Protection of Freedoms Bill

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Monday 6th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, the purpose of this amendment is to provide for strengthened and new powers of entry for the police to enter and inspect known or suspected scrap metal dealer premises, and any metal and records kept on the premises, as well as powers to close down dealerships should those premises be suspected of being used for knowingly handling stolen material. At present the police are able to enter only registered premises but this amendment will give the right to enter premises irrespective of whether they are entered on the register, as well as the power to close dealerships.

Considerable concern has been expressed in the light of the increasing incidence of metal theft related to the rise in its value, with the price of copper having doubled to more than £5,000 a tonne since 2009, and the value of scrap metal at an all-time high. This has become a highly organised crime. Metal is stolen to sell on to dealers who will probably smelt it down before selling it on. The impact of such thefts on many people, buildings and organisations is considerable, not least on the railway network and railway passengers and on churches and indeed war memorials, with at least one war memorial a week being stripped in London.

The cost of metal theft is now estimated to be running at £1 billion a year and causing some 16,000 hours of train delays. In total, Network Rail says the cost of such thefts has amounted to some £43 million across the United Kingdom. It is also apparently resulting in the deaths of two thieves a month as they attempt to strip cabling from electricity substations or railways. That last point may not arouse much concern or sympathy, but it is still the loss of two human lives a month which could be avoided and is perhaps a consequence of the current spate of metal thefts that is not often raised.

It is important that action is taken as quickly as possible. At least one major recycling firm has moved to cashless payment, and on Thursday we shall be debating my noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester’s amendment to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders of Bill, which provides for cashless transactions to be compulsory in the scrap metal trade. This would be an important action in the drive against metal thefts and I commend my noble friend for his robust campaign on this issue.

We know that police forces are stepping up their activities against this lucrative crime but they need to be given further powers to combat it with maximum effectiveness. One such power is provided for in this amendment, namely stronger and new powers of entry for the police to premises suspected of being used for handling stolen metal and the power to obtain a closure order against a dealership where there is a belief that such criminal activity is taking place. This amendment, providing new powers to the police to enter and close down unregulated scrap metal dealerships, is in line with the recommendations of the Association of Chief Police Officers’ metal theft working group.

Combined with the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders of Bill to ban cashless transactions, this amendment presents a robust package of measures to tackle this growing epidemic. I hope the Government will indicate their support for this amendment and ensure that the police are properly equipped to deal with the increasing incidence of metal thefts. I beg to move.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 37A, tabled by my noble friends Lady Royall and Lord Rosser, because the new powers that it confers on authorities to enter and inspect scrap metal dealerships represent, as my noble friend Lord Rosser says, an important element in the comprehensive overhaul of the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964, which I have been calling for in your Lordships’ House since I asked my Oral Question on the subject on 3 October last year. It also fits perfectly with the move to cashless transactions, which the Home Secretary said in a Written Statement on 26 January that the Government now support. This is the subject of my own amendment to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, which the Committee will be considering on Thursday, possibly alongside the Government’s own amendments, the details of which we are awaiting.

This morning I met Deputy Chief Constable Paul Crowther of the British Transport Police to discuss this amendment. As the House will be aware, the BTP has been in the lead on the metal theft issue and I again commend it for what it is doing to tackle it. It has asked me to tell your Lordships—and I quote directly from a message it has given me—that:

“The power of closure is something that we would really want for a number of reasons, not least so that we can support legitimate businesses who will comply with the cashless system when it is introduced”.

Over the last four months I have been overwhelmed by the representations that have been made to me about the necessity for government action to tackle what is now a metal theft epidemic. The Transport Select Committee in another place says that the theft of signalling cable was responsible for the delay or cancellation of over 35,000 national rail services last year. There are eight actual or attempted thefts on the railway every day. My friends in the heritage rail sector—and I declare an interest as the president of the Heritage Railway Association—report weekly thefts of metal objects from their yards, depots and sheds, the value of which runs into thousands of pounds. Almost no aspect of our national life has escaped unscathed: manhole covers; war memorial plaques; even huge pieces of art like the Barbara Hepworth sculpture in Dulwich Park or the statue of Dr Alfred Salter in Cherry Gardens, Bermondsey; lead from church roofs and sacred objects from within churches; electricity and telecom cables—the list is endless.

