Procedure and Privileges Committee

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord Gardiner of Kimble)]

I beg to move the Motion, as amended, standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

The Question is that this Motion be agreed to—however, I am slightly concerned about the effect of the last vote on this Motion.

[The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord Gardiner of Kimble)]

That is why I specifically said “as amended”.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

In which case, I will read out the wording I have: “The Question is that this Motion be agreed to, only insofar as it relates to Standing Order 63, and excluding the reference to Standing Orders 52 to 54”—no?

[The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord Gardiner of Kimble)]

I think the Standing Order issues would relate to the situation if the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, had moved his amendment.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Chief Whip for making to help me, but I realise that I have failed to notice that it was only in respect of the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. That is entirely my mistake, and I apologise. Therefore, the Question is that this Motion, as amended, be agreed to.

Agriculture (Payments) (Amendment, etc) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Wednesday 18th November 2020 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my farming interests as set out in the register.

These instruments are closely related as they apply to regulations relating to the common agricultural policy, or CAP. I emphasise that these instruments are minor and technical in nature. They do not make new policy or change existing policy. Instead, they will make existing policy and legislation operable at the end of the transition period.

The Agriculture (Payments) (Amendment, etc) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020 update exit SIs made in 2019, minimising ambiguity about legacy CAP schemes by removing the direct payments provisions from previous exit SIs and clarifying that those SIs relate only to the common organisation of agricultural markets—CMO—and rural development. Amendments to direct payments provisions had already been made on exit day under the Direct Payments to Farmers (Legislative Continuity) Act 2020. There are also Northern Ireland protocol-related technical amendments, such as changing “United Kingdom” to “Great Britain”.

The regulations allow the UK to comply with Article 138 of the withdrawal agreement, which provides that EU law will continue to apply after 31 December to ongoing rural development programmes and CMO operational programmes implemented by producer organisations until those programmes end.

The regulations amend provisions concerning public intervention and private storage aid schemes, which offer financial support when market prices for agricultural products fall below thresholds laid down in legislation. Currently, the schemes allow the European Commission to buy commodities then publish its decisions using implementing Acts. This instrument allows Defra and the devolved Administrations to make these decisions, which will then be published on GOV.UK.

The instrument makes amendments to retained EU law relating to devolved aspects of producer organisations in the Fruit and Vegetables Aid Scheme to ensure that the scheme continues to operate in the UK post the transition period. This scheme provides funding to producers to encourage collaboration, increase competitiveness and improve the quality and quantity of produce grown.

The instrument makes other amendments to retained EU law to ensure that Defra and the devolved Administrations can continue to obtain certain production and price data from those in the supply chain, as they do currently. This information is used for market monitoring purposes.

Finally, this instrument also tidies up aspects of other retained EU law; for example, it changes “Exit Day” to “IP completion day” or reflects updates to EU law.

I turn to the Common Organisation of the Markets in Agricultural Products (Producer Organisations and Wine) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020. This instrument amends provisions of retained EU CMO legislation in the reserved areas of regulating anti-competitive practices and agreements; international relations; import/export controls; and the regulation of intellectual property. It ensures that, post transition period, these functions can be carried out by the Secretary of State. It also amends retained EU law concerning reserved provisions of producer organisations in the fruit and vegetables sector and ensures that functions relating to the recognition of producer organisations in this sector can continue to be exercised by the Secretary of State. It will also omit references to transnational POs within retained EU law, as they are no longer relevant in a domestic context, and updates a reference in relation to contractual negotiations in the milk sector.

On wine, the instrument ensures that protection of designations of origin, geographical indications and traditional terms in the wine sector operate effectively and that Great Britain is able to process domestic and third-country applications for such matters. It will also ensure that the UK is compliant with the rules of the WTO. It will give the Secretary of State the power to approve or revoke protected wine names and terms on the domestic GI register and approve or deny applications already made to the EU. It will also enable the Secretary of State to make administrative decisions involved in processing applications for protected wine names or terms, amending those protections and the use of those terms on the label of the product. It also revokes EU-implementing Acts that duplicate information in the protected designations of origin and protected geographical indications register.

