Heritage Organisations: Coal Supplies

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Faulkner of Worcester

Thursday 21st January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and remind the House of my interest as president of the Heritage Railway Association and vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Heritage Rail.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con) [V]]

[Inaudible]—of the heritage sector. The legislation, which will come into force from May 2021, will end the sale of bituminous coal to households in England and lead to significant health benefits. While we acknowledge the indirect impact that this may have on the supply of coal to businesses, it is vital that the Government and the sector continue to work together to transition to cleaner alternatives.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, I know that the Minister appreciates the value of the heritage rail sector, but how does he envisage that heritage steam will continue to have access to high-quality bituminous coal if no UK-mined coal is available after next year? Transporting coal great distances from countries such as Russia or Australia adds to CO₂ emissions and is expensive. Would it not make more sense for the mining of modest amounts of steam coal to continue in areas such as the north-east and south Wales?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the legislation that Defra is bringing forward relates to households, and therefore we are working with the sector. It is important that we work with it not only through policy development but in looking at alternatives. Also, I understand that heritage rail has taken steps to improve efficiency and mitigate emissions. Therefore, as I said in my earlier reply, it is important that we work together on this, but this legislation relates to domestic consumption.

Rural Landlords and Land Letting: Reform

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Faulkner of Worcester

Thursday 21st January 2021 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I start by declaring my farming interests as set out in the register. With agricultural tenancy matters being devolved, I speak from an English perspective. I express my gratitude, along with other noble Lords, to my noble friend Lady Rock for raising this matter for debate as we start the transition towards a new domestic agriculture policy—a transition that we believe will help our farmers to stay competitive and produce high-quality food, for which they are renowned, while protecting and enhancing the environment, on which a sustainable and productive future depends.

To put the importance of the debate in context, as has been said, a third of all farmland in England is tenanted, with 13% of farms wholly tenanted and 33% with a mixed tenure, both owning and renting land. This variety in land tenure and the ability to rent land flexibly is important, because it enables tenants and owners to expand, responding to market changes by renting out additional parcels of land. It also provides a route into farming for new entrants, bringing new skills and ideas into the sector.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Clark, and my noble friend Lord Inglewood that I am fully seized of the points made about Newton Rigg. I am in dialogue with the Department for Education and I understand that feelings are running high in Cumbria.

The Government believe that a vibrant and flourishing tenant farming sector is vital. The legislative framework for agricultural tenancies must enable the development of successful farm businesses for tenants and an appropriate rental return for owners. This is how we will maintain confidence in the let sector and ensure ongoing opportunities for tenants and new entrants to land.

As many will recall, we discussed during the passage of the Agriculture Bill the importance of new entrants and the role that renting land through the county farm system has played in facilitating that. In the agricultural transition plan, the Government have set out plans for a new funding scheme to create lasting opportunities for new entrants to access land, infrastructure and support to establish successful and innovative businesses, working with county farm estates and other landowners. We have started work to develop this new entrants scheme through a co-design process, with the aim to provide further details by September and introduce the scheme in 2022.

My noble friend Lady Rock highlighted the role of the Tenancy Reform Industry Group. Defra has regular meetings with TRIG to discuss tenancy policy and legislation. I express my personal thanks to all TRIG members for their work over many years in providing expert insights and advice, but it is the responsibility of government to decide policy.

I hope everyone would agree that developing consensus is the best way forward. A number of points have been made on this. I think the noble Lord, Lord Curry, raised partnership. No contractual arrangement flourishes if one or both parties are unhappy. That is why having the confidence to let more land is key to the route to getting more entrants into the let farming sector. If confidence is undermined, what is to prevent owners withdrawing let land and reducing the opportunities we all dearly want for existing and future tenants to come into the sector?

The tenancy reforms the Government delivered through the Agriculture Act 2020 had widespread support from TRIG and other respondents to our 2019 public consultation. These reforms have helped to modernise and update the Agricultural Holdings Act 1986. They give tenants greater flexibility on when to apply for succession on retirement, modernise the suitability test for incoming tenants, and provide a balanced dispute process for tenants who would be unreasonably prevented from varying outdated, restrictive terms that might be a barrier to entering into future schemes.

