Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Falconer of Thoroton and Baroness Berridge

Committee stage
Friday 30th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, for raising artificial intelligence. There was, broadly, a consensus around the Committee, which the noble Baroness supported, that the amendment is much too blunt, but as she said, fairly, it gives us an opportunity to talk about AI. I will also pick up the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford’s contribution; he rightly said, as has been echoed around the Committee, that there have been huge benefits for patients from AI.

I think four concerns were raised during the debate. The first was: will AI affect decision-making? I think the underlying point there is that we do not want machines to make the decisions that are referred to in the Bill; we want human beings to make them. In particular, the decisions I have in mind are the decision of the first doctor, the decision of the second doctor, the decision of the panel, and the decision of the doctor, at the point that the assistance is being given, that the conditions are still satisfied. Everybody around the Chamber wants that to be decided by a doctor or a panel, depending on which it is, and I completely and unreservedly endorse and accept that.

Does that need to be made even clearer in the Bill? I will consider it, but I do not think that it does. The acid test for me is that if you fail to comply with your obligations as a doctor or as a panel, you can go to prison for up to five years. It is very difficult to imagine how you could put a machine in prison, so it is pretty clear that these decisions must be made by a human being. For my part and for everybody who supports the Bill, that must remain the position.

The second concern is advertising, which the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, referred to. She is absolutely right. I have made it clear that I will bring forward amendments. Those amendments, which are almost finally drafted, make provision specifically in relation to digital advertising—they do not specifically refer to AI, but we need to address that in the advertising provision. I will lay those amendments so that the House can consider them.

The third concern is slightly generalised, which is that AI is very persuasive, particularly in persuading people to do things that they do not necessarily want to do. The first thing on that is that there is a wider societal requirement to address the pervasive impacts of AI in a whole range of things. We should all try to contribute to that. More focused on this is the question of the safeguards in the Bill, because they then become incredibly important. In particular, the safeguards require that there is doctor-to-patient discussion in relation to the decision for that patient, and they are specifically required in the preliminary conversation, the first conversation and the second conversation. It is those safeguards that one must see as the antidote to the persuasive aspect of AI, but I completely accept what people said on that.

The fourth issue, which was touched on very briefly, was the operation of devices. That, I think, referred to the fact that quite a number of medical devices can be operated by, for example, the blink of an eye or something quite minor. Again, that needs to be properly safeguarded. Those may not necessarily be AI problems but problems with other sorts of developments in technology.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, for raising this. We need to consider all the points she made. At the moment, apart from the advertising amendment, which I will bring forward, I am not sure that it requires amendment to the Bill.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

Is there a guarantee that we will see those amendments in Committee rather than on Report? That is important, because there is a very different procedure in Committee, in which we can go back and forth and query amendments.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am going to do my best.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Falconer of Thoroton and Baroness Berridge

Committee stage
Friday 23rd January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

It is for Parliament to decide whether it is willing to pass the Bill. If Parliament is willing to pass the Bill, there may be the need for the legal change that the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, referred to. Whether or not you are willing to make the change is, for the reason I have said, a matter of what you think is the principle. Those are the only remarks that I need to make in relation to that, and I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

There will later be a group of amendments that relate to freedom of conscience. The noble and learned Lord has outlined another group of people in response to solving the issue from the Delegated Powers Committee around commissioners and NHS England. At this stage, in an effort to use our time efficiently, will he think about how wide the conscience clause will need to be to include people who have objections to this—it is not just clinicians; it may be those who do not want to be involved in commissioning these services—so that we do not end up with a huge group later in Committee?

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I will certainly think about it. I am not quite sure what the noble Baroness is asking, but whatever it is, I will try to co-operate as much as possible.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

I made precisely this point, not about the information that is provided but about how people are getting their information, and about misinformation. We are beginning to hear of cases of ChatGPT potentially suggesting that a young person take their own life. Informed consent as the noble and learned Lord described is very much in the classical sense, as I learned. The point I made is about dealing with misinformation and malinformation. What is the duty now? I invite the noble and learned Lord to write to me, but I think—I hope—it is a developing area of law.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I apologise; I should have answered that request. I do not want to write; I want to tell the noble Baroness the answer now. The Bill, in the places that I have indicated, says that the panel, the two doctors and the assisting doctor must be satisfied that the consent is informed. If the position is that the person who wants the assistance, or is about to get the assistance, is misinformed in the way that the noble Baroness described, that would not be informed consent. For example, having been subject to digital information that is completely wrong or misleading in what it says would not be informed consent. As time goes on, no doubt doctors and others who have to satisfy themselves that the consent is informed will have to take steps to ensure that the patient’s understanding is right.

