Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Rowlands

Report stage (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 14th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rowlands (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the amendments, which are similar to those that I had the pleasure of moving in Committee. Since then, we have had a most interesting and informative letter— yet another Bourne letter, I may say; the collected correspondence of the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, is becoming voluminous—that is extraordinarily revealing. It appears that if we have bad habits, other Assemblies, including the Welsh Assembly, are now catching them. The letter tells us:

“In 2015 and 2016, eight out of the twelve Acts passed by the Assembly included a power for Welsh Ministers to make consequential amendments to Acts of Parliament”—

that is, our Parliament—

“without any role for Parliament to scrutinise such secondary legislation”.

It turns out that the Assembly is doing exactly what we are threatening to do. It is bringing in legislation, including Henry VIII powers, that will then be used to amend legislation, primary and secondary, that this House has passed. That is a constitutional absurdity and we have to put a stop to it at both ends.

In fact, not only has the Welsh Assembly taken these Henry VIII powers in eight of its 12 Acts, it has exercised them already. In three cases it has amended our primary legislation without our knowing or being consulted. I do not know who was asked. I ask the Minister to elaborate on this, because it is all in his letter. Another four pieces of secondary legislation have been made by the Assembly that amend SIs made by the UK Parliament. So there are three pieces of primary legislation and four secondary that have been amended by the Welsh Assembly, using their Henry VIII powers, without either this House or the other House knowing.

I have the privilege of serving on two committees of this House that spend a lot of time on secondary legislation, as well as the Joint Committee with the Commons. They are most impressive committees. An enormous amount of effort is taken and thorough, diligent work is done by the legal advisers and the members of the Committees. We pore over our draft statutory instruments and report if there is any special reason—if we need to draw attention to defective drafting, in the case of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, or to vires issues or broader issues in the case of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.

I am astonished that we spend all this time making sure that we bring to this House statutory instruments that are fit for purpose, yet I now find that another Assembly—the Welsh Assembly—has amended the statutory instruments that we have so carefully prepared. I do not know how it has amended them; I do not know the nature of the amendment—I will press the Minister to explain in a minute—but this is the sort of situation that we get into. It is a sort of inter-ministerial legislative stitch-up: “You can amend it in your legislation —it is sufficient, it saves time and it is convenient”. Neither House should be interested in ministerial convenience. It is our job to be inconvenient at times, and I believe we should be in this case.

Will the Minister now tell us, based on the letter he has sent us, which sections of which Acts of Parliament—primary legislation—the Assembly has amended? I do not have a clue; none of our committees seems to have found out about it. Secondly, which statutory instruments have been amended by the National Assembly and which paragraphs of our statutory instruments have been changed? We have to put a stop to this; we have to put our foot down. I will read the last paragraph of the letter:

“There was no requirement for Parliament to scrutinise any of this legislation”.

It appears that Parliament was not party to any of this legislation, only Ministers. That is not true. Acts of Parliament and statutory instruments belong to this Parliament as much as they belong to Ministers; they are as much our constitutional property as they are that of Ministers. We need to put our foot down and find ways and means to ensure that this will not happen again. It is now happening to us, as we threatened to do it to National Assembly legislation. Let us put a stop to it, please.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, I wholeheartedly agree with the submissions made by everyone who has spoken on this matter. If I may say so, my heart swelled with pride at the wholly magisterial and superb condemnation of the situation by my noble and learned friend Lord Judge.

This provision has no place in the mores or principles of the 21st century. It is a remnant of a monarchical diktat. Although it does not seem to have been abused by government at all in recent years, but used only for something utterly mechanical, it is still the letter of the law—a law that, I submit, is indefensible. I hope the Minister will not seek to defend the indefensible when he replies.

In Committee, I cited a book written by a former Attorney-General, Sir Gordon Hewart, in the late 1930s, entitled The New Despotism. He was worried about the powers being exercised daily by Ministers in such a way as to circumvent Parliament. He was not dealing with this problem but with positive powers allowing Ministers to make regulations in a wide field. What he would have said of this, I just do not know. It is an anachronism that we must get rid of, because it has no place whatever in the fundamental basis of our parliamentary system in the 21st century.