Many of your Lordships will have seen the open letter published in the Times on 11 January that was signed by an impressive array of business leaders, including the chairmen or chief executives of BT, Network Rail, the Energy Networks Association and the Ecclesiastical Insurance company. They called for a complete update of the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964. Among the long list of changes they want to see were police powers to close unscrupulous scrap metal dealers, and police authority to search all premises owned and operated by scrap metal dealers—the measure proposed in this amendment. In my view, the police should be given powers to inspect any articles and records kept on site and to close down dealerships should there be reasonable suspicion that they are handling and dealing in stolen metal.

It is abundantly clear that the law needs to be completely rewritten. In the other place tomorrow there will be a debate initiated by officers of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Combating Metal Theft—I declare a very modest interest as one of its vice-chairs. In addition to the move towards cashless transactions they will call for a robust licensing scheme for scrap metal dealers to replace the present registration scheme, as well as all the measures that have been put forward by industry, the church and the police.

I shall be very interested to hear what the Minister has to say when he responds. I know that we will achieve a cashless regime either on Thursday or at Report stage of the LASPO Bill, but I hope that he will be able to give a commitment that there will at least be comprehensive legislation in the next Session which will rewrite the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964.

[Baroness Browning]

My Lords, I rise very briefly to endorse what noble Lords have said about the seriousness of metal theft, and I know that my noble friend the Minister is fully aware of the importance of this issue in addressing the existing legislation, which is clearly out of date.

Last year, when I had the privilege to serve in the Home Office, I became acutely aware not only of the breadth of this crime but also, as we have heard, of its effects. Stolen cables not only disrupt but cause chaos on railway lines, and also in telecommunications. I know that the Church of England has also carried out a very important report that looks at what has happened to its churches and cathedrals that have been affected by this.

The point I want to make—I know that my noble friend is aware of it—is that although we see these matters reported in the press, and some people have first-hand experience of the outcome of this crime, it is organised crime. These are not individual actions taken at random. Serious organised crime, on a large scale, is behind the metal theft that is taking place in this country. When, for example, cables are removed, or lead is removed from roofs, all too often the people concerned are not scurrying about; they are wearing the proper safety jackets, looking like workers who should be carrying out these functions. They steal vehicles that have commercial insignia on the side to make it look as though a legitimate vehicle is being loaded with the metal. A lot of thought, a lot of money and a lot of organisation goes into this. I hope that when my noble friend replies—he and I have discussed this very serious matter—he will be able to reassure the House that the Government are looking holistically at all the elements mentioned this evening. This whole question is about the seriousness of breaking through organisations that clearly find it financially viable to continue this very destructive activity.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I could refer the noble Lord to discussions that I have had with other people in the industry, who have pointed out that the high levels of cash in the industry are driving criminality. If we can remove a lot of that cash then we can possibly remove a great deal of the criminality. I am not saying that it will be a magic wand that will solve all the problems—just as revising the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 will not solve all problems, as his noble friend Lord Faulkner knows well. However, they are steps on the road to better regulating this industry, which is needed.

We are looking for a coherent package of measures to tackle metal theft. Obviously there will have to be further measures and regulation in due course, possibly along the lines of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. I do not want to rush into that at this stage. There is an opportunity to go cashless and to increase what are, at the moment, the derisory fines available under the 1964 Act, and we obviously need to do more to that Act in the future.

I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, on his ingenuity in finding a way of bringing forward amendments to this Bill on this subject. His noble friend Lord Faulkner tried to do so but failed. We also gave it some thought, but the drafting of the Bill is such that it is rather difficult.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

The noble Lord is half right: I attempted to get cashless into this Bill and was told that I could not. I will help to get cashless into LASPO instead.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, we have cashless in the LASPO Bill and I hope that it will deal with this problem.

