Spending Review 2025

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 12th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

The right reverend Prelate set out a number of issues that he agreed with, and obviously I am grateful for his agreement with those. He talked about child poverty and he knows that—as the Prime Minister described it—our free school meals policy is a down payment on the work that we want to do to tackle and end child poverty. I was lucky enough to be part of a previous Government—I worked for a previous Chancellor—who reduced child poverty by 1 million children, so there should be no doubt about my personal commitment to reducing child poverty. I had to sit by, as did many of my noble friends, and watch the previous Government increase child poverty by 700,000. That is not something that any of us wanted to see; so he should be reassured that we absolutely prioritise this issue.

The right reverend Prelate asked about free school meals. The children of every family on universal credit will be eligible for those free school meals. He described the child poverty strategy as much delayed. I am not sure I would accept that. I think we have set out when it will come—alongside the Budget this autumn—and it will consider all the issues and representations that are put to it. There is quite a lot in this spending review to tackle child poverty. As I say, that is a down payment and I very much hope we will be able to do more.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I very much welcome the fact that the Chancellor reiterated yesterday, in the other place, a commitment to no unfunded increases in expenditure. Could the Minister reassure me about the other promise which she made in the autumn Budget—I am going to read it so I am not misrepresenting it—that there would be no further tax increases during the current Parliament? She said, “I will not increase your income tax; I will not increase your national insurance; I will not increase your VAT”. Does that promise still stand? How can it possibly stand with the Government’s debt interest bill now being £105 billion and rising and the costs of borrowing, because of the level of debt, actually being higher than they were at the time of the crisis under Liz Truss?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question. On the specific question that he asked about whether the manifesto commitments that we have given to working people still stand, yes, they still stand. The manifesto very clearly says there will be no increase in working people’s income tax, national insurance or VAT. That commitment continues to stand. In terms of future decisions on tax and spending, as I have said already, I am not going to write now—it is not in my gift to write now—four years-worth of Budgets. As he knows, the OBR will produce a new forecast in the autumn for the Budget, and the Chancellor will take decisions at that point, based on that forecast. He can be assured, though, that, at all times, we will meet the fiscal rules, but I am not going to prejudge those decisions now.

I am not sure whether he was defending at that point the Liz Truss mini-Budget or not. He shakes his head vociferously. I do not blame him: I would not want to defend it either.

Economic Growth

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 11th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I completely agree with my noble friend.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

On a constructive note, will the Minister give an undertaking to take an early opportunity to read the report that will be produced on Friday by the Financial Services Regulation Committee of this House, which sets out a clear agenda for how the regulators can help to establish growth in financial services, which should be a matter of consensus across the board? It certainly is a unanimous report by this House of the kind of quality that this House is famed for but which does not always result in immediate action by Governments.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his question. I absolutely will read the report as soon as it is published. I was lucky enough to serve on the Economic Affairs Committee when the noble Lord was its chair and I know he is now the chair of the committee producing this report, so I know it will be a report of incredible quality and I look forward to reading it. I know the Chancellor shares many of the committee’s objectives when it comes to financial services, and I hope the noble Lord will see much of that agenda laid out in her next Mansion House speech. I look forward to debating the report with him in this House in due course.

Mansion House Accord

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 14th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am shocked that my noble friend uses the word “leak”—I have no idea what he is talking about. As I have said, it is important that this is a voluntary commitment and that it delivers the investment promised for the UK economy. As I say, funds are voluntarily—it is industry led—choosing to do this because evidence shows that high-growth assets can boost returns over time, and we are confident that the schemes are now moving in the right direction. But equally, as I say, the pension schemes Bill will have more details in it about how these developments will be monitored over time to make sure that that change is delivered, because in the end what we all want to see is higher levels of investment.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, if the Minister is right that this is an entirely voluntary scheme, why is it necessary for the Government behind the scenes to threaten to make it mandatory?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

Because it is very important that this voluntary commitment delivers the investment that is promised for the UK economy.

