Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (No. 2) (England) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Friday 18th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]]

My Lords, we are witnessing the strange death of parliamentary democracy in this country. There is no other way to describe the charade in which we are involved today. Many of these regulations, as so many colleagues have pointed out, have long since taken effect. What are we meant to do? This is government by press release; in some cases, as pointed out by the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, the regulations had taken effect even before they were laid. Why are we not discussing the rule of six regulations today? That is the issue of the day—why are we not discussing it? Why do we not even know the date on which they will happen?

Why do we have a Minister who does not even have the courtesy to turn up to the House to deal with these important regulations and who does not answer questions? We had a Statement earlier this week; I asked why the rules were different in Scotland and in England and what it was about English children that made them more likely to be a risk. My noble friend the Minister said in his reply that

“we celebrate the differences between our two nations in this.”—[Official Report, 14/9/20; col. 1006.]

I do not celebrate the differences which mean that I cannot visit my grandchildren in London, but they could get in a taxi, on the Tube, or on a plane or a train and come to Scotland perfectly legally. How do you explain that to people? What prevents the Government getting together the various Chief Medical Officers from the devolved regions, agreeing a common policy and implementing it, if it is all supposed to be based on scientific evidence?

Furthermore, when asked difficult questions such as the one from the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, who asked a very reasonable question about his family, the Minister replied:

“that is the pub-quiz question of all pub-quiz questions”—[Official Report, 14/9/20; col. 1004.]

and referred him to the regulations. There is no accountability for what the Government are doing. Parliament is being bypassed. We are not in a position to debate these regulations; we cannot intervene in speeches; it is absolutely unsatisfactory and needs to be put right.

Covid-19 Update

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 14th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the amount of testing we are doing is increasing enormously. Most people who book a test do get it locally, and that test is delivered quickly and on time. The result arrives within 24 hours and we are doing a million tests a week, which is well within the bounds of our business capacity.

The noble Lord is right that the system is under scrutiny and pressure. Not everyone is getting a test where and when they want it. However, overall, it is reasonable to ask people not to make frivolous demands upon the tests, and to ask that those who are asymptomatic wait until there is further test capacity before they step forward to ask for their test.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]]

My Lords, can my noble friend tell me what the Government have identified in English children under 12, including babies, that makes them, to use his phrase, “a vector of infection and a Covid hazard”, that does not apply to children in Scotland, who have been back at school for weeks? And on the subject of making things easier to understand—simplifying matters—why is it okay in England to meet one’s grandchildren in the pub but not in their family home if the household consists of six people?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, Scottish children are just the same as English children, but the Scottish Government have decided to take a different approach; we celebrate the differences between our two nations in this. With respect to meeting in the pub, you cannot meet more than six people in the pub and you cannot meet more than six people between two households. The arithmetic is reasonably straightforward.

Independent Residential Care

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 7th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell [V]]

The noble Baroness is entirely right that the issue of excess beds is an unfortunate and unwelcome added pressure on an already pressured system. Sir Simon Stevens was echoing the sentiments of the Government and the Secretary of State when he said that we need to move towards a long-term settlement for social care. That was very much the commitment of the Prime Minister during the election and in the manifesto. Steps have been taken towards working on that but we have been interrupted by Covid-19. It remains a number one priority for the Government. In the meantime, we will be putting in the financial resources necessary to provide the resilience for those smaller homes of which the noble Baroness speaks.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]]

My Lords, does my noble friend think it reasonable that, 12 months after the Economic Affairs Committee produced the report Social Care Funding: Time to End a National Scandal, we have not had a debate on the report or a response from the Government? He talks about providing resources for social care. That report identified an £8 billion gap just to get back to the standards we had in 2010. Does he not think that instead of the occupants of Nos. 10 and 11 Downing Street standing on their doorsteps and putting their hands together to clap the achievements of social care workers, their hands should be put in the Treasury’s pocket to find the money now urgently needed to prevent the collapse of nursing homes and to prevent us continuing to rely on the good will and hard work of people who are being pressed beyond endurance? This delay cannot go on longer and longer, which has been the pattern for the last decade.

[Lord Bethell [V]]

My noble friend asks the question extremely well. The Lords Economic Affairs Committee report is an extremely thoughtful and respected piece of work. Under normal circumstances we would certainly have had that debate and moved forward on this incredibly important issue, which was flagged both in the election and in the manifesto as a major government priority. However, I cannot hide from my noble friend that the Covid epidemic has disrupted progress, particularly on this delicate issue, which requires a huge amount of management time by senior healthcare officials, who are utterly consumed by Covid at the moment. Please be under no illusion that this is a major priority for the Government. Once the preparations for winter are in place, it will be at the top of the list.