We have to consider the other important points that need to be dealt with. One of those—and, again, this is why I am interested in how the Opposition voted on the previous amendment—is whether the powers of entry are adequate and what powers of entry need to be given to the police. We can look at these matters, first, in the LASPO Bill and consider further regulation in due course.

I welcome the support of the Front Bench opposite for further action in this area. Obviously, there is more that we can do. I do not think that this is the right way of going forward at this stage because, as I said, we want to bring forward amendments in the LASPO Bill on Report. I can give an assurance that as soon as possible thereafter, by whatever legislative means is appropriate, we will bring forward the further amendments that need to be made, particularly to the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964. With those assurances, I hope the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Violence against Women

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Thursday 19th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I would not want to foreshorten the consultation, which ends, as I said, on the 30 March, but obviously we want to respond as quickly as possible after that. As for trafficking, the noble Baroness will be aware that we have recently brought in some amendments to the Protection of Freedoms Bill that help us to comply with the convention on those matters, and I believe we will be very broadly compliant with that convention. However, that goes slightly wider than the Question on the Order Paper.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, do the Government have any intention of accepting the advice of ACPO and, indeed, of his noble friend Lady Trumpington on tackling violence against women working in the sex industry, who are afraid of reporting assaults on them because if they make those reports they are likely to be charged under the laws relating to prostitution. Is it not time that the law on prostitution was changed along the lines adopted in New Zealand and as ACPO suggests?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, the noble Lord is taking the issue way beyond the Question on the Order Paper, which relates to the Council of Europe’s convention. Obviously we will consider those points, but those are matters for domestic law and not matters relating to compliance with this convention, which relates to combating violence against women.

Crime: Metal Thieves

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Thursday 15th December 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to establish a nationwide task force to target metal thieves.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the growing problem of metal theft and are taking urgent steps to address it. Five million pounds has been provided to establish a dedicated national task force to significantly increase enforcement activity to deal with both scrap metal dealers who trade in stolen metal and those who steal metal.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, that is fine as far as it goes but does the Minister agree with what his Home Office colleague James Brokenshire said in the other place on Monday? Mr Brokenshire estimated that the cost of metal theft may be now as much as £777 million a year and said,

“we have now reached the stage where the only conclusion is that new legislation is needed to tackle metal theft”.—[Official Report, Commons, 12/12/11; col. 508.]

As a vital first step, will the Minister accept my amendment to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, which would make cash transactions for scrap metal sales illegal, bearing in mind that probably as much as £1 billion out of the £5 billion in this industry is accounted for in cash and is the cause of most of the problems?

[Lord Henley]

First, my Lords, I always agree with everything that my honourable friends say and I agree with absolutely everything that my honourable friend Mr James Brokenshire said on Monday about metal theft. We think that the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 is dead. It is past its sell-by date and we need to look at other measures to properly regulate the scrap metal yards, because that is where the problem is—in dealing with the stolen metal. We will certainly look very carefully at the noble Lord’s amendment, which I have not yet seen, when it comes before us shortly in the legal aid Bill. If we can give it a fair wind or tinker with it, we certainly will because I agree with him that addressing the question of cash in this industry certainly needs looking at.

Railways: Theft

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Monday 3rd October 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have plans to amend the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 to prohibit cash transactions, as a means of reducing metal theft.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the significance of metal theft to the United Kingdom. The Home Office is in discussion with other government departments to identify whether any legislative changes are needed to tackle metal theft, including the possibility of moving to a cashless model.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord on his promotion. I express my regret at the departure from the Government of the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, and wish her a full recovery.

