Leader of the House: Cabinet Membership

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Wednesday 16th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, we could continue this session for at least another five minutes so that these important and valuable constitutional questions could be addressed. I think that the House is owed that by the Government.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, I respectfully put to the noble Baroness the Leader of the House that the Act which limits the number of Cabinet members to 23 essentially creates a first and second division. The first division comprises ex officio members of the Cabinet, and that is a special status. In the 300-year life of the Cabinet as we know it, there has never before been a situation when at least one Member of the Lords, and probably more than one Member, was not an ex officio member. Has the Prime Minister done this out of oversight or out of a deliberate policy in relation to this House?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My right honourable friend the Prime Minister clearly has to operate in accordance with the legislation that prescribes how many Cabinet posts can attract a salary. He has made his decisions on his appointments, as he is at liberty to do, and I believe that he has made those decisions properly. I understand that noble Lords want to keep debating this matter but, as there is very little more for me to offer beyond what I have said so far today, I can only repeat what I said: some important points have been made but I am quite clear that the status that the Prime Minister has afforded me accords me to do my job appropriately.

EU Council June 2014

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Monday 30th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

Not in the time that we have available, when I know a lot of other noble Lords want to get in. It clearly is an important job, and that is why we were determined to try to make sure that the process for appointing the person followed the approaches that we thought were set out in the treaties. However, the Government’s position is not the same as that of UKIP. The Prime Minister intends to work extremely hard over the next three years to try to negotiate a package of measures that he will feel confident in putting to the British people in a referendum, which we aim to hold before the end of 2017.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, in relation to the Prime Minister’s intentions and aims in this matter, does the noble Lord the Leader of the House recollect that last year in Kazakhstan the Prime Minister made a speech in which he said that he would wish to see the boundaries of the European Union extended eastwards to the Urals? He was not speaking of associate status. Is that still his intention? Is that the policy of Her Majesty’s Government?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, there are generally a number of countries in discussion with the European Union about becoming members. We have had the signing of the association agreements with Georgia, Moldova and, obviously, Ukraine. There was a discussion at the European Council about Albania being able to apply for status. There is appetite for membership to continue to grow.

G7

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Thursday 12th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I simply do not accept the underlying point that I suspect the noble Lord makes—namely, that the current travails in Ukraine and Crimea were caused by the EU. If one is looking to attribute blame—if that is the right word—for recent behaviour, it is far more straightforward to consider the illegal and unrecognised referendum in Crimea, the other action that was taken and the support given to people to destabilise it than to lay the blame on the EU. I note the wish expressed by the people of Ukraine to have a closer relationship with countries in the West, which was restated in the recent election.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, the chances of Russia surrendering Crimea, short of by war, must be nil. However, it seems to me of the utmost importance to make it very clear to Mr Putin that there must be no more Sudetenland initiatives in relation to any part of the former Russian empire. I very much bear in mind what Mr Putin said some years ago concerning the G8—namely, that Russia’s accession to the G8 was the defining achievement of his public career. He may very well have been totally sincere in that. Therefore, there should be not only negative sanctions, if needs be, but positive allurements as well, which may result in him accepting that it is not too late to come to the stool of penitence and to show that he has respect for international law and international obligations.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I very much agree with that; it is what everyone would want. Whether it is the stool of penitence or somewhere else, I hope that we can get to a point where we normalise relations and Russia rejoins the G8. However, certain things need to happen before that can come about.

Legal Aid

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Wednesday 8th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I repeat my assurance to noble Lords that the Government continue to consult. Indeed, we have just had close to 2,000 responses to the latest consultation on legal aid. As part of those discussions, I am sure that we will take on board the noble Lord’s comment, which seems a very sensible suggestion.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that over the past few years when there have been discussions concerning cuts in legal aid on a broad basis, the Government have accepted that there are massive downstream costs which greatly erode what otherwise might seem to be an attractive saving? Can the Minister tell the House what surveys have been made of such downstream costs and what the results of those surveys are, and, in the event that such surveys were not made, how any Government could have been so monumentally imprudent as to jump into the dark in such a situation?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I am afraid that I do not agree with the noble Lord. This is not a jump into the dark; it is a recognition of the current situation that the Government face across the board and across every department. We are seeking to focus legal aid spending on those who most need it. Spending on legal aid in the UK amounts to about £39 per head. I reiterate that one should look at some of the figures, even making international comparisons. Compared with like-for-like systems—for example, New Zealand at £18, Canada at £10 and Ireland, next door to us, at £20 per head—our legal system will, after the efficiencies are made, still remain one of the best in the world.

Immigration

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Tuesday 7th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness. One thing that we have done is to increase very significantly the fixed penalty for employers for not paying the minimum wage. We also need to look at a number of instances where immigrant labour is being abused—for instance, agricultural workers from eastern Europe. The noble Baroness is right; we need to keep a grip on this.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, whatever reservations we might or might not have had concerning the expansion of the European Union, will Her Majesty’s Government give an undertaking that unless and until we extricate ourselves from the Union, we will loyally and honourably accept all our legal obligations in respect of it?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I assure the House that Her Majesty’s Government do have a policy of adhering to treaty obligations. That is why we are very happy with the accession of Romania and Bulgaria to the EU, and with the free movement of those peoples, from 1 January.

