Water: Bills and Executive Remuneration

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

To ask Her Majesty's Government what assessment they have made of increases in customer water bills and levels of remuneration paid to water company executives.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, average water and sewerage bills fell in real terms from £420 in 2009-10 to £395 in 2017-18. Bills will continue to fall. Ofwat expects a further average reduction of 5% in 2020-25. The Government support Ofwat’s action to increase transparency of executive pay and bonuses, which must be based on better services for customers.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his reply, but he will know that water bills have risen by 40% above inflation since privatisation and nearly 2 million will need help to pay their water bills by 2020. Despite poor levels of customer service, water company bosses are paying themselves huge salaries and bonuses, with CEO pay averaging £1.2 million. Some of them are paid twice that amount. At the same time, water companies are hiding behind complex financial structures and offshore havens to avoid paying taxes. The Secretary of State has been critical of the water companies, but what is he actually doing on the ground to make sure that profits are focused on better preparation for weather extremes, not just paying excessive bonuses to the few?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Baroness’s question is extremely timely. Only today, Ofwat published a summary of the changes to the upcoming price review process, which were discussed with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, who agrees entirely with Ofwat’s actions. It will require companies to share the benefits of high levels of debt finance with customers, ensure that performance-related executive pay rewards genuinely stretching performance —which benefits customers—and be transparent about dividends and explain how they relate to costs and service delivery to customers. If necessary, we will go further.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests in the register; I also co-chair the All-Party Parliamentary Water Group. Does my noble friend the Minister agree that Britain was the dirty man of Europe in the 1980s and, through privatisation and EU environmental directives, we have now improved water quality? Going forward, what benchmarks will the Government use to continue to improve water quality in this country?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

As my noble friend said precisely, we wish to improve water quality. Let us be clear: since privatisation, customers are eight times less likely to suffer sewer flooding. The number of serious water pollution incidents caused by the water industry reduced significantly from over 500 in the early 1990s to 57 in 2016. Clearly, there is room for improvement. That is what both Ofwat and we in Defra want. In terms of what has been achieved with the £140 billion investment since privatisation, our water quality is improving and we want it to improve even more.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, in the latest published Ofwat figures, Yorkshire Water scored 12 out of 18 for customer satisfaction, yet the chief executive officer took home £1.3 million of pay, pension and bonus payments last year. That is seven times more than the Prime Minister. Can the Minister guarantee that the changes announced today by Ofwat will never allow a chief executive officer to be paid for such bad customer satisfaction in future?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am absolutely clear that Ofwat’s requirements of companies are very clear on the issue of performance-related executive pay. We are willing to take regulatory action to support Ofwat’s reforms if water companies do not readily co-operate.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that one way of reducing water bills would be for the water companies to reduce their dividends? Last year, Thames Water declared a £55 million dividend which then got paid to one of its holding companies and, through a complex chain, ended up at Macquarie. It then had the gall to say in its annual report:

“No dividends or interest on shareholder debt was paid to external shareholders”,


in the same year. Surely that is stretching truth and credulity much too far. Will the Minister do something about that, please?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I feel I am repeating exactly what Ofwat has announced, as it is the statutory regulator, in terms of its requirements on increasing transparency on both dividends and executive pay. We are absolutely clear that this is a public service provided under private ownership and there are responsibilities that go with that. There have been very considerable improvements since privatisation, but there is a wake-up call to the water companies.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, speaking as a former director of a water supply company, I ask whether my noble friend agrees that the level of investment by our privatised water companies has never been paralleled to the present position? Would he not also commend the actions of water companies that are now involved in active water transfer plans, such as those between the Kielder reservoir and Yorkshire?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, my noble friend has highlighted an issue that I think we need to hear more of, particularly as we look at climate change and increasing population. We need to secure more water transfers between water companies, which will build resilience and reduce the cost of meeting future demand. So I am very pleased with what is going on already, but the water companies need to work more and we need to increase our infrastructure.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is one part of this country, the United Kingdom, where we do not have any of these problems of highly paid water executives, because under successive Governments of different parties, water has remained in public ownership—and that is Scotland?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Well, your Lordships know that I am very keen on Scotland, but I entirely disagree with the noble Lord about privatisation.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Come to Scotland!

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Privatisation has permitted us £140 billion. There are so many examples of what the investment was before privatisation. The noble Lord shakes his noble head, but privatisation has made a very considerable difference to water quality, the quality of our beaches and the reduction in water pollution. However, there is more to do.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, on the question of Scotland, where the investment has to come from government and not from the private sector, could that explain why the Scottish Government have not spent their Barnett allocation on the health service? Is it because they have had to divert money down the other pipes?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My noble friend has given a much better answer than mine, and the noble Lord is still shaking his noble head.

Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006 Committee Report

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Monday 2nd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my farming interests as stated in the register.

I thank the committee for its report, and I very much welcomed the opportunity to give evidence earlier this year. We took on board many of the report’s recommendations and, although we have not accepted them all, we are nevertheless grateful to the committee for its work and for the thoroughness with which it has approached its task. It has shone a welcome spotlight on our rural areas. As Minister for Rural Affairs, I place supreme importance on the well-being of rural communities. Therefore, in the words of a noble Lord today, I speak up for the countryside, and I also hope that I am constructive. I very much look forward to engaging with the recently established committee, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, which will take forward this work with its inquiry into the rural economy.

When I arrived at Defra we went to something called a town hall meeting—when my officials told me we had to go there, I thought that I had gone to the wrong department. In my speech I said: “I look to Defra being a helping hand and not a heavy one”. I therefore take very seriously indeed all the points made by your Lordships. It will not be possible for me to address them in the time I am allocated, but I promise that there will be a response to all the points that have been made.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, spoke so eloquently in his opening in praise of country people. I agree entirely. The Government are committed to bringing sustainable growth to our rural areas, so that people who live in the countryside have the same opportunities as those who live in urban areas, and without detriment to the environment and its heritage. Our rural areas contribute nearly £250 billion to England’s economy. Half a million businesses—one quarter of the total—are registered in rural areas. I entirely agree with the analysis given by my noble friend Lady Byford of the economic engine. In fact, proportionately more people are employed by small firms in rural areas than in urban areas. Employment in rural areas is higher than the UK average and unemployment is lower, and well-being is also higher. There is a very strong sense of community, which is typified by the spirit of volunteers around the country who help with transport for those less able or who run the village shop or hall as a hub for the community.

I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick of Undercliffe, that I recently had a meeting with Paula Vennells, the chief executive of the Post Office. My understanding is that the total number of post offices has risen by 16 to 11,659, and that is very much because of the collocation work that the Post Office is undertaking. My experience is that my local post office, which collocated to the convenience store, is now open many more hours than it was before. Therefore, it is an interesting picture and I am watching it very closely.

However, I acknowledge that, as all your Lordships know, there are challenges to rural life, many of which were highlighted during this inquiry and in this debate. Although the Government met their target for the provision of access to superfast broadband by 95% of premises by the end of 2017, and mobile phone operators reached their target for voice calls to cover 90% of the UK’s land-mass by the same date, I am acutely aware that the figures need to be improved. That is why we have legislated for a universal service obligation to act as a safety net for those without broadband connections, and Ofcom is looking at attaching obligations on mobile phone companies to improve 4G coverage. I am grateful that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, raised the point about broadband, because we are seeing improvements but we want them to go much further.

I very much agree with the points about affordable housing. I should perhaps declare an interest. My maiden speech was in a debate on rural housing, and I facilitated a housing development on the farm. Because it is Rural Housing Week, I shall be visiting a scheme on Friday, and I am very much looking forward to that.

We need to ensure that the people working to look after Exmoor live in Exford and do not have to live in Exeter. We also need to ensure that rural communities can survive, with young people remaining in villages. Our recent changes to permitted development rights mean that up to five new homes can be created from existing agricultural buildings on a farm, rather than the current maximum of three. It is also why the housing White Paper has a strong rural narrative, and the draft National Planning Policy Framework has a rural chapter. I am very seized of the importance of rural housing schemes and ensuring that the school roll is vibrant, which again is a positive feature of a flourishing village—something that we all want.

We are clearly all united on the importance of effective rural proofing, and the Government are strongly committed to it. The noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, was a key contributor to the rural policy guidance document, which I and other Ministers from Defra took to the Cabinet Office Minister to discuss. The committee suggested that the Cabinet Office should take over responsibility for rural proofing. Indeed, it went further and proposed that responsibility for rural policy should move from Defra to the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government. That is clearly not a decision for me. However, although rural proofing should be the responsibility of all departments, I believe that there are strong reasons why Defra is best placed to lead on rural affairs. I do not see rural policy as operating in a silo separate from either agriculture or the environment. To me, they are absolutely interdependent.

I of course recognise that the range of businesses and interests in rural areas goes beyond farming, but farming is still a backbone, shaping the environment and landscape, which in turn is an economic beacon for rural tourism. In upland areas in England, where the challenges are often greatest, 41% of businesses and 23% of employment are in the agriculture, forestry and fishing sectors. In Health and Harmony—the biggest consultation on agriculture, with 44,000 responses—we asked explicitly about the challenges facing rural communities, particularly those in the remotest parts of the country. Of course, like many other departments, the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government has a strong interest in rural issues—and, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans mentioned, it is clearly essential that Defra works closely with MHCLG on housing, local government finance and the proposed UK shared prosperity fund.