I am pleased that the Government appear to be taking the problem of metal theft seriously. Is the noble Lord aware—I am sure he is—that ACPO reckons that the cost to the United Kingdom economy last year of this crime was something in the order of £770 million and that the problem is getting worse with the rise in the price of scrap metal? I doubt whether there are many Members of your Lordships’ House whose trains have not been delayed as the result of the theft of signalling cable, which is adding thousands of hours of delay to train schedules. Does the Minister agree that the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 is now out of date and that it needs to be replaced by new legislation that increases maximum penalties, eliminates the payment of cash as a means of settling transactions and moves to a system of licensing in place of the registration that exists at present?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I join the noble Lord in expressing regret at the departure of my noble friend. We will all miss her very much on these Benches and I only hope that I can perform even half as well as she did, although I hope that I can get majorities larger than the equality that she got on the last Division that she took through this House. We will certainly miss her on this Front Bench.

The noble Lord is right to point to the problems of metal theft. There is not just the direct cost but the cost to the transport industry, to the power transmission industry and to others. We will look at all possible changes that we can make. The noble Lord is right to draw attention to the 1964 Act and possible changes to bring in a cashless model. Whether that would necessarily improve matters needs looking at, but it would certainly improve the traceability of metals and might make it harder for criminals to dispose of them for cash. That is why we want to look at it.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 243, 271, 272, 304, 305 and 306. Since all the amendments are to do with the British Transport Police and the British Transport Police Authority, they have been deliberately grouped together rather than with specific clauses. They aim, as I said at Second Reading, to,

“strengthen the Bill by increasing co-operation between the authority and other police forces, particularly in counterterrorism and in the run-up to the Olympics”.—[Official Report, 27/4/11; col. 173.]

I shall first outline the context in which the amendments have been tabled and apologise to the House for being unable to be here when they were debated in Committee. Again, as I said at Second Reading, I am an unashamed proponent of two-tier policing in this country, with a national police service complemented by a number of local and specialist forces. Bearing in mind that the last royal commission on policing was in 1962 and much has happened since then which suggests the need for reform of the policing as extant at that time, I was very disappointed to find that although called the police reform Bill, there is very little in it about reform, except about the governance of policing, which is not the same thing.

However, these amendments are about long-needed reform; they are an attempt to complete business that was begun as long ago as October 2001, when the then Government issued a consultation document entitled Modernising the British Transport Police, which included detailed proposals to bring it in line with Home Office police forces in terms of accountability, status and powers. It proposed, first, placing the jurisdiction of British Transport Police constables over the railways on a statutory basis; that was partly addressed in the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003, which gave them the powers and privileges of a Home Office constable, not only over all railway property, but throughout Great Britain in relation to railway matters. It secondly proposed giving British Transport Police constables jurisdiction outside the railways in certain circumstances. This, again, was partly addressed in the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001, emergency legislation that followed 9/11 and other terrorist attacks.

However, although welcoming these changes, the Transport Police and its authority regarded them as only partial introduction of what had been proposed. Therefore, they tried to use the opportunity presented by the August 2008 consultation that preceded the Policing and Crime Act 2009 to address the identified anomalies once and for all. They submitted a formal request for a number of legislative changes that addressed the issues of police powers and jurisdiction to which, reprehensibly, they received no formal feedback from the Home Office. Instead, there was no consultation and they were surprised to find that Schedule 7 of the Act stated that:

“Where a member of the British Transport Police Force is for the time being under the direction and control of the chief officer of another police force by virtue of a police force collaboration agreement … the member shall have all the powers and privileges of a member of that other force”.

Furthermore, no attempt was made to address an added complication to co-operation that they had raised, namely that the powers of jurisdiction of police officers from Home Office forces were not extended to match those of a British Transport Police officer, which include the ability to police in England, Wales and across the border in Scotland.

Charitably, the British Transport Police assumed that these continued inequities were not intended, but resulted from a lack of knowledge about the anomalies that resulted from gaps in existing legislation. Therefore, they continued to look for opportunities to obtain parity of police-officer powers regardless of employing force, the next opportunity coming in September 2010 with the coalition Government’s consultation before the Bill, entitled Policing in the 21st Century; Reconnecting Police and the People.

The Bill envisages annual police plans, covering areas of the country yet to be determined, drawn up by elected police and crime commissioners. Assuming that, in logic, this must include all police forces, the Transport Police, in its response to the consultation, pointed out that, as the specialist national force for the railways, cross-border working was part of its day-to-day business. It welcomed the fact that, in drawing up their plans, PCCs would have to look beyond their own force borders,

“under a strong duty to collaborate, in the interests of value for money and to tackle cross border, national and international crimes”.

