Pension Schemes Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 19th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con)]

My Lords, these amendments put the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, not just ahead but well ahead—because he and other noble Lords expressed concern in Committee about the Bill’s approach to regulation. With many regulations subject to negative resolution, they felt that they would not be subject to adequate scrutiny. Noble Lords will remember that I responded that I would reflect on that point, and the amendments before us now are a result of that reflection.

We accept that the first regulations made under several of the powers in the Bill could be made under the affirmative resolution procedure to allow for scrutiny via parliamentary debate. After the first set of regulations introducing the authorisation regime has been brought into force, subsequent amendments to those regulations are likely to be relatively minor and, as a result, we do not think that affirmative resolution at that stage would be appropriate. Parliament will, of course, have the opportunity under the negative resolution procedure to require a debate on any such regulations if there is concern.

The provisions that will be subject to affirmative resolution as a result of these amendments represent significant aspects of the authorisation regime, including the fit and proper person test, financial sustainability, systems and processes, continuity strategy and significant events.

I owe the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, a proper exposition of the process of how we get to these regulations. Currently there is an engagement process with stakeholders to develop the detailed policy. We anticipate that that and an initial consultation to inform the regulations will take place in the autumn of 2017. That will be followed by formal consultation on the draft regulations. Our intention is to lay the regulations over the summer period and commence them during October 2018.

I will now touch briefly on the actual provisions that are covered. Clause 7 relates to the need for individuals involved in the scheme to be fit and proper people. Subsection (4)(a) allows the Secretary of State to make regulations requiring the regulator to take into account certain matters when assessing whether a person is a fit and proper person to act in a particular capacity. Clauses 8 and 9 relate to the financial sustainability of a master trust. Clause 8 requires that the regulator must be satisfied that the business strategy relating to the scheme is sound and that the scheme has sufficient resources to meet certain costs. The power in Clause 8(4) is to enable regulations to set out matters that the regulator must take into account when deciding whether it is satisfied on these matters. Clause 9 relates to the requirement for a scheme strategist to produce a business plan, and the power in Clause 9(2) allows the Secretary of State to set out what information should be included.

Clause 11 makes provision for systems and processes. It includes a regulation-making power to require the Pensions Regulator to take into account specified matters when deciding whether it is satisfied that the systems and processes adopted by schemes are sufficient to ensure that they are run effectively. Clause 12 sets out the requirement for the scheme strategist to prepare the continuity strategy. The powers in subsections (5) and (6) allow the Secretary of State to determine the format in which the level of charges should be set out. Clause 16 puts a duty on specified persons involved in running an authorised master trust scheme to notify the regulator when they become aware that a “significant event” has occurred.

This group of amendments also includes one further amendment which inserts a power to make consequential amendments to other legislation, including primary legislation. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, with whom I have discussed this amendment, for allowing me to bring it forward at what I acknowledge is a late stage. It is a standard power that we have in other pensions legislation, and I really must repeat my apologies that it was not in place at the introduction. The power will be narrow in scope. It is limited to amendments that are consequential to allow for necessary technical fixes and will apply only to existing legislation and legislation passed in this Session.

While we have made every effort to identify and make the necessary consequential amendments in the Bill, pensions legislation, as I suspect noble Lords will acknowledge, is very complex and technical. Similar powers were included in the Pension Schemes Act 2015 and the Pensions Act 2014. The power is used to ensure that the legislation works as intended. For instance, the power in the Pensions Act 2014 was used to ensure that the new state pension was taken into account when setting the automatic enrolment earnings threshold. As was the case in these Acts, this power will also be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure when used to amend primary legislation.

After the concerns expressed in Committee, I hope that these proposed amendments have met noble Lords’ concerns that the crucial aspects of the regime will have appropriate scrutiny. I also hope that I have explained why the amendment to Clause 37 is necessary in order to ensure that the legislation works as it should. I will once again repeat my thanks to noble Lords for bearing with me in bringing forward these amendments at this stage, and I trust that I have explained the position properly and given the appropriate level of reassurance. I beg to move.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, obviously I welcome the Minister’s amendments, which are a very appropriate response to our discussions in Committee. The compromise that he has struck is useful—and not just in these circumstances. It is actually not a bad idea for legislation to start adopting some of these things because it might avoid some of the tensions we have seen in the past in social security legislation in terms of trying to get access to the secondary legislation. Taking the first regulations under the affirmative procedure is an excellent way out of the problem we saw in Committee.

The timetable that the Minister has laid out is very reassuring and gives people an idea of what to expect in terms of the consultation and the timeframe available. I understand Amendment 24. I know that such provision has been used previously in pensions legislation, but Ministers at the Dispatch Box will be well advised to note that this clause will be particularly carefully looked at not just by the House committees that scrutinise these matters but by the usual suspects on the Back Benches who crawl over the fine print of these things. If the use of such procedure is deemed to be inappropriate, the negative procedure is always available to us to make sure that there is no abuse of the powers taken under Amendment 24. Otherwise, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and the rest of us are doing quite well so far. I hope that we can keep up this strike rate for the rest of Report.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the introduction of these amendments, which are very welcome. He has been true to his word and we thank him for taking us through the process of dealing with the regulations. One of our criticisms of the Bill was the plethora of regulation-making powers therein contained without the prospect of sight of even drafts of such regulations by the time we had to conclude our deliberations.

It was for this reason that we sought to strengthen the parliamentary process for this secondary legislation by subjecting it to the affirmative regulation procedure. The Government are meeting us part way on this matter by requiring in some key areas that the affirmative procedure apply to the first regulations made under various provisions. As we have heard, the changes apply to fit and proper person requirements, financial sustainability, the business plan, systems and process, continuity strategies and significant events.

We have also had the benefit of briefings with the Minister and the Bill team, which have aided our understanding of the regime and how it is meant to operate in respect of a range of issues including non-money purchase benefits, significant events, tax and pause orders and connected employers. As our continuing amendments should signal, we are not in total accord with the Bill as it stands and consider further change desirable.

As to the Henry VIII clause introduced by Amendment 24, the Minister is right that we discussed it before it was laid and I was grateful for that opportunity to engage. We are not enamoured generally of such provisions, particularly when they emerge at the tail end of our deliberations. As originally explained to us, they will be constrained by being used only to make the implementation of the regulations effective. In the event, they seem to go further than that. I wonder whether the Minister might comment. We recognise also that these types of provision have been used by Governments of all persuasions.

We recognise the complexity of the provisions in the Bill as well as the agility of the sector in adapting to change and sometimes circumventing it. Our own scrutiny of the Bill has caused us to conclude that the primary legislation is not in perfect shape even after being improved by our amendments, but until the detail of the regulations has been consulted on, it is difficult to foresee in every respect ideally what changes might have been appropriate. This is notwithstanding the flexibility that the Government have already taken for themselves; for example, in Clause 39.

For us, the imperative is to see a fit-for-purpose Bill on the statute book as quickly as possible. We will therefore not oppose this amendment.

Social Security: Claimants

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Wednesday 30th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

I congratulate the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle on her first question. I hope they will not all be as painful in future as this one. I cannot make that commitment. As is said in the report, the reality is that sanctions work. There is a lot of external evidence of sanctions having a substantial impact on employment uptake, whether you are looking at the evidence from Switzerland, the Netherlands, Denmark or Germany. Our own survey shows that people on both JSA and ESA are more likely to accept the rules of the system with the sanction system behind it.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that if the National Audit Office is about anything it is about looking for value for money? Will he confirm that one of the important findings of the NAO is that in the fiscal year 2015 there were, for example, DWP sanction benefits savings, so called, just shy of £100 million net of hardship payments? However, the NAO came to the conclusion that the department had done no overall assessment of any kind of the downstream consequential impacts on other public services, so it is impossible to know whether the prosecution of sanctions as currently carried out by the department is effective value for money.

[Lord Freud]

I am in a difficult position because we are about to make our response to the NAO report, which is a formal process, so I do not have that response. Clearly the NAO concentrates on value for money. It wants more evidence and the department will be looking at providing it with some of that evidence in reply.

Pension Schemes Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 21st November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

I think the reason is that it is pretty odd to have a hybrid approach to a list of requirements some of which are in the Bill and some in regulations. We are looking to put them all together in a coherent way in regulations, which we will consider how best to introduce to the House.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, has any consideration been given to a right of appeal against a civil penalty of this kind, which looks like a substantial potential fine? Who is to judge this? For example, whose duty is it to say that the trustees have changed? It could be any of the other trustees and the administrative fine could be imposed on any one of them at random. There needs to be some kind of due process about substantial fees of this kind landing out of the blue on people who may not bear the main brunt of the significant event over which they are being arraigned.

[Lord Freud]

The noble Lord has opened himself up to a letter from me.

Pension Schemes Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 21st November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, I wonder if I could make a short contribution on this amendment. I declare an interest: I am chair of a DB scheme for the superannuation fund for the GMC and have been chair for a number of years. It is a DB scheme and I do not have as much experience of DC schemes, but I am interested in the Bill. I am sorry that I was abroad when the Second Reading debate took place; I have read it carefully and some very powerful speeches were made.

We have heard again from the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, on the important point about mutuals and AVCs. An important point about AVCs has also been made by the noble Lord, Lord Flight, and I hope we will get some kind of indication about how the Government are going to respond to that.

My real reason for speaking is to support the comments by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. I have been doing legislation of this kind for some time, and this is by some margin the most statutory-instrument-framework type of Bill that I have come across. I understand perfectly well that there are reasons for this; long consultations about some of the problems that the Bill addresses could have provoked some of the outcomes we are trying to avoid. But I spent the weekend looking at the Bill and found that its vagueness—in terms of the policy that is left to the Government to decide at a later stage, much of it through negative rather than affirmative regulations, as currently set out in the Bill—makes it impossible to fit the pieces together properly.

I may be revealing my lack of experience—there are other colleagues in the Committee who know far more about some of the detailed aspects of master trusts—but I make a real plea to the noble Lord, Lord Freud, who has experience of dealing with concerns of this kind on all sides of the House from other Bills in the past.

Policy notes are one way of doing that. I do not think anyone is seeking to stop, hold back or prevent any of the ambitious and necessary outcomes that the Bill seeks to achieve, but we could well be in a position of being presented with statutory instruments in an undesirable way. We have had some conversations about what powers we in this House should properly have over secondary legislation and how we should exercise them. I think that can be avoided if the Minister adopts his tactic of consulting at every opportunity—at the appropriate moment as soon as the policy is finalised; offline, as it were—and with some policy notes. Then we will be confident that it will be safe for us to sign off Royal Assent for the Bill in the expectation that every opportunity will be taken by Ministers at every stage, if they cannot provide draft statutory instruments, to make alternative arrangements such as policy notes so we can be sure that we know what we are voting for and considering in secondary legislation. That is a very important point that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, made.

The Constitution Committee does not do notes of this kind unless it is seriously concerned, and we as a Committee would be foolish not to pay careful attention to the fact that it is urgently drawing matters of this kind to our attention. So I hope that we can get some kind of reassurance on that point from the Minister on the wind-up on these important amendments.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con)]

Clause 1 is critical to the Bill. It sets out the scope for the regime, so I welcome these considered amendments, which give us the opportunity to explore this important clause in detail.