Algeria

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Monday 21st January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The noble Lord very accurately reflects the interconnections that exist between criminality, terrorism and all the different factors which come together. As he said, we know how criminal activity is used to fund terrorist activity in a horrible nexus in a number of places. He is right to emphasise that we need to find ways of tackling both strands in the solutions that we develop: both security and military, and political. As far as the EU is concerned, it is one of a number of different bodies with which we need to work to find solutions. The support which it is providing for training in Mali is one example, and there are others too. I agree with the noble Lord that we need to do everything that we can to build on that.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

The noble Lord the Leader of the House referred to French intervention in Mali. It is of course accepted that that is not only lawful, but laudable, and historically utterly understandable. Does he agree, however, that in such terrifying circumstances as these, the maximum premium should be placed upon collective responsibility and concerted action? Is he able to say whether the Government of France came to any consideration or discussion on this matter with any country other than Mali, including of course the neighbouring African countries, before sending troops into Mali?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am afraid that I am not able to add a great amount in response to the noble Lord’s question. I know that it is the case, as he has said, that the Malian Government invited the French to undertake that intervention. It was urgent in the circumstances on the ground. If I can find better particulars I will of course pass them on to the noble Lord with great pleasure.

Leveson Inquiry

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Thursday 29th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. Lord Justice Leveson has created a new, self-regulatory system. We expect the press to put it into effect as quickly as possible. We should all be guardians to make sure that the press sticks to the new regulatory system.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I join in with the well deserved congratulations tendered in respect of Lord Justice Leveson, but does the Minister agree that a great deal of irrelevant nonsense has been spoken on the issue of freedom of the press? The press is subject to the law of sedition, defamation, treason, contempt and dozens of other fundamental legal principles, yet remains free. In Leveson we have nothing more than a statutory framework for spelling out certain principles of human decency that should have been abided by all along.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I do not entirely agree with the noble Lord that there has been a lot of nonsense spoken, but I do agree that there are statutes designed specifically to deal with excesses not just of the press but of other people as well. There are also instances—for example data protection—where the press has a privileged position and is excluded from the law. This is one area we need to examine.

Arrangement of Business

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Monday 5th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is because of the eminence of the four individuals who have brought forward this amendment that I pray in aid my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford. Why cannot they find a better way of doing it?

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

May I make a point which has not, I believe, been touched upon up to now? There are procedural issues that are fascinating and of massive impact; there are also constitutional issues dealing with the possible merits of the amendment that are of massive impact. One point that I suggest should be considered by anybody who has the future of this House, and indeed the good of Parliament, in mind with regard to the two statutes we are concerned with—first, the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 and, secondly, the matter now before the House—has been very pertinently made in the most excellent opinion of Mr James Goudie, a Queen’s Counsel. It is that those two pieces of legislation, assuming that the ERA Bill goes through in its present form, are out of sync one with the other.

I can put it very simply in this way. In so far as the 2011 Act is concerned, the number of registered electors is the very touchstone of the approach of the Boundary Commission to the situation of a particular constituency. I do not think anybody would disagree with that. In relation to this proposed legislation, however, that situation is fluid not solid. It is fluid in this sense; at the moment, it is the householder who is legally responsible for registering persons living in his property. From the time that the ERA Bill becomes law, it will, of course, be a responsibility upon the individual elector. The effect will be that in the first instance there will be a fall in the number of registered electors in each constituency—I do not think that anybody can dispute this—because of the change in responsibility between the individual and the householder. Any calculation made by the Boundary Commissions will therefore be inaccurate. That is why the two pieces of legislation are out of sync one with the other. It was contemplated at one time that both should be looked upon as one whole. In a speech on 5 July 2010, the Prime Minister said that the effects of the proposals would be considered together. That is what I urge upon the Government in this context.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I mean no disrespect at all to the noble Lord, and no doubt what he has said will be debated when we get to the Bill, but I wonder if the time might have come for us to proceed with the business of the day.

House of Lords: Reform

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Monday 8th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, there is a Question on tomorrow’s Order Paper that will deal with that.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

Does the Minister accept that it will be the verdict of history that the proposed reform failed because it was fundamentally and fatally flawed? It created a situation whereby mutual strangulation would have been the order of the day between the two Houses. Will he give an undertaking to the House that any future consideration, which of course must encompass the primacy of the House of Commons, should be on the basis of a written constitution?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it will certainly be for historians to take a view on what happened, not only during the past two and a half years but over the past 15 years over which the debate has raged. However, as I said, more than two-thirds of the House of Commons voted in favour of an elected second Chamber. I do not think that the Bill was fatally flawed, but I do think that there will be no further progress until the House of Commons understands the full implications of an elected House being more independent, stronger and able to hold it and the Government to account.

House of Lords Reform Bill

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Wednesday 27th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, all I can say is, you could have fooled me. I have seen the noble Lord robustly defend or indeed attack a piece of legislation in this House. But I meet with the Deputy Prime Minister very regularly and I shall draw the noble Lord’s remarks to his attention.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords—

[Lady Saltoun of Abernethy]

My Lords—