UK-US Trade

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 12th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gustafsson (Lab)]

What we see in this relationship with the US is an opportunity to think about the opportunity it presents to all our British industries and how we can open that up to best effect. When we think about farming, the key area of the trade in beef is a real opportunity here. For the first time, the US ban on importing British beef has been lifted, and 13,000 tonnes of British beef can now be exported to the US. That is a real advantage for UK farming.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, it is delightful to hear the Minister extolling the real opportunity that comes from a future deal with the United States. Last week I asked the Front Bench to confirm that none of this would be possible if we were still in the European Union. I was told that was a matter of opinion. Can the Minister confirm that this is a fact?

[Baroness Gustafsson (Lab)]

I will offer up that I agree that that would be a matter of opinion.

National Debt: It’s Time for Tough Decisions (Economic Affairs Committee Report)

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Friday 25th April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in this debate. I add to the congratulations to my noble friend Lord Bridges, as chairman of the committee, and its members for producing this—I was going to say “timely” report, but this debate is some seven months after the report was published and quite a lot has changed in that time.

Short of national security, it addresses the biggest issue facing the country. That we have an advisory speaking time of four minutes tells you everything about the way in which Parliament is increasingly becoming the decorative part of the constitution. We now, apparently, take on huge, unlimited, unknown debt in nationalising industries over a weekend and give powers to civil servants to force people in private companies to do things on pain of being sent to prison if they do not—and Parliament has no say. It is clearly important that we address this issue not just in Parliament but in the country.

The lesson of this report is that our people—the constituents of the Members at the other end of this building, our families—have no idea of the crisis that is facing our country and the threat that it presents to our ability to deliver pensions and important public services.

Even this week we learn that borrowing has turned out to be £15 billion more than expected. In the year to March, as the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, said, we spent £151.9 billion more than we had in income, and we are relying on growth, which we have not seen since 2008, to rescue us from that situation. As the report points out, there are fundamental strategic reasons why we need to tackle this now, and the longer we wait to bite the bullet the bigger the problem will be.

These reasons include the fact that, in the 1980s, we thought we had a peace dividend, but now we realise that we should not have spent that money, but we had committed that expenditure to welfare and other matters. The baby boomers were creating wealth and now they, like me, are a burden on the state in one form or another. The notion that we can finance the triple lock on pensions, however popular it may be, is ridiculous in these circumstances. We need to get the country to understand that and to lower its expectations for the future.

We had growth in world trade. Now we have an—I hesitate to use an adjective—Administration in the United States who are determined to destroy world trade. I assume that we should forgive them, for they know not what they do, but the impact on growth will be enormous. As my noble friend Lord Bridges pointed out, life expectancy is increasing; this and the success of the National Health Service point to further pressures that will be difficult to sustain.

Whenever there is a consensus on anything, one ought to worry. There was a consensus on quantitative easing and on lockdown, and now we are paying the price for that quantitative easing—for printing money on a vast scale. It has left the country more vulnerable to rises in interest rates and more dependent on the kindness of strangers and foreign investors, at a time when the world as a whole is under severe pressure. The latest estimate is that QE will cost us some £150 billion. The decline in the workforce to support all of this is such that, by 2070, there will be one person in work for every person in retirement. That is a huge burden to place on the next generation.

Therefore, this report should be taken seriously by the Government and by the Opposition. We need a consensus in our country, to explain to our people the crisis that we are facing, in the context of the world crisis, and to cut our cloth according to our ability to pay.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Livermore) (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to respond to this debate on the Economic Affairs Committee’s report on the national debt, and a privilege to do so alongside so many distinguished and genuinely expert noble Lords. It has been an incredibly impressive and well-attended debate, and I thank all noble Lords for their contributions.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I am most grateful to the Minister. He is a former member of the Economic Affairs Committee, and he is right to pay tribute to the importance of the subject. Will he make representations to his colleagues who are responsible for the business of the House? It really is not acceptable to have a debate on a committee report such as this on a Friday when people are limited to four minutes to speak.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I absolutely hear what the noble Lord says and will of course pass those comments on.

I congratulate the Economic Affairs Committee on its report and the committee’s chair, the noble Lord, Lord Bridges of Headley, on his excellent opening speech, which achieved the extraordinary feat of summarising in just 12 minutes such a wide-ranging and in-depth report. As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, just mentioned, I had the privilege of serving on the Economic Affairs Committee under his chairmanship, so I know the amount of time and effort that go into producing reports such as this. As the Chancellor did in her response to the committee last November, I thank all members of the committee and the committee staff for producing this thoughtful and considered report.

