Pension Schemes Bill

Lord Fuller Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 26th January 2026 Grand Committee

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 91 and 95 in the name of my noble friend Lady Noakes, to which I have added my name. I apologise for not being able to contribute to the Committee’s discussions on Thursday because of competing business on the Floor of the House. I have read Hansard and I should record that I share the reservations expressed about mandation, a subject on which I have received many well-argued requests and emails. I commend the arguments that have been well put by my noble friend Lord Younger of Leckie on the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles. I particularly dislike powers delayed into the future. If the Government decide that they need to legislate later, they can bring in another Bill that the House can scrutinise in the light of contemporary evidence.

I turn to the amendments in this group, so well argued by my noble friend Lady Noakes. I am uneasy, as others are, about the overemphasis on creating size and scale in the Bill: £25 billion is a big fund and, as my noble friend Lady Altmann said, it does not seem to be well evidenced. It is a Labour trend that needs to be treated with some scepticism. We see it in local government reorganisation, in rail nationalisation and now in the proposals for the police. I know from my business experience, which noble Lords know I always come from, that mergers of any kind always have substantial costs and that you need smaller, pushy innovators to keep sectors competitive. This might be contentious, but Aldi was good for Tesco because it kept us on our toes—and even better for the consumer, the equivalent of the saver in this case. The point is that reorganisations of any kind always have costs and only sometimes have benefits.

We have seen the growth in recent years of money purchase funds that are almost entirely digital, and they have brought beneficial competition to the market. We risk eliminating the next generation of innovation, real value creation and indeed British unicorn funds, generated by competition, if we leave the Bill as it is.

We must not allow good performers to be snuffed out by the movement to bigger schemes. That is why we are asking the Minister to look at excluding master trusts and group pension plans that deliver good investment performance from the scale and size requirements. Performance is, after all, what matters to those saving for a pension. Size, scale and growth are not everything, popular though they tend to be with the fund managers who benefit. Returns matter more, but the Bill at present rather underplays them in favour of scale. My noble friend Lady Noakes’s amendments are just what is needed, and I look forward to hearing how the Minister is going to solve the problem that she has identified.

[Lord Fuller (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 99 in particular but I generally associate myself with all the amendments in this group, including Amendments 95 and 98 in the names of my noble friends.

As we have heard, there is no conclusive evidence that bigger is best when it comes to investment management. Of course there are some large funds that do rather well, but, as I explained on a previous day in Committee, within the Local Government Pension Scheme it is the smallest fund in the Orkneys that has outranked the performance of all the 88 other schemes in the LGPS, and there is something to be said for that. It has never changed its investment manager, and there is a lesson there.

In my experience, the best returns are to be made in investing in companies where you either buy the product or know the management—not so that you can tap them for inside information, of course, but because it hardly ever pays to invest in bad people. I also like to buy when prices fall because, let us face it, buying high and selling cheap is never a good investment strategy. But there is no evidence at all that scale in and of itself is good. There is plenty of evidence that it is worse. As they say, the larger they are the harder they fall, and small ones are more juicy.

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[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

I am grateful to noble Lords who have introduced and spoken to amendments. Clause 40 delivers the Government’s commitment to ensure that DC workplace pension savers benefit from the advantages that flow from scale and consolidation. It establishes a clear, measurable threshold and a framework centred on a single main scale default arrangement—MSDA—so that governance and investment decisions can be applied consistently across large pools of assets. This approach is integral to securing better member outcomes, improved access to productive investment and stronger in-house capability.

We had a preliminary conversation about all this on Thursday, but I know that not all noble Lords were there so, before I dive into specific points on the amendments, I will pick up a couple of the headlines. In response to the noble Lords, Lord Ashcombe and Lord Palmer, the UK’s workplace pension industry accounts for more than £2 trillion in assets, serving more than 16 million savers who have been automatically enrolled and are not engaged in pension savings. It is particularly important that these assets are working as hard as possible to provide better saver returns and security in retirement and, to do that, scale and provision really matter.