The British Transport Police also said that it was keen to ensure that the different governance structures between it and its authority and their Home Office colleagues and their authorities did not create difficulties in the excellent communications and partnership working that currently existed between them. There must be, for example, adequate provision for communications between the authorities and committees of the Transport Police, the Civil and Nuclear Constabulary, the MoD Police and police and crime commissioners, if they subsume the role currently filled by the Association of Police Authorities.

I mention this not to criticise the Bill so much as to suggest that these amendments to do with the British Transport Police ought to be government amendments. Identified anomalies that inhibit national and local policing have existed for far too long and have been drawn to the attention of both the Home Office and the Department for Transport over a number of years. Amendments 242, 271 and 272 are designed to rectify the status anomaly; Amendment 243 is designed to provide the opportunity for the Transport Police to protect the travelling public by taking preventive action against possible sex offenders.

The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, will speak to Amendments 271, 272 and 304 to 306, covering licensing and firearms. All are designed to save money and better protect the public.

I appeal to the Minister to accept the opportunity created by the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill to complete this unfinished business. I know that both she and the Transport Police and its authority have been in contact with the Department for Transport and I look forward to hearing what may have been agreed between them. I accept that she will be unable to promise more than that the issues I have raised will now be tackled positively and not allowed to drag on as they have over the past 10 years. In that anticipation, I beg to move.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, I speak in favour of the seven amendments. I start by expressing my appreciation to the Minister for the constructive approach she has adopted in conversations with both the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and me about the role, powers and jurisdictions of the BTP. I know that she has written to the Transport Minister about these amendments and I hope that when she answers the debate she will be able to say that the Government at least accept the spirit of them, if not accept them tonight.

I know from what the Minister said in Committee that she is particularly concerned about licensing issues and the difficulties that the BTP and the travelling public face with anti-social behaviour on the railway fuelled by excessive drinking. I shall come to the amendments which deal with that issue in a moment.

I would like to add a word to what the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said about jurisdiction. This is covered in Amendment 242. The British Transport Police Authority has sent me a copy of a letter which was sent on 7 July from the chief constable of the force, Andrew Trotter, to the Minister of State for Transport, Theresa Villiers. In a paragraph headed “Jurisdiction”, he says:

“The current legislative anomalies mean that there are a number of caveats applied to the powers of BTP officers, these are provided not through our own Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003, but the Anti-terrorism Crime and Security Act 2001 (section 100(2) and (3)) which pre-dated it. The amendment laid before the House of Lords seeks to remove the ambiguity the current legislation creates through these caveats. If the amendment is approved, in the eyes of the public and the rail industry, it will have no obvious impact on day-to-day policing of the railways and I can assure you it will have no impact on costs or other resource implications. It will however put BTP officers on the same footing as their Home Office colleagues when not physically on rail property or carrying out duties related to the railways, i.e. they will be warranted officers not civilians”.

Amendments 271 and 272 deal with the Firearms Act. I read in the latest issue of Railnews, which is the monthly newspaper for rail industry staff, that the Government have approved the creation of an armed response unit for the BTP. That paper states:

“Transport secretary Philip Hammond said the Home Office go-ahead was not in response to any specific threat but would reduce the burden on other police forces which provide armed support to the BTP”.

That is all well and good and it is what the BTP chief constable asked for, but it appears that BTP officers, once selected and through the selection process, will have to apply individually for firearms certificates. This seems ludicrous and flies in the face of the Home Secretary’s determination to reduce bureaucracy in the police service—a point made by the chief constable in his letter to Theresa Villiers. The cost in direct financial terms and in opportunity costs to the BTP and Home Office forces to process more than 100 applications is completely avoidable simply by giving the BTP the same powers as those expressly quoted in the Act for the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the Serious Organised Crime Agency. It also creates a delay in trained officers being fully operational. Our amendments avoid that and I hope the Minister will feel able to accept them too.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Monday 11th July 2011 Lords Chamber

Amendments 133 to 138 agreed.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester)]

I have to advise the House that if Amendment 139 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 140 for reason of pre-emption.