In her commentary on rural proofing, my noble friend Lady Byford said Defra acts as a champion for rural proofing across government and supports departments so that policies take account of specific challenges and opportunities for rural communities. This is not an academic exercise: it is about achieving real benefits for those who live and work in rural areas, and I will take up the practical point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, about the National Citizen Service. When decisions and policies are sent round for collective agreement, other departments know that we in Defra will be taking rural interests into account. It is not necessarily about delivering exactly the same outcomes for rural areas. The cost of providing basic services, as we acknowledge, is more expensive because of demography, sparsity and distance. We know that rural households are often further from hospitals, for example. But it is about showing that government departments have thought about how rural areas are different and how policies may need to be adapted.

For example, the new schools funding formula has reduced the gap between urban and rural schools. The Department for Education is testing out new work placement schemes in rural areas in the north-west and the south-west. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, that the rural services delivery grant for the current financial year is £81 million—the highest level ever and an increase of £31 million on the original allocation.

So I assure noble Lords that all Ministers in Defra are banging the rural drum. I am backed by a superb team of officials and I assure noble Lords that they are very committed to rural interests being at the heart of our department. We are able to draw on the work of not only Natural England, the Environment Agency and the Forestry Commission, but so many others who are active in rural areas. My own experience, as someone who has a deep personal commitment to the countryside, is that there is a deep recognition and understanding among many Ministers in other departments, many of whom have rural constituencies. So it is really important that Defra has these close and effective relationships across Whitehall. That is why I am on the ministerial task force on digital and on housing and am now a member of the new cross-government department team looking at loneliness. We are working with BEIS to bring about the rural dimension of the industrial strategy and making sure that we are involved in clean growth issues, and it is important to champion the UK’s food and drinks sector, which has its roots in rurality.

My officials and I have close engagement with organisations representing rural communities and businesses. Defra funds ACRE, with its network of 38 rural community councils across England. I have held a number of really outstanding meetings with a broad range of rural stakeholders on well-being, digital connectivity and the rural economy, and will soon hold two similar ones on loneliness and transport. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, that in the end it is the sharing of knowledge, experience and good practice that will develop the solutions that work on the ground in rural areas. That is exactly what we need to fine tune. We need to get the solutions that work. That is why I agree with all noble Lords—I think that the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, led the charge—about a strong evidence base being essential. Defra will continue to publish data to help a much wider appreciation of rural issues. We have set up a rural academic panel. As we stated in our response, we will also produce clarity on rural research requirements to which we hope academia and the research councils will be able to respond. To respond to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans and my noble friend Lord Caithness, we intend to publish the statement of research priorities in the autumn.

A number of noble Lords rightly raised the natural environment. My noble friend Lord Caithness referred to the publication of the 25-year environment plan and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, quite rightly wants action—as I do. That is why the review has been launched of our national parks and other designated areas of natural beauty—the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, is on the advisory panel. We have appointed a tree champion. We will also be making 2019 a year of green action, putting children and young people at its heart. The noble Baroness is absolutely right: we need and will be setting out how that will be progressed so that all noble Lords can feel that this is an action plan that has results.

Almost all noble Lords raised the governance gap for environmental protection. The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Parminter and Lady Young of Old Scone, made particular points. Since the committee published its report, we launched a consultation on a new environmental principles and governance Bill, which will make sure that environmental protections will not be weakened as we leave the EU. This will establish a world-leading body to hold the Government to account for environmental outcomes. Although it will be funded by the Government, it will be independent. I understand the frustration, but I cannot pre-empt the consultation and the consideration of all responses. I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and noble Lords that I have heard all they have said on this particular matter.

The committee made a number of recommendations about the role of Natural England. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, and my noble friend Lady Byford that I can confirm that a communications protocol is currently being agreed with Natural England, which will codify ways of working with the Defra group to protect the integrity and independence of Natural England’s voice and brand. Clearly, Natural England has transformed its approach so that it deploys its resources strategically for the greatest positive impact and to deliver its statutory functions. Natural England is a separate legal identity and may exercise its legal powers in pursuit of anything that falls within its general purpose. This independence is in line with Natural England’s statutory remit.

The committee expressed its concerns about the long-term sustainability of the national trails network, which the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, raised. We are committed to finding a long-term and secure future for our national trails. We will work with interested organisations to explore options such as sponsorship that the committee suggested. Natural England is also working hard to complete the English coast path by 2020 and I am looking forward to a visit in north Yorkshire later this month to see further stretches connected. On the question of charging from my noble friend Lady Byford, the Government will consider as part of our planning for the 2019 spending review what charges could assist Natural England’s charging strategy. That is under consideration.

The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, and my noble friend Lord Caithness mentioned the vexed issue of green lanes. I appreciate that and have met the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, before on this matter. The motor vehicle stakeholder working group will meet in October. Obviously, we want there to be as much consensus as possible, because that is the way in the countryside that most of us find a way through. This is about trying to find those solutions. I am aware that it is a knotty challenge for some of the characters involved on all sides of this issue, but surely it must be right that having these quarterly meetings with the stakeholder working group helps us to try to find some consensus in the key areas on which there can be agreement so that we find a resolution. We want to ensure that green lanes are suitable for purpose and can be used by ever more people.

A number of noble Lords have raised the issue of the Countryside Stewardship Scheme. I am well aware of some of the concerns that have been expressed and my ministerial colleagues and I are alive to the issues as we go around the country. I hope that many key stakeholders—indeed, I can be confident about the number—now recognise that the simplified offers for the 2018 countryside stewardship application have been welcomed by the NFU and by the industry. I am very clear that the work in countryside stewardship and environmental advancement is going to be hugely important. It is the way forward whether it be health and harmony, environment, land management—indeed, all the areas that we in this House will be considering later on. This is going to be very important work for us.

The committee raised the issue of biodiversity. The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, in particular mentioned the phrase “natural capital”. In areas such as flood resilience we are seeing a much greater understanding of the phrase and are attaching importance to it. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, and my noble friend Lord Caithness, I should say first that through commitments to strengthen the duty on public bodies, we wish to embed a principle of net gain within the planning system. This will address many of the issues which have sometimes made housing and development a problem. This will lead to a net gain within the housing system.

Secondly, we will publish supplementary information to accompany our guidance on the biodiversity duty, setting out how public bodies can further the ambitions of the 25-year environment plan. We will continue to work in partnership to help public bodies take action and to protect and enhance the environment. I have to say to noble Lords that if I had more time, I could outline many examples of this. Addressing the decline in biodiversity is a priority for the Government.

In conclusion, I have spoken about landscapes, the environment, farming, the rural economy and services, but in the end it all comes down to people and the communities they create. We need to see proper recognition of the communities on whom we rely for so much. They should have the same opportunities as those in urban areas and their needs and challenges need to be taken properly into account. That is our ambition in government, and it is my ambition, given that I have the privilege of being the Minister for Rural Affairs and the rural ambassador. Given all the differences and challenges in your Lordships’ House, I believe that we are united in the purpose of seeking a very strong and vibrant future for the rural communities not only of England but of the whole of the United Kingdom. We owe them a great deal and it is our task to ensure that they have a buoyant future.

Songbirds

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Thursday 28th June 2018 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on giving us a lead to share our delight in songbirds and I acknowledge their importance. I have to say that I had always thought that “All the way with LBJ” referred to an American President, but I am now better informed.

Songbirds are a much-loved part of our wildlife and are to be found in a diverse range of habitats: farms, wetlands, woodlands, gardens and urban parks. The crescendo of the dawn chorus and birds feeding in our gardens, the robin and the blackbird waiting alongside the garden fork appeal to our senses. Indeed, the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, gave us a fascinating account of his early years with birds.

Songbirds are a diverse group of around 300 species of small to medium-sized birds, making up just under half of the UK’s bird species. We should be concerned about the decline in many species of songbirds since the 1970s. The trend since the mid-1990s is more mixed with a low or no overall change in abundance, although while many populations are now stable or increasing, some individual species have continued to decline. For instance, I see more goldfinches and long-tailed tits but fewer greenfinches. I am delighted this year to have two nests of spotted flycatchers on the front of the house. Declines in songbirds are due to a combination of factors, including changes in land management practice, land drainage, loss of biodiversity, overgrazing by deer in woodlands and invasive non-native species. All have had an impact.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, raised the important factor of the effect of climate change on migratory bird species, and only today a report has been produced on our efforts in our military bases in Cyprus and the steps being taken. The UK’s network of 273 special protection areas protects the most vulnerable and threatened wild bird species and their habitats, while our network of sites of special scientific interest provide valuable habitats for a range of bird species. Indeed, overall 3.3 million hectares of land in England are protected, providing important habitat for species.

In the wider landscape, agri-environment schemes are the principal mechanisms by which we support the conservation of songbirds by providing food and nesting resources. Since 2015, over 2,000—or nearly half—of new countryside stewardship agreements included the wild pollinator and farm wildlife package. The Forestry Commission and Natural England have produced countryside stewardship woodland bird guidance for applicants, to create the optimum conditions for songbirds, such as tree pipits and the wood warbler.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, spoke of some of the clear evidence of successful recovery of some farmland birds due to land management funded by the agri-environment schemes. My experience is now with advances in agri-tech and precision farming, basing our decisions on pesticides on independent and the best available scientific advice. That is the basis on which we will take these matters forward.

