News Corporation: Conduct of Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Monday 30th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Richard, is quite deliberately misunderstanding the position and misunderstanding what the Prime Minister has said. An allegation was made at the Leveson inquiry. It is entirely right and proper that the Secretary of State should be able to go and give evidence on the same terms and by the same method as those who have accused him of wrongdoing.

Incidentally, the decision on whether to refer the case to Sir Alex Allan is a decision for the Prime Minister. He can make that decision whenever he wants. He has suggested that he will make that decision—or take action, if he believes there was any wrongdoing—following the evidence being made public in the Leveson inquiry. The Leveson inquiry is a proper inquiry where, as I pointed out, evidence will be taken under oath and there will be cross-examination of the witnesses by barristers; in other words, the evidence that has been given already will be properly tested. That is entirely appropriate and there is no confusion at all between the two issues.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, the Prime Minister has said that he will await the evidence given by Mr Secretary Hunt to the Leveson inquiry. That may or may not be a rational stance to take. I take very much on board what the noble Lord, Lord Richard, says. It is outside the remit of the Leveson inquiry to adjudicate upon that matter. Putting that aside, perhaps I may ask this pertinent question of the Leader of the House. When the time comes for the Prime Minister to decide whether or not to refer this matter to Sir Alex Allan as a matter of ministerial discipline, will the Prime Minister be acting in a political capacity or a quasi-judicial capacity? If I may be allowed the luxury of a supplementary question, will the Prime Minister be regarding himself as acting in a judicial or a political capacity?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, in that event, the Prime Minister will be acting as Prime Minister. He will decide whether to take action directly himself—or not to, because he believes there is no evidence—or to refer the matter to Sir Alex Allan.

Housing (Scotland) Act 2010 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2012

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, I had no intention to come in yesterday and I had no intention to come in today. I rise only to try and be helpful, if that is possible. I took the bother to find out in Hansard what the Speaker said. He said:

“I must draw the House’s attention to the fact that financial privilege is involved in a substantial number of Lords amendments”.

He did not say “all” the Lords amendments, but a “substantial number”.

“If the House agrees to these amendments, I shall ensure that the appropriate entry is made in the Journal”.—[Official Report, Commons, 1/2/12; col. 826.]

He was not saying any more than that it would be put in the Journal—in other words, it would be put in the minutes of the meeting. I think we are making heavy weather of this matter, if you do not mind me saying so. The House down the other end rejected the amendments. Those amendments then come back to us for consideration; and when they do, each and every one of us can go and seek advice from the Clerk of the Parliament and we can also get a Statement from the Leader of the House—it is a tall order.

It has been hinted again that there might have been influence from the Government on what the Speaker had to say. Let me say that it was like penance every week having to listen to both the opposition and government Chief Whips because they were always complaining and moaning. However, the one thing when it comes to privilege is that it is the Speaker and his advisers alone who decide. The worst thing that a government Whip—or an opposition Whip, if he feels it is to his advantage—can do is to come to the Speaker and seek to influence matters like this. It would be counterproductive. I ask noble Lords to wait until the amendments come. I hope I have not given the Clerk of the Parliaments too onerous a task.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I wonder if the Minister will agree that the letter of the law has been absolutely clear for three centuries—any money element can give rise to a situation where privilege can be successfully claimed. However, it is not entirely clear, from looking at Erskine May, whether it turns on some discretion vested in the Speaker or in interpretation, although it may very well be that the same result is achieved in the end. One either has a liberal view of the situation or a much narrower one. Looking at it legalistically, there is a world of difference between a range of interpretation and a range of discretion. Might I respectfully suggest that this can be settled only by discussion at the highest level and in the most statesmanlike way with the other place; otherwise, a great deal of the function of this House as a revising Chamber will be totally emasculated?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, may I just add to that point made by the noble Lord? I respectfully suggest to my noble friend the Leader of the House that he has a duty to the House as a whole, as well as to the Government’s interests. There have been a series of events that give the impression that the other place, which increasingly sends legislation up here that is not properly considered and debated, is treating this place with some contempt, not least of which is the suggestion that the Parliament Act might be used in respect of the reform of this place. I suggest to my noble friend that the time may have come for him to assert his authority as Leader of the House and have a frank chat with some of his colleagues.

European Council

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I do not at all agree with the noble Lord. This is not about the newspapers. I think that the British people generally accept and support what the Prime Minister did because they understand that he was standing up for vital British interests.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, the Leader of the House has time and again stated the clear intention of Her Majesty’s Government to assist the eurozone. Does he accept the stark reality of the situation; namely, that 17 countries with different economies and utterly disparate economic circumstances formed a eurozone but, when bad weather came along, disintegration became a very real possibility? In practice, the only two real possibilities are either that there should be a draconian situation of considerable discipline imposed on the eurozone or that there should be a United States of Europe or a Republic of Europe.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that is a huge question and one that requires a much longer debate on another occasion. However, I agree with the noble Lord that there is a mess. There needs to be discipline; whether that is in a United States of Europe is another question altogether.

