Agriculture Bill

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansarad) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansarad): House of Lords
Tuesday 7th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD) [V]]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and I certainly support her in her concern about air quality. Clause 1(3) of the Bill reads as follows:

“Financial assistance may only be given in relation to England.”


Amendment 66, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, to which I have added my name, adds to that,

“or to facilitate and implement the development of a framework for agricultural co-operation between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland relevant to the purposes in subsection (1).”

In his speech, the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, called for certainty and clarity, and I certainly support him on that.

I have no objection to the Bill being, in the main, limited to England, because Wales passed its own important legislation in 2015 on land management and sustainable development. The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 set out goals for Wales of a very similar nature to Clause 1, although perhaps with a rather wider scope. Goal 2 says that Wales is to be:

“A nation which maintains and enhances a biodiverse natural environment with healthy functioning ecosystems that support social, economic and ecological resilience and the capacity to adapt to change (for example climate change).”


Other goals call for:

“A Wales of cohesive communities”


and

“A Wales of vibrant culture and thriving Welsh language.”


The Act places all public bodies under a duty to carry out these goals, and it sets out the planning framework for achieving them. I have no doubt that there are similar aspirations in legislation in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

In achieving the goals set out in the Welsh Act or the goals for which financial assistance is to be available under this Bill in England, each administration is constrained by the nature of the land: its situation and its climate within its jurisdiction. Soil depth and quality, slope, wind exposure, drought and flooding—as referred to by the noble Earl, Lord Devon—are factors that cannot be changed by government decree.

As the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, pointed out, most of Wales is a less favoured area. Indeed, there is only one area of grade 1 land in the whole of Wales. It is some 400 acres around the village of Holt on the edge of the River Dee and the English border—some three miles from where I live. I do not have the happiest memories, I can tell your Lordships, of picking strawberries for two and sixpence an hour there as a schoolboy, with my nose pressed closely into grade 1 land.

Amendment 78, which I support, seeks to add to the goals for England set out in Section 1 an explicit reference to maintaining support for hill farms and other marginal land previously designated as less favoured areas. I support that amendment because it encompasses a large part of the agricultural industry in Wales.

However, suppose a conflict arises as to the level of support a Welsh hill farmer receives as compared to that of the Yorkshire farmer of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh. This could lead to significant competitive advantage or disadvantage in the United Kingdom single market. Levels of support between the four nations are bound to diverge. I referred to this issue at Second Reading, where the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, said that

“I am struck by the absence of any hint of common frameworks for the devolved Administrations.”—[Official Report, 10/6/20; col. 1802.]

He asked the Minister to indicate progress in the area of agriculture.

A paper published a year ago by the Cabinet Office, entitled An Update on Progress in Common Frameworks, contained this paragraph:

“The UK Internal Market. The UK Government continues to seek development of a shared approach to the UK Internal Market with the devolved administrations, and, alongside the work being undertaken by policy teams, we are considering how to manage internal market issues across framework areas.”


The paper contained an extensive illustration of a framework agreement, but in the field of hazardous waste. It describes, in considerable detail, the policy area, the scope of the framework agreement, an outline of the legislation required, how decisions are to be made, the roles and responsibilities of each party, dispute resolution and many other sections.

Seeing that it is government policy to abandon the common agricultural policy in six months’ time, I think we are entitled to know where we are and to have the questions that we put forward at Second Reading answered. I am with my noble friend Lord Greaves; we do not want to have an agricultural industry, particularly in the Pennines or in Wales, that is paid to mow the grass, clip the hedges and mend the stone walls, while we get our lamb from New Zealand, our chlorinated chicken from the United States, our beef from Brazil and our pork from the Netherlands. We want a vibrant countryside producing food—and healthy food at that—short supply lines, local produce for local people and an internal market that reflects the diversity of our farming but allows the four nations fair and competitive markets.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op) [V]]

My Lords, I intend to be brief, as requested. I am very proud to be a member of the excellent organisation Peers for the Planet, set up by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and a number of other colleagues. I want to see a much more sustainable farming system that incorporates a good balance between food production on the one hand and environmental protection on the other.

My main aim today is to support Amendments 1 and 74, moved so well by the noble Earl, Lord Dundee—I am glad we were able to get back in touch with him after that technical problem. These amendments will ensure that the Government must provide the financial resources necessary to support farmers to change their practices and to make these aims possible.

