Outcome of the EU Referendum

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 27th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, will the noble Baroness give a solemn undertaking—

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Perhaps we can hear from the Cross Benches, then from the Labour, Lib Dem and Conservative Benches.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I am deeply grateful. Will the noble Baroness give an undertaking to the effect that before even contemplating activating the machinery of Article 50, the Government will first of all take into account the solemn voice of the two legislatures, and that failing to do so would be to abrogate and render nugatory the whole concept of parliamentary sovereignty? It is extremely sad and ironic that in the light of the European Union Act 2011 it is necessary for there to be a referendum and a parliamentary resolution before there can be any acquiescence to change. Indeed, it would be very strange that an act so existential as leaving the Union could take place without a parliamentary decision.

Police Reform

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 22nd July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am very happy to take the noble Lord’s advice on that matter. What he had to say was very interesting.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

Does the noble Lord recollect, and indeed agree with, the historic words of the late Lord Callaghan in relation to the police when he said that our police are not a gendarmerie, they are not a corps d’élite, they are citizens in uniform? Does he accept that, although sophisticated systems may well assist the police, the essence of being a police officer is very much encapsulated in the words of James Callaghan? While accepting—indeed, the noble Lord will remember that I raised on many occasions the need for a comprehensive inquiry on the lines of that conducted by Sir Henry Willink in the early 1960s. There were so many problems that coalesced and it was the only way of dealing with them.

It seems to me, respectfully, that the inquiries that are now being considered are indeed wide-ranging and deep-seated. A great deal will depend on the collation of the evidence. I would ask for one matter, which has already been raised by my noble friend, to be considered in addition. We should ask ourselves the question whether, in the 21st century, we can carry on for very much longer with 43 police forces without considering a process of rationalised amalgamation.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That takes us back to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Dear. I think that I explained that the issue appears different from different points of view. I am not sure that a change in size or relocating a responsibility to a regional level or whatever would necessarily lead to more effective policing—in fact, my own prejudice suggests that it would not. However, I agree with the noble Lord’s dictum. It goes back further than Jim Callaghan to Peel himself, who said that the people are the police and the police should be the people. That is the concept that lies behind the British police force, which certainly differs from police forces in other parts of the world.

Communications Data and Interception

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Thursday 10th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Had that been possible, it might have been done. Clearly, the Bill is a complicated piece of legislation and getting it right has not been easy. I think the noble Lord will understand the background against which the Bill will be presented to the House of Commons and to your Lordships’ House. In such circumstances, it was important that the Government got their own position right first. Having done that, we are very grateful for the scrutiny and advice that we will receive from the Intelligence and Security Committee.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, I wholeheartedly support what has been said concerning the inhibition which now exists on the use of vital evidence by way of intercept, which makes it impossible for what would have otherwise been crucially important prosecutions to succeed. I well appreciate that there are two sides to the argument and I appreciate that final advice to Parliament on this matter is still awaited, but will the noble Lord accept that in many common-law countries the rule is different? It is left to the good sense of the prosecution whether to rely on such evidence, bearing very much in mind the sensitivity of the situation in the public interest. It does not seem beyond the bounds of possibility that the United Kingdom is coming under very severe pressure from very powerful allies in this particular matter, to her own detriment.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I do not want to go into detail today on the noble Lord’s points. However, I will examine what he said, because he is talking about procedures rather than the matter that the Bill deals with—how we handle this in legal process. If the noble Lord will allow me, I will write to him in response to his question. I am grateful to him for raising it.

Student Visas

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 24th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am not an arrogant sort of person, as my noble friend will know, and I think that there are lessons for the Government to learn from this situation. It is right that we should seek to learn these lessons. I agree with her that many of the individuals involved may well have been perfectly innocent of the circumstances in which they now find themselves, of being illegally in this country, having applied through one of these bogus entry systems, which contain in them a germ of criminality, as I said earlier. How that aspect is dealt with will be a matter for the courts to decide. Meanwhile, as I say, I am quite prepared to accept that there are things that the Government can learn from this experience, and there is a need to ensure that we play our part in supporting universities in their job.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister very properly makes the point that the vast majority of foreign students are perfectly genuine entrants into the United Kingdom. However, there are two issues, one of which is the bogus student. I applaud the Government for their action, but I hope that they do not send an unfortunate message, which they do not intend to send, with regard to the general welcome of students into the United Kingdom.