The focus of these tenancy reforms is specifically on the older, 1986 legislation, not on the more modern farm business tenancies. This is because agreements under the 1986 Act were negotiated more than 30 to 40 years ago in a very different commercial and policy environment. My understanding is that, with 19,400 AHA holdings and 17,600 FBT holdings, we are seeing a reduction in AHA holdings and an increase in FBT holdings. Of course, we want modern commercial agreements, which the FBTs can provide, negotiated more recently with freedom of contract. They are reviewed more regularly, giving tenants the opportunity to renegotiate terms if that is deemed necessary. That is why the responses to our public consultation, in terms of reform of dispute provisions, for example, were very much concentrated on AHA holdings tenancies.

The Government are working with TRIG to develop the supporting regulations to implement the 1986 Act dispute reforms and to modernise the suitability test criteria for tenants who apply for succession. This will make sure that a fair dispute process is put in place that considers the interests of the tenant and the landlord and that incoming succession tenants show that they have the farming and business skills needed to build viable businesses in future. Following two recent constructive meetings with TRIG, we are making good progress with developing these regulations and, subject to parliamentary time, we intend to implement them later this year. When this focused work on the new tenancy regulations is completed, we will continue our engagement with TRIG to explore whether there is industry consensus on the need for further legislative reform and to consider whether non-legislative options might be effective.

I turn to taxation. One of the first things that I was told when I went on the Front Bench was, “Be very cautious if engaging in taxation matters and always say, ‘This is a matter for the Chancellor’”. I would say to noble Lords that, in my briefing for this debate, I was very pleased to be joined by, as well as my officials, Treasury officials. I will be passing back to the Treasury and assessing the points that have been made in this debate on taxation and I am grateful to all noble Lords for raising those matters. I recognise that the fiscal framework plays an essential role in owners’ decisions whether to let land and on the length of tenancy terms offered. However, I think that other factors are important, too, such as the size, quality and location of the land and personal motivations for owning it.

I am aware of the work that TRIG has done to investigate tax issues, suggesting that tax changes might help to incentivise the letting of agricultural land and encourage longer-term tenancies—for example, through limited income tax relief on farmland rents. The Government are committed to a fair and sustainable tax system and keep all taxes under review as a matter of course—that is the Treasury bit. The impact and potential unintended consequences of tax reform need careful analysis, as I hope everyone would agree.

For example, the proposal from the Tenant Farmers Association to limit the availability of agricultural property relief to owners who let land for 10 years or longer could result in owners instead using other ways—for instance, contract farming or taking the land back in hand—to retain the benefits of that relief. I am mindful of wanting to have the right climate for owners—I think particularly of smaller parcels of land. Unfortunately, there is a historical feeling that this is always about the big estates and small tenant farmers. I think that the opportunities for more land coming on to let will be from medium and smaller-size farmers who no longer want to farm and want to have someone, possibly a neighbour or a new entrant, coming into the industry. Relationships are again essential.

I understand the point made by many noble Lords about longer-term tenancies. It is recognised that they provide security for many tenants to invest and grow their businesses. It is also important to understand that shorter-term tenancies can sometimes be more suitable for businesses—I have heard that from certain quarters, including my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach, who is engaged in a number of these matters. Short-term lets may be more appropriate for some new entrants looking to rent land on a short-term basis to gain experience without committing to long-term potential risks. Short-term lets can also be more suitable for some seasonal horticultural businesses. The flexibility over the length of tenancy and maintaining owners’ confidence in the let sector can only encourage more agricultural land into the let sector. However, I understand the points that have been made about longer tenancies and their dynamic.

Turning to ELM, raised by many noble Lords—my noble friends Lord Caithness and Lady McIntosh, the noble Lords, Lord Greaves and Lord Redesdale, and the noble Earl, Lord Devon, among others—what we are doing here is co-designing. It is essential that we work across the piece with tenant farmers and those working on common land. As part of our co-design process with industry, we are considering questions about the need for landlord consent to tenants entering schemes and the length of scheme agreements to ensure that our future schemes are broadly accessible, as well as providing the stability needed to support the delivery of public goods, such as environmental improvements. Indeed, one of the tests and trials includes six areas where landowners and tenants are working together. An example is an estate in County Durham and North Yorkshire covering an area of more than 7,000 acres. This is about a collaborative system of planning and delivering environmental management on land that encompasses a variety of farming systems and a tapestry of habitats. We want to ensure that the collaboration between tenants and owners can be supported and incentivised.