Evidence suggests that there are direct benefits derived from scale; they include better governance and economies of scale, whereby greater size reduces average cost per member and creates the ability to move investment in-house, which reduces investment costs in turn. It also enables access to a wider range of assets, including diversification and the ability to invest directly in assets rather than having to be part of a pooled fund. With improved bargaining power, schemes can negotiate lower investment fees, improving net returns.

There is a lot more that I could say, but I have said quite a lot of this before. I will say just a word just about the level of scale and why it is £25 billion. As I explained last week, our evidence shows that, across a range of domestic and international studies, a greater number of benefits can arise from a scale of around £25 billion to £50 billion of assets under management, including investment expertise, improved governance and access to a wider range of assets.

That is supported by industry analysis, showing that schemes of this size find it easier to invest in productive finance. International evidence shows that funds in the region of £25 billion invest nearly double the level of private market investment compared to a £1 billion pound fund. We selected the lower band, but there is further evidence that demonstrates that the greater the scale, the greater the benefits.

I can point to a range of studies. Analysis from Australia’s pensions regulator found that funds with around £25 billion were able to spread costs over their membership, keeping fees lower. Pensions UK reported that schemes with £25 billion to £50 billion of assets have considerable governance capability and find it easier to invest directly. The Conexus Institute again found in favour of funds of £25 billion to £50 billion. We have been transparently reporting the evidence via the impact assessment and the previous publication of Pension Fund Investment and the UK Economy, which outlined the evidence.

The noble Lord, Lord Fuller, will have to forgive me; I am not going back to LGPS. We spent two entire days in Committee on the first 10 pages of the Bill and I am not going back there. We can do it on Report. He is not going to stand up; I have not responded to a word he has said yet. Give me a moment. The noble Lord’s point is about scale. The evidence shows that larger schemes are better placed to invest—

[Lord Fuller (Con)]

The Minister invites me to stand up. The only reason I mentioned the LGPS is because the LGPS funds have been put into pools of £25 billion to £50 billion. We have a real economy experiment of what might happen if these provisions are enacted on the rest of it. The noble Baroness said that there are lower costs of investment. Then she went on to say, just now, that it is transferred with in-house teams. You will therefore have to substitute an externalised team for an in-house team at a scale of £25 billion. You are trying to compete with Fidelity, which has £900 billion in its team. You are setting these people up to fail; you have got the wrong scheme. You need the ability to go to the largest fund managers with the hugest assets under management, not try to recreate the City in aspic on footprints of £25 billion by duplicating all the procedures, staffing, HR and everything else. You have the B team and, guess what, they are always away on holiday in the first two weeks of August when the last three market crashes have happened and there is no one to answer the phone. That is the problem. You are saving one risk and applying the other.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I made these arguments at some length on Thursday. I have made them again now. The noble Lord disagrees with them; I can tell from his tone. He can read Hansard and pick up the relevant bits with me if he would like to.

Let me come back to the amendments. I will start with Amendments 91 and 95 from the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. I thank her for introducing them with her customary clarity and brevity. These would create an exemption from the scale of requirements for master trusts and GPPs that can demonstrate investment performance exceeding the average of schemes that meet the scale conditions. I recognise the intent to reward strong performance, but obviously I am concerned the proposal would undermine the Government’s objective, which is a market of fewer, larger, better-run schemes, where economies of scale deliver sustained benefits to savers.

I should clarify the point about objectives. The Government’s primary objective is saver outcomes. I want to be clear about that. While I am here, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, that this is not about administrative simplicity but about member outcomes. At the centre of our policy is the drive for better membership outcomes. That does not mean a simple scheme, but one that has strong governance and is well run, including strong administration, because scale supports the scheme to have the resources and the expertise to do this.