The other issue is that of the genuine student in relation to the classification of immigration. As I see it, the situation is this: over the past two years, the Prime Minister has said very clearly that he wishes to see annual immigration reduced to a figure below 100,000. I think that is a fair estimate of what he said. At the same time, it has been said time and time again in both Houses of Parliament that genuine students are nevertheless to be regarded as immigrants. That is the classical and historic way in which they have been regarded, and I believe they were regarded in that way by the previous Government. In light of the fact that the number of genuine students whose genuineness is not in any way in dispute is in excess of 100,000 per annum, how can the two objectives ever be served—in other words, keeping immigration below 100,000 and at the same time welcoming every genuine non-EU student? At the moment there is a dichotomy. What do the Government intend to do about it?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think that I have made our policy clear—namely, to encourage genuine students to this country. I do not see any fundamental difficulty with that, and I am not in favour of moving the goalposts on this issue. The Government have their objective of reducing net migration. The noble Lord suggests that that might be in conflict with a policy which encourages genuine students to come here. I do not believe that the two are incompatible. I think that it is possible to achieve both and it is certainly the Government’s aim and ambition to do that. However, to do that, we need the co-operation of the university and college sector. No gathering of individuals contains more people associated with universities and colleges than perhaps this House. I appeal to everyone who is involved in university courts, is a vice-chancellor or is involved in any way whatever to emphasise the Government’s determination to maintain the importance of the sector but also to emphasise to those involved in university administration the importance of applying their mind to the consequences of illegal immigration to this country and of playing their part in seeking to eliminate it.

Police and Crime Commissioners

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 11th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister has made the point that the test may well come when police and crime commissioners are up for election. Does he accept that an ironic situation could arise where commissioners will be asked to justify undertakings that they have given and which have not been fulfilled, and say, “It is not my fault but the fault of the chief constable”, and the damage that that could do to the system? Can the Minister tell the House the number of chief officers of police who have been dismissed since the system came into force, and in what other circumstances the Inspectorate of Constabulary has been involved?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, the noble Lord is wrong to assume that those will be the terms under which the election of the successor PCCs will take place. I foresee a considerable interest in PCCs in May 2016; there will be a great deal of public interest in making sure that the people elected to these important posts are in fact the people whom they believe will represent them. As to the figures, I shall be happy to write to the noble Lord but I cannot give them to him at the moment.

Alexander Litvinenko

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 24th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, the noble Lord is being rather uncharacteristically churlish about the Answer I gave. These are complex and sensitive issues, as I hope noble Lords will appreciate, and it is right that the Home Secretary gives proper consideration to whether or not to hold an inquiry. That is her right and we should support her in that.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister recollect that on 11 February this year Lord Justice Richards, in giving the judgment of a unanimous and strong Court of Appeal, examined in detail each and every one of the six reasons given in the decision letter by the Home Secretary and rejected each and every one of them absolutely? He crystallised the situation with this sentence:

“If she is to maintain her refusal she will need better reasons than those given in the decision letter, so as to provide a rational basis for her decision”.

Does the Minister accept that failure to allow this matter to be properly examined under the Inquiries Act 2005 would not only be a denial of the justice that the assassinated Litvinenko deserves but a breach of the commitment that the United Kingdom has shown so honourably over the years to the rule of law?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, the Government have sought justice in this case ever since Mr Litvinenko died in 2006. That remains the position. This crime took place in this country and involved a British citizen. We want to see those whose arrests were sought by the Crown Prosecution Service—Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitry Kovtun—brought to and put on trial in the UK. Meanwhile, the noble Lord has emphasised why it is important that the Home Secretary gives proper consideration to the need for an inquiry.

EU Police and Criminal Justice Measures: EUC Reports

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Thursday 23rd January 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con)]

My Lords, before I tackle the issues raised in this debate I extend my thanks to the European Union Committee of this House for its ongoing work in this matter. This Government are extremely grateful to the committee; we do not necessarily agree but we are grateful for the work that is being done. I join the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, in the comments that she made about its work. The committee informs this House and the Government, and I am aware of the diligence with which it undertakes its work. We are aware of the role that Parliament has in scrutinising these matters and it should do so informed by the work of its committees, so I pay a genuine tribute to them all.

The committee’s initial report was helpful in informing the Government’s decision about the measures that we are seeking to rejoin, and I found its follow-up report to be particularly thought-provoking. Taken together, and it has been useful to be able to do that today, these two reports represent an extremely thorough analysis of a complex issue. The committee has produced a formidable body of work for the Government to consider.