My name is down to Amendment 68, which covers this situation and goes a little further. It deals not just with the Cardiff Assembly but Westminster. I appreciate there is a distinction between them, as my noble and learned friend pointed out, but I thought it proper to include both for this reason. Most of the legislation that affects Wales and creates devolutionary powers for Wales does not come from Cardiff—it comes from here. For that reason, I should have thought it entirely proper to include it in the condemnation, which should be regarded as utter and absolute, of these Henry VIII powers.

I therefore ask the Minister to say yes. It may well be that there is no abuse of these powers and that no modern Government would dream of abusing them, but that is the letter of the law. It is a dangerous law and one that has no place in our day. Let us get rid of it as soon as possible.

EU: Eurojust (EUC Report)

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Rowlands

Monday 4th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rowlands (Lab)]

My Lords, if only I could improve upon the powerful and compelling case that the noble Baronesses, Lady O’Loan and Lady Corston, and the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, have made on our committee’s report. This time last week, we had a consensus on our report on the EPPO. As I understand it, we have a consensus of a rather different kind tonight: a consensus of two Front Benches opposing our report. I find that all the more puzzling given the events of the past week or two.

As the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, said, since we wrote this report, the context has changed. We have seen a very significant and “important”—in inverted commas—rebellion across a number of European Parliaments to the draft proposal on the EPPO. It was our case that if the Government joined in the debate and discussion on Eurojust, they would find enough allies to change and alter that report effectively. Surely the evidence of the past week or two has been that there are such allies and that if one engaged in an active and proactive way on this measure, one would find enough allies to change or transform the report itself. Our case has been strengthened by the events of the past week or two, and therefore I am puzzled if both Front Benches for some reason oppose the conclusions of our report.

We all accept the value of Eurojust. The Government accept the value of Eurojust. They want to opt back in to Eurojust under the opt-in proposals. We all support that opt-in to the system. I certainly share the Government’s concerns about the existing draft proposal. Almost all those concerns are about the interrelationship between it and the proposed draft for the EPPO. If those fall—if, in fact, the Commission is going to have to withdraw or revise its proposal—surely there will be a consequential fallout in the draft Eurojust proposal. Will the Minister bring us up to date on what has happened since last Monday, when there were enough reasoned opinions across Europe to mean that the Commission will have to review it? What has the Commission intimated? It has suggested that it is going to do so, and it accepts and understands the voices of concern. If it does that, does it not also have to review and almost withdraw this proposal because they are totally interlinked? A portion of the Eurojust draft is related to the proposed public prosecutor’s office. Will the Minister tell us whether, if the Commission has to review the EPPO, it will also probably have to undertake some kind of review of this draft?

In this case, we have a compelling case for joining in the negotiation because we now have a good clear view that we could affect those negotiations in a very positive way. As other members of the committee have said, one of the things that swung me in favour of our report—and I was sceptical at the beginning because I understood and appreciated the Government’s concerns—was that we could influence this because we sensed there would be a lot of other supporters. The other reason why I supported it was that I looked down the road and thought that a bizarre situation could happen in which the Government opt in to the existing measure and then find that this measure has been revised and it belongs to an existing measure which down the road may well be of a different kind, and they have opted out of that. I think that would cause a very puzzling and bizarre situation in the relationship between the United Kingdom and the Eurojust system.

There is one thing on which we surely have consensus: we are in favour of Eurojust and we are in favour of the United Kingdom’s participation in it. Therefore, I beg the Minister to tell us what has happened since last Monday and whether the impact of what happened in the past week or two means that the Government should rethink their position on this issue and should at least keep an open mind on the question of opting in, negotiating and influencing what I think is a very important organisation.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, the matter before the House concerns only Eurojust, but it is clear that Eurojust and the EPPO have a very close nexus one to another. There are two ways of looking at that nexus: one is positive and the other is negative. It seems to me that the Government, and the Opposition for that matter—one is in the luxurious position on the Cross Benches of being able to say, “A mild plague on both your houses”—are approaching the matter from an utterly negative point of view. The Government have asked the question: is Eurojust in any way tainted by association with the EPPO? They answered yes; ergo, it must be rejected.

