Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Teverson

Thursday 25th July 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend and the noble Baroness for tabling these amendments, and for an illuminating, positive and helpful debate. In Committee, we can help to fine tune a Bill. My noble friend mentioned helping the Government; our duty is to help the nation to get this right. Certainty, trust and the smooth passage of transitional arrangements are certainly key.

Amendment 55AK inserts a requirement for the fixed-price certificate scheme to replicate the arrangements under the renewables obligation. The amendment aims to ensure that the fixed-price certificate scheme will be based upon and replace the RO, which is indeed our intention. I can confirm for my noble friend Lord Stephen that those generators that would otherwise qualify to receive renewables obligation certificates in 2027 and beyond will instead qualify for fixed-price certificates.

Clause 46 already mirrors much of the primary legislation for the RO to ensure that we are able to replicate the effect of the RO, so far as is appropriate. The differences from the RO are a result of the different ways in which the schemes operate; for example, the fact that the price of certificates will be fixed means that this will no longer be a market-based scheme. Amendment 55AL removes the provisions for both regular and ad hoc reviews of support levels under the fixed-price certificate scheme. The Government do not expect to make regular support-level changes under the fixed-price certificate scheme. However, I hope that noble Lords would accept that the Government must be able to respond to significant unexpected changes, such as major cost reductions or increases within a particular technology, so that we can deliver the generation we need for our renewables targets at value for money for consumers.

My noble friend mentioned secondary legislation. In the autumn of 2014, we intend to consult on the secondary legislation for the transition of the renewables obligation to a fixed-price certificate regime. We propose to bring forward this legislation in early 2015.

[Lord Teverson]

My noble friend said rightly that, clearly, any Government need to be able to reduce intervention rates, if technology costs go down—and that needs to happen in terms of consumer value and government expenditure. But in this situation, we are talking only about those projects that have already had investment. The technology is fixed at the time when the investment took place, so I do not completely follow that argument.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I wanted to put the caveat of the Government seeking to respond having the ability, potentially, to respond. I agree with my noble friend that we may not expect it to happen, but we need to have that ability. My noble friend also mentioned uncertainty about state aid. We are working with the European Commission to ensure that our policies are compliant with state aid rules; we are confident of delivering EMR in 2014, and are helping industry to make early investment decisions. That might have been useful to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, in an earlier exchange.

These amendments deserve careful and further consideration, and I would certainly look with my noble friend the Minister to provide further information on these matters as the Bill progresses. I would also want to consider with my noble friend ways in which the purpose of Clause 46 could best be clarified and examine proportionate measures for reviewing support levels. It is on that basis that I very much hope my noble friend will be sufficiently encouraged. He and the noble Baroness are hitting some targets because this is an area on which the Government would like to reflect and consider further. On that basis, perhaps my noble friend will withdraw the amendment.

Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Teverson

Tuesday 16th July 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Worthington]

I thank the Minister for his encouraging response and for saying that he will take the amendment away. Today’s contributions have underlined the importance of CCS. Here we stand a chance of the UK really capitalising on our natural assets, in terms of both the storage capability that we have in the North Sea and our engineering prowess and experience in offshore matters. I am hopeful that we will see CCS projects coming forward in the UK very soon.

In response to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, about whether or not CCS has been demonstrated anywhere, I refer him to the helpful report that the Government produced on CCS. Every three years the Government are legally bound to report on CCS developments. This Bill will actually repeal that but my noble friend Lord Grantchester is suggesting that the report should stay. In that helpful report we learn that investment is indeed going on today in CCS in the UK, and it details two plants that are very close to being commissioned in the US, due to come on stream in 2014. I am hopeful that then, at least, we will be able to put the lie to the idea to that CCS cannot be commercialised. If the US shows the way, I am sure that many others will quickly follow, including China, which, as we know, is investing in a number of CCS projects and, I am sure, is racing to get there too.

We need to up our game and get on with it, and this amendment is designed to ensure that there are no unnecessary hurdles in the way. I am encouraged by the Minister’s response so I am happy to withdraw.

[Lord Teverson]

Before the noble Baroness does so, the Minister mentioned 2020 in terms of commercialisation. Given the current stage of the tendering process, when might we perhaps predict that the first full-scale CCS demonstration project will be operating? Do we have a date for that now? I think we are all concerned. We all want this technology to win. We are aware, as the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, has said, that it has taken a huge amount of time to get momentum, despite all the good will that there is for it.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I thank my noble friend. My understanding is that we may be working on this as early as 2015.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Teverson]

Indeed, although we have the situation, as I understand it—my noble friend will be closer to this—whereby the Government have to agree carbon budgets as they go along, this is contradictory to that same thing. I agree with him completely on that. I hope we can find a way to follow this amendment or to take out this very late date for a fixed emissions limit as high as that. In any other area of machinery or equipment, we would not accept this level of longevity for an emissions target.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for tabling this amendment, which has prompted a further debate on this additional aspect of EPS. During our debate so far, there has been a good deal of consensus among noble Lords on ensuring that the UK remains an attractive option for those looking to invest in a low-carbon electricity sector, and on the importance of gas generation. Noble Lords have also noted that the key to meeting that objective is providing investors with certainty about the regulatory environment that will govern their assets.