As the report rightly recognises, and as the noble Lords, Lord Bridges, Lord Razzall, Lord Lamont and Lord Londesborough, highlighted, the UK’s national debt has risen rapidly over recent years, from around 64% of GDP in 2010 to over 98% in August last year, the highest level since the 1960s. Latest figures to the end of March this year show public sector net debt at 95.8% of GDP, which still remains high by recent historical standards. As the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf of Dulwich, said, debt interest payments alone now stand at £105.2 billion this year—that is more than we allocate to defence, the Home Office and justice combined.

The title of the report speaks of “tough decisions” to prevent national debt from being on an unsustainable path. The Government agree. That is why in the Budget last October, we took action to fix the foundations of our economy and repair the public finances, as the noble Lord, Lord Horam, observed. That included repairing—and noble Lords would expect me to say it—the £22 billion black hole in the public finances that we inherited. That meant making difficult choices. They were not easy decisions, but they were the right decisions.

Since the committee’s report was published in September last year, and then the Budget in October, as many noble Lords have rightly said today, the world has changed further significantly. As the noble Lords, Lord Burns and Lord Forsyth, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, observed, new tariff barriers are now disrupting global trade. Borrowing costs have risen in all major economies; volatility in global markets has seen bond yields rise, including in the US; and growth has been downgraded across the world, with the IMF now predicting global growth to be 0.5% weaker than it was expecting as recently as January.

Of course, the UK has not been immune to these challenges. As the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, said, the OBR downgraded the UK’s growth forecast for this year at the Spring Statement, reflecting the worsening global outlook, and earlier this week the IMF did the same. In this context, maintaining sustainable public finances is a shared challenge for major economies right across the globe.

Against this backdrop, the decisions we took in the Budget to fix the foundations look ever more necessary. Imagine if we were now facing this global economic uncertainty with that black hole still in the public finances. What confidence would that have given to the Bank of England to cut interest rates? What signal would that have sent to investors about the stability and resilience of our economy?

The OBR will produce an updated forecast in the autumn, and despite the kind invitation of the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, I will not speculate now on the impacts of recent global events on the fiscal outlook ahead of that. But, as the committee’s report rightly concludes, global instability underlines the need to put debt on a sustainable trajectory and build resilience to future shocks. It also reaffirms the importance of stability as the foundation of our approach.

That is why, as the noble Lord, Lord Bridges of Headley, asked about, in the Spring Statement we again took tough decisions so that we continued to meet our non-negotiable fiscal rules, even when they were tested. That meant restoring in full the headroom against the stability rule, maintaining a surplus of £9.9 billion in 2029-30. It is why we continue to work with international partners, as the Chancellor has done at the IMF spring meetings this week, to make the case for free and open trade.

The noble Lords, Lord Bridges, Lord Burns and Lord Lamont, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Noakes and Lady Cash, all mentioned the importance of economic growth. It is why we are doubling down on our growth agenda of stability, investment and reform, including £13 billion of new capital spending in growth-generating projects announced at the Spring Statement, as well as support, for example, for a third runway at Heathrow and a new Oxford-Cambridge growth corridor, as my noble friend Lord Liddle spoke about.

As the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, mentioned, this week’s IMF report makes it clear that the “landscape has changed” and has downgraded the growth prospects of all G7 nations. However, the UK remains the fastest-growing European G7 country, and the IMF has recognised that this Government are delivering reforms which will drive up long-term growth in the UK. Our upcoming modern industrial strategy, mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and spending review will say more about how we intend to drive long-term sustainable investment and boost productivity.

The committee’s report includes a number of key recommendations, central to which is the committee’s call for an “overhaul” of the UK’s fiscal framework. The Government’s thinking was clearly along very similar lines, and in the Budget in October, we implemented the most significant change to the fiscal framework since 2010—as my noble friend Lord Wood said. I congratulate him on becoming the new chair of the Economic Affairs Committee, and I look forward to working with him.