On 23 July, I set out to the House my openness to debating the committee’s report. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, for making that possible by calling this debate today. I also thank him for his excellent work and insight into this matter as chairman of the sub-committee. The Government are appreciative of the committee’s continued scrutiny of these important matters and I thank the noble Lords, Lord Boswell and Lord Bowness, neither of whom are in their place today, and the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, for their chairmanship of the committees. These are sincere thanks, in which I join with the tribute paid to their work by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd.

I hope that noble Lords will accept that some of the questions I have been asked are complex and difficult. I do not want to mislead the House in any of my responses and with the consent of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, I intend to write to him and to copy in all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, and place a copy of that in the Library. This will enable me to deal with those matters which I am not necessarily able to deal with today. I hope that noble Lords will appreciate that type of commentary, which we have had before when discussing these issues.

Scrutiny can be an iterative and long-running process, especially on a matter such as this. Some have argued that the Government have not made the case for exercising the opt-out. On that point, I think we have to agree to disagree. The case for exercising the opt-out has been clearly set out and, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, set out in his opening speech, the House has already endorsed the Government’s decision. The House has also endorsed the Government’s decision to seek to rejoin the 35 measures set out in Command Paper 8671. I am pleased that the committee is persuaded by the evidence that the Government have set out to Parliament. I am also pleased that the committee has reopened its inquiry. Its views on the measures that we are not seeking to rejoin are welcomed and the Government have responded in full on those issues.

Before I turn to the points raised during the debate, I reiterate the Government’s commitment to holding another vote on the final package of measures that we will apply to rejoin.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

Does the noble Lord, for whom I and everyone here have an immense respect, agree that the whole issue can be distilled into a single question: how is it sane and sensible and sincere for the Government to place in jeopardy 35 measures of considerable worth in the expectation of, at best, a minuscule advantage in respect of 95 other matters that are either wholly irrelevant, non-operative or in no way injurious to our interests? I respectfully suggest that that is the issue.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

As the noble Lord knows, the Government are exercising an opt-out that was provided for by negotiations by a previous Government. Noble Lords will expect the Government to exercise their discretion in this matter and to seek the endorsement of Parliament, as they have done on this occasion. I make no apology to the noble Lord for the decision that this Government have made. It was a decision that was anticipated by the previous Government in their negotiations.

As I was saying, before I return to the points raised, I confirm that there will be another vote on the package of measures that we will apply to rejoin. It is important that Parliament is given the opportunity to scrutinise this matter fully. I am very happy to commit myself to replying for the Government during that debate later this year.

I start by responding to some of the points of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, in his excellent speech. I could not agree with all that he was saying about the Government’s performance or decision-making or role, but he set out a number of important points that have helped to guide this debate and I am happy to reply to them.

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and my noble friend Lord Sharkey addressed the point of whether there are measures that are detrimental to the UK and the UK’s national interest. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, asked if this were the case. That is one way to assess these measures. However, is not the way in which the Government have assessed them. The Government have looked at how each measure contributes to public safety and security, whether practical co-operation is underpinned by the measure and whether there would be detrimental impact on such co-operation if pursued by other mechanisms. We have considered the impact that the measure has on civil rights and liberties. We believe that the 35 measures that we are seeking to rejoin meet these criteria.

The noble Lord and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, asked why the Government have opted in to post-Lisbon measures if we have concerns about European Court of Justice jurisdiction. The Government consider that there is always a risk attached in terms of European Court of Justice jurisdiction. All Governments have faced this when we decide to participate in measures—pre-Lisbon or post-Lisbon. However, in certain cases, it will be in the national interest for the UK to participate in these measures, and the Government will accept that risk, given the wider benefits of the instruments in question.

Undercover Policing

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 24th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

There is no tolerance of racial discrimination in this country. It is one of the features that have changed since those times. The Home Secretary became aware of these allegations only on Thursday last week. No Home Secretary that I know of has been aware of these allegations. We know that the noble Lord, Lord Condon, who is not in his place today but who was commissioner at the time, has widely condemned these allegations and had no knowledge of them, as he says in a statement which he issued earlier today.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I most warmly congratulate the Minister on the sincerity and sensitivity with which he has approached these grave allegations. The question has been raised as to exactly how boundaries should be drawn. I respectfully suggest that this House, sitting in its appellate capacity in the Loosely case 13 years ago, laid down very specific and intricate rules. If those can be made a living law—exactly how that is to be done I am not sure—the problem, to a large extent, would be answered.