We have taken considerable care in defining master trusts and setting the scope for the new authorisation regime. The guiding principles throughout have been twofold: the first is to ensure that members are protected against the risks that arise in these new structures; the second is to ensure that the extent of any regulation is proportionate.

For example, the definition applies to schemes which are open to more than one employer because the level of engagement and involvement of the employers and scale of such a scheme is likely to be very different from that of a single employer scheme or a scheme in which all the employers are part of the same corporate group. It applies only to schemes which offer money purchase benefits because of the risks that the member bears in relation to such benefits, but we have been careful not to create a loophole for schemes which offer mixed benefits—as we will come on to later.

However, we also need to be mindful of the fact that master trusts are a recent development in a rapidly changing pensions landscape, and the master trust market is evolving all the time. A one-size-fits-all regime may not be proportionate, and we therefore need flexibility to be able to respond to the needs and changes. It is for this reason that Clause 39—which we will come to later in Committee—makes provision allowing for the disapplication of some or all provisions of the Bill for certain schemes.

Turning to the specific amendments, my noble friend Lord Flight seeks to exclude from the definition “AVC only” and “relevant centralised” schemes. I have sympathy with his intentions. Many defined benefit schemes offer AVCs for historic reasons and could be considered to be DB schemes to all intents and purposes, but schemes such as this could be excluded from regulation under our powers under Clause 39, and we prefer to use this power rather than to create a list of exemptions in the Bill, allowing time for more detailed consultation with industry about the diverse types of scheme that currently exist.

I put it on record that our intent is to propose such a carve-out. That is: we intend to consult on regulations under Clause 39(1)(b) to disapply some or all of the provisions of the regime for a mixed benefit master trust scheme, where the only money purchase benefits are those related to additional voluntary contributions of non-money purchase members, but we will also be considering carefully the need to avoid creating any avoidance loopholes as we go through that process.

In relation to the relevant centralised schemes, I am concerned that my noble friend’s amendment may go too far. The definition to which he refers is not confined to industry-wide or not-for-profit schemes, and although there may be a case for excluding some such schemes, I am wary of creating a loophole.

Our aim is to protect members from the risks that are particular to master trusts, and these may equally arise in industry-wide schemes. Similarly, although it is true that most master trusts are run for profit, and that this gives rise to certain risks which the regime seeks to protect, it is not this feature alone which determines the nature of master trusts.

I am grateful for the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Drake. As the noble Lord said, it is a probing amendment to investigate the boundaries of the definition. The amendment would change the definition of master trusts in the Bill and extend it to all schemes which offer money purchase benefits, including those which are used by only a single employer or employers connected to each other.

On the noble Lord’s question of how and when we plan to consult on draft regulations, and indeed on the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, we have worked with the industry and the regulator to establish the key criteria for master trust authorisation. We intend to continue these discussions to develop more detailed policy and secondary legislation. We will follow the published government principles to ensure that consultation is an ongoing process, using the most appropriate forms of communication. The timing of that formal consultation on draft regulations will depend on a number of factors. We anticipate that the initial consultation to inform the regulations may take place in autumn 2017. I hope that that gives the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, some reassurance about the process.

The amendment would extend the scope of the definition and the authorisation regime considerably and would do so in a way that would be disproportionate. To take the example of the scheme starting as a single group employer picking up a non-associated one and moving back and forth, if the scheme is intended to be used for more than one unconnected employer, it is within the scope of the regime. If it starts with only connected employers but takes on an unconnected employer, it will fall within the regime at the point that it takes on the unconnected employer.

Benefit Cap (Housing Benefit and Universal Credit) (Amendment) Regulations 2016

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Tuesday 8th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

I am sorry. I did not mean not to be serious. My best understanding of this is that where someone has been capped and will no longer be capped then we will inform them of the change. If that is not the case, I will write to the noble Baroness; if it is, I will not. However, I am pretty sure that it is the case.

To pick up on the concern expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, regarding the point made by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, the committee wrote to my colleague the Minister for Welfare Delivery to express concern about the equality analysis. I imagine that the noble Lord saw that letter. Ministers fully considered the equality analysis at the same time as the regulations were made but there was simply a delay in publishing it. Perhaps noble Lords can cast their minds back to the peculiar period in our history following the June referendum, when the machinery of government perhaps was not working quite as smooth as it usually—or always—is.

On evaluation and the Ipsos MORI survey that the noble Lord talked about, the numbers came about because it was a longitudinal survey to understand what was happening; a lot of different levels of analysis went on, which looked at different outcomes, some of which were done on a quantitative basis, others on a qualitative basis; that was a qualitative one. We are committed to go on evaluating it and now we are developing the plans to understand behaviours and attitudes. The quarterly benefit cap statistics will continue to be produced, and the May 2017 release will be the first to show the impact of the lower levels.

I hope I have reassured the House that the Government have put in place measures that provide significant additional support to claimants affected by this policy to help them adjust, and wherever possible to move into work.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister and to all colleagues who have contributed to this debate. I think it has been worth while. My difficulty with the Minister’s response—which I will study, as I always do; I have the box set of the Freud responses over 10 years—is that I was looking for “additional”, but I did not get that. It is also too passive. A lot of good work is laid in front of some of these people who are confronting quite catastrophic changes in their financial circumstances. I would have expected a benefit team to have been geared up to deal with that specifically, certainly for six months or so, and that is absent. That is inadequate, because people will suffer as a result of it not being there.

I trust that the Minister has taken the message that although we had important debates about this in 2010 and 2015-16, this is a clear and present danger if it is not got right, and it will continue to be considered in that vein by the department. However, because of the absence of the activity that I was looking for and the additional measures which were not produced, I fear I must test the opinion of the House.

Welfare Reform and Work (Northern Ireland) Order 2016

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Tuesday 13th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

The Minister is right to point to the differences that apply in the different jurisdictions throughout the United Kingdom, but would he agree with me that the excellent work that Professor Eileen Evason did in identifying the mitigating factors has helped bring forward this set of proposals, with which I agree? After a four-year period, taking this together with what is happening in other parts of the United Kingdom such as Scotland, it should be possible for the DWP centrally to look at best practice and at whether some of these mitigating measures are having a beneficial effect that could be applied in other parts of the country.

[Lord Freud]

The DWP has embedded a “test and learn” approach, and really does look at things. Clearly, where you have different strategies in the different countries of the United Kingdom, one can look at what differential impact those policies have had. I am sure that the DWP will take the opportunity to assess that.

The Welfare Reform and Work Act built on the 2012 reforms. This order provides the legislative framework to replicate some of the most important aspects, with changes such as improving fairness in the welfare system by changing the benefit cap level. This order will bring the level of the benefit cap in Northern Ireland alongside that in Great Britain, ensuring parity, through changes such as providing new funding for additional support to help ESA and UC claimants with health conditions and disabilities into work, as well as reforming the ESA work-related activity component, so that the right support and the right incentives are in place for those capable of taking steps back to work. Then there are changes such as correcting the unsustainable rise in benefits compared to earnings by freezing most working-age benefits. Importantly, these changes will help to ensure that the budget of the Northern Ireland Executive is placed on a stable footing.

It was agreed in the fresh start agreement that the Executive could supplement benefits from within their own budget. The agreement allocated up to £585 million of the Executive’s block grant over four years to provide supplementary welfare payments in Northern Ireland, which would be reviewed in three years. Under the 2015 order, the Assembly has already passed some regulations for supplementary welfare payments relating to the 2012 reforms. The provisions of this order will give the Assembly the ability to design and pass further such regulations, including a cost-of-work allowance, and supplementary payments to those affected by the removal of the spare room subsidy. These time-limited payments follow the recommendations of the Evason report, which flowed from a commitment in the fresh start agreement.

This order is about delivering the fresh start agreement and returning Northern Ireland to a position of legislative parity and financial stability. It is about supporting hard work and creating the right incentives for people to find work and create a self-sufficient life, supported by but independent from the state. It is about making sure that spending on welfare is sustainable and fair to the taxpayer, while protecting the most vulnerable. Building an economy based on higher pay, lower taxes and lower welfare is right for the UK, and right for Northern Ireland. I beg to move.

Universal Credit

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Tuesday 19th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

As I said, I am looking at this area. It is not as simple as some of the figures might make you think. I, too, read the IFS research with great interest. Inequality among children has fallen very steeply since the mid-1990s, most of it post the recession. Whenever the IFS says anything nice, I really appreciate it. It said that the important reason was a remarkable fall in the share of children in workless households. Indeed, we have half a million fewer since 2010.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

Will the Minister confirm that, if my history is right, he is the single surviving Minister since 2010 holding down the same office in government, promoting the interests of universal credit? Is this because the subject area is so complicated, or maybe because he is unpaid? Do any of the 11 pilots currently being mounted by the department address the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, which is important? Packages of support and advance payments are available, but this does not seem to be communicated to the people who need them most. I hope that the Minister will stay in his position for some time yet.

[Lord Freud]

I thank the noble Lord. His sums on this are right, although, along with him, I am not sure whether that is a compliment or the opposite. With the figures that we are looking at, we are disentangling legacy systems—which are pretty odd in themselves—from the new system. One fact about the very big ALMO figures is that ALMOs want rent a week in advance, so it is not surprising that a lot of people are in arrears when you compare them with housing associations, which take the rent four weeks in arrears. That is the kind of thing that I have to disentangle.

Universal Credit: Rent Arrears

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Wednesday 13th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

What we are aiming to do with universal credit—and there is evidence of success in this—is to get people to take control of their own lives. It is much more difficult for people to switch to going into work if their rental situation is locked up in a dependency situation. We are aiming to free people from that so that they can move into work. There are good signs that we are being successful in getting people into work.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister’s announcement that he is undertaking a review is very welcome, but will he include the evidence that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has just put forward about the increasing incidence of rent arrears? We need to make sure that this is merely a short-term spike and not a long-term trend. In the course of his researches, will he look into why the safety net measures built into the design of universal credit, to which he referred, appear to be failing in this instance? This is important. By a country mile, this is the biggest change programme that Her Majesty’s Government are bringing forward. It is mission-critical for the United Kingdom, particularly after Brexit, and it is important that we get it right.

[Lord Freud]

I absolutely accept that we need to get it right. I am spending quite a lot of time with the ALMOs. I have had a couple of meetings with Eamon McGoldrick and John Bibby to discuss their findings. It is complicated. The essential fact is that landlords like their money paid in advance and all benefits systems pay in arrears, so we do not know how much of this is what the ALMOs call book arrears and how much is real arrears. We need to get to the bottom of that and we need to get to the bottom of what are the processing and payment systems issues. We need to understand what the existing arrears are. They are much higher than we expected—50%—and that is a frightening fact. We may be looking at a group going into UC which is unusual because it is moving up and down, and we need to understand and quantify those factors.

