Old Palace Yard

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Berkeley

Thursday 7th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord Gardiner of Kimble)]

My Lords, I have not been involved directly in discussions to remove through traffic from Old Palace Yard, but I am aware that parliamentary authorities are working with Westminster City Council, Transport for London and the Mayor of London’s office on the development of a scheme for the Parliament Square area. The scheme looks to improve safety and the environment, and includes assessing the possibility of removing vehicular through traffic from Old Palace Yard to Parliament Square.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I am very grateful to the Senior Deputy Speaker for his Answer. Would he not agree that the existing traffic through Old Palace Yard and the confusing pedestrian crossings are unsafe and not very attractive from an environmental point of view? Will he add his weight to and participate in these ongoing discussions to pedestrianise Old Palace Yard and move those barriers a bit further away—obviously, we need security—so that everybody can enjoy Old Palace Yard without fear of being run over?

[The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord Gardiner of Kimble)]

My Lords, I recognise what the noble Lord has said. I should say that the political oversight group comprises Mr Speaker and the Lord Speaker, so we already have substantial weight on the parliamentary side. The initial concept design work is being undertaken by a consortium of engineers and architects, and we hope it will be finished by the end of the year. It will then need to go out for consultation to the statutory authorities and local residents, and implementation would be drawn up thereafter.

Fishery Protection Squadron

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Berkeley

Wednesday 12th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

This issue goes back to the very essence of sustainability and the reason why we need to do this. Heightened surveillance is in the long-term interests of the fishing fleets—for all vessels, whether they are foreign and subject to negotiation, or our own. It is about ensuring that sustainable stocks are in our waters and are fished properly. That is why, as I outlined, we have the electronic reporting and data system, the vessel monitoring system and even more innovative technologies to complement what we already have. This issue is really important.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, have the Government thought of ordering these new fishery protection vessels from Appledore shipyard, which needs some more orders? I believe that it built some vessels for Ireland. If not, where are these new vessels being procured from?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I cannot speak of Appledore, although I have heard of it, but under the terms of the Fisheries Bill there will be opportunities for varying grants, including for port infrastructure. We will clearly need to think about this area because we want to have vibrant coastal communities, not only through vessel repairs and construction but by having vibrant fishing fleets in sustainable waters.

Farm Subsidies

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Berkeley

Wednesday 30th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, that is clearly for the Treasury and whoever is in the new Government, so at this stage I cannot say that to the noble and learned Lord. It will be for whichever Government are in office to decide on their spending commitments. What I am absolutely clear on is that this Government continue to support farmers in the way I have described and, if re-elected, that is the system which we will bring forward.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, what support will there be for hill farmers, who I believe will suffer a 25% duty on lamb that is exported to the continent? Is the reimbursement of that 25%, or whatever it is, part of this support package?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

We think that there is a great future for British livestock farming. We will support the work of hill farmers, because of the enhancement to the environment in beautiful areas where pastoral farming has been so essential. We will support that sector, as I have said. As for the point about a loss, in securing the deal that we have, we will also then embark on a free trade arrangement with our EU friends and partners. I do not think that what the noble Lord has described will obtain.

Environment Plan

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Berkeley

Thursday 29th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I apologise that I am not in a position today to go beyond a certain point because I must not pre-empt what is coming forward. All I can say is that these are issues that have come forward and been aired in the consultation. We will bring forward proposals; Parliament will have time to look at them before Christmas, I hope. We will make sure it is possible for Parliament to reflect on this, and will ensure further observations too. We want to get this right. It is essential that we enhance the environment.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Government welcome the present campaign called “Extinction Rebellion”? It is designed to give people time to reflect when they are stuck at traffic lights that they are sitting in a very polluting vehicle in the middle of a city. I do not know how many noble Lords have been held up by traffic. I understand the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, was held up for seven minutes and looked extremely happy to be reflecting. Is this not something we should be taking more seriously, to help implement the IPCC’s report, which came out last week, on global warming targets?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Lord has said something very important. The City of Westminster has also had a “stop idling your engine” policy. This is all about how we ensure that, whether near schools or traffic lights, wherever there are jams people switch their engines off. This is where we get the accumulations of pollution in particular. We need to think about it; I agree with the noble Lord. We need to be doing more ourselves to counter pollution.