I turn to the Common Organisation of the Markets in Agricultural Products (Miscellaneous Amendments) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020 and the Common Organisation of the Markets in Agricultural Products (Miscellaneous Amendments) (EU Exit) (No. 2) Regulations 2020. The majority of the amendments made by these instruments relate to the implementation of the Northern Ireland protocol and references to Northern Ireland as it will remain aligned to the EU under the protocol. Amendments are also being made to a small number of the transitional provisions, either to align with the Government’s border operating model, which introduces new border controls for the movement of goods between Great Britain and the EU in three stages until July 2021, or because they were introduced on the basis that the UK would leave without a deal and are no longer required.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee drew the attention of the House to the department’s explanation for why poultry meat imports from the EU would not require an optional indications certificate for a period of 12 months. Optional indications refer to the use of labelling terms concerning farming or chilling methods. I would like to apologise as the department’s explanation did not provide sufficient context on checks relating to poultry meat marketing standards and this may have caused concern, but it has since been clarified with the committee and the department has asked for a correction to be issued.

I reassure your Lordships that, although the specific matters are not covered by these regulations, the Government remain committed to high environmental protection, animal welfare and food safety standards.

These statutory instruments, which are predominantly technical in nature, provide clarity in the context of continuity. For those reasons, I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Loomba and Lord Dodds of Duncairn, and the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, have withdrawn from the debate. I call the next speaker, the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville.

Fisheries Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Consideration of Commons amendments & Ping Pong (Hansard) & Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords & Ping Pong (Minutes of Proceedings): House of Lords
Thursday 12th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this fairly wide-ranging debate. I am particularly grateful for the kind and generous remarks that have been made.

I say to the noble Baronesses, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville and Lady Jones of Whitchurch, that sustainability is at the heart of the Bill. I think that the work that we have all done together on the Bill shows a spirit of ambition—my noble friend Lord Caithness used the word “ambitious”. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, will be satisfied that the opportunities will be as this comes into fruition. I do not think that we have missed opportunities in terms of legislative provision. The key and the test of all this is what this framework Bill will do to the marine environment, out there in the seas and oceans. That is when we all be judged—Governments, the industry—and when we will be able to see that fish stocks are recovering; indeed, that more fish stocks are recovering.

It is interesting that my noble friend Lord Randall spoke about the reference to “long term” and not wanting this, but the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, rather liked it. Our clear ongoing commitment, setting out how the fisheries objectives will be applied, is provided through Clause 2(1)(c), as I said. I repeat that this will be reviewed and updated with each iteration of the joint fisheries statement, which will be laid before Parliament and consulted on. There will be regular scrutiny of our ongoing commitment to ensure that today’s fishers’ grandchildren enjoy the benefits of a healthy and productive marine environment, with sustainable fish stocks that support a thriving fishing industry and vibrant coastal communities. I know that that is the objective of us all. I repeat: removing “in the long term” from Clause 1, as proposed by my noble friend Lord Randall, will introduce significant legal uncertainty and, we believe, hinder our policy development.

The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, asked about IVMS and REM. My understanding is that inshore vessel monitoring systems are a satellite-based monitoring system and enforcement tool that provides an accurate picture of the fishing location and activity of the under-12-metre fleet. Following public consultation in early 2019, the MMO is putting plans in place for IVMS to be rolled out to all licensed British under- 12-metre vessels operating in English waters. The date of implementation is not expected to be before late 2021. The devolved Administrations are all currently working on IVMS projects for their respective under-12-metre fleets. In comparison, REM includes integrated onboard systems of cameras, gear sensors, video storage and global positioning system units that capture comprehensive video of fishing activities. As I have highlighted, we do not want REM to be exclusively and alone an enforcement tool; we think that there are many other attributes of that system.