To respond to the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, in considering scale in the pensions landscape today, we have all shapes and sizes of schemes, in which value for members is important. We know that performance can be delivered across different sizes of scheme, but scale changes the landscape. Schemes that have scale will have the tools to deliver on value and performance in a way that a small scheme will not be able to in this future landscape. That is because scale enables greater expertise, efficiencies and buying power than a small scheme. That is the landscape we need to deliver for members because we want better outcomes for them. In considering the issue, it is therefore important to focus on the future landscape, the market at scale, and not the current landscape. In our view, there is not sufficient evidence that other approaches can deliver the same benefits for members and the economy.

On the specifics of the noble Baroness’s amendment, there are also some concerns around the impact; it could create an unstable landscape if we were to focus on the performance at any point in time. Of course, the intention for any exemption is that it is a permanent feature of the scheme and is not subject to regular assessment. As we all know, past investment performance is not a guarantee of future success. If we went down this road, there would be times when exempted sub-scale schemes found that they were no longer delivering investment performance that exceeds the average of those at scale. That is not stable for members or employers, and does not support their interests.

Amendment 98 proposes an innovation-based exemption from the scale requirement for master trust schemes offering specialist or innovative services. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, that innovation really matters; that is precisely why the Bill provides for a new entrant pathway so that novel propositions can enter the market and scale responsibly. But creating a parallel innovation pathway as an alternative to scale would dilute the fundamental objective of consolidation and risk maintaining a long tail of small schemes, with fragmented governance and limited access to productive investment.

I should say a few words on competition. Actually, I might come back to that.

Amendments 99 and 106 from the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, would remove the £25 billion threshold from the Bill. We believe the threshold is a central pillar of the policy architecture. It has been set following consultation with industry and government analysis of the emerging evidence, to which I referred earlier, on the point at which the benefits of scale are realised. We believe that this is a key policy decision that should be in the Bill. We also believe, as the noble Baroness indicated, that it is very important that there is certainty for industry on this threshold at the earliest possible point. Putting the £25 billion on the face of the Bill assures industry that it cannot be changed without full parliamentary engagement.

I know the noble Baroness wants me to reassure her that this matter is open for further discussion. I regret that I will have to disappoint her. The Government are committed to this and have put it in the Bill for the reasons I just explained.

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[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I will speak to all the amendments in this group, which are basically on exactly the same topic. I hope that the Minister understands the spirit in which they are all intended. I also hope that the Committee will be minded to support them. In a way, they follow from my Amendment 108 in the previous group, which sought to get away from the idea that one size fits all in pensions and that a common investment strategy is a recipe for success for either a group of members or all members.

My concern is that the approach to auto-enrolment pensions hitherto was to assume that there is a standard fund that is suitable for all classes of members, which can then be safely invested in by everybody. Of course, it is easiest for providers to have a common investment strategy or a common investment approach in the default fund, but enforced uniformity does not mean that all groups of members are served well.

These amendments seek to anticipate the possibility that some of the large pension providers, either existing ones or, I hope, new ones, will follow an approach in which they have a number of default funds that can be suited to different classes of member on the basis of three or four basic questions that might be relevant to their circumstances. I hope that we get to a position—I know some of the new providers intend to do this—where the pension provider does not look just at your chronological age, for example, and make an assumption about what investments suit you, but asks you whether you intend to stop working at a particular date, whether you have other pension funds and what your state of health is. Just those three basic questions can be critical to the success of an investment strategy for that group of members, but they are all lumped together at the moment.

In addition, it would be helpful to use the Bill not to close down the option of a scheme offering a number of default funds. At the moment, the danger is that everybody thinks that we have to get to £25 billion, even if it is by a range of different approaches. I know that there is an option potentially to aggregate assets, but my amendments seek to ensure that, if the £25 billion number stays in the Bill—the noble Baroness unfortunately seems intent on that being so—the Bill directly allows for a number of default funds to be added up.

