Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Baroness Hollins

Wednesday 25th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I am not sure that I am in a position to give assurance on precise figures and percentages. I am giving a general assurance that that factor will be looked at as part of the financial hardship consideration.

[Baroness Hollins]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his detailed and careful reply, which contained a number of reassurances. Many of the reforms proposed in the Bill are primarily about changing behaviour rather than reducing expenditure. On the issue of overpayments, it is difficult to argue that the changes to the procedures for repayment fall into the former category. The primary motivations, I understand, are ones of principle and finance.

Until we can be sure that when things go wrong the individual judgment of officials does not subject claimants who have been overpaid to undue punishments, we need clear safeguards. The Minister has tried to reassure the House that those safeguards will be in place. I am reassured by his comments that recovery will not cause hardship and by his reminding us that the DWP would be open to challenge or to judicial review. With great power comes great responsibility, and many Members may believe, like me, that when the DWP alone is at fault the DWP alone should take the hit, and that this ought to be clear in legislation.

However, I am reassured by the Minister’s comments and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Baroness Hollins

Tuesday 17th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to place on record the value that this Government place on carers and their work. Although times are difficult, I have managed to redesign the universal credit so that we are ameliorating the £100 cliff edge, as carers do some earning, that they dislike so much. I hope that that is a token, even in these difficult times, of how much we value carers.

The second thing I would like to mention is more than a token. I was really pleased to be able to announce before Report that both elements of PIP will be a gateway for the receipt of carer’s allowance. I am grateful for the very detailed and knowledgeable debate that we had on this matter. We have had a lot of very thoughtful and clever representations from groups such as Carers UK, which we have taken very seriously indeed. I know that our announcement has been very warmly welcomed by various groups.

There is some concern about how the decision is to be enacted. That is clearly what is driving the amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. I want to give an absolute assurance on this. We will use the powers under Clause 90 of the Bill to make the necessary change. We will bring forward, in due course, the appropriate secondary legislation to amend Section 70 of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 and put the position beyond doubt by making clear that people will be able to access carer’s allowance from both rates of the daily living component of the PIP. That is how we are planning to lock that position down, and it is a commitment that I make here and now to carers in this country. We have listened to the concerns from Peers and the carers’ lobby.

The noble Baroness asked how many carers would be affected. We expect to undertake an impact analysis as we get to regulations. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, spoke about large numbers being affected. That is a slightly brusque assumption given that carers currently on the lowest rate would not anyway be passported. We are talking about the top two rates. The assumption of a 20 per cent cut in that budget does not marry up. It is not a cut on where we are today; it is a cut on where we would be at the end of this Parliament. We have to await the impact analysis before we can know the real figures.

On the basis of the reassurances that I have provided, I hope that the noble Baroness will not press her amendments.

[Baroness Hollins]

My Lords, I am indeed reassured to hear the Minister’s response, in particular that an impact analysis will be done as the regulations are prepared. I accept the Minister’s assurance that the passporting arrangements will be locked down. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Baroness Hollins

Wednesday 14th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, Amendments 32A and 34A seek to use primary legislation to exclude criminal injuries compensation from the capital test for universal credit. The existing benefit system does not have a specific disregard for criminal injuries compensation. However, such payments will usually fall under the rules governing personal injury payments where they relate to physical or psychological injuries suffered by the claimant. As indicated in the illustrative draft regulations on capital and income, shared with noble Lords in September, we intend to replicate these personal injury payment provisions in the universal credit regulations. I hope that that answers the question of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie.

Personal injury payments are disregarded in the current benefit system for a period of 52 weeks from the date that they are paid. Even after that period, remaining capital will continue to be disregarded if it is placed in a trust, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, indicated. This rule allows us to distinguish the personal injuries payment from other savings. If the payment is not separated by placing it into a trust, it becomes increasingly difficult to identify the source of the capital as time goes by. Ultimately, any capital test must consider the balance in a claimant’s account, and over time it becomes impossible to say whether it is from one source or another unless it is held in a different form. That is the reason for the way that this is structured.

The current arrangements are long-standing, and we are not aware of significant practical problems with their use. In any case, the details of capital disregards are a matter we will address in the universal credit regulations. If there are particular problems, we will have a further opportunity to consider them when drafting regulations, and I will bear in mind the points the noble Baroness has made.

In answer to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, I agree that the compensation recovery scheme does not apply to criminal injuries compensation.

I hope I have made clear why the Government cannot support Amendments 32A and 34A. I hope the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Hollins]

Given the lateness of the hour, I will withdraw my amendment. I will study very carefully what the Minister said to make sure that I understand it. I think what he is basically saying is that it should be possible to protect that capital for 52 weeks, and I understand the point, but it is a little bit more complicated than that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Baroness Hollins

Wednesday 16th November 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hollins]

My Lords, the purpose of this amendment is to seek clarity from the Government about future eligibility for carers’ allowance. I know that there has been earlier discussion about passporting with respect to carers’ allowance and I apologise if there has been any discussion of it today. Unfortunately, I have had to attend to amendments on the Health and Social Care Bill and I have not been able to listen to earlier parts of the debate today.