The Government’s gas generation strategy, published in December, set out our view that, along with low-carbon generation, we expect gas generation to continue to play a major role in our electricity mix over the coming decades as we decarbonise our electricity system, providing flexible back-up to increasing levels of intermittent generation. It also said that we are likely to need significant investment in new gas plants, in part to replace older coal, gas and nuclear plants as they are retired from the system, with much of that investment likely to be in the 2020s. It is therefore vital that we provide investors in new gas plants with the degree of certainty needed to ensure investment comes forward. Certainty over the EPS is part of that, and grandfathering the EPS limit until the end of 2044 will—

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

A gas power station produces emissions of 300 grams per kilowatt hour, coal 600 grams. Hence we have the target of 450 grams. So, if we are trying to encourage more gas, why must we have an emissions target of 150 grams per kilowatt hour more than the 300 that gas emits?

[Lord Teverson]

Perhaps there is something I misunderstand here in the argument. This is not just about grandfathering, as I read it, it is about new plants in 2044. It will still only be 450. To get investor certainty, yes, we need the grandfathering, because once you have built the plants, as with cars, you are stuck with that. I would accept that once you have built them you would expect them to go through their normal life before any major refurbishment; you would expect that to stay at the emissions limit applying when that plant was first operated. However, this includes new plants, as I understand it, right up to 2044. That is not related to investor certainty, because plants at the moment would have grandfathering rights, but if we moved this date later on we could have different rules, and that would not affect investor certainty.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I thank noble Lords for their interventions. I think all will be revealed in due course.

I want to return to the matter of investors and business, because certainty over the EPS is part of that. The grandfathering of the EPS limit until the end of 2044 will, we believe, give investors in new gas plants certainty that the operation of their assets will not be constrained by the EPS for a period considered sufficient to make a return on their investment.

I am particularly mindful of what my noble friend Lord Deben said about business. It is important to note that business has made it clear that these grandfathering provisions are essential if the EPS is not to deter or increase the cost of investment in new gas plants.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

As I say, I am quoting the CBI specifically on this matter, and it cites the year 2045. Although I understand what my noble friend is saying, I cannot renege on the fact that the CBI is specifically citing that particular year in the quote that I wanted to mention to the Committee.

There has also been a query, although we are going to discuss the 300 grams in further amendments, about the 450 grams. That figure represents a significant reduction in the emissions of a new coal plant. This level builds on and supports the planning requirement for any new coal plant to be equipped with CCS while being above the level of carbon emissions for a new gas plant. The 450-gram limit also provides some flexibility for CCS projects to help manage the uncertainties associated with first-of-kind technology. As I say, though, we will have a separate debate on this matter with the amendment of the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth.

If I may continue, I say to noble Lords who may be concerned that we are locking in high levels of unabated gas generation well into the future, while grandfathering will give investor certainty over the regulatory regime under which their assets will operate in relation to EPS, it does not permit a right to emit. This is because as levels of low-carbon generation increase, with its use effectively prioritised due to its low generation cost, unabated gas generation will increasingly be displaced. The role of gas will therefore be to balance an energy system that includes greater amounts of inflexible and intermittent generation. Analysis for our gas generation strategy shows average overall load factors for gas plants at around 27% in 2030, based on achieving 100-grams-per-kilowatt-hour grid average emissions intensity.

The role of government is to strike a balance between the three objectives of energy policy: to decarbonise our electricity system, to maintain security of energy supply to the country and to keep costs to consumers to a minimum. I understand that the intention behind this amendment is to provide greater certainty for decarbonisation but, for the reasons I have set out, I believe that shortening the grandfathering period of the EPS would introduce uncertainty and risk to the new gas plants we will need to build up to 2030, and that the better way to balance these three objectives is through the approach that we are taking in the Bill.

I will study the references that have been made during this short debate, particularly my exchanges with my noble friend Lord Deben. As this is a technical matter, it would probably be better if I wrote to him and other noble Lords on this. I appreciate that the noble Baroness will be disappointed by my reply but I hope she understands that the Government cannot support her proposed approach because of the three objectives that we need to balance. On that basis, I hope that she will withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Teverson]

I know that I am stretching the patience of my noble friend but I want to get this clear in my mind. Does the legislation mean that in 2043 I can build a completely new gas plant as long as it emits under 450 grams per kilowatt hour, and operate it thereafter?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My understanding is that the answer to that is yes.