I say that because we have seen in recent years the “lifestyling” approach, for example, in which all members are put into one default fund with a lifestyle approach, or a target date fund approach. This has let members down significantly. Although it is not widely reported, I am sure that many other noble Lords have had emails or letters from people coming up to retirement in 2022, who had a pension fund statement that told them they were in a safe fund and the size of the pension they could expect to receive in a few months’ time. By the time they came to, let us say, later in 2022, however, their so-called safe fund had lost up to 30% of its value. Suddenly, they were unable to stop work because they had been put in an approach that was not suitable in the end or did not do exactly what it said on the tin in its results.

If the current approach is that, just because you are 50 or 55, no other questions are asked and you are in a big default fund that says you will be stopping work within the next five to 10 years, and therefore you should not be invested in high-risk assets, which is another name for higher expected return assets, but should be moved into low-risk assets, which is another name for low expected return assets, you are not necessarily being provided with a suitable option. One size fits all does not work if, for example, the member is 55 or even 60, has no intention of stopping work in the foreseeable future, perhaps has a guaranteed defined benefit pension somewhere else that they can rely on, or, at the other end of the scale, is in very poor health and may have to stop work soon, so should be in a different pool. I hope that the Minister will understand that the intention is to anticipate innovation in that regard. I feel that, at the moment, pension companies are not even asking members what their intentions or circumstances are, or even the basic three or four questions.

I declare an interest as an adviser to Cushon, which is looking to introduce an approach of that nature. Other innovative companies also intend to improve member engagement by reaching out to members and trying to put them in segregated pools, rather than just one big pool. The Bill, using just one default fund, or a standard fund, as I prefer to call it, will preclude that kind of development, which could be in members’ interests, could have avoided the catastrophes that we saw with the current one-size-fits-all approach and could encourage providers to explain more clearly what exactly is happening to the members’ money in the investment pools that they are in, which currently does not take place—low risk is not explained, nor is high risk. Therefore, I hope that this principle can be put in the Bill. It is a very minor change, to talk about more than one default fund for a provider, rather than saying “the” default fund. I beg to move.

[Lord Fuller (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak only briefly, because the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, has put her finger on it. There is a choice here—the choice of the members. If we believe that the members have a say in their own retirement, having saved for it, so that they are stakeholders in that respect, they have a choice, or they are forced into groupthink. It is masterfully explained. The nonsense that gilts are low risk is a fantasy. We heard how the move into gilts resulted because the markets moved into a 22% loss in the underlying asset value.

But the groupthink in the pensions industry is that you have to go to gilts as you approach retirement. As you approach retirement nowadays, you have 30 years to go—30 years of growth. Yes, I do not deny that you need something in gilts and bonds, but there is still a long way to go. Especially in an inflationary period, as we have been through, cash, cash-like and bond/gilt-like investments will not be enough.

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[Lord Fuller (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Davies, found the Government’s position inexplicable such that these amendments have become necessary. I can understand that. The point is that the Government do not—they do not understand finance. Perhaps they should have had a few more prawn cocktails before the election; they might have got some learning inside them. This group demonstrates that there is ignorance in this Bill about investment, asset classes and asset allocations.

New Section 28C(5) treats private equity as if it is just one class, but it is not. That is why I welcome Amendment 121, specifically proposed new paragraphs (f) and (g), which would lay out the appropriateness of scale-up capital and quoted and unlisted companies.

There is no doubt that you can make a lot of money in private equity. High risk leads to high rewards; the big hitters can and do make money. The early backers of Revolut turned a million into a billion, as the FT reported last week. On that basis, everybody should be having a go. What could go wrong? We all know that, in many cases, companies get loaded with debt and dividends are extracted; we have ended up with serial bankruptcies in the casual dining sector, for example, and Claire’s has gone bust twice in the last four months. I am not exactly sure the Government should be mandating this sort of thing by statute.

Putting that to one side, I have some experience through my membership of the Norfolk Pension Fund in private equity investment. I have been a board member since 2007. There are some big firms in this space; HarbourVest might be a name familiar to noble Lords but others are available, as it says in the adverts.