On the Lawrence question, it is perfectly clear to the House that a small, select, covert and confidential cell was set up to do a very specific job—to besmirch the Lawrence case. That decision could not have been a haphazard one. It must have been arrived at at a fairly senior level of management. The British public will want to know who that person was. Anything short of that would leave a huge gap in credibility.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

Saying that gives me no pleasure, as someone who was Police Minister in the other place 45 years ago and thinks that we still have a most splendid police force, with few exceptions.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

What the noble Lord says is quite clearly the nub of the issue. That is what the investigation of these allegations is designed to discover. It is not going to be easy. This was quite some time ago and many of those involved have passed on. It will not be easy to get to the truth. The paper trail and the documents may not exist—we do not know. However, I believe that the public demand this sort of scrutiny and transparency and it is right that they do so. We need to pursue the allegations with vigour because we need to show that this cannot be tolerated in retrospect and it certainly cannot be tolerated today.

Sexual Offences: Investigation and Prosecution

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 21st May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble and learned Lord makes a very powerful case for working together across government. I think that noble Lords will know that bodies are already in place and that we already have a very considerable focus on child protection in this country. However, there has been a failure, and a failure to recognise the reality that many of these young people have experienced. That has been exposed in recent court cases. The Government are determined that the system should work. The system needs to work to protect these very vulnerable children.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that since it would appear that in only a minority of these cases—a small minority—is there a direct victim complaint, no real progress can be made until the law enforcement agencies are prepared to adopt more robust tactics, including infiltration and surveillance? Otherwise, we will only be dusting over this disgraceful practice.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think that all agencies are now very much on the alert. However, we are in effect looking back and trying to recover a situation that should never have got to this point. The intention of government should be to ensure that this does not happen again. Anyone whose job involves the protection of children should be alert to this fact. That includes local authorities, the police and those who are responsible for care homes, health agencies, schools, the probation service and housing. All these elements must come together. We have a statutory body—the local safeguarding children boards—in every local authority in this country. What are they doing if not seeking to protect the young children who are their responsibility? The Government are very alert to this and I hope that I am reassuring the House that we are determined that the system should protect the very people it was designed for.

Police: Convicted Officers

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I understand the noble Lord’s concern, particularly as it is based on those figures, but in fact those figures are not accurate. I have been able to obtain some accurate figures. In 2005, a total of 46 officers were serving in the MPS who had a criminal conviction. That went down to 25 in 2010, and in 2012 there was a further decline to a total of 15 officers serving with the MPS with a criminal conviction. Of these 15 officers, the majority of convictions, 10 of them, were for traffic offences including excess alcohol.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I kindly put it to the Minister that 45 years ago, as I know for a fact, the police regulations covered all manner of conduct, positive and negative, in relation to police officers. Is there now an equivalent covenant which relates to all police officers in England and Wales, and, if so, does it refer to criminal offences?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The Police (Conduct) Regulations 2012 set out the standards that all police officers are expected to maintain. The standard on discreditable conduct, for example, states that police officers behave in a manner that does not discredit the police or undermine public confidence in them, whether on or off duty, and that police officers report any action taken against them for a criminal offence, any conditions imposed on them by a court, or the receipt of any penalty notice.

Alcohol: Minimum Pricing

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That is why this proposal was originally put forward. That is the premise under which we operate, but it is not the total answer. I think the noble Lord would admit that there are other elements besides price, such as availability. As the noble Lord will know, we face a much more liberal licensing regime as a result of the previous Government’s determination to extend licensing hours, so availability is another factor. But he is right to point to behaviour, because there are huge differences between those of us who live in Nordic countries, where alcohol consumption per capita is very high, and those who live in Mediterranean countries and the like, where there seems to be better self-ordered restraint on the consumption of alcohol.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, while accepting that it is utterly laudable that any Government should pay very great attention to the possibility of curbing alcohol abuse by pricing, I urge upon the Minister an alternative consideration as well. As the Minister will remember, the current Licensing Act has a provision—I think in Section 157, but I could be wrong—to punish publicans for serving alcohol to persons who have already had too much to drink. Will the Government concentrate very much on this aspect as well? If proper sanctions are fully and practically applied, this could be a very powerful weapon against alcoholism.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Indeed, the discipline that needs to be shown by those who retail alcohol, whether in shops, supermarkets or bars, is a very important part of the solution to this problem. We know that local authorities are taking the issue of underage drinking much more seriously than has been the case. The responsibility must lie with the person selling the alcohol to make sure that it is not made available to people who clearly have had enough.

Citizenship Test

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 26th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, does the handbook contain any reference to the invasion of these islands by the Anglo-Saxons?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am sure that it does.