Many noble Lords asked about further legislation. I would not be straightforward with your Lordships if I did not say that the pressure on primary legislation at the moment across Whitehall is intense. Therefore, it would be wrong of me to make a promise to my noble friend Lady Rock on the timing of any further legislative proposals. We want to get through what we have said we will do with the Agriculture Act 2020 and see how that works. We want to work with TRIG and all interested parties to see how we can have a dynamic tenanted relationship and system. It would be wrong of me to say that I can promise primary legislation in the foreseeable future. I say that candidly because I simply do not have command of the legislative programme. We want to find ways to resolve the points that have been raised today so that there is a genuinely benign and dynamic relationship between owners and what I hope will be an increasing number of new entrants. That is why the work that we are doing with the county farms is so important.

A number of noble Lords raised the issue of trees. Obviously, we want to ensure, whether on owned or tenanted land, that it is the person engaged in the outcome of this, whether the tenant or the landlord, and the person who will be undertaking the work who should have the reward. Where tenants are undertaking that, of course they should be rewarded.

I am starting to get messages of concern from our gallant Whip about the time that I am taking. I assure all noble Lords that these matters are current and live. I am grateful to my noble friend for raising this important matter, as reflected by the considerable number of your Lordships who have participated in the debate, and I will follow it up with a letter in the usual manner to cover some of these important points in further detail.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

As this debate has now concluded, the Grand Committee stands adjourned until 3.45 pm. I remind Members to ensure that they have sanitised their desks and chairs before leaving the Room.

Fisheries Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Faulkner of Worcester

Consideration of Commons amendments & Ping Pong (Hansard) & Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords & Ping Pong (Minutes of Proceedings): House of Lords
Thursday 12th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, I express my appreciation to the Minister for the considerate and thoughtful way in which he responded to the debate. I would just like clarification on that very last point. He has drawn attention, quite rightly, to the constitutional history between the United Kingdom Government and the Channel Islands. Does he not accept that the way in which harmony can be restored is by just saying “yes” to this question: if the Channel Islands do not consent to the use of the PEC, will the Government not insist on it?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, I understand the instincts of the noble Lord exactly. On international obligations, the whole point about the last resort is that, if international obligations were not being adhered to in a certain part of the British family, it would be the responsibility of the UK Government to act accordingly. All I say in answering the noble Lord— positively, I hope—is that I believe that everyone I have spoken to who would have responsibility would work collaboratively and exhaust every option available. It would be triggered only if all those options were exhausted in order to adhere to international obligations. This is my point.

Also—if I am allowed to say this and if this is the last moment—I respect immensely all noble Lords who have participated in the consideration of this Fisheries Bill. This is indeed my first experience of us dealing with a Bill as the first House; I can tell your Lordships that, when I saw the number of amendments coming back from the other place, I was not the only one whose heart may have sunk a bit. I think it shows that, when we are the second House and have other points to make, the other place sends us messages back as well. I place on record my deep appreciation of the Front Bench opposite and the Back Benches on all sides of the House for the collaborative way in which I believe we have worked, seeking to do the best we can for the marine environment and the future of our fisheries communities—which, after all, bring us such nutritious food, often in very difficult circumstances. I place my thanks on record and have no doubt that we will have further work to do.

Agriculture Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Faulkner of Worcester

Committee stage & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 23rd July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords for participating in this debate. I particularly thank my noble friend Lady Fookes —the word “tenacity” comes to mind. I think everyone agrees that animals should be slaughtered as close as possible to where they have spent their productive lives. I understand, and indeed share, the sentiments behind this amendment.

Over the last 30 years, EU free trade rules have prevented previous Administrations from taking meaningful action on live exports. Having left the EU, the Government are clear that we want to tackle this issue. However, any restriction on trade must of course be in accordance with WTO rules. We are giving careful consideration to the animal health and public morals exceptions in the design of our policy. My noble friend Lord Randall of Uxbridge used the word “complex”, which is apposite.

The Government committed in their manifesto to end excessively long journeys of animals going for slaughter or fattening. In 2018, along with the devolved Administrations, we tasked the independent Farm Animal Welfare Committee, or FAWC—now actually called AWC—to look into controlling live exports and at what improvements should be made to animal welfare in transport. FAWC produced a report that provides a good basis for future reforms to control live exports and improve animal welfare in transport more broadly, which is also very important.

My noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach and others referred to Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland will continue to apply the current EU rules as a result of the Northern Ireland protocol, and so cannot prevent the export of live animals to the EU and beyond. While the amendment recognises that fact, it would regrettably create a loophole which would be detrimental to animal welfare. Animals could be transported from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, rested for a short time in accordance with EU law, and then transported to the EU or a third country. There is also a risk that, to ensure enforcement was possible, we would need to introduce greater restrictions on animal movements from Great Britain to Northern Ireland.