Sustainable Fisheries for Future Generations

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Berkeley

Wednesday 4th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Yes, my Lords.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware of my interest in special protection areas for birds in Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. When I went to see one of the officials of Natural England and asked how this was going to be enforced, he said the biggest problem was people in kayaks disturbing nests, and that it would be enforced by the Royal Navy. I do not know how the Navy is expected to prevent people in kayaks fiddling with nests, but I am sure that my noble friend’s aircraft carriers are not the most suitable craft.

I hear in Cornwall many stories about how quotas for fishermen have been sold to foreign fishermen, and people are sitting at home enjoying the money they have from these foreign fishermen, presumably for inshore waters. How will this new system deal with people who have bought these quotas commercially? Is the idea that they will be stopped from fishing in the places that they thought they had bought quotas to fish in?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, there are current economic link conditions requiring that all vessels fishing against UK quota must land at least 50% of quota, have at least 50% of crew normally resident in the UK, incur at least 50% of operating expenditure in the UK or gift quota to the under-10-metre fleet. That is what all vessels shipping against the UK quota have to do. Clearly this is a matter we want to look into but that is the current position. There may be further consideration, but that is where we are at the moment.

Water: Bills and Executive Remuneration

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Berkeley

Tuesday 3rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am absolutely clear that Ofwat’s requirements of companies are very clear on the issue of performance-related executive pay. We are willing to take regulatory action to support Ofwat’s reforms if water companies do not readily co-operate.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that one way of reducing water bills would be for the water companies to reduce their dividends? Last year, Thames Water declared a £55 million dividend which then got paid to one of its holding companies and, through a complex chain, ended up at Macquarie. It then had the gall to say in its annual report:

“No dividends or interest on shareholder debt was paid to external shareholders”,


in the same year. Surely that is stretching truth and credulity much too far. Will the Minister do something about that, please?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I feel I am repeating exactly what Ofwat has announced, as it is the statutory regulator, in terms of its requirements on increasing transparency on both dividends and executive pay. We are absolutely clear that this is a public service provided under private ownership and there are responsibilities that go with that. There have been very considerable improvements since privatisation, but there is a wake-up call to the water companies.

Plastic Packaging

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Berkeley

Wednesday 2nd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, as I say, I think that industry is absolutely seized of this. I could take noble Lords through the companies involved in coffee and coffee cups, and the number of them that are now dealing with rewards, with water filling stations in their coffee shops, et cetera. I think that what we are looking at now is the beginning of a considerable revolution in the way we do things.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, one of the consequences of the Government’s Brexit policy is that all pallets importing food into the UK or exporting it from here will have to be disinfected at the frontier if they are made of timber. Will the Minister encourage the use of recycled plastic for pallets so that this does not have to happen? It would also save some of the trees that are used in pallets.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, wearing my other hat as Minister for Biosecurity I know that the noble Lord will well understand some of the dangers that we have had from pests and diseases coming through in timber packaging. I take the point very seriously indeed. We need to look at all sorts of innovative ways of reusing and recycling plastic. He has given a very good example of the reuse and recycling of materials.

Bat Habitats Regulation Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Berkeley

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 27th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, I join your Lordships in thanking my noble friend Lord Cormack for the opportunity to respond and contribute to the Second Reading of the Bill and hear many passionate contributions. I have no personal declarations to make, but I did build a new outbuilding some years ago; within a year, there was an extraordinary arrival of bats. Like many of your Lordships, I was very pleased by their arrival.

As said by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, most of the 18 species of bats found in the UK evolved to live, breed and forage in or around trees and caves but have adapted over the centuries to roost in buildings—an adaptation accelerated by modern development, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. These building roosts are now essential to the survival of many bat species, including the Natterer’s bat, a species for which the UK’s population is of international importance. Churches play a vital role in the survival of bats. I was also interested to hear, in the extraordinary contribution from my noble friend Lord Goschen, about what is happening in the natural landscape of a part of Africa and how bats play an extraordinary part in ecosystems across the globe.