I know this was a point all noble Lords were concerned about, but I will flag up the noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord Cameron, who asked for a date for REM implementation. I particularly refer to my noble friend Lady McIntosh in saying that we are already using REM. The Government are clear that we will be consulting on increasing the use of REM in the first half of 2021, with implementation following that. I am not in a position to give a precise date today for when this will be implemented, but I can absolutely say—and I want to put this on the record—that the Government are absolutely seized of the importance of REM. Indeed, other technologies may come along in the future that will also assist us with all the things that we hope and intend that REM will do, as I have described. However, I understand and accept that everyone wants action on this; I share that feeling, as do the Fisheries Minister and the Secretary of State.

I welcome the comments of my noble friend Lord Randall and the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, who highlighted the importance of transparency in quota setting. I agree with them, and that is why we supported my noble friend Lord Lansley’s amendment on Report, which provided further transparency about the criteria used by setting this in the Bill. These amendments also made clear the link between the fisheries objectives and quota distribution through Clause 22. That means that the fisheries administrations will need to explain, through the joint fisheries statement, how their policies on quota allocation contribute to the achievement of the fisheries objectives. As I have said, six of the eight are environmentally focused.

The Secretary of State’s determination for UK fishing opportunities will be required to be laid before Parliament under Clause 25(2) in the version of the Bill that went to the House of Commons. This will be an additional opportunity for scrutiny not previously available under the EU system. There is still more that we need to do to achieve our ambitions for the marine environment. The Government are already taking action through our work to implement the joint fisheries statement and the fisheries management plans. The Bill will put in place the framework to make that action even stronger.

I received some questions. If there are any that I do not answer fully enough, in my opinion, I will write to noble Lords, but I hope I have answered most of them. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked about foreign-owned vessels and the economic link. Foreign-owned but UK-flagged vessels will continue to be allowed to fish in UK waters. They will need to meet the economic link criteria, as all UK vessels must. In England, our consultation proposes strengthening these criteria, realising an ever-greater benefit from these boats.

The noble Lord also asked about REM. We are clear that it is a route forward, and we want to make sure that its uses can be maximised beyond enforcement, as I said. My noble friend Lord Caithness made a point that I addressed in my earlier remarks: I think we all agree that it is much better that we work with industry to get this done because that is how we will have the right arrangements to ensure that the fishing industry—this is why I quoted those remarks from Cornwall and elsewhere; it is something that we increasingly need—sees the quest for sustainability as the heart and soul of what it is doing.

My noble friend Lord Lansley referred to negotiations. As the Bill is negotiations-neutral, for me to start speculating on any deal may not be helpful to your Lordships today. Our quota consultation makes clear that we want to do something different with additional quota so that it is not distributed through FQA units. In relation to fleet capacity, currently managed by restrictive licensing and quota allocation, we believe that the fleet could catch additional quota with no need for expansion.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked about the National Security and Investment Bill. I will make sure that that point is put to my colleagues, but I am afraid I am not in a position to opine on it myself. My noble friend Lord Caithness asked about buy-back. The quota consultation asked for views on different ways of distributing additional quota negotiated. This relates not to a buy-back scheme but to different ways for fishers to access quota in the future. The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, asked about the “national benefit objective” in Clause 1, which will require the fisheries administrations to set out their policies for achieving benefits for the UK from fish caught by UK boats—a clear reference to the economic link.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh asked about port development. My understanding is that this is subject to habitats and other regulatory regimes. Plans are also subject to environmental assessment.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, rightly asked about new entrants. I should have said that it is not just fishers’ grandchildren but their children whom we want to be engaged in this sustainable harvest, with excellent food coming from our waters. Helping to safeguard the industry’s future by encouraging new entrants is very important. We will look at how we can best work with industry to encourage that as part of our work to reform the fisheries management regime.