European Council

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, says that he is suspicious—he did not quite use the words “new-fangled parliamentary processes”, but he might have done—of the role of e-petitions and of the Back-Bench committee of the other place that decided on what should be debated. I do not think that there is any real tension between that and the three party leaders taking a view. It may be that the Back-Bench committee thought that something was important to debate and the three party leaders took a different view. It is certainly a less tidy process, but it may be that people feel that by joining in these petitions they have debates brought to the Floor of the House. Those who signed up to this e-petition will no doubt be very pleased with its results—at least I hope they will be.

It is very tempting to get into long debates with the noble Lord about the role of a directly elected second House. I have no view as to whether a directly elected senate would wish to vote on whether we went to war. What the noble Lord did not ask, but what he meant, was about what would happen if those two bodies disagreed in some fundamental way. Many of these questions would be ironed out once an elected senate were in place and in a position to negotiate these matters with the House of Commons.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

Can the Leader of the House say whether Colonel Gaddafi’s second son and nominated heir is still alive and, if so, whether every effort will be made to capture him alive and to make him stand trial? Such a trial might cast a flood of light upon both the Lockerbie bombing and the murder of WPC Fletcher.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I do not know whether he is still alive but, on the basis that he is, our role would be to stick to UN Security Council Resolution 1973 and to protect civilians in Libya. We would certainly expect the Libyan regime—the NTC—to work within the rule of law; and if he were arrested he should be brought to trial so that we could find the answers to these questions.

Hereditary Peers

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, we will continue what successive Governments have done in the many debates on my noble friend’s Bill. There is one very good reason for being consistent, because there is before Parliament a draft Bill that is being examined by a Joint Committee of this House.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, does the Leader of the House agree that while undoubtedly Parliament has the authority to legislate in respect of succession to the throne, according to the learned editor of the fourth edition of volume 8 of Halsbury's Laws of England—which I checked an hour ago—at paragraph 35 and the footnotes thereto, two other powers are germane to the issue? One is the power of Parliament to elect a monarch—a power that has never been withdrawn. Secondly, of course, there are the common law principles of hereditary succession. When the Prime Minister wrote, under the Statute of Westminster 1931, to Commonwealth countries, consulting them on changes in relation to succession to the throne, did he point out this fascinating constitutional conundrum?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I rather wish I had checked, because if I had done so I would have had a far clearer answer to the noble Lord’s question. The noble Lord is of course entirely correct about the Statute of Westminster. As to the other parts of his research, perhaps I might have the opportunity of examining that outside the House.

Libya

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, we have every confidence in the Gibson inquiry. The scope of the inquiry has been carefully drawn up to keep it manageable and to ensure that it can meet the Prime Minister’s requirement for it to report within a year. The inquiry will look at the policies of the UK intelligence agencies on working with other countries holding detainees, including allegations relating to torture, improper treatment and rendition. I do not think that the Gibson inquiry itself has asked for extra powers, and we feel happy and are confident that it will be able to achieve its task.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the House will accept that, on the face of it, it would appear that the main objectives of Resolutions 1970 and 1973 are very near to being achieved in the sense that organised resistance on behalf of Colonel Gaddafi is now limited to a very few specific areas. Nevertheless, as the Leader of the House put it, it may well be technically correct to say that those resolutions will still have a relevance unless and until Gaddafi is killed, is captured or flees the country. That may take a very long time. In order, therefore, that there should be no dubiety as to the status of international organisations in this context, will he give an assurance that Her Majesty’s Government, sooner rather than later, will seek and support a resolution of the Security Council to enable the sinews of life to be provided immediately for the people of Libya and, indeed, so that the physical reconstruction and matters of governance can be put in place as soon as possible?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I think I can put the noble Lord’s mind at rest by saying that the British Government are already discussing within the United Nations resolutions that will do exactly what the noble Lord has suggested. He is also right about UN Security Council Resolutions 1970 and 1973. Last week at the Paris conference, we collectively reiterated our commitment to continue to protect civilians in Libya in accordance with those Security Council resolutions, which I think is entirely appropriate.

Parliament Act 1911: Centenary

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Tuesday 28th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

No, my Lords, I could not possibly agree with that. I am surprised by what the noble Lord says, with all his knowledge about Lloyd George. You have only to read the preamble to the 1911 Act to understand that those who passed it clearly wished and hoped fervently for an elected House in due course.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

On the issue of a preamble—I am sure that its words are constantly in the forefront of the noble Lord’s mind—is it not the case that it is a massive misconception to believe there was any reference in it to an elected House? What was anticipated was a more popular House—a much broader concept than an elected House. Is it not the case that 47 years later, with the Life Peerages Act 1958, that was greatly achieved? It created a balance of gender, geography, ethnicity and background which is so necessary for a reviewing Chamber.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that the passing of the 1958 Act was a significant moment and a significant improvement in the selection of Members of this House. I have no idea whether it was influenced in any way by what happened in 1911. All I know is that at the previous general election all three main parties stood on a manifesto in favour of an elected House.

