harder to forge than the ones that we have at the moment.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, the noble Lord has raised various points. There are no reasons at all to suppose that the absence of a second biometric in British passports will in any way hinder the ability of British citizens to travel to whichever country they wish to enter. The United States takes the fingerprints of people entering the country but does not insist on fingerprints in passports. The US does not itself have, or intend to put, fingerprints into its passports.

This Government entirely agree with the noble Lord that passport security is extremely important. Although the move to introduce a second biometric will not continue, one part of the programme that definitely will continue is the strengthening of security surrounding the existing facial biometric.

Afghanistan: Child Asylum Seekers

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Thursday 10th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I am sure that the House entirely agrees that this is a very difficult issue. We are in an age of migration, but we have to consider the alternatives. Unless this country is prepared to take every single individual who arrives on our shores as a result of having been trafficked through the system and to keep them indefinitely—in the end as our citizens—we have to find a humane way of returning people. These provisions are designed precisely to provide that degree of humanity and assistance to the young people who arrive here.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, how will the Government monitor the safety and well-being of those children who are returned to Afghanistan? Also, will the Government give an assurance that this is not a precedent for returning children to other countries as well?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, part of the service of providing assistance for reintegration will be to find these children’s families if they have not found them and to attempt to get them a job and an education. Actually, these young people are being helped to be put in a position that they might not have been in when they left their country. I do not think that we are doing them a disservice. On the question of wider immigration and deportation arrangements, that will obviously depend on the circumstances of each country, as the noble Lord knows.

Immigration

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Thursday 3rd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs]

Would not one way of reducing dependence on control orders be to look again at the question of intercept evidence? Will the Minister indicate whether the coalition is looking at the possibility that intercept evidence might be used in our courts?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, as the House will be aware, the Chilcot commission is conducting its work but has not yet finished it. I have had discussions on this and I am quite satisfied that the serious work being done by the Chilcot commission needs to be concluded. As the noble Lord knows, we would like to be able to introduce intercept evidence but we have to await the outcome of that work. We will come back to the House.

Immigration: Detention of Children

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord very much for his kind words. I certainly agree that we want to progress this as rapidly as possible. I cannot unfortunately give him a deadline today, but I hope that my honourable friend in the other House will have more details really quite shortly. At the moment, we are working with various charities and NGOs that will help us to find solutions so that we can come forward with something that is not just process but that incorporates a solution. We will do that as rapidly as we can. The noble Lord is quite right that we need to end this as soon as possible.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, many of us who have argued for years that children should not be detained under immigration powers will welcome what the Government appear to want to do. Will the Minister confirm, however, that ending the detention of children must mean that families—parents as well as the children—will no longer be detained? If it does not, this will involve separating children from their families, which would be a retrograde step.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

We certainly aim not to separate families from children or children from families. The noble Lord is quite right, and I think the House would agree, that this is not an ideal form of detention. I cannot say categorically how we will work it out, but the aim is certainly to keep families together.