There was also a reference to the landing requirement. I have to mention carefully the helpful comments and messages that we—or other noble Lords—sent to the other place. On the point about landing requirements, we have brought forward this consultation on the proposal to increase the landing requirement to 70% to incentivise a higher level of landings into the UK and to ensure a stronger link between vessels fishing UK waters and the UK economy. This figure has been chosen because we believe it strikes the right balance between the need for a strengthened link and recognition that it is appropriate for some vessels to land their catch outside the UK, while demonstrating an economic link through quota donations. As I said, we are seeking views in our consultation on the appropriateness of the 70% figure.

I will look at Hansard, but I want to confirm, so there is no ambiguity, that I absolutely recognise the points all noble Lords have made in their amendments. It is why I set out in my opening remarks some of the action that is already being taken in the short term, as with Dogger Bank and shellfish. It is not that we want to be doing these things in years to come; we need to be doing them now, and we are doing them now. We need to work progressively so that, in our waters at least, we have a sustainable harvest with a sustainable environment, not just for the harvesting of the fish that we want to eat but for the entire ecosystem, which is clearly a key priority and responsibility of the UK Government. For those reasons, I beg to move my amendment.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I have received no request to ask a short question of elucidation after the Minister. Does any noble Lord in the Chamber wish to contribute further? In which case, I call the noble Lord, Lord Randall.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord Grantchester, for their welcome of these amendments.

I welcome the positivity from the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, on the importance of transparency. It is something that the Government have picked up on in terms of recognition. I again put on the record that all we—this Government and future Governments—do needs to be transparent as we seek to reassure everyone, including your Lordships, that we want to achieve success for the marine environment.

I welcome the noble Lord’s point about pragmatism. The exemption is in place only for one year. We are reviewing our future discards policy and considering how it could be better made to fit the mixed fisheries in UK seas.

Given the time allocated, I am not sure that I want to jest about the Agriculture Bill and some of the exchanges we may have. Of course, I am bound to say that, as everyone knows, there is a considerable legislative framework behind which we are all secure in terms of import standards and requirements in relation to agricultural goods—but perhaps we might leave that for a further moment.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, that we will publicly consult on the JFS next year so I am certainly not looking at needing to wait as long as might have been suggested—two years—before anyone sees it. Drafts are being shared at a high level. Again, it is important that, as we move forward on all these matters, Parliament and your Lordships’ House do the right thing. In the end, if we do not get this right, we will have failed; that is not something that any Government would wish to do with their custodianship of our seas and the opportunities that this responsibility presents to us.

With those comments and the general endorsement of the two noble Lords, I beg to move.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I have received no requests to ask a short question. I beg your pardon. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, wishes to ask a question.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord Grantchester. We are into a technical range of amendments. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked about the Faroe Islands. While the 1999 treaty permits either party to license foreign vessels to fish in this small section of shared sea, it does not mean that there are no rules. Many of the licence conditions will be similar for either party issuing a licence. The UK will still exercise standard control and enforcement. The 1999 treaty also includes a commitment by both parties to co-operate on marine protection measures which further preserve this area.

Considerable work has been done. Certain discussions could obviously be undertaken only once we had left the EU, so negotiations with the Faroe Islands Administration have been taking place this year. I reassure your Lordships that in no way does this mean that there is not proper responsible control. As I said in my opening remarks, we are working with the Faroe Islands because both countries share an ambition for strong governance and custodianship of what is a very small but very important part of our UK EEZ. We should be consistent throughout.