An independent study in 2012 found that provision of winter food resources with over-winter stubble and wild bird seed crops resulted in a positive effect in local populations, as I saw on a visit to the Cotswolds, when seeing a profusion of linnets and yellowhammers. Indeed, I am reminded of the work at Loddington, to which my noble friends Lord Caithness and Lord Shrewsbury referred. I am very much looking forward to a forthcoming visit to Arundel to see what our noble friend the Duke of Norfolk is undertaking on his estates.

Another interesting point of success—we are always very worried about the declines, and rightly so—is the ninefold increase in the numbers of cirl buntings. Indeed, a new reintroduction in Cornwall of now over 1,000 birds is considered the first successful songbird reintroduction in Europe. My noble friend Lord Caithness has highlighted concerns about the impact of predator control and its effectiveness, and has suggested that we should consider our options in this matter. I share the view that targeted management of predators, using a mix of land management methods, can benefit the conservation of bird species, especially ground-nesting species.

I am also conscious of ecosystems and the natural world, in the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, and I very much hope that she will be involved in “Bees’ Needs” week. She will forgive me if I do not go down her line of country in terms of land ownership, because I would definitely be on a different page. However, we are united in wanting the best for the natural world.

Leaving the EU, whatever our view, undoubtedly presents an opportunity to devise new environmental land management schemes as a cornerstone of future agricultural policy. I was, of course, particularly taken with what the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, said of his experiences in the Flow Country, and how success can be secured with what I call sensible collaboration with all interested parties. That point was also made by my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury.

In the 25-year environment plan, we are committed to developing a strategy for nature covering our land and freshwater habitats and to take forward our international commitments to halt the loss of biodiversity. As with Biodiversity 2020, the new strategy will seek to enhance our natural habitats, and ensure conservation and recovery.

My noble friend Lord Caithness referred to planning and the potential use of buffer strips. Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, made the point in terms of the urban situation as well. The Government are looking at how embedding a net-gain principle in planning could contribute to nature recovery alongside facilitating housing development. This approach could help to address the impact of development on songbird habitats by improving incentives to retain habitats within development sites or by increasing the amount of habitat enhanced or created.

My noble friend Lord Caithness also mentioned cats, and the joint project between SongBird Survival and Exeter University to look at this issue in more depth. Last week, when I attended the all-party group that deals with cat welfare, I was brave enough to raise this matter and explain that there would be a debate in your Lordships’ House on songbirds. My officials and I are very interested to see what the Exeter study concludes.

Invasive non-native species such as grey squirrels and muntjac deer have had a profound impact on songbirds and can undermine conservation. The pipits and pintails are back in such numbers in South Georgia—where I would love to go one day—for one reason: we tackled the invader. It is extraordinary how nature has recovered so dramatically in but a few years. I have seen at first hand the impact muntjac have had in the overgrazing of the under canopy, which means that nesting sites for birds such as the nightingale are disappearing.

My noble friend Lord Caithness has raised the matter of the loss of songbirds. Our country has long been the most active country in Europe in addressing invasive non-native species. The EU invasive alien species regulation, which our country was instrumental in developing, sets out strict restrictions on the keeping and sale of species listed under the regulation, as well as prohibiting their release to the environment. To me, biosecurity means that a key priority must be to reduce the risk of new species entering the country and to control the spread of a number of established species.

Under the joint grey squirrel action plan for England, Defra and the Forestry Commission are committed to working with landowners and other organisations to implement a package of measures to support targeted grey squirrel control. We should thank my noble friend Lord Kinnoull and all those involved in the Squirrel Accord for what they are doing. He referred to research into the development of an immuno-contraceptive. The research continues to progress well, and I acknowledge the exceptional scientists who are so engaged in this vital work. APHA is working with the UK Squirrel Accord and its donors. The formulation for the vaccine has now been identified and tests are under way with captive grey squirrels to ascertain the longevity of the vaccine and identify any potential side-effects.

I am informed that there are more deer in this country than at any time since the Norman conquest. We believe that the management of deer is clearly best carried out by local deer management groups, so that the natural flora and fauna are kept in balance. My observation is that traditional country people—who care about the land and about wildlife—appreciate that it is all about balance. If something in nature becomes out of balance, problems start to occur, as we are seeing in some areas with corvids and magpies in particular. Deer species such as the muntjac are causing damage because of their prolific breeding. It is important to look at these matters through the Deer Initiative, which brings together local groups to ensure that deer management is sustainable and effective.

We humans have the capacity to do much good. We also have the capacity to do extraordinary harm to the natural world. It is surely the responsibility of all of us to act as good custodians of the natural world and to foster it for future generations. My noble friend Lord Caithness mentioned education. This is an issue about which the next generation feels very strongly. The balance and management of nature and the wise use of land is so important. It requires a collaborative approach at home and abroad between the different UK Administrations and landowners, farmers, non-governmental organisations and members of the public. Songbirds are surely a true glory of our natural heritage. Everyone should be able to enjoy ready access to a better environment with an increasingly healthy songbird population. That is our task and our responsibility. I am so grateful to my noble friend Lord Caithness for ensuring we could debate this.

Bee Population

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Tuesday 19th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Bloomfield is undoubtedly to be congratulated—as your Lordships have done—on securing this debate which, as ever, has been enriched by your Lordships’ own experiences. I agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland. Many of us here come to this afresh and have learned a great deal, whether it is through references to literature, history, politics, architecture or health. In particular, I shall take away the practical advice of my noble friend Lord Marland and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, with her Welsh blacks—which I always thought were cattle until this evening—and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara.

The well-being of bees and other pollinators has been in the public consciousness a great deal over the last few years. People value bees and other pollinators in their own right but they are also vital for the growth of our wildflowers and our crops. I was struck by what the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, and my noble friend Lady Bloomfield said about the 1,500 species of pollinators’ annual contribution to UK oil seed, fruit and vegetable crop production, which is, to my understanding, valued at up to £700 million a year.

For many reasons, protecting bees and pollinators is a priority for this Government, and I particularly welcome the generous remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and my noble friend Lord Framlingham about the national pollinator strategy and the wider biodiversity strategy. I, in turn, commend the more than 30 members of our Pollinator Advisory Steering Group—representing conservation groups, farmers, beekeepers and researchers—for their supreme efforts and expertise in helping us to deliver the strategy’s successes thus far.

The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, referred a great deal to research in her speech and we are fortunate that outstanding scientists help us monitor our collective efforts, including the Pollinator Monitoring and Research Partnership of academics and NGOs which Defra has helped to establish.

My noble friend Lord Ridley and the noble Baroness Lady Miller referred to the numbers. My understanding from the Government’s own indicators is that the confirmed long-term decline in the abundance and distribution of pollinating insects at a national scale has stabilised in recent years. However, we are clearly determined to continue working to see ever more positive results. Local level data collected by volunteers is also available, supported by public bodies, including the Joint Nature Conservation Committee and the research councils.

A number of your Lordships, including my noble friend Lady Bloomfield and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, referred to our 25-year environment plan setting a goal to create or restore 500,000 hectares of wildlife-rich habitat outside the protected site network. What we have heard from my noble friends Lord Ridley and Lord Robathan is an example of two noble Lords giving a personal lead in this matter. Government research shows that increases in pollinator numbers and diversity follow such increases in habitat.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, rightly asked whether the Government are playing their part—an important point, given the considerable land holdings in the public estate. In 2016 the Ministry of Justice created more than 20 hectares of wildflower meadow, and now manages more than 50 sites with native habitats for pollinators. The Ministry of Defence has established areas for pollinators to thrive, collaborating with organisations that include Plantlife, National Parks, the Wildlife Trust and indeed its tenant farmers. These are but two of a range of areas and it is very important that the Government are joined up and that we collaborate as one in a common purpose.

My noble friend Lord Robathan raised the particular issue of agri-environment schemes. Since 2011, these schemes have played a huge role in helping landowners already to establish more than 100,000 hectares of land for restoration to flower-rich habitat. The Countryside Stewardship scheme is often woven into partnership initiatives such as Buglife’s B-Lines, referred to by my noble friend Lady Bloomfield, as well as through farmer clusters, which have been developed by the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust with support from Natural England for farmers, landowners, managers and foresters to help develop shared plans for nature. For example, at Martin Down National Nature Reserve, 36 farmers have linked grassland habitats so successfully that since 2016, three new colonies of the scarce small blue butterfly have been established. The Bumblebee Conservation Trust, through working to reintroduce the short-haired bumblebee, has created more than 1,300 flower-rich hectares and has already seen other bumblebee species arriving on site which have not been seen for 40 years. Defra’s “Health and Harmony” consultation on agricultural policy gives us the opportunity to explore how farmers can continue to benefit pollinators and wider biodiversity, and of course contribute to successful food production.

I turn now to honey bees. We are protecting honey bees through the Healthy Bees Plan and the National Bee Unit. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, my noble friend Lord Marland and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson—the beekeepers of this House—stressed the importance of education. The educational output of the National Bee Unit last year increased to 190 courses, benefiting 9,000 beekeepers. It is aided by partnerships with the British Beekeepers’ Association, the national diploma in beekeeping and the Bee Farmers Association, to whose apprenticeship scheme Defra last year gave around £20,000. The beekeepers of the House may be particularly interested in that. Having sampled it, I can thoroughly recommend what is known as “noble House honey” from the two beehives just along the way here.