Social Distancing: Two-metre Rule

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 16th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell [V]]

The noble Lord’s maths is entirely right. That is why we are moving cautiously in this area, despite many people’s concerns and despite the profound effect on industries such as the hospitality industry, which we regret enormously. However, the main focus is to drive down the infection rate. If we can get the prevalence levels down sufficiently, social distancing will not be required any further, and it is on that target that we are focusing.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]]

Do the Government accept that each day’s delay in reducing the two-metre rule will result in needless redundancies, that many of these jobs will go in the next few days and will not be replaced in the short term, and that we cannot wait weeks for a review? Failure to act now will see the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs, and that will hang like an albatross around the neck of the Administration.

Covid-19 Update

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 16th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, following the comment of my noble friend Lord Bridges on IR35, which will impose huge costs and burdens on small businesses and entrepreneurs, would it not be sensible for the Government to defer its implementation? More importantly, it is obvious that these measures are going to result in a deep recession in this country. Many good businesses are going to go to the wall, unless they are helped with their cash flow. Declaring an interest as a banker, I know that the banks will want to extend credit to those businesses, but the regulatory rules and the senior managers regime prevent them from doing so. Of course public health is the most important thing, but it is of the utmost importance that the Government enable the banks to provide support for those businesses, and that they recognise that the Budget package, welcome as it is, is a mere flea-bite compared to what is required—and required now.

[Lord Bethell]

My noble friend is entirely right; it is a point well understood in Government. But he does slightly answer his own question, because our priority at this stage is to ensure that the medical and clinical response is right, and that the message gets across to the public about what they can and should do to protect themselves and delay the spread of this virus. I reassure him and the House that the economic impact of this virus is fully understood, and that there will be a full package of measures announced at a later date, once we have got this initial response out of the way.

Coronavirus

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 12th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness is entirely right to ask about a specific group. As yet, I do not have a clear answer on the exact demographic that she describes, but I reassure her that our understanding is that this will hit hardest the most vulnerable in our society. The entire focus of our provisions is therefore to make sure that the most vulnerable are looked after best.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, yesterday I asked my noble friend whether he would give guidance to employers on the standards of deep clean required to enable people to return to premises. He indicated that he thought that the CMO did not think that this was necessary and that such advice would be “red herrings or distracting”. I read in the newspapers today that, sadly, a case was identified in the Treasury, which arranged a deep clean overnight so that people could return to work. Speaking as an employer with buildings where continuing services are important to consumers, customers and others, as well as to maintaining employment, we would like to carry out a deep clean every night, so that, if a case was identified, the premises would be safe, but we do not know what standard of deep clean is required. Frankly, asking a cleaning company what it would recommend does not seem the basis on which best to protect not just the staff of the building but also the businesses. May I reiterate the plea for some guidance? If that is not possible, perhaps we could be told what the Treasury decided.

[Lord Bethell]

I thank my noble friend for his question on deep cleaning. I reassure him that no one is suggesting that the best efforts of any employer to protect the welfare of their staff is in any way irrelevant or undervalued. Cleaning is an important response to this virus and those who decide to put resources into cleaning their premises are entirely to be lauded. There is clear guidance on the PHE website. I have put that guidance in the Library and would be happy to arrange for it to be emailed.

Let me try to explain the nub of the question. The CMO has not put the daily deep cleaning of offices or any work premises at the top of his priorities. The reason for that is that it takes only one person to touch a doorknob at 7 am for that doorknob to be contagious for the rest of the day, whereas a pair of hands can be cleaned many times a day. If you do the arithmetic of how the virus is spread—as the modelling professionals do at SAGE—constant handwashing, which we bang on and on about, is the most effective way of preventing the virus spreading. When that no longer proves an effective measure, the CMO will undoubtedly change the guidance and publish that guidance widely.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Lord’s point has been raised with me by staff of the Palace, who are concerned about this. It is not for me, I am afraid, to answer this question; it is for the officers of the House. I know they are looking at this matter and are being advised by the Chief Medical Officer.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I return to the question of deep cleaning. My noble friend says that the advice is clear. Could he confirm that, if an employer arranges for all surfaces within their premises to be treated, that will be sufficient to allow staff to come back into the building safely?