Welfare

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Monday 21st March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

I accept that one of the issues around the disability element is that we have a fairly one-size-fits-all approach. One thing that the new Secretary of State will be very interested to hear is how best to manage the process in the light of that complexity—I know that he is very aware of it. I have tried to deal with the Motability issue. It is different people who are getting that and it is based on a better test; PIP is a better test than DLA. We are putting a lot of resource into assessments and their quality is now showing some good improvement.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, I am pleased that the Minister paid tribute to the outgoing Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. He is a man I have known over many years and he had a sense of mission, which I think we should acknowledge. I hope that the new Secretary of State will have an equal sense of mission, particularly in relation to universal credit, which was, I think, what drove the past Secretary of State to distraction and out of his office. To me, universal credit is the most important thing that the Government still have to deliver. Will the Minister assure the House that the conversation that the new Secretary of State has announced in relation to disability will not delay the forthcoming White Paper process too long? I am in favour of consultation, and I am also in favour of the Government paying attention to consultative responses, but can he assure the House that the White Paper is still on track?

[Lord Freud]

I have known Stephen Crabb for a time. He was a Whip for the department and then he was in Wales, where he dealt with welfare issues. I have high hopes for him in pursing the reform agenda. He is up for it and he will be pretty effective at it. I look forward to providing him with all the support that I possibly can in this agenda. Clearly, in getting this reform going, the conversation has to be balanced with the speed. He is conscious of that and will look to get something going at the fastest possible speed, commensurate with making sure that we get it right and get the views of quite a complicated set of constituencies.

Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Monday 21st December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

I will have to write on that latter point. The funding for the £2,000 comes from Motability itself—the charity—as I understand it, based out of the reserves it has built up. It needs very substantial reserves because the risk in a leasing business is in the residuals, which can be very volatile, even though you are the biggest. You need very substantial reserves, but it took a view that it had some excess which it was prepared to spend in this way. I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, the moment that the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, suggested to me that this was something worth looking at, I noticed that Motability Operations had set up a review of its remuneration committee’s decisions for its executives. The annual report, which has just been published, shows that it has merely tinkered with this. There was a real hope that it would respond to some of the external interest in what it was doing, yet it has come back with some tiny amendments to the remuneration package and increased the co-salaries in the way that I explained earlier.

I think that the Minister should tell his friends at Motability that Parliament is interested in this. It is in Motability’s interests to respond to the need to be more transparent and to be more assiduous in explaining what it is doing and why it is doing it. This will not go away; I will be standing shoulder to shoulder with the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, so the sooner we can get a modus vivendi whereby Parliament shows that there is an interest in engaging, the better that would be for Motability and for everyone else. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Monday 21st December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

I have tried to make it as clear as I can that we are looking at the level of earnings here. It is not a matter of direct comparisons between earnings and income: we are looking at the level of earnings.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

May I try to make sense of this? I do not think that the Government know what the disposable income per head is of the families that are subject to the benefit cap. That is my objection, because big families obviously have a disposable income that is divided by the number of people in the house. I do not think that these metrics exist, and therefore the noble Baroness is absolutely correct: it is not safe to rely on earnings, because you are not comparing like for like. The really important question for me is: how do we know, in relation to the impact it has on children, what the disposable income per head is in those families that are subject to the cap?

[Lord Freud]

I accept that that is a point about which noble Lords opposite are concerned, but I can only reiterate that we have reached these levels by using the basis of earnings. That is the basis.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

I am clearly not in a position to comment on the work that we do, but I can say that estimating dynamic effects is extraordinarily difficult. We are working on improving how we do that. One of the reasons why we can often get into sterile debates is that getting hold of the real figures and the real behavioural impacts is very difficult. I quoted our child poverty experience. The latest Universal credit at work, in which we outlined theses new approaches, set out big behavioural changes. Many more people—13% more—are going into work, compared with the comparable JSA. That is an example of behavioural effects that is very difficult for us to pre-estimate.

Amendments 92, 93 and 94 are tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Meacher, Lady Sherlock, Lady Pitkeathley and Lady Lister, the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Kirkwood, and the Earl of Listowel. These amendments would require the Secretary of State, when reviewing the level of the benefit cap, to have regard to any impacts on disabled people, their families and carers; the relationship between the level of the cap and median household income; the promotion of the welfare of children in the United Kingdom; households affected by the cap; and public authorities, local authorities and registered social landlords.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked whether we will go on reducing the cap. The Bill requires the Secretary of State to review the level of the cap at least once during a Parliament and provides him with the power to review it at any other time if he considers it appropriate. We believe that this provides the most effective means of ensuring that the cap stays at the appropriate level, while also providing the stability that households on benefits require. Any changes to the benefit cap level will be sensitive to its key principles of maximising work incentives, bringing fairness for working households and providing a reasonable level of support for capped households.

The noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, spoke about carers. I emphasise that the Government recognise the contribution carers make to society. I will deal with carers when discussing the amendment that appears in a later grouping.

The power to review the level of the cap is necessarily broad and has been drafted to allow the Secretary of State to take into account any matters he sees relevant—for example, the wider impacts on families and children. I do not think it right to prescribe in legislation any particular factor which must be considered as part of this review.

Amendment 94 requires the Secretary of State when reviewing the level of the benefit cap to take into account the impact on disabled people, their families and carers. As I mentioned, there are exemptions from the cap for people who are a member of a household that includes somebody who is entitled to attendance allowance, disability living allowance and PIP.

That has been in place since the cap’s introduction and reflects the fact that these benefits are paid in recognition of the extra costs that disability can bring. There is also an exemption for those who are entitled to the support component, and the equivalent in UC, whose health conditions mean that they are unable to undertake any work-related activities. Those exemptions are not changing.

The new provisions will allow the Secretary of State the ability to consider the context of the cap and its level in a broad and balanced way. For example, he may take into account, although he is not limited to these, factors such as: earnings, housing costs and the wider impact on disabled people, families and carers.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

How does this fit into the annual uprating statement? The Minister has just said that the Secretary of State, who has this power, must do it once in every five-year period. There is an annual social security uprating where all these things are considered. Surely we are not going to have, at random in the middle of the year, the Government coming up with a judgment on the cap that is in isolation from the rest of the established procedures for uprating benefits.

[Lord Freud]

The established procedures, of course, are basically to go in line with CPI; this is a much broader look than that, as I have tried to describe. While we have safeguarded those with illness or disability, we do not think it right that in undertaking a review of the level of the cap the Secretary of State should have a legislative requirement to take into account any extra impacts on specific groups.

Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Wednesday 9th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

That is the point that I just made: they could not determine the extent but they could determine the direction. Lastly, the Sheffield Hallam report, which the noble Lord, Lord Patel, mentioned, says that it is unlikely that they will move into employment because of the obstacles that they face. However, we are providing additional support. Indeed, that report did not look specifically at the WRAG.

A number of noble Lords have questioned why we are suggesting that claimants who have been found to be “not fit for work” should be expected to be able to work. I stress that ESA claimants in the work-related activity group have been found to have limited capability for work. The same is true for universal credit claimants. This is very different from being unfit for any work and, although they are not required to look for work, ESA explicitly recognises that claimants may be able to undertake some work via the permitted work rules.

On the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, about adding employability to the WCA, the Secretary of State announced his intention to look at how assessments can be better geared towards those preparing for work. As a number of noble Lords have pointed out, we have announced a White Paper to set out our reforms to improve support for people with health conditions and disabilities.

There may be limitations on the type and amount of work that people in the WRAG can do, and they may also need workplace adjustments, but employment is not ruled out. This is an important distinction; we know that many people with disabilities and health conditions are already working, and many others want to do so. The move to universal credit, an in-and-out-of-work benefit that supports small or fluctuating amounts of work, means that many of the barriers in the current system that claimants face when moving into work are removed. Those are the kind of issues that the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, was talking about with regard to linking rules. This is particularly helpful for people whose health condition means that they can work only some of the time.

To pick up the points from the noble Lord, Lord Low, and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, about the way in which some of these costs are used when either finding work or being in work, travel-to-work costs can be met by the Access to Work scheme, and travel-to-interview costs can be met by the flexible support fund, which is run in JCP. The Government are committed to ensuring that disabled people are able to participate fully in society, and we have set out our ambition to halve the disability employment gap. It is a duty of the Government to support those who want to work to do so and, as I have already mentioned, most people with disabilities and health conditions want to work, including the majority of ESA claimants. Some 61% of those in the WRAG tell us that they want to work, and we mean to put those people’s ambitions at the centre of what we do.

On the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and touched on by my noble friend Lord Blencathra, about whether employers would employ disabled people, we recognise that that is an issue and have pushed the Disability Confident campaign. We have Access to Work behind that, not to speak of the incentive structure of universal credit to get people into work.

In 2012, the UK had a disability employment rate gap of 34 percentage points, which was higher than that in France and Germany, with 19 and 22 percentage points respectively. Therefore, we know it is possible for us to do better and ensure that people with health conditions do not get trapped in the benefits system. That leads to why we are committed to halving the gap.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

Could the Minister give us some assurance about the impact of the 60% reduction in the departmental expenditure limit between now and 2020? I hear what he says, but to get the kind of service that he aspires to needs specialist help and experienced people, who will be harder to find because the department will have less money to pay them.

Housing: Underoccupancy Charge

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Tuesday 3rd November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

Does the Minister accept that there is an important regional dimension to all this? I support the request made by the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, for a regional look at some of this, and also her idea of looking again at the Newcastle study, which demonstrated not only that the bedroom tax increased poverty but that it had an adverse effect on health and well-being, and on social responsibility and networks within neighbourhoods. When the final report is published, will he use his best offices to get a regional dimension into it, so that it considers the community-wide impact, not just the household impact, and the totality of the policy across the piece? I hope that the report will be published before the end of the year.

[Lord Freud]

Yes, the current plan is to publish the report before the end of the year. It does incorporate the regional effects, and I will take the noble Lord’s points about how thoroughly it does so when I go back and talk to the team. For very obvious reasons, I have not seen what is inside that report before it is published, but I will transmit those thoughts to the team.

Universal Credit

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Tuesday 7th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that this is potentially a major target for cybercriminals. We have made an enormous effort in developing the digital system, which is a two-way system, unlike the live system that we are currently rolling out across the country. We are making sure that that is safe from cybercriminals, and the first group of people are looking at security operations, because it is not a question of just building a system; you have to maintain it with a big team to make sure that nothing of that nature is going on.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

Will the Minister confirm that when this House enacted the Welfare Reform Act 2012, the planning assumption was that up to 1 million households would now be receiving universal credit? Will he acknowledge that actually the number of households receiving universal credit is just over 50,000? Will he also accept that that means that lots of families are being denied useful help month by month and the delay is therefore important? Will he undertake to talk to his business manager friends on the Government Front Bench to try to find ways of regularly updating the House over the next 18 months? The delays in the introduction of universal credit are now causing real grief within low-income households.

[Lord Freud]

One of my purposes today is to find a forum where I can update noble Lords in this Chamber about what is happening in a somewhat more sensible atmosphere than is perhaps seen elsewhere in the Palace of Westminster. On the point about timing we have reset this programme, as I am sure all noble Lords here well remember, and will not be going on to the rather sharp upgrades in the volumes that we were initially looking at. We are now designing it in such a way that we will test different groups and make sure that we roll it out sensibly. That was what the reset was about and, interestingly, it is exactly what the NAO and MPA are saying is the way to roll out big programmes.