I will look at any further points, but I am not going to embark on any commentary on negotiations and standards. This has been well and truly aired. Standards are supreme.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I have two requests to ask short questions of the Minister. Both noble Lords are in the Chamber. I call the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, we agreed to a treaty in 1999. We have worked closely with Minister Ewing, who is quite rightly ferocious in his support of Scottish fishing interests. We are working collaboratively with the Faroe Islands, respecting an international arrangement. On the historic rights, as I am not the Fisheries Minister but a custodian of this Bill I am not aware of any illegal activity. I had better write to my noble friend so that those who know can give an authorised version.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

I call the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, to ask the next short question of the Minister.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

I am a member of the EU International Agreements Sub-Committee of your Lordships’ House. We are spending a lot of time not only looking at the content of treaties, but also understanding how these are implemented into domestic legislation. I am confused. Can my noble friend explain how the 1999 treaty to which this refers was implemented into domestic legislation? Why did this not lead directly to its continuation or amendment? This is the second time we have looked at this Bill; in the first draft, licensing of fishing boats in our EEZ was considered.

Flood Response

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Monday 10th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Again, my experience is of how extraordinarily resilient communities are, but, very often, they will not admit that they are under great pressure. I went to see a number of farmers in Yorkshire last year. There was a facade of coping, but I was very struck by the powerful sense of devastation felt at losing livestock and all that went with it. I understand that and will pass it back.

On catchments, in both the Agriculture Bill and the Environment Bill the whole concept will be for the farmer to have an ELM, which we will bring forward, but some of the great advances have been seen where there are much wider clusters and you are thinking about how you manage that wider catchment area. A very good example is Slowing the Flow at Pickering, but there are other ways of getting ownership that goes much wider than a number of landowners or farmers, which gives you an advantage. The schemes will be trialled and co-designed with ranges of farmers and landowners so that we get that advantage of working with the countryside and with natural capital.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, perhaps I may take the Minister back to the response that he gave to the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood. The kind of building that goes on in towns and cities—this is particularly true in London—can exacerbate the risk of flooding. I give as an example the frequent removal of front gardens in densely populated urban areas and the substitution of hardstanding, which is usually to accommodate cars. When there is inundation, the effect is often not on the houseowner who has done that but on others. I am old enough to remember a serious example in London about 40 years ago when a very hot summer was followed by extreme rain, and the impact of water running off Hampstead Heath was that many houses at the bottom of that incline were flooded. As we know, that sort of thing is more likely to happen as extreme weather events become more common. Does the Minister think that it is time for planners to take a more active part in preventing that kind of low-level intervention by individual houseowners who exacerbate the risk of flooding?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, that is a very important point; we should all be playing our part. I would like to say to people who want to concrete-over or tarmac their front garden, “Think about it. It might even be your house that is inundated.”. It is important that we look much more at this. I shall pass it back to MHCLG, because I know that it has been considered in your Lordships’ House. Each of us can find ways of reducing run-off and having permeable surfaces. If we need to have hardstanding, how about using gravel or choosing other ways in which we might reduce flooding which might affect either our own house or, perhaps more worryingly, those of our neighbours’?

Office for Environmental Protection

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall

Monday 20th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

The intention of the enforcement options is clear: to get the transgression rectified. The OEP will have the ability to issue an information notice; if that is not resolved, it can issue a decision notice. If failure is still unresolved, the OEP may seek a legal challenge through an environmental review in the Upper Tribunal. There are all sorts of mechanisms by which the OEP’s intention and remit is to rectify whatever is contrary to environmental law.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, in an earlier answer, the Minister said—if I heard him right—that the OEP staff would be somewhere between 60 and 120 people. That is a very large margin. Since capacity will be critical to the OEP’s ability to fulfil its duties—indeed, to it having the teeth referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb—can he say how the numbers are to be determined and why that margin is quite so wide?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Yes, I asked rather the same question of officials, if I may say so. The OEP must lay its annual statement of accounts before Parliament, including an assessment of whether it has been provided with sufficient funds to carry out its functions. Clearly, we want to get the OEP set up and we need to establish a board and a chair before it becomes operational. We will have to see. As I say, I used the figure of 60 to 120 people. It may be 100. We are not setting a distinct figure. What we want is for the job to be done properly.