The new framework we have put in place is designed to support long-term growth, by ensuring the UK’s debt is put on a sustainable path and by prioritising sustainable public investment. First among these reforms are the Government’s non-negotiable fiscal rules, the embodiment of our unwavering commitment to economic stability. The first rule, the stability rule, moves the current Budget into balance, so day-to-day spending is met by revenues, and ensures that the Government will borrow only for investment, which the noble Lord, Lord King of Lothbury, questioned. This rule differs from the previous Government’s borrowing rule, which targeted the overall deficit rather than the current deficit and created a clear incentive to cut investment that is detrimental to growth, as the IMF has made clear.

The noble Lord, Lord Lamont, asked about the primary surplus, which the OBR forecast to move from a deficit of 1.9% of GDP in 2024-25 to a surplus of 1% by 2029-30. The Government understand and respect the argument made by the committee in respect of the fifth year. However, the Government’s position is that targeting the third year of the forecast provides a strong anchor for fiscal sustainability, while providing the necessary flexibility to respond to macroeconomic shocks in the short term.

Our approach is supported by the OECD, which recommended that the UK should

“shorten the time horizon of fiscal rules”.

Similarly, the Institute for Fiscal Studies has made it clear that a fiscal rule targeting debt falling in the fifth year of the forecast is

“more arbitrary and gameable than most”.

The second rule—the investment rule—ensures net financial debt falls as a proportion of GDP. This keeps debt on a sustainable path, while allowing the step change in investment our economy needs.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Wolf of Dulwich and Lady Noakes, and the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, raised the issue of definitions. Net financial debt is an accredited official statistic that has been measured by the Office for National Statistics since 2016 and forecast by the Office for Budget Responsibility since that date. It recognises that government investment delivers returns for taxpayers by counting not just the costs of investment but the benefits.

The noble Lords, Lord Burns and Lord Howell of Guildford, spoke about the importance of investment to economic growth, as did my noble friends Lord Wood, Lord Liddle and Lord Davies of Brixton. As a result of this second fiscal rule, we were able to increase capital investment by over £100 billion in the Budget in October, boosted by an additional £13 billion announced at the Spring Statement. The OBR has confirmed that we are meeting both fiscal rules, and borrowing is forecast to fall in every year of the forecast—from the 5.3% of GDP that we inherited to 2.1% in 2029-30.

In addition to our fiscal rules, the Government’s Charter for Budget Responsibility contains a further serious of measures to improve certainty, transparency and accountability in our fiscal framework.

Spring Statement

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 27th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question and his expertise on this matter. He rightly highlights one of the most important challenges facing this country, which is inactivity. We have far too many people who are economically inactive. We are the only country in which inactivity has not reduced to pre-pandemic levels at this point, and that clearly is not a sustainable situation. A lot of our policies are driven towards ensuring that people can re-enter the labour market, exactly as he says. On speaking to the OBR, I am more than happy to make that point to my colleagues.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister is a man of integrity whom I hold in great regard and respect. So could he just be straight with the House and acknowledge that further cuts in public expenditure or more tax rises are absolutely inevitable, given the impact of the Budget on growth?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his very generous comments; I hold him in equally high regard and have enormous respect for him and his expertise in this matter. I do not think, however, that what he says is in any way inevitable. He talks about the impact of this Budget on growth. As he will know, yesterday the OBR upgraded its growth forecast from 2026 onwards for every single year of the forecast. For the first time, the OBR has recognised one of the major planks of our growth strategy—the planning and infrastructure work we are doing. It says there will be a permanent increase in growth of 0.2% by 2029, and 0.4% over the course of the decade. So the impact on growth of yesterday’s Spring Statement was positive.

The noble Lord talks about the risks. Of course there are risks. The OBR set out various scenarios for various risks, but the planning upgrade shows that there are also upside risks, as it were, in terms of growth. It shows that tax and spending is not the only way of meeting our fiscal rules; we can use growth to meet them, as yesterday’s planning announcement shows. It reduced the deficit by £3 billion in 2029 and as a result, there was growth of 0.2%. So I do not take what the noble Lord says as an absolute. Of course there are risks, and we are planning for those. We have rebuilt the headroom and eliminated the black hole in public finances, as he knows. That is an incredibly important way to set us up for the future.