Child Poverty Act 2010 (Persistent Poverty Target) Regulations 2014

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Freud]

I speak here from a somewhat privileged position, in that I advised the last Government in exactly this area and now speak for the current Government on it. So I am in a position—

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

A very Liberal position.

[Lord Freud]

So I am in a position, slightly embarrassingly, to do this. The trouble with statistics is that you can get very confused by them. When you have had a massive increase in employment and a lot of people entering the market—2 million people into the private sector—you have some very substantial distorting data relating to those new entrants, which change the averages. You have also had massive changes because of the biggest financial crash since the 1930s—it used to be since the 1920s. I looked through the figures, and one-third of the fall in average income, for instance, can be roughly explained, as far as I can tell, by the reduction in bonuses in the City. Before one looks at these average figures, one really needs to dig under them to understand them. Otherwise, people in the Opposition will get into some cheap points that do not really stand up and which will just look foolish when people do the research properly, which they will do in the years to come.

I come off the generality into the specifics and the very difficult set of problems involved in solving child poverty, which we remain absolutely committed to. I will go through the points raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked about the qualifying households. Surveys work by taking data from private households, so there are a relatively small number of children—it is a small number—who are not in there. They are, as she said, children in children’s homes, Travellers and one or two other categories, as she mentioned.

The after-housing-costs point has been very thoroughly debated. My noble friend will remember the thoroughness of some of those debates; the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, was there too. Costs before housing are the set of measures in the Act, which is why we are using them. To change the measures would be to rewrite the primary legislation. Also, clearly, if you use a different base, you might think about what the right percentage figure is. That is the reason that we use before housing costs as a standard measure and as an international comparison. It was chosen because after housing costs reflect, or can reflect, choices that people make to spend more on rent or mortgages because that is what they value more than other things. Therefore there was a good reason that that set of measures was chosen.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

In the long term, the Government think that we need a revised set of child poverty measures which would better reflect the evidence about poverty’s underlying causes and where we need to target action most—the kind of thing that my noble friend Lord Farmer, in particular, was talking about, but we are not currently in a position to put those new measures forward. As our consultation, which the noble Baroness mentioned, showed, this is a complex area and there are a variety of views. I am afraid that that is all I am in a position to say at this stage.

On the noble Lord’s point about how these measures are made up; clearly, both relative and persistent poverty levels depend in part on how both median income changes and how those with low incomes improve relative to the median. That is just how the Act was made. We spent an awfully long time debating during the passage of the Bill a general level of discomfort with just this mechanistic approach to this kind of measure. That is just how it is, and that is what the Act shows, but the fundamentals are that we need to maintain our focus on helping those on lower incomes, which means helping people into work—or more work, which is what universal credit will do—and in help with living costs.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

The Minister is being very helpful, and I do not want to detain the Committee. Presumably Section 6(3) of the Child Poverty Act 2010, as I understand it, requires the Government to set a figure, which has been set at 7%. However, that is all it does. Presumably, the Government, on cause shown if the evidence changed, could in subsequent years change that target. Am I right about that?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

I actually said something rather careful—that we will keep the evidence under review. We will get some up-to-date evidence next year about the persistent poverty target in relation to the relative poverty targets. Clearly, we will be able to monitor that and see how it moves, but we will have set the targets here in these regulations.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

The question I am asking is: are we stuck with the 7% target until 31 March 2021?

[Lord Freud]

The targets are in secondary legislation, and it would be up to a future Government, for which at this stage I cannot talk, to change secondary legislation. In practice, yes; it is a changeable target.

As I said in my opening remarks, we are committed to tackling child poverty, and we have a strong record. Relative child poverty is at its lowest level for 30 years—a fact that will perhaps surprise the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. There are 300,000 fewer children in relative poverty since the election, and now 390,000 fewer children are growing up in workless families. We are especially committed to tackling persistent poverty and to breaking the cycle which sees poor children grow up to become poor adults. That is why I am proud to present these regulations before the Committee today, which set an ambitious persistent poverty target of less than 7% of all children in the UK, meeting our obligations under the Child Poverty Act 2010.

Introduction: Baroness Smith of Newnham

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Tuesday 21st October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, it is clearly utterly important that the sanctions regime is fair to people. We have put in layer on layer of protections and safety nets in the machine. People have, to start with, five days to respond to the letter saying that we are looking at a sanction. Then it goes to a decision-maker and then, if claimants do not like that, to a mandatory reconsideration, which is an extra layer. Then you can go into the tribunal process, and we have hardship. We are putting many measures in to make sure that we run this system as fairly as we possibly can.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, I associate myself with the remarks made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. Having worked with him closely in the past four or five years, I think that the Minister plays an absolutely crucial and effective role in the important reforms that are designed to assist low-paid families in this country, and if he was not here, things would be harder to deliver on time and on budget. However, the scale of sanctions surprises me, with 800,000 or 900,000 sanctions per year. That is not something that I expected ever to see. The claimant commitment that we have is beginning to appear to be used as a coercion document to get people to do things that they do not really want. Will the Minister look again at the report that Professor Paul Gregg did some years ago, which suggested that the way in which to get an appropriate use of sanctions is to involve the claimants at an early stage in a joint enterprise to get a claimant commitment to work?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we have really transformed the role of the client-facing people in Jobcentre Plus and turned them into work coaches; that is what the claimant commitment does. It is something that has been done very recently. The relationship between claimants and the work coaches has changed very substantially already.

Universal Credit

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Wednesday 9th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, this is a very large programme and the way we are doing it is quite responsive. What we have is a test and learn process. That is not just an empty phrase. It is a very large process, based on a live run-out of many tens of thousands of people, which feeds into how we build a fully digital interactive service that we are building at the same time. We will make changes to the process. That is what it is about. It would be silly to do all that work without being responsive. We learn lots of things. One of my jobs is to try to understand what we are finding out and then make those changes. There will be changes. Having said that, we announced a rollout process in December and we are, to my pleasure, managing to get it out to time with those plans. The next stages, which are towards the end of the year, are really important—moving on to families, bringing in childcare and going to that digital place. By the end of the year we will have a working test bed of how a fully interactive process will work. I am not saying it will not change after that, but I am saying that we are doing what we were planning to do.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, I encourage my noble friend to redouble his efforts, as he has undertaken to do, to maintain cross-party support for this transformational programme which is so important to the future of our country. I am as impatient for implementation as anyone, but I exhort him to do this carefully—as he is doing—even if it means that the programme slips a little. It is better that it works properly than it is rushed and done wrongly. Does my noble friend agree that there is an advantage to keeping some flexibility in the funding of the scheme? Passported benefits, childcare costs and the local support services framework are all massively beneficial, and the Treasury should be persuaded to invest more money so that the programme is even more effective in future.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we are indeed trying to get that flexibility. One can look at our very intensive dialogue with the Treasury—going through point by point and milestone by milestone—in two ways. One can look at it as pretty onerous, and it is. On the other hand, it gives one a chance to look at what we should be doing next and changing it. One example is on the support system delivered locally—in the jargon, the LSSF. We were able to go to the Treasury and get more money put into that process quite recently because it could see how valuable and important that was.

Not locking everything down early and having that dialogue works. Frankly, you do not know what you are going to find out or what you are going to need to do when you have a major programme. Having that understanding from the Treasury of what we are doing and keeping it well-informed so that we can make those changes as we go along does work.

Personal Independence Payment

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Tuesday 24th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we are transforming the welfare system in this country. We are doing it across the piece. It is all very well for the Opposition to complain about the speed at which we do these programmes. These programmes are difficult to do. They were shied away from by the previous Government. I think that Peers all round the House will be pleased to see these transformational changes go in and transform the way in which this country operates at a fundamental level. There is a level of cynicism about what is always a difficulty: getting difficult, complicated programmes through exactly to timetable. People who know how difficult projects are know that process, but this is critical work for our country.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, there is, however, an important point that I would like the Minister to comment on, following on from earlier comments made by colleagues. People increasingly say to me that in the implementation of the flagship schemes contained in the Welfare Reform Act 2012 we are beginning to look as if we have bitten off more than we can chew. That is a matter of serious concern. On the narrow point of PIP, I exhort the Minister to hasten slowly. Will he give an assurance to the House that it is more important to him to get these things right than to do them quickly? In that regard, will he look at the possibility of clearing the backlog of personal independence payment claims before the rollout of the reassessment of DLA to other parts of the United Kingdom?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, as my noble friend said, we have to be careful to get the implementation right. We are aiming to do our programmes at the pace that we can do them, so if we have to slow down we will slow down. We go at the pace that works because it is one thing to not go at exactly the speed you may have planned at the beginning; it is another thing to make it difficult for people. In the case of PIP, we are looking at how we carry out the next stage of the PIP rollout, the natural reassessment process. We will extend that only when we have capacity to do so, and so far we have not made any decisions on when we will do that rollout.

Employment

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Wednesday 15th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, the leader of the Labour Party said in 2010 that we had a programme that would lead to the loss of 1 million jobs. In fact, we have had a programme that has led to an increase of 1.2 million jobs. We have the right policies to get this country back on the move.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, whereas it is quite clear that the headline unemployment figures are welcome, there is a problem about emerging underemployment and intermittent hours. While we are waiting, with more and more impatience, for the arrival of universal credit, which in due course will help, will the Minister do all he can to encourage people to take advantage of the existing in-work benefits, which can help employees get into full-time, sustainable jobs? While he is at it, will he do his best to try to tone down the Government’s anti-welfare rhetoric, which indiscriminately and unfairly seeks to caricature every social security claimant as either a scrounger or a cheat?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, as my noble friend is fully aware, we are introducing a programme to blend the out-of-work benefits with the in-work tax credits. That is vital because it gets rid of that distinction and makes a smooth transition from being out of work to being in work. That is a vital reform which, as my noble friend knows, I am pursuing with all my energy.

Pensions Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Monday 16th December 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, I wish to comment briefly on this group of amendments as much as anything to apologise for the fact that I should have declared an interest earlier. I am the chairman of the General Medical Council superannuation fund, as declared in the register of interests.

This is an important debate. We are all very familiar with the unintended consequences of different parts of the system affecting people in a way that might not have been fully appreciated, and I want to look carefully at what the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, has said. However, on a more strategic basis relating to the policy contained in the Bill, no one is denied any accrued rights, and that is a quintessentially important protection in provision. I was concerned that that was not the case but the foundation calculation is based on actuarial calculations with which we are all familiar within the basic state pension. Therefore, of course we need to look at some of these anomalies, and that is what this Committee is for.

In passing, the debates in the other place have all been based on this being a nil-cost reform within its own terms. However, my position is that that does not take account of the substantial savings that the Government will make over a very long period. For my money, I am willing to look beyond the self-contained envelope if the case is made properly, but, for me, the absolutely important and cardinal thing is that accrued rights have been protected.