I believe that there should not be just an opt-in button for the Government when providing financial assistance to farmers, with the vital support that they need. With major changes expected in how we farm and utilise the surrounding land to protect wider biodiversity and provide a more inclusive system—one that is for the wider public benefit—the Government must provide the necessary financial assistance to support these infrastructural changes.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and others have mentioned ELMS—the environmental land management scheme—which is of course a central part of the Bill. It needs to be effective and attractive for farmers, while being deliverable by the Government. There therefore needs to be much greater support from the Government, not only in funding for equipment but in supporting new technologies, skills development and providing advice on signing up for new schemes.

Finally, as one of the large number of Scottish Peers I am glad to see speaking in today’s debate, I agree wholeheartedly with the noble Lords, Lord Bruce of Bennachie and Lord Wigley, and others. I too am keen to highlight the need for strong co-operation among all four nations of the United Kingdom. We saw the recently published report of the Constitution Committee highlighting the concerns about relations between the UK and the devolved Administrations. Disputes between the UK Government and the devolved nations are in danger of becoming increasingly likely after Brexit. Can the Minister, in summing up on this debate, give the Committee an indication of what work the Government are doing to proactively and effectively engage with the home nations to ensure that, where there are areas of devolved competence, there is as much co-operation as possible?

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab) [V]]

I speak in support of Amendment 66, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. If the UK had not been in the EU in 1997 when it started along the road to devolution, it would have been obliged to give more thought to the relationship between the four nations. As it was, EU regulations ensured common standards across a range of areas so that while agriculture was a devolved power in Scotland, most of the rules came from Europe. If the UK had not been a member of the EU when devising a system of devolution, there would have had to be much closer consideration of how decisions would be made on areas of common interest that cross territorial divides. That process would inevitably have resulted in changes to how Westminster interacted with the devolved Administrations and we may well have developed a more federal system of government.

However, we are where we are. In devising a way of recognising the rights and responsibilities of the four parts of the UK, there should be an acceptance that each Administration has parity of esteem. This will not be easily achieved when there is hostility, suspicion and concerns about Westminster power grabs. Whatever the reason for the lack of progress on common frameworks, the impact on the industry has been uncertainty, insecurity and concern for the future. For the politicians, it could further damage the prospect of ongoing co-operation, just at a time when that is vital for agriculture and other industries. However, I am pleased that the Minister will be moving an amendment that may alleviate some of the objections from the Scottish Government, who claim that the powers being given to the Secretary of State ought to require the consent of Scottish Ministers.

It is of course Northern Ireland that has been made integral to the withdrawal process. Just last week, your Lordships’ EU Energy and Environment Sub-Committee completed a short inquiry on agri-food and the Northern Ireland protocol. The overwhelming view of those awaiting details of how the protocol will affect them was concern about the lack of meaningful government engagement. The fear is that any changes in standards will impact on the viability of Northern Ireland agriculture. There is real concern that the Bill does not provide sufficient safeguards.

If it is the case that we need a UK-wide internal market to replace the EU internal market, we have to work urgently to establish its rules of operation. It may have to involve a four-way arrangement, with each Administration having a right of veto. It cannot be the UK Government acting as a player in the discussions and then as final arbiter of the outcome. I hope that the Minister will take on board the issue of co-operation that the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has raised with his amendment and that we can work for co-operation between the nations of the UK.

Agriculture: Dairy Prices

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 28th April 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

The Minister, Lord Gardiner of Kimble. Lord Gardiner? We have no Minister. Is the Whip able to answer this Question?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Perhaps the Whip can explain why there is no Minister.

National Biodiversity Network Report

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 4th November 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I have been very lucky to work with Natural England—it does a great job, and I recently saw Tony Juniper. The United Kingdom’s contribution to international climate finance will double to £11.6 billion from 2021-25, a proportion of which will be for nature-based solutions. Yes, we have to work in this country, but turning around what the noble Baroness and the State of Nature talk about is a global problem. Our global spending is growing very considerably indeed.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned our overseas territories in his Answer. My friends in the Falkland Islands tell me that if Brexit goes ahead, their economy will be devastated. In the unfortunate event of the return of a Tory Government, what will the Minister and his colleagues do about that?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I shall be very pleased indeed if there is a return of a Conservative Government because we will put the environment four-square in the centre in this country, in our overseas territories and globally. That is one of the prime responsibilities of government. We have an emergency. I have talked about the noble Lord shaking his noble head before. He asked what a Tory Government will do about it. There is a great story in the Falklands. Our approach in dealing with rats on South Georgia has meant that pipits and pintails are back in profusion. Dealing with invasive species is one of the most important things. Tourism to that great set of islands is very important.