To participate in this space, you typically enter a 10-year commitment for quite a lot of money as a fund. You provide the fund manager cash certainty. He can go ahead and acquire smaller firms within the fund. You do not pony the money up front necessarily; it just needs to be available when the fund manager calls you to chip in. By and large, the fund manager finds the firms and invests that money, typically over the first four years of the indicative 10-year period. They then grow and nurture those firms until they can be sold for a profit—unless they go bust in the meantime, which many do.

At some point, 10 to a dozen years later, after all the surviving companies have passed on and the fund closes, all the money is returned to the pension fund. It is a well-trodden path and a proper asset class. This is why proposed new paragraph (g) in Amendment 121 is so important. These opportunities should be available to pension funds, but the Bill as currently constructed excludes them. It is madness. This is not what we need as a nation.

We need to go further. We need to be able to step in and help those founder-owned companies, together with local business angels, their families and friends, to get to the stage where HarbourVest can have a nibble. We need to make the small nibbles into larger fish. It is the scale-up issue. The exam question here is to identify good founder-led businesses locally and grow them. I declare an interest; I have been a director of New Anglia Capital Ltd, which was public sector, 100% owned by councils in Norfolk and Suffolk for the purposes of investing in early stage companies, taking them from a glint in the eye to the stage at which private equity might get involved. My goodness, it is hard. We have invested in bright prospects in life sciences, engineering, medical technology and clean energy. It is high risk, and I am told it carries the opportunities to make big returns—not that we have found them yet. But at least it carries that opportunity. As a nation we need to turn those cygnets into swans and those small acorns into mighty oak trees. The Bill should aim to do that, but it does not.

The conflict is with the press release that accompanied the Mansion House announcement. The Government’s own presser boasted:

“More than 50 scale-up businesses have signed a joint letter to the Chancellor welcoming the reforms as a ‘significant milestone in ensuring British institutions back British businesses at the scale required to generate growth, employment and wealth’”.


I feel sorry for the people who signed up that letter, because they were suckered. The Bill does little to scale up businesses and it has taken the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, to put proposed new paragraph (f) into the amendment so that the Government’s own press release can form part of the law.

Forcing everything to be large, as we have heard, makes it harder to get the boost for start-ups. Amendment 121 would remedy this. We need it not just for those start-up businesses: the founders, their families and friends and all those angels—important though they are. We need it for our provincial cities and market towns. These are the places with the gems that need to grow in pursuance of

“UK growth assets rather than wider overseas assets”,

as it says in the Member’s explanatory statement.

Without this amendment, Mansion House is a mirage. By this Bill the Government have done a confidence trick on those who believed there would be a flow of capital to these businesses. It is not too late to change course. I echo strongly the comments of the noble Baronesses, Lady Bowles and Lady Altmann, and note that we are in Committee. I think this Committee is doing valuable work, because it has set up the conversations we all need to have between now and Report. The Government can reflect on what they are trying to achieve and recognise that it will not be achieved by the Bill as currently constructed. We may then need to have a compromise that will actually do the thing we are here to do, which is to invest in Britain and have better, more secure futures for people who want to invest in pensions, not Lego sets or Star Wars characters.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted, for her forensic analysis of both the Mansion House Accord and the ways in which there is a significant mismatch between what is in that accord and what is in this Bill. I confess that I was not aware of the extent of that, so that analysis is really important; I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.

I would like to comment on whether investments in listed securities should be excluded; here, I will part company with many of my colleagues on this side of the Committee. I understand why they are excluded. It is because buying and selling shares in listed companies is just buying and selling a financial asset. The buying and selling of shares in UK-listed assets does nothing to put money into the UK economy.

However, the way in which this measure is drafted probably goes too far, because it is possible that companies could raise new capital—for the purpose of investing in some of the things where the Government wish to encourage new investors—and that those vehicles could be listed. The way in which the Government have approached this is possibly too extensive, but I certainly do not think that the simple buying and selling of financial assets aligns with getting productive investment into the economy. As the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, knows, I do not think that is a valid objective for this Bill—certainly not one that should override the need to get good returns for savers.