Amendment 4, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, is very important and well crafted but my real reason for speaking to it is that I think that everybody should be written to. Everybody who is subjected to this change should get a letter from the Pension Service, although obviously that cannot happen until Royal Assent and other mechanics have taken place. I was grateful for the very full answer earlier from the Minister, and I shall study it with great interest. That is the very least that is required. My noble friend Lord Paddick is absolutely correct that there is confusion. We are all slightly finding our way through some of these policy and operational matters. Within the terms of Amendment 4 as it is currently cast, I do not think it is unreasonable to ask for individual letters looking at the foundation costs and calculations that apply to each individual so that everybody knows where they are before this policy takes shape.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, these amendments centre on the group of women who will receive a state pension under the existing system, while men born on the same day as them may be eligible for a single-tier pension. We recognise that people are concerned about this issue and we have already reviewed the position of this group of women. Having looked at the numbers, our analysis shows that about 90% of the women in this group will receive more in state pension and other benefits over the course of their retirement than a man born on the same day as them with the same national insurance record who will be getting a single-tier pension. To be specific, this comparison excludes pension credit but includes savings credit.

The reason is that those women reach state pension age between two and four years before their theoretical twin brothers. Indeed, almost half the group are already drawing their state pension and, on average, will have drawn up to £26,000 before their male twins have begun to draw their pensions. I am excluding from that the unemployed group to which the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, drew our attention. This group of women were not affected by the Pension Act 2011 pension age changes; their state pension age was set back in 1995. We are increasing pension age to maintain sustainability and fairness between the generations. These interactions with pension credit are inevitable consequences of introducing single tier at a time of unequal pension ages. We do not want to wait until late 2018, when pension ages will have equalised, before introducing single tier.

In addition, being a single-tier pensioner, especially in the early years, does not necessarily mean people receiving a full single-tier pension. Under the current system, the median average entitlement for the women in this group is projected to be £125 per week. A similar valuation based on single-tier rules results in a figure of £131 per week—a difference of £6. These are median averages; about half the group would see no change in their entitlement at all. To pick up the point made by my noble friend Lord Paddick, these women have benefited from the triple lock. Basic state pension will be £8 higher per week in 2014-15 than if their pensions had been uprated by earnings since the start of this Parliament. Almost half these women already drawing their state pension are benefiting from the triple lock.

It is often assumed that the new system will simply be more generous than the current system but, as the Committee will be aware, and as we will discuss in depth later, that is not necessarily the case. We will put in place a minimum qualifying period and close access to the savings credit. We will also reduce the deferral increment rates and cease the ability to derive pension from a spouse’s record. Many people will gain from single tier but there are those who will receive less, compared to the current rules. In response to the questions on costings from the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, we assume that these women could choose the system that is better for them, although that is not necessarily an easy choice. However, that is the basis on which we have got to those particular costings.

Child Support Maintenance Calculation Regulations 2012

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Monday 15th October 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, the debate has strayed somewhat from these regulations, most substantially into the readiness of IT. I shall try to deal with that issue full on, because it is a fair question.

The concern is that the new system is late and will not work, and the normal things that people get concerned about with IT were raised. There is clearly a balance here to be struck as regards making sure that you deliver what you are intending to deliver in terms of savings and product, and making sure that it works. You fine-tune that as you get closer and closer and you know more. Regarding the timing, as my noble friend said, we were planning to start in October. It will be a few weeks after that when we will really go in on phase one, but in the scheme of things, it is a few weeks late but will come in safely because we are currently testing to make sure that when we start the system is working. The general point I was asked was: will we go ahead before we are confident that the system works? I can give an absolute assurance, and repeat what the Permanent Secretary said, that we will not go ahead until we are confident that the system will deliver for both the client base and the taxpayer.

The first phase will go ahead in a matter of weeks. As regards the numbers that my noble friend was interested in, we will begin incrementally. In the first phase, we will start off with literally 100 or 200 cases a month for the first, say, four months. We then move up rapidly in the next couple of months to 3,000 or 4,000 cases a month. After six months, when we take over all the new intakes, we will be dealing with 10,000 cases a month. That is the planned progression. Again, as regards the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, on when we will press the button, I should make it absolutely clear that we will not do so unless we are confident that this works. Everyone here knows the history, and we are as conscious of that as anyone.

I take the question of personal assurance very seriously. For a lot of the computer systems that we are introducing, and universal credit in particular, I will give personal assurance. This system is not actually part of my personal portfolio. Although I am dealing with it for the House, the reality is that I am not sitting on this particular computer system with quite the same ferocity—

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lord, that is what worries me. Is it still the case that the target date for the introduction of phase two is July 2013, with a few weeks’ slippage?

[Lord Freud]

We are still on that timetable, absolutely. But we will be flexible as a department. The one piece of advice that the Public Accounts Committee has given to us as a Government, and to the last Government, is to feel our way into these things, to be flexible, pathfind the way and build from there. So we are taking that advice. We cannot have it both ways. This means that there is not a date on which we must press the button, and if we do not press the button on that day we are late, it is a delay and a fiasco. I believe it is wrong of us as politicians to play with computer systems in that way. It is not the right way to do it. We must go in steadily and introduce these systems in a smart, incremental way. That is the lesson that we have learnt from some superhumungous tragedies. When it comes to computer systems, the Government get a lot of the stick for bad computer system introduction. This is because Government computer systems are publically known. The private sector has just as many snafus with computers as the public sector, it is just that they do not make them public.

This ties in neatly to the point about four schemes in parallel, from the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock. We already have three systems running in parallel, and this new system will be more automated and more efficient than those. By using the pathfinder approach that I have described, the new system will be working well before we introduce it full tilt. If the new system is working and sustainable with the kind of volumes that I described, then we will be able to manage the four systems that we will have under our hand at any one time.

Housing Benefit (Amendment) Regulations 2012

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Monday 15th October 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Freud]

I have pleasure in giving a commitment that I will tell noble Lords exactly how we plan to do it when we know. I think I have covered all the issues that were raised—

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

I apologise for interrupting the Minister’s progress. Is there a communications strategy that will roll out with the policy? Obviously, this will have to be delivered by housing associations and local authorities. Is the noble Lord confident that proper notice will be given to those who are affected so that a letter will not arrive in the letter box a fortnight before the policy crystallises?

[Lord Freud]

We are holding a big exercise with local authorities and housing associations and, indeed, the institute is doing a lot of work on this. All the materials are currently going to the relevant bodies and it is up to them to deliver it. They have DWP-branded material in the form of leaflets and so on, so the information is available and ready to go out. Clearly, a lot of effort is going into working out who will be affected and making sure that they get support. There are model letters and leaflets that make up a full toolkit.

I hope I have dealt with the issues. Again, I know full well that noble Lords do not like this policy. That view has been expressed in the Chamber twice and I remember that absolutely, as I suppose noble Lords do, too. There is history here. Our votes were overturned by the Commons, this came back and noble Lords tried again. In the end, after one iteration of it was stopped, I said that I would take following that up in terms of research very seriously, and I set that in train. I hope noble Lords will accept that, unpalatable as these measures are, we have found the best balanced way of reducing the housing bill, which is simply enormous now. No one has said to me, “There is another, easy half a billion to find in the housing bill this way”. This is the fairest way of doing it. It requires a response from local authorities, housing associations and tenants but one that, in the majority of cases, those groups will be able to make. There will be hard cases. Let us hope that we have put enough resource into looking after various hard cases. With that, I hope that on balance noble Lords can support these regulations—with reluctance. I commend them to the Committee.

Occupational and Personal Pension Schemes (Automatic Enrolment) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2012

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Monday 15th October 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, I want to add my support for these regulations. I have myself had one of the four or five questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Drake. It concerns the consultation that the Office for National Statistics is engaged in at the moment in terms of RPI versus CPI. That needs to be thought about quite carefully because it could have a dramatic impact on some of the scheme rules we are talking about and which these regulations cover. I want to put in a request that the department ensures that the ONS is careful about this issue and that people are made aware of the consultation it is currently engaged in.

There is one point I do not understand. I imagine that an average salary scheme must be a defined benefit scheme and therefore it will have a statement of funding principles and trustees. Given that, I do not understand why the easier fix for this was not to change the scheme rules in order to make them compliant. I cannot believe that trustees would want to do anything other than that. They may have a contest for the sponsor of the scheme in terms of getting the resources, but I cannot see how that would be a problem. My question is this: although I am in favour of them, why are these regulations necessary? Why can the trustees of the scheme not deal with it by making a small amendment to the funding rules in the statement of principles for their own individual salary schemes?

If it is easier to give answers to these rather more simple questions by letter, I am quite happy to receive one as well.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I think I will end up writing a letter, but I ought to try to answer the questions in general terms, thus saving a little effort in terms of letter writing. The first point made by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, concerned the potential changes to CPI and RPI. About a year ago we had the most glorious debate on this matter, for which I enjoyed researching probably more than any other topic. I think I am pretty comfortable in saying that the authorities are looking at these two measures and that there are likely to be some changes. RPI has had a very bad press lately, as some noble Lords who are aficionados will have noticed. If and when that change happens, we will have to take a decision, but it is pretty premature to take two hypotheticals and jump to a conclusion ahead of time. We will engage closely with the ONS to ensure that the potential impact on pension re-evaluation is fully considered.

On relying on trustees, my noble friend is absolutely right that there will be trustees here. This is just a technical change. The way it was drafted would have excluded these particular schemes, so that is the way that that has been addressed. This is moving into where schemes go into deficit and the question from the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. They will be required to find funds for the minimum revaluation rate. Section 75 debt will continue to be calculated on the basis that the minimum revaluation rate will apply. The sums go on, even though the scheme has a problem which needs to catch up.

On the schemes that revalue benefits by reference to earnings, we are committed to considering further how that kind of revaluation could be allowed for. Historically, earnings have gone up faster than inflation so it is a lower risk, although that has not necessarily happened in recent years. On the question of whether the provision for discretionary revaluation would be required to be at least that necessary to meet the minimum rate—CPI, RPI or whatever is lower—the answer is yes. Regulation 36(3)(a) stipulates that a scheme with benefits to be revalued on the exercise of the discretionary power can be a qualifying scheme if,

“the funding of the scheme takes account of the exercise of the discretionary power and does so on the assumption that accrued benefits would be revalued at or above the minimum rate”.

That figure is CPI or RPI, whichever is the lower.

I may have answered all the questions without the need for a letter. That would be one of the miracles of our time. I will make sure and, to the extent that we have not absolutely locked this down, I will send a letter over because it is a very technical area.

Credit Unions

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Thursday 19th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we have to build an industry that is self-sustaining. That is the vital priority. It is no good piling money into an industry that cannot effectively absorb it. It is vital that we get this right, and this expansion project is the right way to go.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, my noble friend’s announcement of the extra support for credit unions is immensely welcome, particularly because after April 2013 the discretionary social fund will no longer be available to give community care grants or crisis loans. Will some of the £38 million that he has announced, which is extremely welcome, be used to advertise the existence of the social enterprises that usually constitute credit unions? One of the biggest problems is that people do not know about them. If Jobcentre Plus and prime contractors to the work programme were made to advertise the availability of these services, it would help them enormously to make progress in future.

Public Bodies (Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission: Abolition and Transfer of Functions) Order 2012

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Thursday 12th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, because she said just about everything I had in mind to say. I concur with the important points that she made.

I am very pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Freud, offered us a meeting later in the year. That is part of his unique way of doing business and it is very helpful to the rest of us as we try to understand what is going on. I understand that he and his colleague in the other place are putting a great deal of work in to this important area.