However, the Government and I recognise that bats in some churches give rise to both distress for congregations and damage to our cultural heritage. I obviously agree with what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich said about his experiences. Indeed, I endorse the work of the Church Monuments Society, to which my noble friends Lord Cormack and Lady Hooper referred in particular. We are taking this problem seriously. We take responsibility for our obligations to heritage, community and worship. That is why we are working with Historic England, Natural England and the Heritage Lottery Fund to alleviate the problem.

My noble friend Lady Hooper asked about progress with research and pilot schemes. Following a research project and a pilot with three churches, Natural England has engaged with 20 individual churches and worked at diocesan level to develop plans and proposals to manage the issues. This approach will be rolled out to a further 80 churches. They are learning from the pilot, training hundreds of volunteers and professional ecologists, and sharing the approaches with a wider network of 700 churches. I say in this connection that many volunteers will be from the Bat Conservation Trust. Bat helpline volunteers, who advise the public and churches, are employed and trained by Natural England and follow Natural England policy guidelines. We have found no evidence that they are overzealous or over-precautionary, and customer satisfaction with the service is high—that was borne out by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell. In fact, I have here a figure of 97% for those who said that the service was excellent, and none was dissatisfied.

The solutions include ultrasound-emitting devices to deter bats from using specific areas of a church, excluding bats from the interior of churches, and the provision of alternative access points and artificial roosting opportunities. Radio-tagging is used both to identify the species and where it is entering, and to monitor success.

All species of bat are subject to protection under the EU habitats directive, which will continue under UK law through the withdrawal Bill. It is a criminal offence deliberately to kill, injure, take or disturb bats. Bat species are also protected from disturbance in their place of rest or the deliberate obstruction of such locations.

The Bill put forward today by my noble friend proposes that bats be excluded from a building used for public worship unless it has been demonstrated that their presence would not have a significant adverse impact on the users of such a place. Such a blanket prohibition does not take account of the importance of some churches to some of our most vulnerable bat populations, or of the considerable steps that the Government in collaboration with others are already taking to alleviate and mitigate the impacts in such places where bats are causing nuisance or distress.

A recent three-year project led by Defra and undertaken by Bristol University researched and developed techniques to assist churches in developing mitigation strategies for bat-related problems. This led to a pilot project led by Historic England to implement some of the identified solutions. As a number of your Lordships have said, last year, Natural England, with the Church of England, Historic England, the Churches Conservation Trust and the Bat Conservation Trust, successfully bid for £415,000 from the Heritage Lottery Fund to develop further some of these solutions and put them in place in badly affected churches across the country.

I can report that 100 of the worst-affected churches have been surveyed. In the three most severely affected, All Saints at Braunston-in-Rutland, All Saints Swanton Morley—to which the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich referred, and which is in his own diocese—and Holy Trinity, Tattershall, mentioned by my noble friend Lord Cormack, trial solutions have been agreed and detailed, costed plans will be now be put in place. These churches host sizeable colonies of bats, including, at Tattershall, breeding populations of seven species of bats. The approaches include restricting access to certain parts of the building and the provision of alternative, artificial roosts nearby. In the case of All Saints, Braunston, this artificial roost will have a webcam to allow activity to be viewed, and the project is working with the community to offer opportunities to witness the spectacle of hundreds of bats emerging at dusk. At Holy Trinity, Tattershall, the congregation has embraced the presence of the bats, including them as part of their visitor attraction. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, is right that the challenge is how to find a solution whereby bats and ourselves coexist in harmony. Indeed, an application for a further £3.8 million for stage 2 of the project will be submitted to the Heritage Lottery Fund in June of this year to enable such solutions to be put in place for more affected churches. I am sure that noble Lords will join me in wishing the bid well.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering referred to the church in Ellerburn, about which I have a quite substantial note. There again, Defra and Historic England collaborated with Natural England—Natural England taking the lead—to find an acceptable solution at St Hilda’s. Of course, I endorse all that my noble friend did to ensure the progress that was made. Again, a solution was found and after the exclusion operation was complete, successive years of monitoring showed that the bats were able to continue roosting under the tiles and in the walls but were no longer able to gain access to the interior of the church. Since the work took place the congregation has been able to use the church for worship once again.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am very grateful for the Minister’s response. His description of phase 1 of this joint study and the budget for phase 2, and what is contained in it, seemed to me incredibly good value compared to some of the projects we come across. Is he confident that the solution that could be applied to the many churches that have been described this afternoon, and others where there is a problem, can be done at a cost that is affordable for local congregations and other small funds? Or is there going to be a big shortage of funding for anything useful to happen?