Police Integrity

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 12th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

It is of course very important to keep oneself well informed, even if it is just to inform one of where people are going wrong. This issue is a very serious one. I do not think there is any dispute about the fact that crime figures are falling. There are matters of definition, which I think it is going to be in everyone’s interests to get tidied up, but the allegation that these figures are being manipulated is a very serious one. Unfortunately, I cannot attend the meeting which the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, who is not in his place at the moment, has called for this evening. I would like to have gone to it but I am on duty in the Chamber. However, I have asked an official to attend because it is very important that the Home Office follows these arguments and listens to what is being said.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, as one who was privileged, 45 years ago, to be Police Minister in the other place, I suggest that the situation which now obtains in relation to the police is not all that dissimilar to that which existed in the early 1960s. The Government of the day, a Conservative Government, set up the royal commission under Sir Henry Willink because they were convinced that only an inquiry that was wholly independent of government could have the chance of replacing the police in that position of trust and distinction which they had traditionally occupied in the community. I respectfully ask the Minister to consider deeply whether that precedent should not now be followed in the circumstances prevailing.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I cannot accept the noble Lord’s suggestion that there is equivalence between the two situations, but I am certain that the restoration of good practice within communities is a very local matter. That is why the focus of the Statement is on the engagement of individual forces and the maintenance of professional standards throughout the police force from top to bottom. I hope the noble Lord will understand that I am not prepared to go quite as far as he would suggest.

Police and Crime Commissioners

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Thursday 13th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I should make it clear that the facility for the role of the deputy police and crime commissioner is written into the arrangements, but it is not mandatory. It is indeed not politically restricted and it is designed to assist the PCC in his role. The actual administration of the PCC’s office will be in the control of a finance officer and a head of paid staff. The head of paid staff serves as the monitoring officer. I know the circumstances to which the noble Lord has alluded, but as I have said before, the decisions made by PCCs will be judged by the electorate at the next elections.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that many of the independents who were elected had held high rank as serving police officers? Will he confirm that they will abjure any temptation to outguess a chief constable insofar as operational matters are concerned?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Yes, I think that I have made it absolutely clear. There is a protocol that sets down all these matters and I have no doubt that chief constables themselves will make sure that they keep their part of the bargain, as indeed will PCCs.

Police and Crime Commissioners: Elections

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 4th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Two questions were being asked at the same time, but I shall take that of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport. I do not accept that for one moment. By-elections were held the same day and, in one case, the retiring Member of Parliament received very much the same turnout as the winning candidate in the seat that he had vacated. That does not affect the legitimacy of the outcome, nor will it affect the authority with which police and crime commissioners will tackle their task, with a mandate on behalf of the people to make sure that we have effective crime policies in this country.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, does the Minister recollect that when taxed with the question of the low turnout both the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary said that it was easily foreseeable that in a situation as novel as this the turnout would be low. Why, then, was no free mail shot considered? I ask him to answer this question with the sweet benefit of hindsight, but is it the case that perhaps the wrong question was asked? Rather than ask whether we could possibly afford it, perhaps we should have asked whether we could possibly afford not to do it.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

As the noble Lord will know, because I know that he has been interested in this subject and I have talked to him in Questions before about informing voters on this issue, more than 2 million people took advantage of access to the website to inform themselves about their candidates, and more than 200,000 people asked for a printed version of the candidates’ election address on the website and took advantage of that opportunity. There is no free post, and I do not think that the £30 million that postage would have cost would have been justified.

Police and Crime Commissioner Elections (Welsh Forms) Order 2012

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 29th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Well, I thank the noble Lord for that support. This has been a stimulating and useful debate. It has given me the opportunity to inform the House and to some degree clear the air on some of the issues that have been raised, and I know they have been raised with some considerable passion.

As we know—and with this being a shared objective of all noble Lords who have spoken—the order will ensure that voters in Wales will have the opportunity to mark their vote bilingually. The House’s support of this measure means that it can be done in Welsh and English and both languages will have full parity.

Noble Lords can be assured that throughout this process the Government have consulted with the Electoral Commission and returning officers. As noble Lords will know, these are independent officers acting within local authorities, running the election, in developing the design of the ballot papers and the mechanics of delivering a Welsh and English bilingual ballot paper for the electors in Wales.

I should make it clear to the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, who I think had expected to find a Welsh Minister here today, that no criticism should be made of the Wales Office; the Home Office is the responsible organisation. As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, made quite clear, the Home Office is responsible for conducting this election. The focus of the issue should be directed to the Home Office. It is indeed the Home Office’s intention to ensure that we have a long-term way of dealing with the Welsh language element of elections. As noble Lords will know, currently this requires a separate order from the general secondary legislation that is required to bring about publication of other forms.