I will stress—because it is easily forgotten—that the client group with whom we are dealing may be disproportionately affected by the impact of the austerity measures that the country faces. I am sure that the Minister and his advisers are already aware of this. As a board member of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, perhaps I could draw his attention to the analysis by James Browne that was published by the IFS for the Family and Parenting Institute in January 2012. It predicted an 8% net loss of income for working single parents and a 12% loss for non-working single parents. We are dealing with a particularly vulnerable client group here, and we all know that. The IFS analysis is useful as a reminder of the importance of getting it right. I know how concerned the noble Lord, Lord Freud, is about these vulnerable groups because he is doing a lot of work on universal credit to try to make sure that these issues are addressed.

In addition to the points addressed to the Committee by the noble Baroness, I will say that other NAO and PAC reports that came out earlier this year—particularly on client fund accounts and on CMEC’s plans to reduce its own spending, which was in an NAO report on 12 February this year—raised matters about which we should all be concerned, including the ability of CMEC to achieve its estimated £117 million savings between now and the fiscal year 2014-15. That is something I would like to put on the agenda for the meeting later in the year, which I would be very pleased to attend—if I get an invitation after this speech.

The NAO was also concerned about the plans to levy charges. I do not need to repeat the point that there is some disjunction between the early planning and the work that the NAO did in highlighting some of the gaps. This will have been worked on and I hope that there will be further and better particulars available. At any future meeting I would like to try to understand how much risk there is in the levying charges policy that is currently being publicly promoted, at least by CMEC.

I agree with the NAO analysis about planning for a 71% take-up of the new statutory system. I have no way of knowing the metrics, systems or processes that CMEC has for measuring that 71%. It is relying very heavily on that as an income stream from which it hopes to move forward. The Comptroller and Auditor-General, the NAO and the PAC were interested to learn more about that, and again expressed concerns. I will also reinforce the point about maximising payments. That is an important duty that will be lost. Any system, whether or not it involves annual reports, should underpin efforts to win back as much of that as we can in the circumstances. That would be useful.

Finally, we still expect a consultation on charging mechanisms. That is a very important piece of outstanding work in which the community, pressure groups and others to whom this area of public policy applies are particularly interested. Perhaps we could add that to the agenda of what now looks like quite a busy meeting some time in the autumn.

This is an important area. I am very ambivalent about this change but I can understand that the costs have to be reduced in a sensible way. I just hope that we are able to do that in a way that does not disproportionately affect the client group we are seeking to serve here. But I have trust that my noble friend Lord Freud is aware and alive to all these things. I hope that the Committee can look to him to give us reassurance, whether privately or publicly, going forward.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, as ever, there have been some very thoughtful and knowledgeable speeches. Why am I not surprised? I will set the context of the process we are going into in terms of consultation. I deliberately kept my speech very focused on this order. As we are all aware, there are a lot of issues around CMEC charging generally, which we will have a lot of time to address. As I said in my opening remarks, I plan to write to noble Lords reasonably soon. I made a commitment to involve noble Lords particularly in the charging process and the plans that we have. I said that I would do that at two points: first, at the outset in order to allow noble Lords to see plans at the beginning as we develop and discuss them and, secondly, before regulations are laid towards the end of the process as the debate has gone through. There is time outside the formal calendar in which to go through this.

I am conscious that when things are difficult—and in this area of child maintenance there is a lot of sensitivity and concern—an involved process is much better than just slamming a set of regulations on the desk. That is why I have done it in that way and have made some cuts. We could easily spend all night on this and I am trying to concentrate just on the core transfer.

There were quite a few questions from noble Lords on the reporting process and the data process. The group will be included in the DWP’s annual report and accounts. It will continue to publish a quarterly summary of statistics of child maintenance and the figures will be included in the biennial Understanding Society survey. We will respond to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, and the PAC through a Treasury minute, which will be published in the near future. I do not have a translation for “near future”, so we will have to go on the commonplace interpretation of what that means.

My noble friend Lord German asked about historic debt and our strategy. It remains a priority. We have a debt of £3.8 billion outstanding. We want to collect as much of that as we can and are using all the powers available to us to do so. He also asked about effectively co-ordinating family support services. A number of principles are involved here: we need to make sure that families have the right information when they separate and that they are encouraged to have a collaborative relationship. That, as noble Lords are fully aware, is a core part of the Government’s strategy here. In the main, services will be voluntary and community sector-led. That is why we have formed a steering group of representatives from the sector to inform our thinking and propose how best to evolve those services. My colleague, the Minister for Disabled People, Maria Miller, announced in January that £20 million was available to support this work and on 25 June she confirmed that £14 million of it would be placed in a new innovation fund to finance effective and innovative interventions. I will not go into that in any greater detail.

Future of Specialist Disability Employment

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Tuesday 10th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

I thank my noble friend for that point. As I said, I will outline exactly how we will report back and timings. The more important point is the level of support we are providing in this case, where we have the personal help and support package, which is considerably tailored with consultation at every stage with, most interestingly, a specific caseworker per person, so people’s individual requirements are analysed and taken into account, plus a fund to help people in. In this case, there is a lot of tailored support. One lesson may well be how important individual caseworkers are in helping people.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

I have been following the development of this policy area, and it is very difficult. I understand the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Collins, about timing, but I disagree with him. I also disagree with him on his interpretation of the Sayce report. Liz Sayce, who did sterling service to this House and others by writing her report, is looking much more long term and I think that her long-term principles are absolutely correct. We have to get the implementation right to look after the individuals who will be directly and, in some cases, starkly affected by this change. I want an assurance from my noble friend that there will be a comprehensive package of support for the individuals affected.

In particular, as it affects these workers that we are all so concerned about this afternoon, transport access through the Access to Work programme is vital, because a lot of these factories and establishments are in very hard labour market areas. They may have to look further afield to find employment opportunities that are appropriate for their special circumstances.

I am reassured to hear my noble friend mention the individual personalised package. I am also reassured by his undertaking to report back. It seems strange to me that we spend £320 million or £330 million on disability specialist employment services but £7,000 million on disability unemployment services. As the architect of the famous DEL-AME switch I will be looking to him in the longer term—and I hope that these short-term problems are sorted out—to use his ingenuity to try to lever some of the money out of disability unemployment support to employment support in the future.

I support what is being suggested. I just hope we get the individual support packages correct.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend, who understands this area as well as anyone in the House.

This is not easy—it is a change in direction. However, it does reflect a world which is moving on, away from the physical disability area, into the mental health disability area. There is a lot of work to be done there. We need the money to be used very efficiently. In terms of efficiency, roughly half of the money spent on Access to Work is in achieving things that would not have happened otherwise. In other words, there is, in the jargon, not too much dead weight. Clearly one of the objectives of any Government must be to ramp up the level of efficiency and reduce the level of dead weight as we direct the money to help people who particularly need it. As noble Lords will know, that is something I am trying to push hard, in every direction that I possibly can.

Employment: Sickness Absence

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Wednesday 25th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, one of the reasons why this is quite a challenging report that implies quite a lot of work is that we need to reshape the provision for people. I shall give your Lordships a statistic that I find truly shocking. We have one occupational health professional in this country for every 34,000 people. In the Netherlands, there is one for every 4,000 people. That just shows how far we have to go to get provision for people in that position.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

Does my noble friend agree that general practitioners have a critical role to play in the health-at-work policy area? Is it too early to say whether there has been any flow-through from the recent introduction of the fit note certification process on absence rates? Will he give sympathetic consideration to the idea in this very welcome report that we should have an independent assessment service? That would be of signal assistance to general practitioners, who are trying to persuade their own patients that it is often in their own interests to go back to the world of work earlier rather than later.

[Lord Freud]

Yes, my Lords. The recommendations in the report were very supportive of maintaining the GP’s role. The independent assessment service could be a supplement to that, which a lot of GPs would find very welcome in helping to get people back into the workplace.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Monday 23rd January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, it is a shame that the noble Lord is not here to move the amendment. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, for moving it so ably. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, was pretty surprised and somewhat impressed as he heard the developments that we are making in this area. He has been a long-term campaigner in this area. I think he was worried about the bits that we had not yet caught. I was not able to have a meeting with him on this matter, but he met with my officials, as did his colleagues from Unlock, and we were able to provide a lot of reassurance about positive intent to keep going in this area. There are some differences, which is the reason why we cannot support the entirety of this new clause. That is not because we are in any way against helping in the rehabilitation of prisoners and other detainees but because we are moving along with our own programme. We think that that will prove more beneficial in the long run than introducing this structure, which we think would be expensive and resource, intensive in prison assessments.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

Perhaps I could concur with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. I support these amendments. As I said in Grand Committee, the key thing—I am a non-executive director of the Wise Group and we run one of these projects very successfully—is that the people who do the work are ex-cons themselves. My suggestion is that more Jobcentre Plus staff should be recruited from ex-convicts in future so that these programmes can be run positively. That is a facetious way of putting it, but this is a serious point.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, it is a real point because we know that virtually all addiction treatment centres are manned by people who have gone through the experience of addiction. That is one of the reasons why they are able to help people. There is probably a very similar argument for convicts. Given the way in which we have incentivised the work programme, I would expect that that fairly basic knowledge will be picked up. I am in no position to instruct any work programme to do anything, but I hope that the way in which this has been structured financially will drive that logic.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Monday 28th November 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Freud]

I would be utterly delighted to invite noble Lords, but not too many. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, will give permission for the Official Opposition team to join him. If he does, I would be delighted to see you all.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

If there are invitations floating around, could I add my name to the list? Two things worry me that we have not touched on. I support the amendment. I do not think that any of us really understands the full consequences of localism as it is finally rolled out. In terms of the public purse as generally described, if we do not have sensible means inquiries within the DWP provisions, we may just be handing on costs, charges and families in distress to our local government colleagues. That does not take us very far.

Another obvious point is that the legal aid changes that are coming are very worrying. If we look at some of the wider context in any such meeting, that would be extremely valuable, too.

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville]

My Lords, I reassure my noble friend the Minister that I am not asking to come to this meeting, but, as somebody who has sat through long hours in Grand Committee, I would diffidently make the suggestion that both matters might be treated at the same meeting.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

It never failed in the past. They also underplay their ability to gather the views of stakeholders that have been coming and do come to them directly. I suggest that a major expansion of the powers of the SSAC, which this would represent in practice, is not appropriate. Any regulations for universal credit that rely on existing legislation relating to claims, awards, payments and joint claimants will still be subject to SSAC examination. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

I do not know whether I am more frightened now than I was previously. I accept that there is a capacity issue, but I am looking for the comfort that I have heard in the past that significant matters will reach our desks as legislators faster. None of us can keep up with the flow of things. If you are just a guerrilla opposition Member, which I used to be, the default position was to table negative prayers against everything.

The Minister has to be careful that we do not get back to that safety default position where you could just give the Minister of the day a bit of a kicking at the Dispatch Box and go home. Sometimes you might hit lucky on something that the Government did not want you to know about, but that is not where we want to be. I absolutely accept that the Minister in particular has been transparent to a fault. You can see straight through him on things that are coming down the track. It is impossible to read it all, but I worry that he will struggle if these regulations come in in wodges and packages immediately after Royal Assent. I do not want people like me to be put into the position where I think, “Well, safety first. Let us just pray against it anyway”. That would not be sensible.