I should have said in response to points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, about habitat that, in line with the Housing Minister’s May statement, there is absolutely no intention of watering down wildlife protections. The NPPF is out for consultation and before it is finalised, we will make sure that the protection of local wildlife sites is crystal clear. Defra officials continue to work closely with MHCLG to address the issue, and of course we will share the letter not only with the noble Baroness, but with all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate.

Perhaps I may make a number of points in response to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, on NBU inspections. These are important in helping us to manage pests like the Varroa mite, keep endemic diseases like foulbrood at low levels, and ensure that exotic pests such as the small hive beetle are absent from the United Kingdom.

My noble friend Lord Framlingham quite rightly raised the issue of the Asian hornet. It is an insect for which I have zero tolerance. It requires constant vigilance, immediate containment action and public engagement via the Asian Hornet Watch app. We are absolutely fully seized of the threat of the Asian hornet. There is every opportunity to raise awareness, for example through important collaboration with beekeepers and the app. A number of people have reported their concerns about Asian hornets—thankfully, almost all of them were not Asian hornets—but that collaboration will help us to ensure that we keep Asian hornets at bay and ensure biosecurity at all times.

Many of your Lordships have expressed opinions about pesticides. I thought that my noble friend Lord Ridley would express the views he had. I want to say, candidly, that as far as pesticides, which include insecticides, are concerned, the Government will always base their decisions on the best scientific evidence available. I say to the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley and Lady Jones of Whitchurch, that we will draw advice from the Health and Safety Executive and the UK Expert Committee on Pesticides.

My noble friend Lady Bloomfield cited a report by the European Commission Joint Research Centre. To my understanding, the report was published in August last year in the peer-reviewed journal Pest Management Studies. The report looked at a small number of sites and crops in Europe and spoke about the increased use of pyrethroids and changes to cultural practices, such as sowing densities or seed-bed preparations. It is worth noting that increases in pyrethroid use have not been detected in national pesticide usage surveys in England. Again, pyrethroids are subject to rigorous regulation and authorised for use only where scientific assessment finds no unacceptable effects on the environment. However, I agree with my noble friend Lord Ridley that we should continue to monitor the consequences of the neonicotinoid ban and help farmers to adapt. I could say much more but it is not possible with the time I have. We will always base our decisions on the scientific evidence that we receive from our expert committee.

With the time I have left, I want to say that Defra’s annual “Bees’ Needs” campaign encourages us all to provide food and a home for pollinators. I will ensure that all noble Lords receive further information on it. This year, with immense gratitude to Shaftesbury plc, London’s Carnaby Street—part of Shaftesbury’s Carnaby urban wildlife haven—will be renamed “Carnabee Street” from 9 to 15 July. I hope to encourage your Lordships to be part of that. Importantly, we will also celebrate the next generation of pollinator protectors such as Saint Alban’s CE Primary School and its “Pollinator Promise”, which asks people to dedicate a square-metre plot to grow plants for pollinators. So far, pupils, parents, neighbours, churches, companies, civil servants and this Minister have signed up.

I very much hope that the message in this exceptional debate from your Lordships, whether from experience of being stung or otherwise, is an example of what pollinators bring to us. I will answer in full the many questions that I have not attended to because of the time limit, because it is important that this is carried forward. Pollinators are an essential part of the ecosystem; they are also essential for food production. I cannot think of a better cause to unite us than this matter. I thank my noble friend Lady Bloomfield for gathering us together in such harmony.

House adjourned at 7.59 pm.

Flood Risk

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Monday 11th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and refer to my interests in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, between 2015 and 2021, we are investing £2.6 billion in managing flood risk, including 1,500 flood defence schemes using both hard engineering and natural flood management solutions. As a result, 300,000 homes, 690,000 acres of agricultural land, 279 miles of railway and more than 5,000 miles of roads will be better protected. A further £1 billion is being spent to maintain defences.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

Will my noble friend look favourably on the report to be published next week, entitled Bricks and Water, by the Westminster Sustainable Business Forum, the two central conclusions of which are that that the new environmental body will have real teeth when it comes to upholding environmental standards in flood protection and that farmers could be reimbursed for public good, such as retaining water on land? I know that my noble friend and the Department are keen on natural flood defences such as Pickering’s Slowing the Flow, and I hope that that will be the model.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, we are consulting on the new body, but we have strong aspirations, particularly with our 25-year environment plan, to enhance the environment, and of course that involves reducing risk from natural hazards such as flooding. Given the responses to the Health and Harmony consultation on future farming arrangements, we are also exploring ways to incentivise farming methods that reduce flood risk. Slowing the Flow, at Pickering, to which my noble friend refers, is a good example of natural flood management.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the flooding of Millbank House and its subsequent closure shows how quickly flash flooding can affect any infrastructure, particularly vital infrastructure. We know that tube stations, electricity substations and so on have been knocked out in the past. Has a national survey been done of vital infrastructure where flooding could knock out services, what steps are being taken to ensure that we protect it from flash flooding, and when can we be assured that the things that keep the country moving will be protected in the longer term? What is the deadline for doing all the repair and protection of that infrastructure that will allow us to sleep more soundly in our beds?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, surface water is often much more difficult to forecast than flooding from rivers. Obviously, flash flooding has occurred, but following earlier floods the National Flood Resilience Review, published in September 2016, specifically examined the scale of flood risk and the resilience of infrastructure to flooding. That is why there are many examples of utility companies and other national infrastructure locations ensuring, rightly, that their assets are better protected from flooding. Much of this work will continue for the long term: adapting to climate change, changing with coastal erosion and deciding where the coast is to retreat and where we need to replenish. All this is part of a cocktail that we will always continue to consider.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, I know that the Minister is well aware of the value of trees in general and regarding flooding in particular. I again urge him to do all he can to encourage tree planting in areas that are liable to flood.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Undoubtedly. To go back to Slowing the Flow at Pickering, tree planting was part of that process. It is about crops to be grown, trees and buffer zones. We are increasingly realising that there are all sorts of ways in which natural capital is a resource for us to use, and that we can work with farmers and landowners to support it.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

Flooding can be devastating for businesses, homeowners and tenants. The cost to business can sometimes result in the business folding. Despite flood risk measures, many retailers and businesses have been flooded several times. As Flood Re applies only to domestic properties that cannot get insurance due to flood risk, do the Government have any plans to introduce a scheme that would help hard-pressed businesses which also suffer from the continual threat of flooding?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, whether it affects families, communities or businesses, clearly flooding is devastating and the clear-up can be very much a long-term affair for many. That is precisely why the business-led Property Flood Resilience Roundtable published an action plan in 2016. It is now working on a flood resilience code of practice—this is really important for places such as York, which unfortunately flood very frequently—and how to adapt the electricity supply, for example, so that if there is future flooding, recovery is much speedier. That is the way forward.

[Lord Stone of Blackheath (Lab)]

I am not sure whether I heard properly, but in spite of the United Nations World Water Development Report, which promotes very favourable natural solutions for water, both ecologically and financially, did the Minister say that out of £2.2 billion, we are spending only £15 million on natural-based solutions? If so, can we think again?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I did not talk about £15 million, but there are some specific projects involving natural capital and the £15 million that I did not mention. But, the £2.6 billion includes both hard engineering and the use of natural capital in the scheme. So, the £15 million is about specific, often community- led projects.

Transport Emissions in Urban Areas

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I shall repeat as a Statement an Answer given to an Urgent Question in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, on improving transport emissions in our urban areas. The Statement is as follows:

“Air pollution is the greatest environmental threat to human health in this country and the fourth biggest public health killer after cancer, obesity and heart disease. Today marks the publication of the latest stage in this Government’s determined efforts to reduce and reverse the effects of air pollution on our health and on our natural environment. Our clean air strategy consultation, published today, outlines steps that we can all take to reduce the emission of harmful gases and particulate matter from all the sources that contribute to polluted air. It is important to recognise, as I know my honourable friend does, that air pollution is generated by a wide variety of sources: from the fuel used for domestic heating to the application of fertilisers on agricultural land; and from the use of chemicals in industry to sea, rail, air and road transport. The strategy published today outlines specific steps that we can take to reduce the use of the most polluting fuels, to manage better the use of manures and slurries on agricultural land and also to ensure that non-road mobile machinery is also effectively policed, among other measures.

Also, my honourable friend asks specifically about urban transport pollution and of course last year the Government published their UK plan for tackling roadside nitrogen dioxide concentrations. The plan allocated over £3 billion to help reduce harmful NOx emissions, including £475 million to local authorities to enable them to develop their own air quality plans. Since then we have been working with local authorities to help them deliver specific solutions and have issued ministerial directions to 61 local authorities to ensure that they live up to their shared responsibilities.

Our plan, of course, committed us to phasing out the sale of conventional diesel and petrol cars by 2040 and taking them off the road altogether by 2050. This is more ambitious than any EU requirement and puts Britain in the lead among major developed economies.

Alongside that commitment, we are dedicating £1.5 billion to the development of zero-and ultra-low emission vehicles, including support for new charging points across the country. We were, of course, helped in the preparation of our clean air strategy by the excellent report produced by the chairs of the Health, Transport, and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committees, which was published earlier this year. In their excellent report on air quality, the Joint Select Committees recommended introducing a new Clean Air Act, and we will introduce primary legislation to clean up our air. They suggested that we initiate a new health campaign and we will, as the Secretary of State for Health has emphasised, introduce a personal messaging system to ensure that those most at risk receive the information that they need about pollution risks.