I say to all noble Lords that the Government are actively considering how they will take forward their manifesto pledge. The noble Lord, Lord Trees, asked whether the amendment would hasten this; as I have said, the Government are actively considering how they will bring forward their manifesto pledge to end long journeys to slaughter and fattening, using the FAWC report as a basis for future proposals.

I turn to Amendment 277. While allowed under EU law, the production of foie gras from ducks or geese by using force-feeding raises serious welfare concerns. The domestic production of foie gras by force-feeding is not compatible with our animal welfare legislation. However, this amendment would penalise someone for bringing foie gras into the country for their personal consumption. The individual British consumer or retailer currently has the choice to engage with the product or not. I understand the strength of feeling on the issue, but in the Government’s view the Bill is about reforming domestic agriculture, not introducing penalties to consumers.

As I ask my noble friend Lady Fookes to withdraw her amendment, I hope that she will not suggest that I am weak or vacillating. We are seeking to plot a course through a complex issue to adhere to and achieve our manifesto commitment. With that, I hope my noble friend will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

My Lords, I have received no requests from noble Lords to speak after the Minister, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes.

Fisheries Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Faulkner of Worcester

Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 24th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am particularly grateful for the noble Lord’s amendment because it gives me the opportunity to expand further on how our definition of MSY relates to the fisheries objectives, in particular the precautionary objective, and to our ecosystem approach to fisheries management. I found it immensely rewarding to have early conversations with the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and fisheries scientists to explore these matters. I am most grateful to the noble Lord and the scientists for their consideration and time in these helpful discussions.

Under the common fisheries policy, fisheries management has largely focused on the management of individual stocks. Clearly fish stocks interact, however, and fisheries activity also has wider impacts on the marine environment. That is why in our 2018 White Paper we committed to moving towards a more holistic ecosystem approach to fisheries management. This approach is supported by emerging best practice in fisheries science. For example—I emphasise this to my noble friend Lady McIntosh—ICES, the international body that advises on fish stocks, now provides advice on sustainable range alongside the traditional point estimate for MSY. Rather than trying to fish all stocks simultaneously at the point of MSY, setting harvest rates within a sustainable range provides flexibility when dealing with the complex interactions in mixed fisheries.

I say to my noble friend Lady McIntosh that we will be continuing to work with ICES, which, as I say, is an international body of great reputation. For instance, when scientifically justified, the provisions in the Bill would already allow us to underexploit some stocks marginally in the short term in order to seek to ensure that all stocks can be fished sustainably. Given that MSY assessments can fluctuate significantly due to scientific uncertainty, it would also allow us to smooth out year-by-year changes in catch limits to help to stabilise progress towards MSY and provide the industry with greater certainty. Such an approach better reflects the future direction of UK fisheries policy.

I say directly to the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and others, that, in future, fisheries management decisions for both single and mixed fisheries will be based on data-driven science and will include broader ecosystem considerations, including environmental change, together with improving the alignment of fisheries management with fisheries science. Our fisheries science specialists at Cefas are already developing cutting-edge mixed fisheries modelling for the North Sea, the Irish Sea and the Celtic Sea to understand better the benefits of future fisheries catches when moving towards MSY and even to lower exploitation rates, and to reduce the risks of stock depletion.

I thank my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay; I have found that it is essential to hear an expert lawyer’s view. The current definition of MSY in the Bill includes references to theoretical MSY and is linked to the reproduction process of stocks because doing otherwise would in practice further restrict the definition and make it more difficult to follow. Giving other factors equal weight as part of the MSY definition in itself, as these amendments propose, could dilute the key criterion of maintaining the reproduction process of stocks.

The MSY definition as currently worded will instead permit us to set harvest rates within sustainable ranges. This provides the necessary flexibility to look at fish stocks collectively within the ecosystem. It enables us to balance complex biological and ecological interactions within our fisheries as we work to rebuild stocks while allowing a sustainable fishing industry. Our definition is compatible with the current ICES interpretation of MSY.

With that explanation of the wider elements of managing our complex mixed fisheries, as well as the commitment around the use of data-driven science to ground our fisheries management decisions, I very much hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[The Deputy Speaker]

My Lords, I have received no requests from any noble Lord wishing to come in with a short question for elucidation, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Krebs.