Closed-Ended Investment Companies: Cost Disclosure

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 24th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her question. I absolutely recognise the key role that the investment company sector plays in the UK’s economy, as she sets out, representing more than 30% of the FTSE 250 and investing in assets that support the Government’s growth agenda. We have listened to industry concerns and, last year, as the noble Baroness said, we legislated to reform retail disclosure. The FCA launched a consultation on an entire replacement regime in December. The Government look forward to seeing the outcomes of that consultation in due course.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, what is going wrong when Parliament—and all credit to the Government for acting on this matter—and the Government pass a statutory instrument and the regulator then puts out a consultation document that provides for reversing what the Government have said should happen and what Parliament has decided? I know that the Minister must be aware of the number of Peers and others who have written on this matter. Surely the regulator is accountable to Parliament and the Government and should behave accordingly.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I absolutely recognise the issues that the noble Lord raises. The Government’s view is that now that they have temporarily removed investment trusts from cost disclosure requirements, implementation is a matter for the industry. I recognise that there are some frustrations among the sector, but we believe that operationalising this legislation is a matter for the industry and the regulator.

Capital Investment and Share Ownership

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 13th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for those words, and I agree with much of what he said. The Government remain absolutely committed to harnessing private investment and restoring growth. We will work in partnership with the private sector while ensuring that projects provide value for money for taxpayers, now and in the future, and that appropriate lessons are learned from the past.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, is not the key to a successful private finance initiative the appropriate transfer of risk? To ensure that happens, it is important to have the people in the Treasury or elsewhere with the necessary skills to negotiate the appropriate contracts. In wishing the Government well in taking this forward, I ask them to give consideration as to how they will achieve that.

Crown Estate Bill [HL]

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Tuesday 4th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 2A. I made a speech yesterday about how important it was that this House got back to normal, listened to debates and responded in a constructive way. I thank the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, for the generous way in which he has responded to the amendment. I certainly would not wish to press it, having had the assurances he has given, which are very much appreciated.

This is not the occasion to make a long speech on the dangers of fish farming, but I draw attention to a report produced in recent weeks by a charity called WildFish, on the uncomfortable reality of farmed salmon. Rather than going through the content of it, I will email it to a number of colleagues who may be interested to read it. It really is quite shocking to see the damage that has been done to wild fish and the food we eat in prodigious quantities, in the form of smoked salmon and other salmon products.

I was grateful to the Minister for underlining the fact that, with wild salmon, we are dealing with an endangered species, one that is essential to the life of the river as a whole and that is an indicator of the quality of our rivers. Freshwater mussels, for example, are unable to breed because they are carried in the gills of wild salmon. This is an important part of the ecology of our rivers.

This was not given much consideration in the other place: there were about two paragraphs on something that is utterly vital to the health and well-being of our people, as well as of the Atlantic salmon, that wonderful fish. But I very much welcome what the Minister said. I hope that the Crown Estate commissioners in England will be able to lean on their colleagues north of the border and suggest to them that they might follow the excellent advice given today by the Minister. I have been puzzling about why the Minister has been so helpful and so accommodating but unable to accept this amendment. I have a feeling that somebody got on the phone from Edinburgh and talked to somebody in the Government—but I have no evidence to support that. I hope that somebody in the Crown Estate commissions south of the border will get on the phone to somebody in Edinburgh.

Some people have said, “Surely this is just about Scotland, because most of the fish farms are in Scotland”. I just point out that the salmon from English rivers have to make their way up north past these salmon farms, which infect those fish with disease and lice as a result of the way in which they are managed. This is killing and removing that beautiful wild Atlantic salmon, which used to be plentiful in English rivers as well as in Scotland.

Without taking more of the House’s time, I am most grateful to the Minister and I hope that the initiatives he has taken will help to prolong the wild Atlantic salmon for years to come.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I welcome the amendment with regard to the salmon and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, on the stand that he has made and the excellent contributions he made at earlier stages on the Bill.