It was also recommended that we place health and environment at the centre of our strategy, rather than simply technical compliance, and we do that with ambitious new targets that match World Health Organization metrics on improving air quality. We were also asked to reduce emissions from tyres and braking, the so-called Oslo effect, and today we announced action to work with manufacturers to do just that.

Emissions have fallen consistently since 2010, and my predecessors in this role are to be commended for the action that they have taken. But today’s strategy marks the most ambitious steps yet to accelerate our progress towards cleaner air, and I commend it to the House”.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Statement. He will know that the Question focused on transport emissions because of their glaring omission from today’s published clean air strategy. Defra’s own research makes it clear that the quickest way to tackle nitrogen oxide pollution is to introduce a network of clean air zones in urban areas. Can the Minister explain why this Government are adamantly refusing to take this action?

At the same time, there is an urgent need to phase out diesel cars and vans. The Government’s current target is a very unambitious 2040. Does the Minister accept that it is both feasible and desirable to bring that date forward?

Finally, today’s clean air strategy has been produced in part to satisfy the courts, which have demanded urgent action. Does the noble Lord recognise the important role that courts can play in defending environmental standards? Will his Government now pledge to support our amendment, giving greater powers, including recourse to court action, to the UK green watchdog post Brexit?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this is an extremely ambitious strategy. New legislation will be introduced to give local government new powers to take decisive action. We have deliberately said that this is for local government because, with the funds that we are providing of £3.5 billion, we want to work with local government because we think that that is the place where local decisions can be best made. That is why we need to work in partnership—and we are intending to, because that is how we will receive the greatest remedy.

The noble Baroness suggested that, in effect, the Government were not proceeding with vigour. In fact, we are bringing forward some of the most ambitious proposals for any developed economy. Many of them exceed what other EU countries are doing—and I think that that is very important indeed.

On the point about the courts, clearly we are mindful of what court proceedings have said. We were very pleased that the court in the last case acknowledged the right course of action. Where it did not agree was in saying that we should have directed local authorities, which we have now done; we will work with 61 local authorities where the most concern is directed. That is precisely where we will solve a lot of problems, particularly of nitrogen dioxide. Certainly, that is what we intend to do.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the endless repetition of the mantra that this is ambitious and that the Government are world leading does not convince anyone. The truth of the matter is that 50% overall of roadside pollution by nitrogen oxide, and 80% in dense urban areas, is caused by transport, which is largely omitted from today’s announcement.

Is the Minister aware that, in the last three months, sales of petrol vehicles have soared to fill the gap left by diesel ones, which people are deserting because they have become aware of their emissions? Yet, by buying petrol vehicles, they are now creating pollution from CO₂, which has been the subject of so much concern in the past. Do the Government realise that what they are doing by their laissez-faire approach is far too little, far too late? Producing a date of 2040 for ending the sale of petrol and diesel vehicles means that the Government are dragging along in the wake of the motor industry, which is working very much faster than that.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I dispute what the noble Baroness has said. I have figures here from when my party and hers were in government, which include considerable reductions in air pollution since 2010. I wonder whether the noble Baroness wishes not to acknowledge the reduction of, for instance, 27% in nitrogen oxide from 2010 to 2016. So progress is being made, but we want to make more. The noble Baroness shakes her head, but I would have thought she would have been pleased about the investment of £1.5 billion to position the UK at the global forefront of all ultra-low emission vehicle development, manufacture and use. We are doing all these things and we are world leaders in this. Our investment in ultra-low emission vehicles may not be recognised by some in your Lordships’ House but it is recognised by other countries. We are going to ensure that, with increased electric charging, these vehicles will replace conventional combustion engine ones.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that one of the causes of extra emissions is traffic congestion? Am I the only Member of your Lordships’ House who feels that there are an increasing number of occasions when local authorities and others close roads and are extremely slow to reopen them after the work has been done? Can I direct him to come with me to Parliament Street and Whitehall, where there is an absolutely classic illustration of that problem? One drain has been repaired, the south side of the carriageway is completely closed and there is serious congestion in Horse Guards Avenue. I talked to the people who were removing the barriers, in a rather leisurely way, work having finished some time this morning, and said: “When is this going to reopen?” They said, “Midnight tonight”. There ought to be an arrangement when, if the work finishes early, there is a messaging system and roads can be reopened swiftly, so that the traffic can flow and we can then end the congestion that otherwise occurs when there are these blockages.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I entirely agree with my noble friend and will pick that up with TfL and the Department for Transport. As my noble friend rightly identified, congestion is a cause of pollution, as is the idling of vehicles. I am pleased that the City of Westminster has issued an edict about idling and turning engines off. This is very helpful.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, 2040 to 2050 is still a long way away. I appreciate that one has to develop infrastructure so that there are charging points for electric vehicles. However, could we not have made an immediate decision to encourage the use of hybrid cars at the expense of petrol and diesel ones? Hybrid cars have enormous advantages and this could be done very quickly, without any charging points. Why not?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, there are many plus points in hybrid cars and I entirely agree that, at this time, they are a very good option. However, with our investment in ultra-low emission vehicles and in more publicly accessible charging points, we are clearly moving towards ensuring that ever more ultra-low emission vehicles are bought.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has quoted our position worldwide. However, the fact is that the end of last week the European Commission infracted us for not meeting air quality standards. So we are one of the six dirty half-dozen of Europe for air quality. That is a fact—we would not be going in front of the ECJ if we were not. Commissioner Vella put that down in particular to those six member states being persistent offenders that were in the last chance saloon. Can the Minister say how we can make these strategies, and all the other plans we have, credible, not just to Europe but to our own citizens, to convince them that this time we will perform where in the past we have singularly failed?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

There were a number of points there. We are one of 22 member states reporting exceedances, and there are 12 other countries against which infraction proceedings are carrying on. So this is undoubtedly a problem in many of the developed economies, which is precisely why the £3.5 billion, plus what we are announcing today on particulate matter and ammonia, is all about bearing down on the problem of improving air quality generally. We recognise that it is a great health problem that has a great cost in misery and financially. We wish to address this, and this is what we precisely need to do.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I draw my noble friend’s attention to a scheme I saw being demonstrated at the current Chelsea Flower Show. Research has shown that some common house plants such as ivy are brilliant at clearing pollution within a domestic situation. This seems to be an interesting point that might be followed up.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I entirely agree with my noble friend, whom I saw at Chelsea very early yesterday morning. Plants and trees—the natural world and its protection—are hugely important because of what the natural world does for us. We still have a lot more to learn, and there are many plants from which I hope we will learn a great deal more about improving our environment.

Animal Products: Labelling and Packaging

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Monday 14th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they will take to ensure that the labelling and packaging of animal-derived products does not mislead consumers as to how those animals were reared.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, it is against the law to mislead consumers about any aspect of food. Methods of production for eggs and poultry meat are defined and the use of various assurance schemes helps to identify that animal health and welfare standards have been met. While legal definitions are not in place, information can be given voluntarily and trading standards is responsible for ensuring that this does not mislead.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. I know he feels the same way as I do on many of these issues, but it is not right that consumers are still misled. The area where that happens the most is illustrations on packaging. Will the Government use the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 to tie down and tighten up these procedures far more? If the Government do not feel that those are sufficient, will they introduce additional measures in their agriculture Bill?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

As your Lordships will know, many of these rules are subject to EU regulation. I am absolutely clear that no produce should be labelled in any way that misleads the consumer. As the noble Lord has said, under the Health and Harmony consultation into the agricultural way forward we have consulted on that, and we are considering whether there are better ways in which labelling could satisfy the consumer better.