Covid-19: Deep Cleaning

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 11th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, makes an important point. Cleaning and cleansing will be uppermost in all our minds, and I assure the House that it is a source of great focus in the efforts to combat Covid-19. However, I will try to persuade the noble Lord that we have only limited resources, time of those involved in the cleaning processes and good will from the public, so timing is essential when we are delivering measures to combat the spread of Covid-19. The CMO has been very clear on this: personal hygiene in washing hands and avoiding the spread of the virus to the face and skin should be the priority for us all. That is the focus of the Government’s efforts at this stage.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as chairman of a bank. The issue that the noble Lord has raised is very important. If someone is diagnosed with coronavirus, good practice means that no staff are allowed back into the building until it has been deep cleaned. An alternative would be to deep clean the building every night, so that if there were a case people could continue in their work, but to be able to pursue such a policy you need to know exactly what needs to be done to maintain the welfare and safety of the workforce.

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Lord is entirely right that cleaning is important, but the kind of deep cleaning protocols he described are not those recommended by the CMO at this stage of the epidemic. The SAGE group of statisticians and epidemiologists is modelling the outbreak of the virus very closely. Its computer models track the behaviours of the virus, the demographics of the country and the behaviours of people in different circumstances. Its focus is to try to ensure that we channel all our efforts into effective measures and do not explore red herrings or distracting policies that might prove counterproductive or distract from effective measures.

Dementia: Accident and Emergency

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 11th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness will be aware that the identification of dementia patients in England has risen dramatically from 42% to 67%, which more than accounts for the increase in the Alzheimer’s Society’s numbers. We are, however, concerned about this issue and remain focused on pulling together a new challenge on dementia strategy for the next five years and on ensuring that beds are liberated in a timely and reasonable fashion.

Coronavirus is naturally a matter of high concern in our preparations. Care of existing vulnerable and lonely people and the elderly is a massive priority, and we are putting in place plans to provide that care.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, if the care of people with Alzheimer’s and other conditions is such a priority, why have the Government not responded to the Economic Affairs Committee report on social care which came out seven months ago, and why was there nothing in an otherwise excellent Budget speech on social care, which we have been promised now for year after year after year?

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Lord is quite right to point out the delay in providing an answer on social care. That is why the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care wrote to Peers earlier this month, initiating a round of cross-party conversations and putting in the diary the beginnings of a process to pull together cross-party agreement. That cross-party agreement is essential to providing a long-term solution to this important problem.

Nursing and Midwifery

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 30th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford]

I thank the noble Lord for his important question. I am envious of his tartan and I definitely identify with his praise for nurses, who work long hours and serve the most vulnerable at the moments of their greatest need. To answer his specific questions, as part of the NHS people plan, we are committed to supporting career development for nurses, which includes supporting a diverse range of careers. An example would be the advanced practitioners within multi-professional teams. This is an important point that the noble Lord raises. We are also developing a plan for district and community nurses to work with healthcare providers, practitioners and higher education institutions. The plan will set out how we will grow the community nursing workforce, which includes mental health and learning disability nurses, and it is expected to be published later this year.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, might my noble friend not mark this important bicentenary by enabling those nurses who have been in the profession for, say, five or 10 years to have their student loans written off, given that the cost to the taxpayer of not doing so will be greater? The write-off in 30 years’ time for the taxpayer will be £1.2 trillion in cash terms, so why not help the profession and the taxpayer by doing this now?

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford]

The noble Lord has made this point before and I have taken it back to the department before. He will know that we are providing additional financial support to nurses, including the maintenance grant of £5,000 in non-repayable funding, with specific targeted support of £3,000. However, I am very happy to take back his proposal once again, as we have an upcoming Budget.

Health: Sepsis

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford]

That is an extremely helpful and constructive proposal. If the noble Baroness would like to raise it with me outside the Chamber, I will take it up as a matter of priority.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that public education has an important role to play here, so that people are aware of the symptoms—following the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Patel? Can we congratulate the BBC, those of us who are fans of “The Archers”, on the work it has done in this respect?

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford]

I am very happy to congratulate the BBC. I do not know that I heard “The Archers” storyline in question, but I shall make sure that I update my education in this respect. I want also to congratulate Public Health England on its national Start4Life information service for parents. It has worked with Mumsnet to make sure that awareness is spread to those most likely to need it, because those most at risk are the young, the elderly and those who have underlying conditions. Targeting the messaging at those who need it most is very important.