Common Fisheries Policy and Animals (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 4th November 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

I have a question for the Minister in relation to this, whether or not it came up in the Grand Committee. How will this be dealt with in the period now? We are dissolving tomorrow. Is this the final approval of it? How will it be affected by whether the proposals put forward by the various parties go ahead—if the Conservative Party were to win the election, if the Labour Party were to win, or if, as Ms Swinson keeps telling us, the Liberal Democrats were to win and we were to have an immediate revocation of Article 50? What would be the effect on these and the other, similar regulations?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

If the noble Lord had joined us in the Moses Room, he would have understood that these regulations are to ensure that our statute book is up to date on leaving. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, was in the Moses Room. This instrument was to ensure that a number of changes coming from the EU are incorporated. Our purpose is to ensure that we have the most up-to-date statute book, and we are using the opportunity of every scenario. The noble Baroness and other Members of your Lordships’ House have been engaged in considering these statutory instruments precisely to ensure—in this case on common fisheries, but also on animals and transportation—that any changes that had taken place up to the current time from the EU, the Commission, were incorporated. That was the matter at hand.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I apologise for not having been able to be there in October. I was looking after the interests of the Minister and other Members of this House at the meeting of the Council for Democratic Elections in Venice. As it happens, we were discussing very interesting things such as foreign interference in our elections—the kind of matter we were talking about in the PNQ earlier. I can tell noble Lords from that meeting in Venice that there is increasing concern about foreign—not just Russian, but particularly Russian —interference in our elections. That is why I was not here; we cannot be in two places at once.

I do not think the Minister has answered the question about how we are going to deal with a plethora of regulations—and there is a plethora; I am not sure what the latest figure is for how many hundreds of regulations we have considered—in the three different scenarios. I understand that the Government’s proposal is to leave the European Union one way or another—do or die, in a ditch, or whatever—by the end of January; I think that is the latest date. A Labour Government will look again at renegotiation and put it back to the people. If the Liberal Democrats were to win the election, Ms Swinson were to become Prime Minister and Article 50 were to be revoked, what happens to these regulations? How do we deal with them? What are the prospects for further consideration when we come back?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Speaking on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government, obviously I hope there will be the return of a Conservative Government, but the noble Lord is absolutely right that all sorts of different scenarios are possible. Our task with this statutory instrument was to have reassurance on our statute book and certainty that, whenever we left, the statute book was complete with everything that the European Commission and the Union had changed.

As much as I would enjoy having a discussion about would happen if the noble Lord’s party or the Liberal Democrats win the general election, all I can say is that we did a useful piece of work in the Moses Room to ensure that the correct statutory instruments were in place. The changes were all technical and on operability points, so there are no policy changes at all. It has the consent of the devolved Administrations. They are technical, but they went through all the required prisms.

Unless your Lordships wish it, I do not think there is a great deal of purpose in discussing the “might be” scenarios of what will come out of the general election. The truth is that none of us has a vote. It will be for the electorate to decide what they want in taking the matter forward. I am delighted that this statutory instrument has had this embellishment, because it is a very technical instrument, which we dealt with in the Moses Room. All I can say is that, yes, the result of the general election will have an impact on all these matters and legislation, and on the Queen’s Speech for the new Parliament.

This afternoon, I cannot gaze into a crystal ball to help the noble Lord. All I know is that, if there is a return of the Conservative Government, we have a deal and we will put it to Parliament. All the legislation discussed earlier will come forward, so we will have proper oversight. Most importantly, the discussions that we had on, I have to say, probably over 180 statutory instruments in the Defra family, were precisely so that we had certainty about keeping up with up-to-date changes from the EU—and yes, we made one or two amendments because of typographical errors and so on, which I always regret.

I think that is where I have to leave it. The noble Lord is going into a much wider political discussion about what will happen to the statute book after a general election. The electorate might help us with that.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I have just one further point to raise. I thank the Minister; as always, he is really helpful. He is a Minister who knows his brief extremely well and answers questions. As he pointed out, none of us has a vote in the upcoming election—something that, by the way, needs to be sorted as quickly as possible. It cannot be done by the next election, but it had better be done by the one after that.

The Minister has very helpfully answered a question for me: there were 180 instruments from Defra alone, and hundreds more from all the other departments. The cost of these hundreds and hundreds of regulations —using the time of these wonderful civil servants and everyone else involved, and our own time—has to be added to the hundreds of millions of pounds spent on “Get Ready for Brexit: a total waste of money preparing for 31 October—“do or die”, “die in a ditch”, or whatever other phrases were used by the Prime Minister. Hundreds of millions of pounds was spent hiring ferries, twice; once from a ferry company that did not have any ferries and, more recently, very cleverly, from a ferry company that did have ferries. But now they have to be paid, and we do not need the ferries any more. Hundreds of millions of pounds have been wasted by the Government. That is the legacy we face.