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

In a similar vein, would my noble friend ensure, particularly post-Brexit, that animal feed is also labelled and that such labelling is shown to be as accurate as possible, to make sure that cattle feed in particular is also something the consumer can rely upon?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I shall certainly take back what my noble friend has said. It is clear that we have some of the best food standards in the world. We are exporting much larger numbers— £22 billion in the food and drink sector—so it is vital for our reputation that all provenance of seeds and food is of the highest order.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, according to Which?, one in six Americans get food poisoning whereas the figure in the UK is only about one in 66. Will the Government introduce a mandatory food labelling scheme post-Brexit so that consumers can make an informed choice about the country of origin, as well as the welfare standards, of the meat products they will be consuming so they can keep their families safe?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am sure the noble Baroness knows that with the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill we are bringing back all the requirements under our domestic legislation, and of course that requires that countries of origin should be on the label.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister believe that the Food Standards Agency’s plan to privatise the inspection of food producers will give consumers confidence in the safety of their food? Does he agree that the plan for producers to choose and pay for their own inspector and agree the remit and frequency of their inspection is rather like letting them mark their own homework? How will that encourage the rest of the EU to continue to import British food after Brexit?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, as I said, we have some of the highest standards in the world. We will continue to have some of the highest standards in the world. That is why we are exporting ever more produce in the food and drink sector. The Food Standards Agency is required to protect public health and consumers’ wider interest in food. That is its remit and it will continue to do so.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend think that consumers are also entitled to know how their meat has been slaughtered—hopefully, by the humane method of pre-stunning—and that it should be labelled?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I understand what my noble friend says. We are clear that we understand the public concern that people should be eating meat from animals in the way that they would wish. We will be looking at labelling as a post-Brexit opportunity, as I said, and this is one area that we can consider.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister spoke about labels of origin. Will he suggest that that includes the Palestinian Authority area and that when goods come from that part of the world, they are appropriately labelled?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am well aware that I am speaking on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government, but I think I should take advice from colleagues in that department.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I am sure that the Minister knows the term “barn-raised chickens”. It sounds very cute and cuddly, but in fact under that designation nine chickens can be squashed into one square metre. Does the Minister think that that might be a little misleading for the general public?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, that is why in this country we have the largest free-range flocks in Europe. The definition of eggs, as compared with other food products, is one of the legal definitions, precisely so that the consumer knows the difference between free range and barn.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, there is only one dietary requirement for Sikhs: that forbidding eating meat slaughtered in a ritual way. Yet, despite the protests of the Sikh community over many years, schools often serve only halal meat. Can the Minister do something about this?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, as I said, we understand the concern of consumers. That is why, as part of a general labelling review, we will consider the opportunities in this regard.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare my interests in the register on this matter. In his Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, the Minister talked about the role of trading standards. The noble Baroness, Lady Browning, raised the issue of animal feed, which is also largely monitored by trading standards. Can he tell us by what proportion the budgets of trading standards departments have been cut in the past seven years—spoiler alert, it is more than 50%—and can he further tell us how many statutory requirements trading standards are now expected to enforce with that much reduced workforce?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, as the noble Lord rather anticipated, I understand the figures he raises but I do not have the precise figures in front of me. Trading standards departments are undertaking a very effective job, and I could give him examples of a number of recent prosecutions where they have ensured that their job is done extremely effectively. That is to enforce product safety and prevent fraud such as mislabelling of food, and they are doing an effective job.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister considering advising consumers about the extent of antibiotic use in animal products, thereby raising awareness of the use of antibiotics?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

The noble Earl raises an important issue, which is that we want to reduce the use of antibiotics in the agricultural sector. I must say that, two years ahead of target, that has been achieved. It is really important that this country is one of the world-leading reducers of the use of antibiotics, and we need to continue that trend.

Domestic Animals: Welfare

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Thursday 10th May 2018 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Black’s dedication to animal welfare is truly exceptional, and today we witness this given his recent accident. We are proud to have some of the highest animal welfare standards in the world, and I say to my noble friend Lord Kirkham that they will remain so under our new arrangements.

Animal welfare affects us all. The veterinary profession is at the front line, and I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the veterinary community and the contributions it makes. Together, we are working to create a veterinary profession equipped to deliver future requirements: to protect animal health and welfare, safeguard our food chain, maintain public health and services, and enable thriving trade. Work is ongoing between the Government, the British Veterinary Association, the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons and other key partners on the hugely important veterinary capability and capacity project. The profession also has a key role in the fight against antimicrobial resistance and meeting our targets for the reduction in antibiotic usage.

My recent visit to the Animal Health Trust at Newmarket reminded me just how much we owe my noble friend Lord Kirkham for his generosity and commitment to that establishment. We are extremely fortunate to also have the Animal Health and Welfare Board for England and the Farm Animal Welfare Committee providing advice, and I acknowledge their work.

The UK equestrian sector plays a significant role in our national and rural economies. It sets a global standard with its exceptionally high level of expertise, which is recognised around the world and has encouraged a strong and successful export market. I value the work of the British Horse Council, to which my noble friend Lord De Mauley referred, and in particular its help in the creation of the Central Equine Database. This holds 1.2 million equine records and is being used by local authorities to help identify the owners of straying, abandoned or neglected horses which have previously been microchipped.

My noble friend Lord De Mauley asked about progress with the Control of Horses Act, and I pay tribute to him for his close involvement in bringing that forward. The Act has undoubtedly helped tackle this problem, which is one that he knows so well. However, there remains the issue of equine fly-grazing. We encourage partnership working between all partners—landowners and their representatives, local authorities and the equine charities—to deal with horse abandonment and fly-grazing. I know a number of equine charities that are absolutely instrumental in this, including the British Horse Society, of which I should declare membership, and in the castration of horses, which is hugely important.

My noble friend Lord De Mauley asked about fine income in connection with retrospective equine microchipping. We are finalising our new statutory instrument on equine identification to implement EU requirements, which will be laid as soon as practicable. Officials are in discussion with local authorities and other government departments to establish whether it is appropriate that any fine income could be returned to local authorities.

As a number of your Lordships have said, cats and dogs are surely our most numerous and hugely popular pets. So many of us have had them, and without them our lives would not be as full as they have been, from early childhood and thereafter. I had the privilege of speaking recently at the Big Tent event for the Canine & Feline Sector Group. I cannot overstate the importance of these connections and the constant communication and sharing of ideas with the sectors on animal welfare. My noble friend Lord Caithness and a number of your Lordships raised the issue of awareness. I am acutely aware of that in so far as the veterinary profession, as well as the animal charities, will be key to helping us raise awareness as we seek to persuade many owners who would not dream of even thinking of being cruel to their animals but who unfortunately are not caring for them in an enlightened way. We absolutely need to raise awareness.

My noble friend Lord Black made reference to the PDSA report and to the importance of education. These are all things on which we must beat the drum. The codes of practice for dogs, cats, horses, ponies and their hybrids have been updated, as a number of your Lordships mentioned, and they came in to force on 6 April. The whole purpose of these updated codes is to contain more detail about what owners and keepers need to do to ensure the welfare of their animals.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, quite rightly asked about the timetable for primary and secondary legislation. Of course, I will have to reply with what is expected from the Government Benches, that we will bring forward legislation when parliamentary time permits, but we are clear about the priorities we set on bringing these matters forward. In particular, my noble friend Lord De Mauley asked about the legislation increasing the prison sentences for animal welfare offences. Our proposal is to increase the maximum penalty for animal cruelty from six months’ to five years’ imprisonment. As your Lordships know, we published a draft Bill in December, and the timing will be announced in the usual way. However, I am conscious that we all want to make progress on that. The Bill also seeks explicitly to recognise animals as sentient beings, which is an indication of the Government’s resolve not only to maintain current standards of animal welfare but to strengthen them.

As has been mentioned—this was part of our manifesto commitment—we have already achieved the passing of the new animal welfare licensing regulations. I point out specifically to your Lordships that we worked with charities, through the Canine & Feline Sector Group; we are working on guidance on these matters precisely because we want the regulations to be of practical benefit. That was raised by my noble friends Lord Lexden and Lord Black. These regulations update the licensing controls for five activities involving animals. I emphasise to my noble friend Lady Redfern that anyone in the business of breeding and selling, regardless of the number of litters, must have a licence. We are absolutely clear that this is about whether you are in the business of breeding and selling. One of the key points on which we are absolutely clear is that no puppy or kitten should be sold under the age of eight weeks, which is clear in the new arrangements.

A number of your Lordships, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Bakewell and Lady Jones of Whitchurch, raised the issue of commercial third-party sales of puppies and kittens in England. As has been said, this consultation closed recently; we need to analyse the responses and will come forward with our own response as soon as we possibly can.

A number of your Lordships, my noble friend Lord Black in particular, raised the issue of breeding pets with what I would describe as extreme characteristics. I have of course discussed the issue with the Kennel Club and the British Veterinary Association. For the first time we have placed legal requirements on licensed dog breeders in our licensing regulations. Surely the point is that we must breed defects out of pets—that point was also raised by my noble friend Lord De Mauley. We must prevent these extreme conformations for cats and dogs. It cannot be right to breed animals that will have all sorts of disabilities because of our self-indulgence. This is the strongest message that anyone, whether breed societies or the Kennel Club, must get across. It is simply not acceptable for animals to be knowingly bred in this way.

Further recent progress on domestic animal welfare arising from the compulsory microchipping of dogs has led to a significant decrease in the number of stray dogs—this is a really strong point. A number of your Lordships mentioned e-collars, including my noble friends Lord De Mauley and Lord Astor. The consultation has just closed. I have had a very large number of representations on a range of issues arising from it. Of course, we must consider the way forward extremely carefully and I am mindful of all the points that have been made by your Lordships and others on this matter. I would also like to recognise all the work that Defra officials do, some of whom are sitting behind me. They have worked tirelessly on these matters.

My noble friend Lord Shrewsbury mentioned pet theft. I know of a number of friends and relations who have suffered this over the years. It is a traumatic event and very often one never really gets over it. There are strict laws in place; in fact, someone can be in prison for up to seven years. The Sentencing Council has issued guidance to the courts underlining the significance of the theft of a pet or, as my noble friend said, a working dog, and the emotional distress that it can cause.

My noble friend Lord Shrewsbury and others are absolutely right to talk of puppy farming. It is at the root of what we need to do to ensure that that illegal trade is stamped out.

My noble friend Lord Black asked about cat microchipping. We definitely agree that microchipping is strongly recommended. However, we do not think at this time that cats present the same potential public nuisance as dogs.

My noble friend Lord Caithness mentioned cats and wildlife. I do not have enough time to go into the intricacies. All I can say at this stage is that we are not convinced that this is a matter for government intervention, but clearly many owners are fitting bells to collars and I encourage that.