Amendment 139

Moved by

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Tuesday 24th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

I will speak to Amendments 231A, 231B, 234ZA and 234ZB standing in my name. They relate to the British Transport Police. That body is unique and not, as far as I know, subject to the idea of elected commissioners. However, it polices our railways and goes back in its origins to the days when transport policemen were the signalmen on the railway who looked after the conduct of trains.

We have moved on a bit and the transport police now are more or less corralled within the boundaries of the railway, so that they cannot exercise their powers outside the railway unless explicit guidance or agreement has been reached with the county force or its successors. These amendments would extend the jurisdiction of the transport police to make them responsible for policing transport interchanges. Nearly every railway station has a car park, a bicycle place and somewhere where people catch the bus. People need to be assured of their safety throughout their journey. Some research I had done about 18 months ago showed that according to the estimates made by the Department for Transport, 11.5 per cent more journeys would be made on public transport if passengers felt more secure. I am not pretending for one instant that letting the transport police embrace the precincts of a station would put that all right, but I know that the moment when people get off a train and transfer to another means of public transport, even walking down the street, is when they feel most vulnerable and is probably when they are most likely to be attacked.

I am not asking for more money to be given to the British Transport Police, which is, in fact, a matter for the Department for Transport, rather than the Home Office, but it is important that some real force is put behind the guidance. Actually, there is no guidance. Informal arrangements exist in some places, and they work, but they are informal. To take an example I know well, at Reading station, which has extensive bus stops, car parks, some of them rather nasty, and cycle racks, the police cannot even deal with disorder in the park that was built as part of the station but is outside the limits. We want to use the manpower at the Government’s disposal in the best possible way to promote the interests of passengers, and the British Transport Police force is, to a large extent, paid for by the train operating companies .

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, and have put my name to the same amendments in this group. I commend the speech made at the beginning of this debate by my noble friend Lord Stevenson, who summed up ideally the importance of the British Transport Police and the necessity of removing the anomalies in existing legislation. We made some progress on improvements over the past 10 years. For example, at one point, it was illegal for a British Transport Police officer to pursue a pickpocket out of the station on to the neighbouring street. It was like one of those Wild West films where the police’s jurisdiction finishes at the state line and the next state’s police have to take over. It is an absurd situation. The problem that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, referred to still exists to a considerable degree. I believe that it is important that when people undertake a journey by train to an airport station, the British Transport Police should be not only on the platform but in the airport as well because they are providing the same sort of security to the traveller and, as far as the passenger is concerned, it is a seamless journey.

There are some anomalies that we have the opportunity to address with these amendments. I shall concentrate on one aspect of them relating to alcohol. The BTP is at present excluded by Section 1 of the Police Act 1996 from having a view on licensing applications, even though there are now large numbers of retail outlets selling alcohol on stations, as the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, points out. It would be very much in the interests not just of the travelling public but of the public generally that, if the British Transport Police was aware of problems relating to particular premises associated with the railway, it had the opportunity to object to those licences. I understand that at present it is not able to do that.

A number of these anomalies can be put right, particularly if the amendments that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, has tabled and which I am supporting were to be accepted by the Government. I very much hope that the Minister will look at them, and if it is not possible to accept the amendments today will be able to come back to us at a later stage to say that some of these difficulties will be ironed out at later stages of the Bill. I think these are worthwhile amendments, and I hope the Committee will support them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

I think that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, heard what he feared I was saying rather than what I actually said.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

I heard it, too.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

Well, both your Lordships are strong protagonists of the British Transport Police. My point was about the potential confusion. I am sure that all of us in this Committee know instantly whether a police officer whom we see is from the Metropolitan Police, the British Transport Police or the Ministry of Defence Police. We recognise the hat badges and the different detail around the cap, but most people do not. I was simply demonstrating that this was an area of considerable confusion.