The sooner that the British people realise what the Tories are up to, the more likely it is that—with no disrespect to the Minister, who I praised earlier as being an exceptional Minister—this will be, if not his last, his second-last day at the government Dispatch Box.

Motion agreed.

Water: Bills and Executive Remuneration

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, my noble friend has highlighted an issue that I think we need to hear more of, particularly as we look at climate change and increasing population. We need to secure more water transfers between water companies, which will build resilience and reduce the cost of meeting future demand. So I am very pleased with what is going on already, but the water companies need to work more and we need to increase our infrastructure.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is one part of this country, the United Kingdom, where we do not have any of these problems of highly paid water executives, because under successive Governments of different parties, water has remained in public ownership—and that is Scotland?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Well, your Lordships know that I am very keen on Scotland, but I entirely disagree with the noble Lord about privatisation.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Come to Scotland!

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Privatisation has permitted us £140 billion. There are so many examples of what the investment was before privatisation. The noble Lord shakes his noble head, but privatisation has made a very considerable difference to water quality, the quality of our beaches and the reduction in water pollution. However, there is more to do.

Footpaths

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Thursday 17th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, we undoubtedly have the best network of footpaths in the countryside of any country in the world. Does the Minister agree that the work of all the volunteers for the Ramblers on the Big Pathwatch campaign and survey has been extremely valuable? However, the survey showed that one-third of the network was in need of improvement and that 10% of the footpaths surveyed were impossible to use because of barbed wire, obstructions, locked gates—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Japanese knotweed.

[Lord Greaves]

I am not sure about Japanese knotweed on public footpaths, although no doubt Ramblers will report it if it is there. I am not sure that I am supposed to take interventions on Questions, either.

Also, there are issues with signposts that either do not exist or point in the wrong direction, as well as paths that become quagmires. The footpath network is resilient but there are increasing signs of problems in many areas. What are the Government doing about it?

Japanese Knotweed

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I must be clear: this plant has been in the country since the 19th century and is very widespread—unfortunately, we sent it from Kew up to Edinburgh, thinking it was interesting. The prospect of eradicating every bit of Japanese knotweed is, alas, not viable at the moment but we hope the psyllid will, if successful, weaken the plant. That is the whole purpose of it. Certainly, where we have had species such as the Asian hornet, we acted immediately to deal with it. There are a number of species on the list that we want to eradicate immediately but I am afraid that a plant such as Japanese knotweed has been here rather too long.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

I thought one of the Bishops might have come in on this Question to help us. However, since we have experts such as the noble Baroness, Lady Sharples, and the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, in the House, have the Government thought of appointing one of them as a knotweed tsar to get rid of all this?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My noble friend would make an excellent tsarina. The noble Lord will be pleased to hear that we constantly update officials in the Scottish Government because, as I say, this occurs across our nation. We need to deal with it, which is why where local action groups work together, they have been successful. They use herbicides, injections, glyphosate and all sorts of things, and they are making a difference where they want to.

Insurance: Flood Risk Areas

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

I am not sure about words of one syllable, my Lords. Negotiations, and I know that some noble Lords opposite are very experienced in them, are very complex things, and this is a particularly complicated subject. We are working on it. The letter from the ABI is a good demonstration that we are close to a solution.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, how are the Scottish Government involved in these discussions, since the insurance industry stretches throughout the United Kingdom?

[Lord De Mauley]

I absolutely agree with the noble Lord that this problem affects the whole of the United Kingdom. The devolved Administrations are closely involved in the discussions.

Horsemeat

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Thursday 14th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

That is an important question. The answer is yes. The FSA has advised that 1% is a level of evidence at which it can take action. This is a temporary level as we undertake urgent scientific work to set the most appropriate threshold. This is the level at which the FSA can be confident that the results are reliable for enforcement purposes.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, what discussions has the department had with the devolved Administrations, and what has been their outcome?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, there are ongoing, intense discussions with the devolved Administrations, particularly Northern Ireland. It is too early to say what the outcome will be, but the noble Lord can rest assured that we will be in close touch, not only with the devolved Administrations but, of course, with our colleagues all across the EU, as I indicated earlier.

Forestry

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

That is certainly the intention.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Has the Minister ever experienced any conflict of interest by being both a Defra Minister and a woodland owner?

[Lord De Mauley]

Yes, my Lords, that it is why forestry is not within my personal policy brief.