I would like the SSAC to say, “Of this batch, if you want to concentrate on anything, this is what you should concentrate on”. That would be massively reassuring to me. I would go home at the weekend thinking that I was earning whatever it is that we get to come here. Obviously, I will withdraw this amendment, but I hope that the Minister will reflect on that point. This is a probing amendment. I understand capacity issues and the importance of him using his expertise within the Government to get to a better place. I will read the record and try not to worry more than I did before I tabled the amendment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Meacher]

Perhaps I may suggest that the Budget is a completely different kettle of fish, because you absolutely have to implement financial changes on the day of the announcement—otherwise all sorts of people will play games and use the delay to do all sorts of things. However, social security is completely different. You are talking about vulnerable people dependent on benefits, and that is why the convention in the social security field is totally different from the convention regarding the Budget.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

Can I just make a point? As to the Minister’s explanation of when things start from, this announcement was made in 2010. If logic is to stay on his side, implementation should have started in 2010.

[Lord Freud]

Well, my Lords, what was written in the document that my noble friend Lady Thomas referred to was posited on the notice given in it, which allowed people to prepare for this change. The notice was given in—

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

I have no idea—it was a thought in my bath. I confessed that at the beginning. However, it is worth reflecting on. Of course the noble Lord is absolutely right—as soon you start thinking about it, you start putting in layers of complexity. I think a challenge to Ministers is not a bad idea, even if it was just on the wall or behind the desk—I would settle for that. I beg to move.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, in some areas I broadly agree with the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s suggestions, and the Government have brought forward amendments to make these changes. Where key principles are established the first time the powers are used, these amendments will make the regulations subject to the affirmative procedure in the first instance. As to Amendment 66, Clause 6(1)(a) allows for regulations to set out circumstances in which a claimant will not be entitled to universal credit even though they meet the conditions of entitlement. I am grateful for the opportunity to reassure the Committee that the negative procedure will afford Parliament adequate control over the use of this power.

As I set out during our debate on Clause 6, there will be a number of specific groups who will not be able to access universal credit. These may include certain prisoners and children leaving full-time care who remain the responsibility of the local authority where payment of universal credit would lead to duplication of provision. This will broadly reflect similar rules in current benefits.

Similarly, I would like to reassure noble Lords that it is appropriate for the regulations on hardship and claimants falling into the no work-related requirements group to be subject to the affirmative procedure only in the first instance. In both cases, our intention is that the initial set of regulations will clearly establish the key principles of the new system. We have already provided noble Lords with a draft of the regulations to be made under Clause 19(2)(d). We have also published a briefing note on the conditionality threshold. We have debated these matters at some length earlier in Committee. Once the system that we have set out is in place, it is unlikely that the regulations will change significantly, and I hope that is the assurance that my noble friend Lord German was looking for.

There are three areas where I am unable to accept the committee’s recommendations or the noble Lord’s amendments. First, the committee and the noble Lord have suggested that Clause 47 should be removed from the Bill. Clause 47 relates to the parliamentary procedure for regulations relating to the requirements on jobseeker’s allowance claimants to be actively seeking, and available for, work. These powers are currently subject to the affirmative procedure. The clause makes them subject to the negative procedure.

These powers were groundbreaking when first introduced in 1995, as the noble Lord pointed out. However, the House now has had more than 15 years experience of how these powers are used. There is a wide understanding of what the phrases “actively seeking” and “available for work” mean; in fact, it fundamentally underpins our active labour market approach. We believe that this experience means that it is now far more appropriate that this power is subject to the negative procedure. Their use is now well established and we have no intention of departing from that precedent.

Secondly, Clauses 33 and 89 allow for supplementary, incidental, transitional and consequential amendments to other legislation to be made through regulations. To pick up on the point that my noble friend made about the Scottish Government, who have powers under Clause 33 to make consequential amendments in their area of remit, they specifically requested that these regulations be made by affirmative procedure in the Scottish Parliament. This was the result of one of our helpful non-statutory discussions, which I am sure an FOI request will show in all its glory. Amendments 70 and 99 would make any regulations that amend primary legislation subject to the affirmative procedure.

It is likely that a large number of minor amendments to other legislation will be necessary as a result of the importance and scale of the changes that the Bill introduces. It is not unusual for some of these changes to be made through secondary legislation, and such consequential powers are usually subject to the negative procedure. Moving away from this precedent would take up a very significant amount of parliamentary time and could pose a risk to the timetables for both universal credit and personal independence payment. We therefore feel that the negative procedure remains appropriate.

Amendments 55E to 55G and 69ZA seek to make regulations that contain definitions of “disabled”, “severely disabled” or “work” subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. It inserts a new subsection into Clause 43 and consequential amendments to the terms where they arise in Clause 41. I can reassure the noble Lord that these amendments are not necessary. Clause 43(3) already provides that a wide range of regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure the first time that the power is exercised. This includes the regulations to be made under Clause 12 providing for additional amounts that will include the definitions of the terms mentioned in the amendment. Noble Lords may recall that the illustrative draft regulations on elements provided to your Lordships already contain a draft definition of “disabled” and “severely disabled”.

Under Amendment 69ZA, the noble Lord seeks to significantly widen the scope of regulations subject to debate in both Houses, covering consequential amendments and changes to working age benefits and pension credit. It would be completely impractical for this House to debate the numerous consequential amendments being made to both primary and secondary legislation, and a poor use of parliamentary time. I have already explained why it is more appropriate that Clause 33 should remain subject to negative procedures, but none of the other provisions identified by this amendment was covered by the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. We are therefore satisfied that the negative procedure is appropriate.

With regard to universal credit, I should also point out that all the regulations on entitlement, awards and claimant responsibilities will be in a single set of regulations. They will necessarily be affirmative in the first instance because if any regulations within a set are affirmative they all are. So, even if the Bill does not require the affirmative procedure for specific points, it will apply in practice.

Amendment 71 would introduce a different form of scrutiny for universal credit regulations requiring the Secretary of State to avoid creating any unnecessary complexity into the system. I strongly support the spirit of the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood. A key aim of universal credit is to simplify the benefit system. Simplification is a publicly stated, fundamental principle that has guided the design of the new system. Any requirement for simplicity would have to be finely balanced against other considerations, such as affordability or easing the transition to work. I acknowledge that this is a probing amendment, but perhaps a duty to consider the simplicity of any changes, as suggested by the noble Lord, would be a better approach than that in the amendment. However, any Government would clearly have to be concerned about the detailed interpretation of simplicity, which, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, took delight in pointing out, is a subjective term.

Nevertheless, I will look at this idea very closely. I can assure the noble Lord that we will put in place a number of non-legislative safeguards to protect universal credit from unnecessary complexity. These include governance processes to ensure simplification and consistency in policy design, and working with claimants to ensure that universal credit is simple to understand and administer.

Given these explanations, I urge noble Lords to withdraw or not move their amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, how we research changing universal credit is something that I am taking an active interest in getting on top of now, as I discussed on a previous day. Clearly there is a lot of research. The department puts out an enormous amount of research every year. Huge tomes come out monthly, and I know noble Lords enjoy reading them all. There is no lack of adequacy of independent research on DWP matters.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, my main priority is to get back to my bath as soon as possible. If I do not get my 7 pm train I will not do that, so I thank the Minister for his reply, and I am happy to withdraw the amendment.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Monday 10th October 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I was coming to this issue. The universal credit is a rather differently structured benefit system. We have talked in the past about much greater flexibility with earlier draw-downs and an automatic repayment system. We are looking at these kinds of structures. When I talk about budgeting support, I am not just talking about education, advisers and that kind of support, I am also talking about a degree of flexibility in the system that simply does not and cannot exist now. I do not think there would be any stigmatisation at all in how people use this system. We have not worked out all the detail of this, and noble Lords have given me personally quite a bit of food for thought. How we develop these regulations and get them right so that we do not run into the kind of problems which noble Lords have so powerfully raised today is something that we will look at very closely. On the stigmatisation point, my intention would be that it would be invisible, and within the universal credit system, it can be invisible.

Let me revert to the question put by my noble friend Lord Kirkwood about the impact assessment. I have to tell him that payment frequency is not one of the issues in the impact assessment. It was referred to in the equality impact assessment where we said we were carefully considering the claimant welfare implications of the options, so that is where it is.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

May I clarify the point for the avoidance of doubt? Is there a technical issue about frequency of payments? I understand and am listening carefully to what he is saying about assessment periods versus payment periods. Are his new computers going to be agile enough to pay fortnightly rather than monthly?

[Lord Freud]

I think the noble Lord, with his normal subtlety in his amendment, has made a distinction between bi-monthly and fortnightly. This is one of those issues, to be honest, where if you start delving into it, you will end up with daily rates because of the arbitrariness of both weeks and months. It is not a straightforward thing to do. Clearly, at one level all the utility systems are driven on a monthly basis, while other areas are driven on a weekly basis. With this system, we are one of the drivers of the way people behave and of social change. We should not forget that; how we do this will shape the norm, so it is not just a question of saying, “This is what everyone does. We must adapt to it”. There is an element of saying, “If we do it like this, we will shape the way people arrange their lives”.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

On this occasion I will accept not just realism but good will.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

I am grateful to all colleagues who have taken part in this debate. I hope it has fulfilled its purpose of scoping out exactly where the Committee is going. I understand that colleagues want to finish at 7.30 pm. I cannot but welcome my mentor, the noble Lord, Lord Newton, who was Secretary of State for Health and Social Security under Margaret Thatcher and succeeded in spite of all these things. It is a particular delight. I should like the Minister of State to pay particular attention to what the noble Lord says because he knows what he is talking about. I know this because I have followed his career for many years.

We obviously need a code for this. An Enigma machine might be purchased so that we can understand what “soon” really means, and issues of that kind. That will help the Committee. I certainly want to sign up for the demonstration of Yasmin and Liam when it comes. Apart from anything else, I have a drink riding on this. If this system works, I owe the Minister of State at least a double whisky or whatever his poison is. I want to be deeply involved in all these processes related to IT.

I have two other very quick points. It is true to say, and reassuring to hear, that SSAC has that role, and that the Minister clearly understands its importance in this process. He will know that it has never had the same formal process of review over tax credits that it had over the benefits system. We need to be careful about that. If the Government are not careful and start hiding behind that technicality, it may be more difficult for SSAC to look at the successor benefits to tax credits and working tax credit, which would be a shame. I would not mind some reassurance on that.

Just for amusement, I discovered that the word “regulations” appears 380 times in the Bill.

[Lord Freud]

My noble friend asked for some reassurance in the area of tax credits. Under the universal credit, it will effectively become part of the responsibility of the DWP and therefore become overviewable and reviewable by SSAC. Whereas I might have been a little coy in giving some other assurances today, I can be absolutely uncoy about this one.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

There is no need for code for “coy”. In the last minute available to me, the one thing I want to say is that if we are getting this level of co-operation from the Bill team, I am willing to do more work. We do not normally do it this way. With new, technical social security Bills, the default position is to table amendments to clarify and bring the thing into focus. Speaking for myself—I speak for nobody else—I am willing to do more of that work with the Bill team if they are available. As the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said, we often share rhetoric but we should, as a Committee, try to drill into the dozen issues that are the real hot spots. I think that is what the pressure groups are hoping for with this Bill. I am certainly up for that. That is a much better way to proceed than splattering amendments, as I did with Clause 1 and for which I apologise; I will not do that again. We will take the length of time that we need to take, but if we get the hot spots ironed out sensibly it will be to the benefit of not just the Committee but the whole House and the implementation of this policy, which it is so important that we get right.