My noble friend Lord Black asked about the licensing of air weapons. This is still being analysed and my officials are very strongly in communication with Home Office officials on the matter.

Clearly, we are working on new arrangements. My noble friend Lord Lexden mentioned the Pet Travel Scheme. We need to work on that to heighten biosecurity and to ensure that matters run smoothly.

On the illegal dog trade, the APHA has been working in partnership with the Dogs Trust. I want to record our appreciation of what has been done. It is disrupting the illegal trade in dogs and puppies, and as a result of the partnership more than 700 dogs have been seized and placed into quarantine.

The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, and other noble Lords asked about local authorities’ resources. Our licensing regime is created with full cost recovery, including local authorities’ reasonable enforcement costs. We are also placing emphasis and importance on training, which often means that local authorities are collaborating.

I am about to go over time and am conscious that I have not been able to answer a number of questions. I will write to your Lordships. I express my gratitude to my noble friend for his long-term commitment and for giving me this opportunity to update your Lordships. Good progress has been made. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, is quite right to say that there is more to do. We have a lot more that we want to do and are seeking the legislative time to do it. I look forward to working with your Lordships and with all those at home or abroad who are advancing the cause of animal welfare.

Committee adjourned at 1.54 pm.

Plastic Packaging

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have been working with WRAP, the Ellen MacArthur Foundation and industry to develop the UK plastics pact, announced last week. The pact seeks to eliminate single-use plastic packaging by 2025 and ensure that 100% of plastic packaging is reusable, recyclable or compostable. In addition, government and industry are investing in research on plastics innovation and the development of more-sustainable products.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I think the Minister will agree that it is no exaggeration to say that we are poisoning our planet. Will he confirm that 70% of the rubbish on Britain’s beaches is plastic? Will he also confirm that, by 2050, the weight of plastic in the oceans will exceed the weight of fish, and that micro-plastics have been found on the tops of mountains and in the polar regions? I appreciate what the Government are trying to do, but are we not facing a desperately urgent crisis which requires more urgent action nationally and internationally?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I entirely endorse all the instincts that the noble Lord has expressed in terms of our need to take action both at home and overseas. Just at CHOGM, there was a strong desire within the Commonwealth countries to deal with marine pollution. Through the UN, the G7, the G20 and CHOGM, we have been working extremely hard, because this issue must be dealt with internationally. At home, we fully recognise that we need to advance the necessary changes. That is why our resources and waste strategy to be announced later in the year will represent an important way forward.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, noble Lords will know of my passion for this issue. I even have an eco-coffee cup in turquoise blue that I use every morning, which saves me 25p. I am delighted at the way in which this issue has gone up the agenda so strongly—it means that we can make a big difference. But how is my noble friend getting on with boosting recycling in local authorities by bringing in soon a single system for recycling, and by ensuring that all plastics have their recyclable quality marked on the product?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I endorse what my noble friend has said, which is why the four-point plan that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State announced is precisely about reducing the amount of plastic in circulation, addressing different plastics in use, improving the rate of recycling and making it easier for people to recycle. That is why we need to work with local authorities. There are some very good examples, both rural and urban, of local authorities increasing their rates of recycling, and I applaud them.

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that, besides local authorities, the Government need to make extra effort with producers to give them guidance about using only one sort of plastic, where that is practical, because it is the mixed plastics that are so difficult to recycle?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this is where I think industry is working much more effectively than very often we appreciate. Indeed, industry has committed to finding solutions to ensure that the recycling of all black plastic packaging is sorted out by the end of this year. Clearly, with innovation, we want to ensure that the plastic we are producing is readily recyclable.

[The Lord Bishop of Salisbury]

My Lords, it is good that we are making such progress on the issue of plastic and food packaging but it is important to think holistically about this. In the UK we throw away about 235 million items of clothing every month, 60% of which includes polyester. Bishops know a thing or two about dressing up, and churches and charities know about recycling, but will the Minister say what steps are being taken to address the use of polyester in human packaging?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I may have needed notice of that very intriguing question. However, it goes to the heart of what I would call wise and sustainable use, and it is why I actively encourage natural fibres. The use of wool is a very good idea.

[Lord Dykes (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest in the all-party group. Will the Minister accept the urgent request of industry—the sector represented by the Food and Drink Federation—to have a holistic approach to this so that every form of plastic is dealt with in the measures to be drawn up by the Government?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, as I say, I think that industry is absolutely seized of this. I could take noble Lords through the companies involved in coffee and coffee cups, and the number of them that are now dealing with rewards, with water filling stations in their coffee shops, et cetera. I think that what we are looking at now is the beginning of a considerable revolution in the way we do things.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, one of the consequences of the Government’s Brexit policy is that all pallets importing food into the UK or exporting it from here will have to be disinfected at the frontier if they are made of timber. Will the Minister encourage the use of recycled plastic for pallets so that this does not have to happen? It would also save some of the trees that are used in pallets.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, wearing my other hat as Minister for Biosecurity I know that the noble Lord will well understand some of the dangers that we have had from pests and diseases coming through in timber packaging. I take the point very seriously indeed. We need to look at all sorts of innovative ways of reusing and recycling plastic. He has given a very good example of the reuse and recycling of materials.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, is it not a question of physician, heal thyself? Should not this House and the Parliamentary Estate look very carefully at its lack of progress in dealing with plastics and other products? Plastics can only be recycled twice, so when one talks about continually recycling plastics, it is not accurate. Would it not be better to look at products such as the bottles being developed by Choose Water, in Scotland, that use no plastics?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, it is incumbent on us all, whether it is the Government, this House or Parliament. That is why I am very pleased that the Services Committee is looking at this precise point. When I think of the many plastic cups that I see in all our Committee Rooms, I think that we undoubtedly should lead by example.

Legislative Reform (Constitution of the Council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons) Order 2018

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Tuesday 1st May 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 1 March be approved.

Relevant document: 18th Report from the Regulatory Reform Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, the veterinary profession plays a vital role in protecting animal health and welfare, maintaining food safety and public health and enabling trade in animals and animal products. I am pleased, therefore, to introduce this draft legislative reform order, which seeks to make changes to what the profession and others view as the outdated constitution of the council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.

The RCVS is the statutory regulatory body in the United Kingdom and is therefore responsible for the registration and regulation of the profession in this country. The changes proposed in this order are strongly supported by the college and by the range of stakeholders and interested parties who responded to consultation by both the RCVS and Defra. They will be widely welcomed. As a department, we have worked closely with the college to take these proposals forward and to get the drafting right. I pay tribute to the college in particular for its willingness to address issues raised during the process and to find solutions which, through this draft order, will strengthen its governance arrangements.

I am pleased to say that our Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has approved of the proposals described in the explanatory document laid before this House and agreed that the use of the affirmative resolution procedure is appropriate. The committee commended the department on,

“a well-presented and informative Explanatory Document, and on its inclusion of helpful Keeling Schedules”.

I am therefore very grateful to my officials for their work in producing these documents and for the constructive responses we received to the consultation, which helped shape the final proposals.

At present the college is required to have a governing council with 42 members. There are 24 elected members, all veterinary surgeons; two members appointed by each university with a current veterinary school—Bristol, Cambridge, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Liverpool, London and Nottingham; and four appointed by the Privy Council—currently, the UK Chief Veterinary Officer and three lay members. This is not in line with modern regulatory best practice, and issues surrounding the governance arrangements at the RCVS have been raised on a number of occasions in recent years. In May 2008, the report on the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966 published by the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee of the other House included a recommendation for the restructuring of the council, especially concerning lay membership, suggesting that the proportion of lay members should be increased. A consultation exercise undertaken by the college in 2009 reached similar conclusions about the need for reform.

As a first step towards restructuring, a draft legislative reform order was brought before Parliament in 2013 to make changes to the governance of the two college committees that deal with disciplinary proceedings: namely, the disciplinary committee and the preliminary investigations committee. In parallel, in 2012, with the aim of becoming a first-rate regulator, the RCVS commissioned research to understand better how it is seen by others and where opportunities for change might lie. The RCVS was found by the report, published in April 2013, to be significantly out of step with the arrangements in place at other professional regulators and royal colleges. The report also identified that the council was seen as less efficient than it could be, mainly because of its size but also because of its membership structure, and could be modified to operate more efficiently and in the better interests of public and profession.

The research report included advice from the Professional Standards Authority on the efficiency and effectiveness of health professional regulators. This advised parity of membership between lay and professional members is,

“to ensure that purely professional concerns are not thought to dominate council’s work’.

It also suggested that smaller boards were associated with better effectiveness.

The RCVS embraced the need for change in order to achieve the stated aim of becoming a first-rate regulator and demonstrating a better fit with the five principles of better regulation, by being proportionate, consistent, accountable, transparent and targeted. As current council arrangements are laid down in an Act of Parliament—the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966—the RCVS again turned to the Government with a view to making a further legislative reform order. The college recognises that it must be accountable to the profession it regulates and the overall aim of the proposed reforms is therefore to modernise the structure and composition of its governing council.

On matters of detail, the Veterinary Surgeons Act does not currently include a statutory requirement for lay persons to be included on council. The current arrangement of appointing lay members to council via the Privy Council, or by the veterinary schools, is not sufficiently robust. It is proposed, therefore, that in future there should be statutory provision for independently appointed lay representation on council—six places in all. Secondly, now that the RCVS is the regulator of the veterinary nursing profession through the provisions of the supplemental charter of February 2015, it is appropriate that the law should provide for veterinary nurses to be represented. Two places on the council are proposed.