Draft House of Lords Reform Bill

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Tuesday 7th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Richard]

I will say two things to the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale. First, I do not share the view that the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Cunningham would kick this into the long grass, despite the fact that, as fair parts of the House know full well, I have been a supporter of a predominantly elected House for almost as long as the noble Lord has been a Member. It therefore seems to me that there are two things that this Committee will have to do. One is to look at the terms of the Cunningham amendment. Of course the Committee has got to look at the primacy of the House of Commons. It would be silly to try to produce a report without looking at that issue. The primacy of the House of Commons has to be preserved. The second point that the noble Lord made is also pretty fundamental and obvious: the Committee will have to look at the conventions that exist between this House and the other place.

For the life of me, I do not really see what the issue is on this. An awful lot of speeches are being made which, if I may respectfully say so to some of those who have made them, would perhaps be better made in the debate on 21 and 22 June, when we are yet again to look at the whole issue of Lords reform. No doubt we will have, yet again, the same sort of speeches made by, yet again, the same sort of people, which, I fear I must say to the House, will probably include me. The fact of the matter is that on any view of this Committee, it will have to look in detail and take serious account of what is in the Cunningham amendment. I do not share the noble Lord’s view that this is kicking it into the long grass. On the other hand, I share some of the misgivings that have been raised about the date. This is a big, fundamental, constitutional issue. It is not feasible that it can be done by January next year.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I shall speak very briefly. The British community has mulled over the question of the reform of this place for over a century. It is now the case that a Committee will be asked to exercise its collective wisdom within the short compass of nine months. It may well be that it can achieve that. If, on the other hand, it comes to the conclusion that it honestly and conscientiously would wish more time, will the Leader of the House confirm that it would be given that time with the blessing of both Houses? Secondly, all noble Lords who have spoken have made the point that the questions of powers and membership of this House are utterly intertwined. Is it not very strange that in 1911 the whole discussion was about powers, as it was in 1949, whereas since then the whole discussion has been about membership? I do not think for a moment that you can discuss one without the other, and I do not think that you can contemplate a reformed, elected House without the question of powers being revisited. Anybody who believes that that can be done is using a monumental self-delusion.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

I hope the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, will forgive me for being quite angry about the aspersion that was cast on those of us who share the views expressed about the importance of the primacy of the Commons, about the conventions and about the future relationship between both Houses. If those of us who take the view that that must be done first, before membership, are going to be accused of kicking the issue into the long grass as blindfolded escapists on the issue, the tenor of all the debates that take place in your Lordships' House and in Committees will not be of the quality that they ought to be. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, will not imply that kicking the issue into the long grass is the only motivation that some of us have. I wish to leave a better system in the Houses of Parliament for my children and, particularly, my grandchildren, but jumping without looking at what is down the hole is not the way to do it.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I have dealt with the question about accountability and 15 years. If the White Paper had proposed a first-past-the-post system, my noble friend could quite legitimately say that two Houses elected on a similar mandate could well clash far more than those elected on different mandates. It is up to my noble friend but I am sure that he does not think that PR is a more legitimate system than first past the post.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, may I—

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that is a clever argument, but it will not wash. There is no intention at all to change the primacy of another place or of the Government being able to govern by commanding a majority in another place. In fact, PR would preserve the system that we have here, whereby the Government do not have a majority.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

May I warmly congratulate the noble Lord the Leader of the House, on the consummate skill with which he side-stepped the question of the possible invocation of the Parliament Act, were this House to afford a total challenge to the other place? Does he appreciate that, in the fox hunting case of some years ago, learned Lords expressed the gravest doubts whether a fundamental constitutional change could possibly be brought about by such a machinery? In the circumstances, may I suggest to him that that is a matter to be decided now, not when the cameral battle begins? Will he say whether the Government have taken legal advice on this matter, and if so, what that legal advice was?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I cannot say whether or not the Government have taken legal advice on this specifically, but my reading of that judgment and my understanding of the constitutional position is that the Parliament Act would apply to a Bill brought similarly along the lines of the draft Bill published today.

Parliament: Elected House of Lords

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Monday 16th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Noble Lords]

Cross-Bench!

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

Does the Minister accept that even if there were to be no formal change in the powers of this House, in practice a wholly or largely elected House would find it very difficult to show the sensitive respect for the primacy of the House of Commons that this Chamber does with, from time to time, a few justifiable aberrations?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is a good point that a wholly elected House may well wish to use the powers of this House in a more assertive way and no doubt that is one of the issues a Joint Committee would wish to look at.