I argue that there is a forceful and utterly convincing case to the contrary. I am proud to say that I, too, am a member of Sub-Committee E. We have heard a great deal of evidence over the months with regard to European fraud. The official figure for fraud was €440 million or something of that nature. I do not think that anybody applied their minds to it properly, as the evidence was very different, appearing to range somewhere between €3 billion and €5 billion, possibly even in excess of that latter figure. Nobody was charged with overarching responsibility. That is where the case for the EPPO comes in. There is a saying in Welsh: “Everybody’s concern is nobody’s responsibility”. That is the situation here. Unless there is a body that is charged with the particular commission of looking at European fraud in a serious way, as has never happened before, I think that the whole system will be jeopardised to its very roots.

If one accepts that there should be an EPPO—and the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, has pointed out that the objections are sere thin, casuistic and have no merit whatever—it seems to be the case that the Eurojust situation very much fits into that picture. It seems to me that the whole situation is tainted by the prejudices that have become so prevalent in the last few months in relation to Third Pillar matters. We have heard abundant evidence to show that it does not matter a row of beans what we do about 90 to 95 of those 130 measures, as most of them have virtually no effect upon our situation. One or two are of peripheral significance. Yet somehow or other the Government have managed to taint the whole situation by pretending that this is a massive battle for British sovereignty. In doing so, they are jeopardising something like 30 to 35 matters that are of crucial significance in so many different fields, and doing so cynically in order to pretend that we are somehow winning a great victory in relation to the 95 matters that never mattered at all.

I therefore very respectfully ask the Minister, whom I believe to be one of the most reasonable Ministers in government, to consider yet again whether he may be wrong in this particular matter.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Rowlands

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rowlands]

I support this amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, was right to remind us of the situation before S4C was first created. The bitter, divisive nature of the arguments that surrounded Welsh language broadcasting in my days as a Member in the other place were some of the most violent and angry ones that I had ever heard from constituents. They were split right down the middle. It ended up with people taking extreme positions. There were those who did not want to see a single Welsh language programme on either BBC or what was then HTV, and those who wanted to see a lot more and realised that these channels were not going to provide it. The creation of S4C has been an extremely important aspect in developing a consensus around broadcasting in Wales. Even with the best of intentions, we would be very foolish to break that consensus unnecessarily by one means or another. First of all, the consensus was built in establishing S4C, as has been described by my noble and learned friend Lord Morris and by others, and gained enormous cross-party support.

Despite all the problems that S4C has had since, I believe that one of its successes has been to maintain or sustain a degree of consensus around broadcasting and that we have not had the divisiveness that accompanied some of the broadcasting of earlier times. The Government ought to be very careful, in the way that they handle all these issues, that they do not break the consensus and reopen some of the old divisive arguments that were injurious to Welsh broadcasting as a whole. That is the first point that we have to get across to Ministers: that they cannot take a blunderbuss approach to this issue because it is too important that it be maintained. The consensus was created and developed as a result of careful consultation and bringing everybody along together. This has not happened so far in relation to the proposals now being floated.

I hope noble Lords do not mind if I mention, in a personal sense, that I had an opportunity for quite a period to watch closely the affairs of the S4C Authority because my wife was a member for a number of years. I realise what my noble and learned friend Lord Morris has said and what the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, has said about the more recent problems of the S4C Authority. However, I remember, over the whole period of S4C’s establishment, that independent members of the S4C Authority played a crucial role in developing the new provisions and making sure that the channel was trying to reach out to audiences and was not going to be an enclave just for Welsh-speaking communities. My wife and others spent a great deal of time promoting what the authority was about, what the channel was about and what the service was about in communities that were not Welsh-speaking, such as the constituents of Merthyr Tydfil, whom I represented. The consequence of that and, I believe, a factor that was promoted by the independent members of the authority was that people in Merthyr felt that it was just as much their channel as it was in Caernarvon or Ceredigion. That was the success of it. Members of the authority itself played a very important role in achieving that aim and purpose. It had amazing spin-offs, such as the growth of Welsh medium education in communities such as Merthyr. Ysgol Santes Tudful started out with 22 children. My eldest son was a founder member of the school, which now has more than 400 students. S4C’s role in promoting and linking up through its children’s programmes has been a vital part of that development. It is one of the most exciting things that has happened in the Welsh language scene—that in Merthyr we have such vibrant and thriving Welsh medium education arrangements.