Again, I am grateful to colleagues who have taken part and to the Minister for being so generous in responding. We are now a minute late. I now withdraw the amendment.

Employment and Support Allowance (Limited Capability for Work and Limited Capability for Work-Related Activity) (Amendment) Regulations 2011

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Wednesday 16th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I am pleased to answer that question. I am rather surprised by the actions of the groups. I have seen a lot of correspondence and a lot of internal work. There was very full engagement by both sides, and a lot of correspondence about fine-tuning the regulations. At the end of the process there seemed to be real agreement. Therefore I am genuinely surprised that, after the passage of some months, the consensus seems to have been significantly eroded. Income elements may have come to the fore, whereas the technical analysis that was the subject of the interplay between the department and the groups was perhaps easier to get to grips with.

I will go back to describing the system. The wider system that we inherited, after the measures that the internal reviews described, contained flaws that we as a new Government have looked to put right as quickly as possible. In June we launched the first of the five annual independent reviews of the work capability assessment—the first of the reviews that this House legislated for. It was carried out by Professor Malcolm Harrington, a highly respected occupational physician. He reported last November. He did not consider that the work capability assessment was broken but felt that it was not working as well as it should and made a series of recommendations to improve its fairness and effectiveness. We have fully endorsed his review, as the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, pointed out, and we have committed to implementing his recommendations as quickly as possible.

The first key element of those recommendations—I am borrowing, again, from the description of the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas—is that we empower Jobcentre Plus decision-makers to make the right decision. They will have clear responsibility for the decisions they make and will be given the support that they need to ensure that those decisions are independent and considered. I hope that that is one of the reassurances for which the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, was looking.

The second recommendation is to ensure that individuals are treated with compassion by clearly explaining everything to them, helping them to fully understand the process they will go through and ensuring that they know that they can provide additional evidence, including medical evidence, for consideration at any time. I hope that that is the second of the reassurances for which the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, was looking.

The third major change is to improve the transparency of the Atos assessment by ensuring the audio recording of assessments in the Atos pilot. The other element involving the Atos process is that we will account for the particular difficulties in assessing mental health conditions by ensuring that Atos employs “mental health champions” at every centre.

Nearly all these changes will be in place for the start of the reassessment, with the remainder completed in time for the summer. We have also appointed Professor Harrington to conduct the second independent review. He will now examine the assessment in more detail, particularly focusing on mental health descriptors and fluctuating conditions.

I shall now respond to the questions of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on fluctuating conditions. The fact that conditions fluctuate is now embedded in the descriptors. We just want to make sure in this next piece of work that we get that absolutely right. We look forward to Professor Harrington’s recommendations following the second review in due course.

The regulations before us today are part of this improvement process. They come from the internal review undertaken and fully supported by the previous Government. That review suggested a number of changes to clarify and improve the technical descriptors; noble Lords have made these points so I will go through them quickly. The changes include placing individuals awaiting or between courses of chemotherapy in the support group; expanding the support group to cover people with certain communication problems and severe disability due to mental health conditions; greater provision for individuals who are in residential rehabilitation due to drug or alcohol misuse; ensuring the descriptors take account of someone’s adaptation to a condition or disability; and simplifying the language of the descriptors to ensure fair, consistent and transparent applications. These changes will improve the work capability assessment. They will increase the number of people with severe disabilities who are provided with unconditional support in the support group. They will ensure that we do not deny employment support to individuals who, with our help, can get back to work.

The internal review consulted a range of experts and groups and, as I described just now, tried to reach consensus. Significant concerns were expressed by the groups around the descriptors. I will not go into those because I am short of time, but I can respond to the noble Countess, Lady Mar, on fluctuating conditions. It must be possible for all the descriptors to be completed reliably, repeatedly and safely, otherwise the individual is considered unable to complete the activity.

The Department for Work and Pensions has undertaken rigorous testing of these changes to understand their effects. The department modelled the impact of the changes on data from almost 60,000 assessments, and a panel of experts was brought together to examine the changes in significant detail. Where any issues were identified during this process, further refinements were made to the descriptors. From this analysis we expect the changes to increase the number of new claimants who are put in the support group, specifically, those who are awaiting or are between courses of chemotherapy, and some whose limited capability relates to certain mental functions and communication difficulties.

I have run out of time, but I hope that the House will indulge me for two more minutes as this is really important. We are committed to the principle of continuous review and refinement of the work capability assessment. As part of that principle, we have reviewed in detail the working of the work capability assessment and consulted in depth with specialist disability groups to improve the assessment. The addendum to the original report shows how far such concerns were taken on board in these regulations. We are committed to taking Professor Harrington’s review to improve the sensitivity of the process. Of the 17 recommendations that he made, we will have 15 in place in time for April and the other two in a couple of months. I hope that that is a final reassurance for the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, and the noble Countess, Lady Mar.

The changes that we are making in the regulations will improve the work capability assessment. They will expand the support group to cover people with severe disability due to mental health conditions and communication problems. They will ensure that the descriptors take account of someone’s adaptation to a condition or disability and accepting these regulations means that we can make these important improvements now. We remain committed to the principle of continuous improvement to the work capability assessment. I trust that the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, will feel able to withdraw his Prayer to Annul these important regulations.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. It has been a long but excellent debate. I thank all noble Lords who have participated. I shall certainly look carefully at the record tomorrow to ensure that we learn the lessons that have been laid in front of the House during the debate. I am pretty sure that the Minister will do the same—that he will take the opportunity of reflecting very carefully on what he has heard and the tone in which some of these powerful speeches have been made.

Knowing the Minister as I do, I know that he will also take away from the debate the fact that he may have some work to do to reconnect the department properly with the disability community and the pressures groups that represent it. I hope he will take that commitment on personally and not leave it to his senior officials, very highly regarded as they may be. I hope that he will personally invest time to make that connection good, otherwise it will fall foul of broken communications in future if it is not put right.

Reflecting on the debate, I think the Minister has got an amber light; he did not get a red light, but he still can in future if he does not complete the commitments he made—speaking for myself, I am willing to accept them—but he has not got a green light. I hope I am reflecting the tone of our excellent debate in seeking the leave of the House to withdraw this Prayer.

Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2011

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Monday 14th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

I certainly think that that is a good idea and I would support it.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, this has been an interesting debate, as one would hope and expect. I thank noble Lords for their valued contributions. I should probably declare an interest in that I am due a winter fuel payment this year, although I did not get it. The DWP says that it paid everyone and I find that I am the only person who did not get their winter fuel payment.

The uprating order and the GMP increase order both legislate for increases to benefits and pensions to be paid from April, thus protecting their value at a difficult time. My overview of what the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said is that the party opposite was perfectly happy with the CPI in the short term and would agree with the UK Office for National Statistics on the issue if the CPI was to include housing costs in the slightly longer term. On that basis, I suspect that there is rather less between us than might appear at first instance. We are very interested in the changes that will potentially be made to the CPI if housing costs are incorporated, which is being looked at. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Lea, hinted, it is likely that that would be done not by including the changes in mortgage interest rates but by the actual changes in house values.

A lot of points were raised in the debate and I will do my best to answer as many as I can. An important point about substitution was raised by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and my noble friend Lord German, who pointed out that people will buy everything at the bottom, which is what one expects them to do—that was the sentiment. However, that is not what happens with this index, which it is important to emphasise. If in a given range of the cheapest items—or best value goods, whatever they are called—and one of them goes up but the rest stay the same, people will substitute the one that has increased in price with the ones that remained stable. The relative movement in those goods, rather than their absolute value at any one time, is what counts. It is really important to understand that when looking at how the substitution effect actually works.

We could probably all bore each other by quoting lots of different experts—and I think we have, so I will not bother doing so—but the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, made the point that we abandoned the policy of the CPI when it came to it. I repeat what I said in my opening remarks: we announced the RPI for the basic state pension for the year at the same time as we announced the move to the CPI, so there has been no reversal or change. That was what the policy was.

On the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, on the triple guarantee, in the current environment the earnings factor does not make much immediate difference, but over time it will make a substantial difference and pensioners will benefit from it. As I said in my opening remarks, the 1.5 per cent increase from the previous year was not reversed. Picking up on some of the noble Lord’s other points, I think that he knows almost better than I do that, when it comes to mortgage interest for people of working age, benefit recipients and working people on low incomes can also get support for mortgage interest payments.

The noble Lord asked what assessment had been made of the changes that we have introduced to non-dependent deductions. The equality impact assessment on those changes has been published on the DWP website. A question was also asked about indexation rights for public service pensions. Those have been index-linked on the same RPI basis up to this point, and in future the indexation will be made on the new basis, which is CPI.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, also homed in on the effect on poorer households, which is the big question here. We now have 5.8 million adults of working age living in relative poverty. As I have argued, the idea is that using the CPI will ensure that typical changes remain in line with real experience. Where we need to go in this area—a much more important point—is in the structure of the benefits system so that we strike the right balance between the welfare system as a safety net and one that sends out a clear message that work is valuable and that, if you can work, you should work.

We are modelling the big impact that will be made by introducing the universal credit. We estimate that 350,000 fewer children and 600,000 fewer adults will be expected to live in poverty—on the normal definition of 60 per cent of median household income. Some two-thirds of that effect will be because of better take-up. My noble friend Lord Kirkwood asked whether we would chase underpayments as hard as overpayments, but that is exactly how that effect will happen in practice. A lot of the effect will come from take-up by people who simply do not take up what they are entitled to.

Welfare Reform

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Monday 11th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, perhaps I may return to the important question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. Does the Minister accept that there is real concern about whether the work capability assessment is fit for purpose? In the pilots established in Aberdeen and Burnley, will Professor Harrington be able to look at the medical versus the biopsychosocial dimensions of the tests? Some of us believe that the tests are far too medical. My experience working with the Wise Group suggests that people have not medical problems but biopsychosocial problems, which do not admit of an easy medical solution. Will Professor Harrington be able to look at that and give advice to the Government on improving the tests?

[Lord Freud]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, for concentrating on the important issue of what good health and ill health are, which is extraordinarily difficult to pin down. I am sure that he believes as I do that the well-springs of health are around basic social skills and a sense of meaning and community. When we put people on inactive benefits, we are taking away from them the well-springs of health. It is vital that we help people back into work, which is such an important contributor to their psychosocial well-being. We will watch the WCA very closely to make sure that it does its job, so that we can have the opportunity to get people back to work.

Pensions: Automatic Enrolment

Debate between Lord Freud and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Thursday 10th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

No.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

Shame.

[Lord Freud]

I saw someone else obtain three minutes the other day, but this is not permissible. I will write to noble Lords on other issues that I have not managed to cover. I have a lot to write to noble Lords about; I apologise.

Our goal is straightforward—