Of the 6 million carers in the UK, 72 per cent of them are financially worse off because of their decision to become carers. The high living costs that illness and disability bring, coupled with the loss of earnings, result in a heavy financial burden on most carers. More than half said that they were in debt as a result of caring and two- thirds said that they used their own income to pay for the care of the person they looked after. Given that the unpaid work they do contributes an estimated £119 billion to the United Kingdom, we ought to do more to help carers.

If I might give the Committee an example, Tony gave up work to care for his wife Laura, who is partially blind and has memory problems following a car accident. They have two young children. Laura needs Tony to be there to help her to wash, dress and use the toilet and she struggles to prepare food on her own. Tony would love to go back to work but does not wish to leave Laura on her own during the day. Tony claims carers’ allowance and Laura receives the middle-rate care component of disability living allowance. The family has had support from social services cut, because their council has just raised its eligibility criteria to critical and Laura has been assessed as having only substantial needs, not critical needs. If, following assessment for the new PIP, Laura received the standard rate of the PIP daily living component, and if this did not provide a gateway to carers’ allowance for Tony, the family would stand to lose more than £55 a week, or £222 a month. Tony would have lost his only income and would be forced to claim jobseeker’s allowance, even though he knows he cannot work because of the care and support his family need.

Under the current system, eligibility for carers’ allowance is established through the middle or higher rate care components of the disability living allowance. The transfer from disability living allowance will see these three rates—lower, middle and higher—replaced by only two under the personal independence payment. Although we know that PIP will be used as the gateway for carers’ allowance, the Welfare Reform Bill currently does not make clear how claimants currently claiming through DLA will be categorised. It is disappointing at this late stage of the Bill’s progress that such information remains unavailable.

Many families rely on DLA to cover basic living costs, additional care and support, transport, aids and adaptations, as has been extensively debated here. To put this help at risk because of a lack of clarity is unforgivable. I hope that the amendment will give us an opportunity to scrutinise this area of the Bill, particularly in regard to carers’ allowance and its relationship to personal independence payments.

Were it to be decided that entitlement to carers’ allowance would be established only through the enhanced rate of personal independence payment, it would be reasonable to assume that thousands of carers would no longer be eligible for carers’ allowance. It is likely that the Government’s proposed cut of 20 per cent to the budget for DLA will have an impact on claimants of carers’ allowance because the benefits received by the person they care for will be affected, and setting the eligibility rate at enhanced only will amplify the effect.

It is therefore of great importance to ensure that those who are on the middle or higher-rate care components at present continue to receive benefits, regardless of how they will be classified under the new system. We cannot allow thousands of carers to lose their benefits because of these changes. We owe it to carers not only to clarify what is currently unclear but to guarantee that those receiving benefits at the moment will not have them taken away under the new classification—a kind of double whammy.

A statement from the Government confirming which of the daily living component levels will passport to carers’ allowance would be welcome, and a commitment to ensuring that both levels of the PIP daily living component will act as gateways to carers’ allowance eligibility even more so. I beg to move.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, perhaps I might again interpose slightly out of order in the interests of clarity. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, for tabling the amendment and for making some valid points. I revert to my opening comments today on the timing of the information. We aim to get more information on the passporting arrangements from PIP to carers’ allowance prior to the start of the Report stage, which I hope will satisfy the request. I should add that we are sympathetic to the position of carers—which I hope is recognisable code—and the Government recognise the important role that people with caring responsibilities have in our society. We are continuing to listen very carefully to the contributions that we receive.

I cannot at this stage add anything further. I therefore urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment, which clearly we will be able to consider in more detail in a little while.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, as I have tried to explain, we will introduce PIP from the bottom up. We will try to find the people who need the money and there will be winners and losers in that process. In particular, the PIP process is far more understanding of mental health issues. I do not think looking at absolute numbers undermines the principles of how you create the universal credit. It does not undermine our considerations of the principles of the universal credit but we need to understand the impact of PIP and the carers’ allowance in relation to it. We shall have that information in time and debate it in great depth. I am committing to providing those figures at the right time. It is not a trivial but a hard commitment. The timing has been produced under pressure from the Committee and I hope that it is accepted in the spirit with which it has been obtained.

[Baroness Hollins]

My Lords, I know that the Minister is genuinely concerned about carers and I take some comfort from the code carefully contained in his earlier response. Carers UK and other groups representing carers are concerned, but they are also very aware and advocate for a better deal for carers. For a long time carers have not had enough financial and other support and it is important that someone should speak up for them in this respect.

I look forward with great interest to further developments. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Baroness Hollins

Monday 14th November 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, clearly an enormous amount of work has been done on this within both government and consumer organisations. When we refine the criteria—which is the process that we are going through—we look at all those aspects to ensure that we focus the money on where it will have most effect in supporting people to live independent lives.