There was equally severe concern and criticism of the way that the Metropolitan Police had used Section 44 of the Terrorism Act in terms of stop and search and there was also enormous confusion about whether it was Section 44 of the Terrorism Act or stop and search under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act or whatever else. The point is that people do not understand these processes. Before we go down the road of saying that the remit of British Transport Police officers should automatically be extended, we need to think through how that will be managed and dealt with.

Prostitution

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

The noble and learned Baroness has just told me something of which I was not aware. I do not know whether the department is aware of it, but I will certainly take the point away because it is extremely salient.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, following the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, does the Minister agree, without commenting on any case currently before the courts, that a woman working in the sex industry who claims to have been assaulted by men should expect protection from the police and from society, rather than face prosecution for brothel keeping?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

She is certainly entitled to protection from the police in cases of violence. We still have the legal situation, but she is certainly entitled to protection against violence.

Drugs: Classification

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Tuesday 9th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I suggest that there is a real difference between alcohol and tobacco, which taken in moderation are not harmful to society, and the drugs on the classified list. I am afraid that there is no consensus between the conclusions reached by Professor Nutt and the evidence that he took.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, would the noble Baroness care to reconsider that last answer and separate alcohol from tobacco? There is no safe use of tobacco; all government advice that has ever been offered on the subject is that, when tobacco is used in accordance with manufacturers’ instructions, it is a killer. Therefore, it is treated differently from alcohol.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I accept the trend of that comment from the noble Lord. It is indeed the case that tobacco is harmful, as he has just said. I think the House would agree that alcohol taken in moderation is not so harmful.

Identity Documents Bill

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts

Monday 1st November 2010 Grand Committee

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

Of course, to higher and greater things. It is notorious in our system that Ministers remain in post for less than two years, and that one Minister does not feel bound by the statements of another. If anyone doubts that, I can give them half a dozen chapters and verses now. Therefore, the soft soap, even from the mouth of as distinguished a Minister as the noble Baroness, is not enough where one is dealing with issues of citizens’ basic rights. For this side of the House, and no less for Members opposite, the destruction of the national identity register is a crucial matter. If ever there was a situation where somebody beyond the Minister is needed to give reassurance that what has to be done has been properly done, this is it.

Subsection (2) of the proposed new clause requires the independent person appointed to review the arrangements to make an annual report of his or her findings not just to the Secretary of State but also contemporaneously to Parliament. That ensures that the absence of specifics in the proposed new clause is adequate, because any independent reviewer, because they know that they have to report to Parliament as well as to the Secretary of State, will be on their mettle.

I finish by saying that this deals in the Bill with a number of anxieties expressed by the Joint Committee on Human Rights when it reported in October. For example, it stated that,

“the Government should report to Parliament on the progress towards the destruction of this information and the decommissioning of the NIR”.

It says that “the Government” should report. However, as I have attempted to justify, it should go a step further. The committee made other recommendations, particularly with regard to Clause 10, which entitles the Secretary of State to require verification information from not only a long list of government bodies, but from others; and, in subsection (10), gives discretion to the Secretary of State to disapply subsections (8) and (9). Subsection (8) requires that information in relation to passports should be destroyed no later than 28 days after the passport is issued. Subsection (9) contains another provision related to that. The clause gives discretion to the Secretary of State to disapply those subsections where he or she thinks it is “desirable” for the purposes of preventing or detecting crime and so on. That is fair enough, provided there is an independent reviewer who can look at that and make sure that no slackness has entered the system, and that any use of the discretions in the clause has been sensible and justifiable.

Finally, the Joint Committee expressed concern about the proportionality of some of the rights given to the Secretary of State by the Bill. For those reasons, I commend Amendment 19, and the inclusion of an independent review in the Bill. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester)]

I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, will forgive me. The Committee is considering Amendment 12, and Amendment 19 is grouped with it. I assume that what the noble Lord is doing is speaking to his amendment, not moving it.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

Indeed he is. I apologise.