All this is part and parcel of a very important situation. My fear is that, in an effort to try this or that solution, if the S4C Authority loses its measure of independence and is seen to be subsumed within the BBC empire in one form or another, that will do harm, not good, to the future of Welsh language broadcasting. I ask the Committee and Ministers to ponder on this: we created a consensus to establish the authority, and a consensus is needed now on essential changes that need to be made, but that consensus has to be worked at. A blunderbuss approach of this kind, trying to promote an order of this kind as a solution, is not the way forward. It is the most inappropriate process by which to develop the change necessary in Welsh language broadcasting. The Minister will not lose any face. He has already made amazing changes to this Bill, and I suggest that this could be one more change that the Government could accept.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

Everybody who has spoken in this debate already and very probably everybody present in the House would probably agree with the proposition that if the Government make a mistake in how they deal with this matter, a death blow could be struck at the very existence of the Welsh language. S4C is a unique body charged with a unique commission to safeguard the very existence of the Welsh language. Well, you may say, that is nothing very much—but I doubt whether many Members of this House would take that view. A living language with a living literature is a jewel in the treasury of human culture, and the Welsh language no more and no less than any other living language is such a jewel. It is 1,500 years old and was in existence at least 500 years before the French language came into being. The French language came into being only at the end of the first millennium; up till then it was a patois of Latin. That shows something of the pedigree of the language that we are talking about.

If anybody thinks that those of us who are Welsh-speaking or committed in some way or another to a loyalty to the Welsh language are overdoing the case, I ask humbly of each and every Member of this House whether, if the English language were in such jeopardy, they would not take up honourably and gallantly exactly the same position. If you thought that the language of Milton, Shakespeare and Chaucer was in jeopardy and that its very life was in doubt, I know exactly what you would do. We are prepared to say exactly the same of the Welsh language.

The next question is about how unique the circumstances were in which S4C was set up. They have already been dealt with in some detail. There was a very ugly situation in Wales; there had been massive civil disobedience, and I have no doubt that Gwynfor Evans would have given up his life. A very wise, statesmanlike Englishman who had great experience of conflicts not dissimilar to these, William Whitelaw, made an agreement with the Welsh people. He said that if they called off their protests he was prepared to give them this channel. That is exactly what happened, to his eternal credit. I think that we should be very careful with this legislation that we do not go back upon the word of that splendid statesman and gentleman.

Indeed it was an agreement. A very great jurist, many centuries ago, spelt out in Latin the principle of agreements: pacta sunt servanda—agreements are binding. This agreement is binding and I would have thought that is the strongest possible case that one could have for not including it in Schedule 4. There are two jeopardies that S4C faces: it could be starved of a sufficiency of funds so as not to allow it to be able to carry out its true purpose; and it could be so boxed in with any form of association with a greater, more powerful body, the BBC, that it would render its independence something utterly unreal.

We have heard regarding finance how a 24 per cent cut might very well reduce S4C to the point when its very existence is placed in jeopardy. I am sure I am not exaggerating the situation. The other side of it is what would happen if it was brought under the aegis of the BBC. I am not entirely sure under what authority the Government have in fact suggested that there should be such a merger—Clause 4 deals entirely with funding; nothing else. Clause 7(1)—I will not go into the detail of it—might touch upon that but I doubt it. Are there any other statutory authorities that allow the Government to do this? I doubt it. Maybe the Government are relying only on the financial pressures brought about—not in relation to S4C alone—by the general economic situation to box S4C into a corner that it would not wish to be in.