The Law Commission is investigating the whole question of elections. Although it will take some time for the Law Commission to report, it is the Government’s intention to respond to that. It may well be that in future it will not be necessary to keep coming back for each election. I remind noble Lords that for the previous general election, the Government had to bring in a special order in April for the May 2010 election for exactly this issue: to produce a bilingual ballot paper. The process is complex, to the extent that we need to ensure that we have the form of the election material right in the English language before we seek to translate it into a Welsh or bilingual format. This has been a more convoluted process than noble Lords might at first think.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

Is there any good reason why translation from English into Welsh should not be the exclusive purview of the Welsh Assembly? That would avoid all these complications, would it not?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That will have to be for future legislators to consider. It is certainly not possible under current law. As I have explained, the responsibility lies with the Home Office to deliver these elections in England and Wales. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, showed a great deal of understanding about the complexity of statutes under which Welsh language elements of elections have to be conducted. He mentioned the two statutes and the complexity of the issue. I thank him for his understanding of that matter.

A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Rosser, mentioned the cost of £350,000. That is within the £75 million budget, and it will not cost any additional money nor extend the budget for these elections. It is within the contingencies that noble Lords have mentioned.

We take the Welsh language very seriously. I am an English-speaking Englishman who has to receive any part of the Welsh language culture second-hand. However, I appreciate it enormously. It enhances all our lives that we have a second living language spoken in these islands. It is greatly to our advantage and is one of the reasons why we support, in any way that we can, opportunities for Welsh speakers to express themselves in their Welsh language. Indeed, as I said, they can take the oath in Welsh if they wish on achieving office.

Police and Crime Commissioners: Elections

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Thursday 11th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank my noble friend and predecessor in this post for making that point. The noble Baroness will be aware that future elections will be in May, when we hope that the weather will be so much more pleasant. Meanwhile, the Government and Parliament decided that they wanted these elections as soon as possible, which is why we are having them on 15 November.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, the Question on the Order Paper asks how many people are likely to vote. Does the Minister not agree that perhaps a more pertinent, or even impertinent, question might be how many people should vote, bearing in mind that this ill conceived piece of legislation creates a situation in which a lay commissioner is there to interfere with the hierarchy of a disciplined service that has served this community magnificently well for a century and three quarters?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I respect the noble Lord’s point of view, but I am afraid that he has got it wrong. Police and crime commissioners are not there to interfere with the operational responsibilities of the police force. As for turnout, we do not have compulsory voting in this country; what we do have is the opportunity for people to go and exercise their vote. I am very confident indeed that there will be a good vote on 15 November.

Charity Commission: Bogus Charities

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 4th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I hope the noble Lord will accept that in the first supplementary answer I gave I said that I totally agree with that view. It is the voluntary impulse that makes charitable giving and charitable activity so important and useful. On the other hand, in asking the Question in the first place, my noble friend pointed out that Governments do have to be aware that there are people who will use charities for malicious ends, so we in Government have to be on our toes to avoid that happening.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

Does the Minister recollect that our late colleague Lord Pilkington was in possession of clear documentation showing that on many occasions the Charity Commission had been offered confidential information by intelligence agencies on both sides of the Atlantic but did not feel able to avail itself of that advantage on account of the conditions under which such information would be released? Is the Minister aware of that, and is he able to comment on the situation, albeit, of course, in general terms?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, my response will have to be in general terms. I am well aware that the Charity Commission receives quite a lot of information, and the pursuit of validating that information takes up quite a lot of the commission’s time. It is right and proper that any allegations are investigated, and I am sure that that is exactly what happens.

West Lothian Question

Debate between Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Thursday 28th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The commission would certainly have to bear that in mind, just as it is likely to want to bear in mind any reformed nature of this House following legislation which might be introduced to that effect.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, is it not the case that, under the parliamentary boundaries legislation, Wales has suffered the most savage surgery, losing 25 per cent of its parliamentary seats? Was that not in clear breach of an Act of Parliament of 1986 which guaranteed a minimum of 35 seats for Wales and a solemn undertaking given by the right honourable Kenneth Clarke in 1992?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I do not want to go over the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill again, because noble Lords spent a long time on that issue. That legislation makes representation equal across the United Kingdom, which is a fair basis on which to start any consideration of devolution and funding of devolved authorities.