On the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, on how we will assess people, the version of criteria that we published on Friday looked at a range of key, everyday activities. The main question is to look at what support an individual needs. It is much more holistic than the test described by my noble friend Lord Newton of how to boil a kettle. Our testing results through the summer demonstrated that our approach is both reliable and valid. On the question raised on the cost of getting evidence from GPs, we are discussing PIP plans with the Department of Health but have not yet made any estimate of the specific costs of obtaining evidence from GPs. However, evidence gathering will be a critical part of PIP and we recognise that disabled people will want to present information from a wide range of sources, not just GPs. We will ensure that they are able to do this.

Let me pick up the point made by the noble Baroness on the 652,000 so-called losers. That assumes that all the people currently receiving the lowest rate of DLA care would receive nothing under the PIP. We have not yet completed the detailed assessment of the impact of our changes on the current DLA caseload, and will do that on Report. It is likely that we will see significant movement in the new benefit. I suspect that some people will receive more support because of the improved assessment; some will receive broadly the same; some will receive less; and some will leave benefit altogether. The most important thing is that these results should accurately reflect the level of need of the individuals concerned so that the money will go where it is most needed. From what we have seen so far, the draft assessment is working to achieve this.

In the proposed criteria we have demonstrated that we have not simply removed the lowest rate of DLA. The concepts of needing assistance and how individuals prepare food, as described by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, are very much part of the criteria. We are aiming to ensure that passports to provisions elsewhere, such as vehicle excise duty exemption and the blue badge scheme, continue. Where necessary, we are working with other government departments and the devolved Administrations to ensure that the new PIP arrangements match closely their arrangements to ensure continued support for disabled people. It is our intention that the personal independence payment will provide part of the gateway for receipt of carer’s allowance in the way that DLA currently does. I have dealt with the timing issue.

In conclusion, let me assure the noble Baroness that our proposals to move to a two-tier daily living component is not about reducing support or cutting costs. It is a principled move that will help us deliver a benefit that will focus on those least able to participate. It will do that in a way that will make it fairer, clearer for everyone to understand, simpler to administer, and affordable and sustainable into the future. The Government have spent a considerable time developing and consulting on the provisions that the noble Baroness wishes to amend. Our view is that they are the right way to progress our aims. I therefore cannot support the amendment and I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw it.

[Baroness Hollins]

My Lords, the second draft of the assessment regulations is very interesting but it does not help in the consideration of what we are talking about. It does not tell us the threshold, so we cannot assess how many points you would need in order to reach a level of having a limited ability to carry out daily living activities and so on. Will the Minister explain how we could use these to judge what he has just been talking about?

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Baroness Hollins

Monday 24th October 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Freud]

The noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, makes a point, which we have actually discussed in the Chamber in the past. She knows my concern about this. I think that the Atos and WCA process is genuinely improving now, with the changes that have been made. A lot of the stories that we have are of the system as it was, unreformed. It is gradually improving. That is not to say that it is now perfect—that is not my claim. We are committed to getting the process right, and we inherited that process. I know the concerns that there are, seeing them at first hand in many cases. It is a terrible balance between abandoning people and saying, “You’re out of the economic life of this country” and then trying to pull them in in a coherent way. Getting that balance right, as all noble Lords here today understand, is complicated and a path that we are moving down. But I am determined that we will get to a position where we are doing it with the right balance.

[Baroness Hollins]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response, particularly for saying that he is going to consider these amendments deeply as we move towards implementation. There were three things that the amendments were trying to do. One was to try to ensure that evidence from claimants’ own health professionals would be properly taken into account at an early enough stage to prevent some of the distress that is currently affecting some claimants. The second one was about reasonable adjustments, which are a requirement under the law but are perhaps not fully understood. It is about an individualised approach, is it not? The third one was ensuring that the impact of a health condition on a candidate’s ability to comply was properly assessed and understood. It is not about asking for a rigid list of things in the claimant commitment. What it is really about is asking for joined-up work between different departments with different responsibilities and joined-up care for people with health conditions with the NHS and the DWP. There is no reason why Jobcentre Plus staff and existing specialist NHS staff could not share some information for the benefit of the claimant, both at the assessment stage and during their progression into work, which is what we would all like to see.

Although decision makers are required to take information into account, there is evidence that they are not always doing that. Yes, of course people can appeal, but appeals are very distressing, not just for the individual but also for their families. These amendments were intended to make the system work better both for claimants, so that they are more likely to succeed, but also because it is much more satisfying for staff to work in a system that they know is working fairly. So I am hoping that the Minister will find a way to ensure that the spirit of the amendment is taken on board. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Baroness Hollins

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Freud]

I will repeat the two points. The first point is exactly the issue that we want to deal with and the one that the foster community is worried about—the voids area. That is something that we are aiming to address. My response to the second point was, and remains, that this is where we would expect discretionary housing payments to come into play. It is exactly the complex set of judgments that need to be made, and local authorities are best placed to make them.

[Baroness Hollins]

I apologise for this, but I think that the Minister said that the same mortgage rates would be applicable as for everybody else. From my understanding, in the example that I gave of Theo, the mortgage rates had changed from the previous preferential rates, leading to a gap in the costs of his housing that he cannot meet.