Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Empey and Baroness Coffey

Committee stage
Friday 30th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Harper and Lord Empey, for signing this amendment. I will also speak to my Amendment 65 and consider an amendment put forward by the shadow Front Bench.

It is disappointing that the Justice Minister is not in her place on the Front Bench today, because in discussing these amendments I want to consider the important issue of assessing whether someone has capacity. The MoJ is responsible for that, and for several of the other matters I wish to speak on. We are only at Clause 1(3), but this is a key element to consider carefully: where do all these issues have to happen, and do they have to happen face to face?

As the Bill reads currently, it suggests that only the initial request for assistance, the first declaration, the doctor’s assessment and the second doctor’s assessment, and then the second declaration, have to happen while the person making all these requests is in the country. No other part of the Bill, including preliminary discussions and the act itself—all these other things—has to happen in this country; the person does not have to be here.

I think I have made it clear in a series of amendments that I have brought to the Committee that my concern is how this becomes something that is decided not just on paper. There should be real interaction, and I am trying to understand how the Bill will work in practice. That is why I have asked a series of questions on whether or not the terminally ill person making the request has to be in the country. We should get into other aspects, such as whether the panel has to be here.

We had a debate earlier in Committee, during which I made a clumsy attempt to make sure people had to be in this country. As I said, you can be ordinarily resident in more than one country at the same time. I want to continue to focus on this being a person-based process—I do not like using the term “patient-based process”, as I do not consider this to be a health treatment—and a lot of that is about where somebody is and whether there is a face-to-face link.

Recently, in a different policy, the Government rightly want to accelerate and increase substantially the number of face-to-face assessments for consideration of eligibility for sickness benefits. A lot of that was changed during Covid because, frankly, it was not practical to undertake that process. It has been gradually brought back and needs to be accelerated. The thinking alongside that policy is critical to the application of this Bill.

I have interpreted Clause 1(3)(b) as meaning that only

“steps under sections 10 and 11”

have to be done by persons in England and Wales, and that is the initial assessment. I put it to the Committee that a lot more of this should be done face to face. As the late James Munby pointed out, it is absolutely right that the panel should be considering this process and looking into this. I am conscious there will be medics here who have perhaps an even greater understanding than I of how the variety of assessments should be done face to face. What happens when people are making a declaration? Are we sure that somebody is not in the room, giving them the eyes so that they will give the right answers? How are we to understand whether coercion can happen or not?

In a documentary undertaken by ITV, the Bill’s promoter, Kim Leadbeater, expressed concerns about what happens in Oregon, where a lot of this is done by video link. I believe she was uncomfortable and would consider adding an amendment to make it clear that consultations with doctors could not be done by video call and should be done in person. That has not been done so far, and no explanation has been given. That is why I have tabled these amendments. They would be a very important way of making sure there are safeguards so that, as we go through this novel process to us— I appreciate it is not novel to the world—we have every confidence that a lot of the safeguards which people are concerned about are going to be appropriately applied.

Last week, a discussion on a group brought forward by the noble Lord, Lord Birt, gave us a picture of how this could look. Indeed, the amendments tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, have started to touch on aspects of this, such as how a commission can happen. But I can see that, very quickly, especially bearing in mind some of the amendments last week—though I appreciate that the noble and learned Lord did not accept them—a panel could be meeting every day. Right now, it could involve somebody on holiday in Tenerife and somebody else elsewhere meeting on Zoom or Teams or whatever. That could quickly become a routine tick-box exercise. That is the very reason the late Sir James Munby pointed out that this should not be given to judges—what is the point of having a judge if it will be just a tick-box exercise? We need to be careful that we do not end up in that situation.

In Amendment 65, I have suggested specifically what needs to be done face to face: the preliminary discussion, the request—as is in the Bill—and the witness. The witness should be there and it should be face to face. That seems sensible. We have the first and second assessment already there, but I think we could go further. What about the interaction with the independent advocate? Is that going to be done down the phone? These are the serious things which we need to consider. Should the panel meet face to face with the person applying? I appreciate that, in Amendment 320A, the assumption is that it should be face to face, but perhaps with exceptions by a video link. Again, when I initially started observing this at the other end, I thought that this would happen. What seems to have evolved is that a lot of this will be done remotely. The only thing I have not included in Amendment 65 is the actual doctor being there and the assessment happening in this country—although that is not specified in the Bill. Clause 25(3) says that the co-ordinating doctor has to be there in person, although under the following clause that can all be delegated to somebody else.

I do not want to overly labour the point in consideration, but I hope noble Lords will give some thought to how they want to see the Bill work in practice. It may be that people are happy for this all to happen via video and are wondering why we are getting in the way, given that this is about autonomy. However, these would be sensible amendments to consider to make sure that, while no Minister yet has said this is a safe Bill, it is as safe as possible. We need to look at the operation of it. It is certainly the case in other parts of the health system that a lot of this would not be acceptable and would have to be done face to face. It is not a case of overengineering the Bill or leaving it to regulations. We should be clear in Parliament that this is what we are going to do.

I am conscious of Amendment 320A, and I appreciate that my noble friend Lord Evans of Rainow, in Amendment 376, has particularly singled out “in person” for parts of Clause 12. I get that some people may be so terminally ill that perhaps a video link might be used, but that should be exceptional, if we are going to go down that route at all. I look forward to hearing my noble friend explain why that is the case and how it can be administered. With that, I beg to move.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I have put my name to some of these amendments. In the spirit of what the Chief Whip said, I will not repeat what the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, said, but I gently remind the Committee that this Private Member’s Bill is not normal, in so far as most Private Member’s Bills are five, six, seven or eight pages. This one is 51 pages, with 59 clauses. It is a very different animal from what we are used to.