I too welcome the steps that the Minister is taking, but can he explain how the mechanics would work in relation to Scotland, where the Crown Estate is devolved—but also in Wales, where we still have salmon, mercifully, though in small quantities, in rivers such as the Dyfi? In Wales there is always a danger of the salmon suffering, though not as great a danger as there is in relation to fish farms in Scotland. How will the mechanics work with regard to the devolved responsibilities for wildlife and waterways but the non-devolved responsibilities when it comes to the Crown Estate? Perhaps the Minister could clarify that—but otherwise I certainly welcome this as a step in the right direction.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Forsyth for his work on salmon, highlighted in Amendments 2 and 2A, and the Minister for the response he set out at the beginning of these proceedings. As we know, genetically modified escapees infect wild migratory fish with sea lice and disease and interbreed with wild populations. Worldwide, salmon farms have led to significant environmental damage and pose a real risk to other species. We increasingly see recognition of this. Various standards for fish farming have been introduced, and countries such as Australia and Denmark have banned the practice.

We support the sustainable farming of wild Atlantic salmon or other fish species. However, that must not come at the expense of wild populations. We acknowledge that the Bill is relevant to only one existing salmon farm, and that the main problem is in Scotland, which is devolved. Given the comments of my noble friend Lord Forsyth and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, I hope that the Minister will make it clear whether the audit envisaged by the Government will also be relevant to improving things in Scotland, which have been highlighted in our discussions.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Forgive me if this point has already been made, but, on this idea that this is only about Scottish salmon, it is crucial that people understand that all the salmon migrate to the Arctic waters in the far-north North Sea. Therefore, English salmon are having to go past this environmental disaster in Scotland. It is very pertinent to England, and to suggest that there is only one salmon farm in these territorial waters is to miss the point about the most threatened example of the Atlantic salmon, which are those that come from English and Welsh rivers.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I very much take my noble friend’s point. I was thinking, in clarification, that problems in Scotland would be addressed by the measure that the Minister has very helpfully brought forward today, so that this is looked at in the round wherever the salmon may be. I think that my noble friend and I are at one about this.

Government Amendment 1 seeks to restrict the permanent disposal of interest in the seabed. It would ensure that the commissioners may not dispose of the seabed without the consent of the Treasury. In Committee and on Report, noble Lords across the House, including, as has been said, my noble friends Lord Holmes of Richmond and Lady Vere of Norbiton, raised concerns about the disposal of the Crown Estate’s assets and emphasised the duty of the commissioners to protect the seabed. As stewards of our seabed, the Crown Estate and its commissioners bear a profound and unique responsibility to ensure its protection. It is not merely an asset; it is actually the foundation of our oceans and a vital natural resource that supports marine life and holds cultural and ecological significance. In a spirit of compromise, we can accept the Government’s amendment and reformulation.

In conclusion, I warmly thank the Minister for his efforts to meet our concerns on the Bill. That includes what he has not mentioned, the important 25% cap on borrowing that will be in the framework document, and it includes the agreement on pre-appointment scrutiny. I thank all noble Lords across the House—it has been a cross-party effort—who have taken part in the scrutiny of the Bill. I particularly thank my noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean again for his persistence in this matter, and success. Above all, I thank my predecessor and noble friend Lady Vere of Norbiton, and my noble friend Lord Roborough, for their work on the Bill.

UK–China Economic and Financial Strategy Dialogue

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 4th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

Of course, I was not in the room, so I cannot entirely judge exactly whether those issues were raised—but certainly the Chancellor raised important issues of national security. She raised the concerns that the UK Government have about China, and Russia’s illegal war in Ukraine, so the issues that my noble friend raises would have been very much at the forefront of their discussions.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Does the Minister understand that the impact of fining our car companies huge sums for making vehicles that people want to buy, because they are not making sufficient electric cars, has the effect of handing our car industry to the Chinese, who are flooding the market with cheap electric cars—leading to the destruction of jobs throughout the Midlands and elsewhere?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I absolutely understand the point that the noble Lord raises. There are different priorities that we need to balance as we make policy and move forward. As he says, there is the industrial strategy priority of making sure that we have a competitive and thriving car industry in the UK, and there is also the objective of making sure that we achieve our net-zero objectives. Transport is a major component of that, so electric vehicles will play a very important part as we move towards our net-zero targets. Absolutely, we have to balance those objectives, and I am very aware of the issues that the noble Lord raises.