Water Supply Disruption

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Berkeley

Tuesday 6th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement and for his explanation of all the work that the water companies and their engineers are doing to reinstate supplies. It must have been a very hard job, day and night in pretty horrible conditions, and the engineers deserve all our thanks. Whether the water companies deserve our thanks is a completely different issue. It is obvious that when the temperature gets cold, the freezing depth goes down and eventually will probably hit a pipe; whether it is a quick or a slow thaw probably does not matter very much. I was cycling through Trafalgar Square this morning and there were two enormous floods coming out of manhole covers that looked to be nothing like water company manholes, so God knows what is happening to the rest of the services in Trafalgar Square. Not that that matters—it is just that it is near here.

My worry is that while Ministers are quite rightly saying that they are going to get a grip on Ofwat and the water companies—I was pleased that the Minister talked about the strategic policy statement and ended up by saying that the water industry works for everyone—that is not what has happened in the last five years. Ofwat, and to some extent the Ministers, have been asleep on the job. I have been saying for the last five years that Thames Water needed looking at because Macquarie bank has managed to reduce its level of assets to about 25% of what they were when it started, and then promptly went after the money to somewhere more attractive and sold Thames Water to the extent that it could not fund the Thames Tideway tunnel on its own and had to seek a government guarantee. That investment could have gone into improving the quality of the pipes, reducing leakages and so on. As the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, said, it needs more capital, but there really needs to be a massive change of attitude on the part of Ofwat to do what the Minister said and hold the water companies to account so that we never have this again. The companies should have enough assets to invest so that they can produce a much better system where the leakages are less; the charges, hopefully, are less; and it is about what the customer wants rather than what suits the companies in making the most massive amount of money in salaries and so on in the City. I look forward to the Minister’s comments.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, again, so many of the noble Lord’s comments are in line with what I said and what the Secretary of State was very clear about last week. Some water authorities are, in my candid view, better than others. I have a list of some of the many projects that certain water companies are undertaking, whether investment or dramatically improving water on beaches. There are some very good examples of where that investment of £140 billion since privatisation has undoubtedly borne fruit, whether it is in sewers, flooding, pollution or reduction in nitrates. But there is no doubt that the game needs to be upped, and that improvements in certain water companies need to be considered.

As I said, Ofwat has already given Thames Water a substantial fine for missing leakage targets. When one thinks of water shortages in the south-east and other places with large populations, it is imperative to bear down on continuing leaks very strongly. We need to ensure that water companies are investing properly. In fairness, I have to say that leakage levels are down by a third since privatisation and bills since 1994 are but 3% higher—but there is room for considerable improvement. That is what my right honourable friend the Secretary of State is looking for. We are clear that if Ofwat needs any further powers, we will actively look at them.

Recycling: Chinese Import Ban

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Berkeley

Monday 5th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, following considerable investment, there are now about 40 large municipal waste plants. They are highly regulated by the Environment Agency precisely to ensure that we recover energy and, importantly, they also operate within all the emission tests. I do not have the precise figure for what is currently recyclable but I will write to the noble Lord. However, the whole essence of our objective is to cut the amount of plastic in circulation and to reduce the variety of plastic so that we can recycle ever more.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

In his original Answer to my noble friend Lady Jones, the Minister mentioned that the Government were looking for alternative markets to replace the Chinese market as the current receptacle for much waste. Is it not immoral to say that we are just going to look for another place in the world to dump the rubbish that we should be looking after ourselves?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, there obviously need to be alternatives and we are looking at them. Nothing is exported in the way that the noble Lord describes—there are very strong and strict requirements. I agree with him about wanting to recycle more at home but a number of countries—Turkey, Taiwan, Vietnam and India—all have resources and are taking more waste. However, we certainly want to work more on recycling at home.