This goes to what the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said. Sometimes, people do not take in what you are saying. Some people take in the wrong thing. Other people are, in the back of their mind—you cannot know this—thinking of something that is completely wrong. It is for the doctor or the panel in every case to satisfy themselves. It is explicit in the Bill that consent must be informed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

Again, I do not think it needs to be on the face of the Bill, because the Bill is clear about the rights of the doctor in relation to that.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

Sadly, for the noble and learned Lord, I think that there are more amendments that need to be discussed, including one that I have laid. We have all discussed this on the basis that there is no one else in the room. There could be relatives there expressing a wish. We have discussed this on the basis that the patient rises and has capacity. They may not have capacity and there may be relatives in the room with enduring powers of attorney. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, shakes her head, but there are many scenarios in which there is not clarity in the Bill between the moment the drug is administered and the moment of death or it fails. I am afraid that I give the noble and learned Lord notice that I think we will have to come back to this, because the medical profession is asking for clarity.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Falconer of Thoroton and Baroness Berridge

Committee stage
Friday 9th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I do not accept that. The position is in relation to the panel. If it wants a report from a doctor, it can get it. I understand the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, to be saying that the court can ask for all these things—which of course it can—and if it thinks they are appropriate, it will do so. I assume it will not ask for them when it does not think they are necessary to the resolution of the issues. The panel can do the same and, if it does not get them, just like the court, it will have to say no.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

In relation to the panel, as a non-medic I understand from my time on the Select Committee that “multidisciplinary” has a particular meaning within healthcare that the witness to the Commons was relating to, so it is not quite the same issue. Is the noble and learned Lord not concerned that only two of the three representative bodies of the panel came and gave evidence to the Select Committee, and the British Association of Social Workers and the Royal College of Psychiatrists are not supporting the Bill, regardless of what their view might be on the principle? Although the noble and learned Lord is obviously very well persuaded by the evidence, the professional bodies that would sit on this panel are not yet persuaded.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Falconer of Thoroton and Baroness Berridge

Committee stage
Friday 5th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

Just to clarify my position, I was responding to the debate which gave rise to real concerns about the age. I understood the noble Baronesses, Lady Cass and Lady Finlay, to say that perhaps a way forward would be to see whether there were additional safeguards from 18 to 25. That would involve me having a discussion with them and, if they were satisfied that there were additional safeguards and that they thought the age of 18 was right, that would obviously have an effect on me. If they put other arguments, I would obviously take them on board as well. My experience of the House is that, if one sees a way forward, before one continues making the same arguments as before, one sees whether a compromise that sensible Members of the House think would be enough works and whether it could attract support on Report. That was what I was thinking.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

May I draw the attention of the noble and learned Lord to the fact that the amendments I have laid in relation to EHCPs and additional assessment criteria are currently in group 7? If he has that meeting and that compromise might be available, that may enable me to withdraw some amendments.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I very much welcome that suggestion. I also welcome the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Harper, who, as I understand it, is saying that we should also look at the clinical diagnosis of people. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, also raised that point. I am more than happy to include both those things, and if they both want to come, I would welcome them.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Falconer of Thoroton and Baroness Berridge

Committee stage
Friday 21st November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, my name is on the amendment that the noble and learned Lord has just mentioned. This was also from Second Reading. There are loads of people signing forms saying that coercion or pressure has not happened. What is the situation with the internet? What is the situation for young people? We are failing young people if we do not make clear how that practitioner is going to know. Young people are pressured through non-human means nowadays.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

The Bill makes it absolutely clear that it must be your own decision. Let us suppose that your views of the world are affected by the internet and that you are ill and an organisation is urging you to commit suicide, that organisation should be liable if that happens.

In Amendment 49, the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, wants “person” to include a body corporate or an organisation in relation to pressure. If an organisation or a body corporate is putting pressure on a group of people or on individuals and that makes them do it—this is putting it crudely, but if an organisation says, “Do have an assisted death; it is the right thing for everybody or for you”—that should be covered by the Bill. The noble Baroness adverted to how “person” can generally include both corporate person and human person, but I can talk to her separately about that to make sure that it is covered.