I think the amendments in this group have been tabled because, in many respects, this aspect of the process is deeply disturbing. We are talking about life and death here; we are talking about making assessments of a person who is making an application for an assisted death. Noble Lords will be aware that, on 29 October, in the Select Committee, Professor Martin J Vernon, chair of the British Geriatrics Society’s ethics and law special interest group, said:

“Assessing somebody remotely, digitally, without a face-to-face assessment, particularly if they have complex health and social care needs, is nigh-on impossible”.


I would have thought that, to assess somebody’s state of mind and to have any sense of judging whether they are being coerced or not, one of the most obvious things is to see them in front of you and get the feel for that. How can a psychiatrist judge this?

The other point I would make is about the practicalities. Depending on where someone is in this country, they may or may not have the equipment or the capacity to use it; signals drop off. Inevitably, if somebody is in a frail and unstable condition, there will have to be other people present to operate this. Does that mean that a team from the hospital would have to go out to some remote location—or, even worse, are we doing stuff on the phone? Can you imagine how people would react? “Dial-a-death” would be the sort of way that people would describe it.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Empey and Baroness Coffey

Committee stage
Friday 23rd January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

On the point the noble Baroness made about funding, unfortunately the Minister has now communicated that it will not happen until autumn 2026, which any former Minister knows means 24 December.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I wonder whether the proposer of these amendments, the noble Lord, Lord Birt, can tell us whether he has any indication from the relevant royal colleges that their members would be available for this service. The idea is that you will have senior clinicians on a 24-hour basis, 365 days per year. I wish our facilities had sufficient capacity, but it is nonsense; there is not the remotest possibility of the National Health Service and the relevant clinicians being available.

If I am wrong, and the noble Lord, Lord Birt, has an indication from them that their members will be available, the sooner we get that information here the better—but I just cannot see it. We cannot even deal with what we have at the moment, never mind adding to the burden.

On another issue, I must say to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, that it is 12.10 pm. By the time we finish this group, we will be at the lunch break. I have to say to him, as I said last week, that if we go on at the rate we are going, he is partly responsible. He needs to bring forward meaningful amendments, so that we can see the colour of his money now and not in weeks to come.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Empey and Baroness Coffey

Committee stage
Friday 9th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

Yes, I will. I am just saying that it is really important that we get statistics, and that this becomes the premise of the Lord Chancellor. This will be critical to making sure that we have confidence going forward and I will have to work out a way to reassess these amendments in future groups.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I am indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, for bringing to a head one of the critical issues in this legislation. As one of the diminishing number of people in this House who is not a lawyer, I say that we have to find our way through this labyrinthine structure where we have chambers and all sorts of things. Without legal experience, it is difficult even as a legislator to navigate through this.

The point I want to make at the outset is that this significant piece of legislation started off in the other place with the legal process as a fundamental part of the architecture. That was subsequently changed more than half way through its process in the other place, and now we are trying to re-inject it into the system. I would ask the sponsor and indeed the Minister to respond to this. There are so many issues that have been raised already this morning about the consequences of making this change, for which we have absolutely no information whatever.

I remind colleagues that, on our last Friday, there were five separate issues—I repeat, five—to which no response or answer was provided. They were: the issue between England and Wales, the issue between England and Scotland, the issue of pregnant women, the issue of homeless people, and the issue of prisoners. There is no clarity on any of that.

The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and his co-signatories are attempting in these amendments to at least make the legislation, as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said, less unsafe. The stage we are at in this legislation is probably 75% or 80% of the way through the process and, as with a Meccano set, we are still bolting bits on and taking bits off.

All of this could have been avoided if we had had the proper process of a Royal Commission and a government Bill. This is Heath Robinson-type legislation on such a serious issue. I have to say to the sponsors that, instead of battling this out for the next few months, they would be far better to go to the Government and ask them to appoint a commission and get on with it. Then we would not have to fight our way through this morass.

Not being a legal person myself, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Carlile—given the pressures that we understand are applied to the courts and the Family Division—whether there is a case for the creation of a special chamber for people who are dedicated to this, with the training that would be required. Or, with the pressures that the family court is under, could it be that comparatively junior people end up being designated to hear these cases? Because you are talking about a huge gap in knowledge and experience on a life and death issue.

Maybe these questions cannot be answered now—maybe we will get answers when we come to Report—but the fact is that we are having to ask all these questions and we have no information, no numbers and nothing in front of us. I do not believe that that is a coherent and sensible way to go forward.

The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, made a very valid point about the general public’s confidence in who makes such decisions. While I can see the merits, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, pointed out, of having a panel with different disciplines, the fact of the matter is that persons who are on that panel have to be appointed by somebody. Is there confidence in the people who appoint them? The court system, however, has a level of public confidence miles above any alternative.

All of these things need to be sorted out. They should have been sorted out before we had this debate today and they have not been. That is where we are. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, is attempting to put a foundation under this legislation. Leaving issues of principle out of it for the moment—we are legislators and sometimes we have to do things that we do not want to do personally—we are obliged to undertake this process. I assume that he is trying to put a foundation underneath this legislation that would command confidence among the general public, or at least a higher level of confidence than, I suspect, the panel process has. The fact that we have had this change and this flip-flop is very concerning.

I conclude by asking the noble Lord, and indeed, necessarily, the Minister: if these amendments were to be accepted by the sponsor, what would be the Government’s response? The noble Lords, Lord Harper and Lord Gove, have raised this, as have others. I understand that Ministers are in a difficult position. They are technically dealing with a Private Member’s Bill, whatever some of us think about that. Without having knowledge of what the state is going to do, we are legislating for the state to intervene to allow a person to end their life, which is against other legislation that we have already passed. So it is important that the Government should let us know what their responses will be in these various scenarios and I do hope that, when we come to the wind-up of this debate, we will get some clarity.