Japanese Knotweed

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Berkeley

Tuesday 7th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, there are community protection notices, which give local authorities and the police powers. I suggest that the noble Baroness considers that way forward.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of Japanese seaweed? I do not think you can eat it, but it is a serious invasive species in our watercourses and rivers. What action will the Government take to try to control that?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, there is a list of invasive species that we very much want to manage and control. The most important thing is biosecurity and awareness campaigns such as “Check, Clean, Dry”. We each have a responsibility to help deal with invasive species.

Air Quality: London

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Berkeley

Thursday 15th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I understand the noble Lord’s wish that we do something immediately. There is no quick bullet to this, but I assure your Lordships that considerable work is going on into how we reduce traffic, change how we conduct ourselves and increase the number of vehicles that have low emissions. All of that is part of the investment. The London Taxi Company—part of Geely—has been awarded £17 million under the Government’s regional growth fund precisely to get another generation of low-emission black taxis.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister said he is very keen to lower the number of vehicles so as to reduce pollution. He is absolutely right on that, but surely the main solution must be to increase public transport. How can he link an increase in the quality and scope of public transport with the drastic cuts imposed on local authorities all the way round the country?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, turning to London as that is where we are, London now has the largest fleet of hybrid buses. There are 600 already on the road and by next year that will be up to 1,700. There is a lot of very good work going on and we need to work in partnership with local government across the country. The economy and its restoration will make possible all the things that many of us want. If we do not have a strong, secure economy, we will not be able to do the things that all of us would like to do.

Gambling: Fixed-odds Betting Terminals

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Berkeley

Monday 9th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the new measures will require those accessing stakes of over £50 to use account-based play or to load cash. However, interestingly, the Gambling Commission reported on Friday on its wish to raise the bar on social responsibility and working with operators to ensure that there is much more adherence to assisting people who gamble.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister see any connection between the gambling law and the problems of money laundering that have just been discussed, and what happened with HSBC five years ago, when the noble Lord, Lord Green, apparently was running the shop and 5 million Swiss francs in cash were handed over in a plastic bag?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am a fairly even-minded person, but we are dealing with a question where, in 2000, there were no FOBTs and, by 2010, there were 30,000 FOBTs. That is the situation that this Government now seek to address. The deputy leader of the noble Lord’s party has admitted that what happened was a mistake, and we are now dealing with that.

Broadband and Mobile Coverage

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Berkeley

Tuesday 13th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, as I said earlier, the Government wish there to be as many opportunities as possible for people to pay bills online, and that is increasingly the way that things will go. However, I will look into the matter of paper bills. I honestly think that those who are not in a position to pay online should not be expected to pay over and above.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I believe that the 98% that the Minister mentioned includes the county of Cornwall, and I congratulate him on that. However, the Isles of Scilly are not included and have probably the worst and most expensive transport links in the whole UK—and they are still on 2G. When does he see broadband going to the Isles of Scilly?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, what a great part of the United Kingdom that is. It is interesting—the noble Lord is absolutely right—that the superfast Cornwall project is doing extremely well, and I am pleased to say that consultation notices have been issued by the Marine Management Organisation to ensure that the cable goes under the sea. That will ensure, I hope by the last quarter of this year, that the Isles of Scilly will have superfast broadband.

Broadband and Mobile Coverage

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Berkeley

Thursday 30th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

Will the Minister say when Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly will get this? I thought they were a priority area. They are a rural area and they should be a priority, but the Scilly Isles do not even have 3G yet.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

That is very interesting. I will look at it in even more detail because, funnily enough, I was meeting some people from Cornwall only two days ago, who said that in fact Cornwall has been very successful and that there is quite a good degree of capacity there because it has a great tourist interest. There has been a great increase in the number of visitors, and we need to accommodate that. However, I will look into that because one of the assurances I had was that Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly were well provided for.