As noble Lords will appreciate, the size of the council is also inextricably linked to its composition. In order to provide places for lay and veterinary nurse members without further increasing an already unworkably large council, reductions in the representation of other member categories are therefore proposed. Over a period of three years, the number of veterinary surgeons elected to council would reduce from the current 24 to 13, though at all times they will have a majority. While it is considered essential that the council continues to benefit from the academic expertise of the UK universities with accredited veterinary degrees, a reduction in the number of places allocated to them is also proposed—from two per university to three members in total, appointed collectively. UK veterinary schools are content with the proposal for collective representation on council. Finally, the UK Government’s Chief Veterinary Officer will continue to be fully engaged with the council as now, but with observer status rather than as a Privy Council appointee.

Having a council of 42 members is an obstacle to its efficiency. The cost of each meeting—around £24,000 through reimbursement of expenses and loss of earnings —and the difficulty of ensuring that 42 members are available, restricts how often it can meet and therefore impacts on its ability to take timely decisions. As council cannot meet often enough to take time-pressured decisions, it has been necessary to delegate some of its work to an operational board. Decision-making is currently divided between council and the board, with a potential for lack of accountability in those decisions. At present, veterinary surgeons, veterinary nurses and the animal-owning public are at risk of being affected by delays and difficulties arising from decision-making under the current governance arrangements. If the council’s size were reduced overall, it could meet more frequently and reach and communicate decisions more effectively.

The proposed changes therefore reduce the size of the council and revise the balance of membership between vets and non-vets, including veterinary nurses and lay persons. They will bring the RCVS in line with many other modern-day regulatory bodies and allow for greater efficiency, transparency and accountability to both members and the general public. For all the reasons I have outlined today, I commend the use of the legislative reform order to make changes that will benefit the veterinary profession. I beg to move.

[Baroness Byford (Con)]

My Lords, I very much welcome the order before us today. I declare my interest as an honorary associate member of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. For many years, we have had regular discussions with members of the royal college about the unwieldiness and the way in which they have had to work in recent years. The Minister referred to the importance of the health and welfare of animals of all sizes. It really does give me great pleasure to support this order today. I was particularly pleased to read the report from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. It was a well presented and helpful report that had come forward following the various consultations that had taken place.

Any of us who are involved in public life would view a council of 42 with great fear. It was something that was fairly common in those days. I belong to the Worshipful Company of Farmers, and we would look at our constitution, which would be a very similar size in the old days, and we had to say, “In this day and age, is it relevant? Can it do the job it is supposed to do? Would it not do it better with a slightly smaller and more receptive constitution?”. Today we are looking at a very important section of the profession, and I am really glad that the profession has great support. We want to make sure that we have good governance and better regulation. That would then free up the council to meet more often and to be able to do what it wants to do in a more timely fashion.

I still believe that vets have a vital role to play, not just for the welfare of the animals that they look after, but for members of the general public, who rely totally on their expertise. In this way, the royal college and the members of it are an important link. I welcome the extension of council membership to lay members and veterinary nurses.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for explaining the background to the order with such clarity. I also found helpful the explanatory document which gives the background.

However, I was concerned to read that no impact assessment had been prepared, with the reason given that there was no significant impact on the private, voluntary or public sectors. I would hope that the Minister will acknowledge—as I think he did—that vets have a significant impact on public health: for example, in relation to food standards, the breeding and feeding of livestock, research facilities and drug companies. Therefore, the regulation of veterinary practice has a wider public interest. Perhaps the Minister could comment on that.

Having said that, in line with all noble Lords who have spoken we support the proposals and regard them as a helpful step in modernising the functions of the RCVS. Its aspiration to be a first-rate regulator has to be welcomed. By any stretch, as noble Lords have said, a council of 42 people is unwieldy, and that results, as appears to be the case here, in split responsibilities between the council and operational board, which raises concerns about where the ultimate responsibility lies. We also welcome the steps to broaden expertise on the council by adding lay members and veterinary nurses to the representation.

Having said that, I have a few questions for the Minister. First, the current RCVS council is supported by a system of statutory committees, standing committees, sub-committees and working parties. It also has, as I just said, an operational board which oversees college management, governance and the management of resources. Can the Minister clarify how the proposed changes to the size of the council might impact on the delegation of duties to the operational board and those committees? How will that work with a council half the size of the original, and is he confident that the existing workload can be covered by a much smaller council?

Secondly, given the regulatory and animal welfare roles of the RCVS, this is an instance where size and composition could matter. Could the Minister therefore clarify what consideration has been given to the potential loss of expertise that will result from the proposed changes? What procedures are in place to ensure that appropriate skill sets and expertise are maintained? In particular, the LRO proposes a big reduction in the number of members appointed by veterinary schools. At a time when our scientific understanding of animal disease and public impact is moving at a fast rate, how will the council maintain and stay abreast of scientific developments that affect its public reputation and trust? The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, touched upon this issue but it goes wider, as it is about the fast-moving science and being up to date and aware of all that.

Finally, I have seen in the press that the posts for the lay members are already being advertised, with applications to be sent to the royal college. Does the Minister agree that it is important that these appointments are carried out with transparency and overseen by an independent body? Can he explain how it is intended that these appointments are made, and how we are to have trust that genuine lay member independence will be achieved if the royal college is to be involved in those appointments?

I very much look forward to the Minister’s response to those questions, but overall I echo the comments made by other noble Lords as we agree with the proposals.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken and for the warm welcome for these proposals, which have been the result of the department working in consultation with the royal college to make sure that we get this right and that it serves the purpose of achieving a balance.

I would like to take head-on what the noble Baronesses, Lady Parminter and Lady Jones of Whitchurch, referred to when they mentioned the reduction of the veterinary surgeon element of the council. There was a concern that there may be a loss of expertise and experience if that came about. In a sense, it is precisely one of the reasons for this order. We all wanted to ensure that there was this range. We recognise what the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, said about the range of vets in practice, in corporate situations and in the state veterinary service, and the range of the duties of that profession. It is in effect why, in taking into account a number of representations, specifically on these points, the Government and the RCVS settled on a council that actually will be bigger than that recommended by the First Rate Regulator initiative. It is precisely a recognition that we wanted there to continue to be a range of expertise. We and the college thought that this would ensure that the necessary expertise was there.

There is always a balance to be achieved when we try to get things right, and there was also the existing concern about the council’s efficiency. My noble friend Lady Byford could not have chimed in more helpfully with the experience that she brings to these matters—the experience and knowledge of the unwieldiness of the current arrangement and the desire of the college to have good governance and better regulation, as well as recognising the vital role that the college plays. That is why we have the numbers to ensure precisely that there is this experience on the council.

A number of points were raised. It is right that we send a message to the college. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, spoke about new blood and the length of service dynamic. Yes, it is very important to the profession that innovative thinking and new knowledge are always available to the council, which is why the veterinary schools composition on the council is so essential. But it is also important that younger vets come on so that there is a diversity in the council.

I should have declared this before, but it is not really a declaratory interest. Two members of my family are members of this profession, so I get a considerable amount of background information, and one thing that is really important is how every practice relies on the professionalism of the veterinary nurses as well as the veterinary surgeons. In the blend of what this council will have, the experience of two members of the veterinary nursing profession coming on to the council will make a significant difference to the way in which the council can think about these things.

I am going to dance on a pin, as it were, with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, about the no impact assessment. The proposed changes address the efficiency and accountability of decision-making by the council, but do not affect the nature or outcome of the decisions themselves. They will therefore not have any impact on businesses or charities. That may be something that the noble Baroness and I reflected on when we met. But that is the precise reason why there was no impact assessment. The order does not affect the nature or outcome of the decisions themselves.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, asked a number of other questions. She mentioned university vet schools. She is absolutely right that it is vital that vet schools provide expertise in certain areas for the council. All the vet schools are content with the proposal for collective representation in place of individual allocations. The current arrangements would lead to a continued increase in the size of the council, as any new vet school would automatically be allocated two places on the council. There is a reflection that we probably should be training more vets in this country; I know that some universities are thinking of opening a veterinary school. This new arrangement also addresses the fact that potentially, if many more veterinary schools were to open, we would automatically add a further two to the council, which would be unhelpful to good governance and to the profession.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

I thank the Minister for a number of very helpful responses. However, he did not address the issue of the appointments of lay members, with the royal college seeming to be fully hands-on with that, and the need for more independent scrutiny of that process. I do not know whether he can answer that.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

The important thing about lay members is that they are independent of the profession. I will write to the noble Baroness and other noble Lords who have participated so that I can give a little more detail on the mechanism for the appointment of lay members. Obviously, it must be done in a punctilious way, through all sorts of processes. This is a three-year transition and, subject to your Lordships’ consent, one of the reasons for the advertisements—I admit that it might be suggested that this is jumping the gun—is the strong desire in the profession to get on with this and begin the transition in July. If your Lordships and the other place did not consent, this would obviously be premature. There was a strong desire to start the process and not wait until 2019, but to get this transition to bring in immediately six lay members and then contract down over three years the number of veterinary surgeons and introduce the other membership I have outlined. That was precisely because this is work we need to get on with. I will write to the noble Baroness with the fullest detail.

Motion agreed.