Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Lord Goodman of Wycombe and Baroness Fox of Buckley

Committee stage
Tuesday 27th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, as always, the rational logic of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has been very helpful in untangling this issue. She has summed up some of my concerns and things that I am not sure about.

The noble Baroness, Lady Foster, has brilliantly articulated her worries about the glorification of terrorism and how it normalises terrorism into everyday life. I think that is valid. She notes that this is based on little knowledge, and little knowledge can be very dangerous. Whatever one thinks about Northern Ireland —and I assure noble Lords that at this end we do not all agree—it was a bloody conflict, and it is not to be treated lightly. Those who simply reduce it to slogans in the way that was described do not know what they are talking about.

In support of the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, my concern is that when we get proscription legislation wrong, we also rob the notion of terrorism of its power to shock, of its content, and the danger is that we relativise it and trivialise it. I think a huge amount of damage has been done by putting Palestine Action into the same category as Hamas or ISIS. Even though Palestine Action, as has been described, is an obnoxious or objectionable organisation and should be held to account under the law when it uses criminal damage, I do not think it is a terrorist organisation. Putting those self-indulgent OAP protesters or students into the same camp as Hizb ut-Tahrir calling for jihad or those hate preachers I quoted earlier, for example, seems misplaced. It turns what I consider to be numpty protesters into some sort of heroes in their own mind, and it has captured the imagination.

If you go to universities, you now find that people think that anyone who supports Palestine Action is a free speech warrior who we should all get up and support. They do not understand why I, as a free-speecher, am not supporting it. The problem is that they now all think that terrorism is sitting on a road and saying, “I support Palestine Action”. If only terrorism were sitting on a road and shouting, “I support Palestine Action” or wearing a badge. That is not the content of terrorism, and there is a lack of knowledge about what terrorism is. If people think those people are terrorists, we sell young generations short by them not understanding what we are up against and what the problems are. Proscribing organisations, which is a very important weapon to use in a particular way, is one thing; treating those who simply are vocal in their support of that organisation, as has happened with Palestine Action, can just mean that we conflate slogans and words with terrorist actions or violent actions and empty them of any horror.

The difficulty is that I am torn. When I hear Bob Vylan, Kneecap or those student groups shouting “Internationalise the intifada” or strutting their stuff and cosplaying their support for barbarism, it is sickening and I want something to be done. Listening to the moving speech by the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, you can see that that is what you might want to tackle. It is just that I do not think proscribing Palestine Action did that, and we are now paying the cost for having inappropriately used proscription of an organisation to devalue what we mean by terrorism.

If we no longer have young people in this country who have lived experience of terrorism—sadly, young Iranians do, for example, so let us not concentrate entirely on ourselves—they think going on a demo outside a prison fighting for the hunger strikers inside is as bad as it gets. They do not get it, but I do not think we have helped them get it either, which is why I am nervous about saying that glorification of terrorism in that context should be against the law, because we have to be very careful about what we are making illegal.

[Lord Goodman of Wycombe (Con)]

My Lords, I wish to speak briefly in support of the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Foster, which I signed. I do so, paradoxically, as someone who has written in the Daily Telegraph, of all places, against the proscription of Palestine Action. My argument was that there is a difference—this is to address the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner—between the intent of the protesters and the nature of the organisation.

There must be some common-sense way of differentiating between a violent organisation such as Palestine Action and Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, al-Qaeda and so on. In fact, a way has been proposed, because the noble Lord, Lord Walney, produced a whole report for the last Government suggesting that organisations such as Palestine Action be subject to certain sorts of orders that would separate them out. But that raises the question: what about Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, the IRA and so on?

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Goodman of Wycombe and Baroness Fox of Buckley

Committee stage
Friday 23rd January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Birt, to reflect on the equality implications of this suggestion of a special treatment service for those seeking assisted death. Following on from the previous contribution from the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, it seems to me that everybody would want, if they are a patient or for their loved ones, a personal, state-funded navigator. But maybe for care, those people on trolleys, waiting for operations, or trying to find their way into the care system would all say, “Can we all have one?” If we do not afford every patient in the country a personal navigator, is that not an unequal access to services? It seems a two-tier system, and one that I think the public would not approve of.

On another issue, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Birt, to detail the workforce demands that this service would require from the NHS, following on from the excellent contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Stevens. I note that the assisted dying help service—which, by the way, would be awarded significant regulatory powers by these amendments that would not be subject to approval by Parliament—would have the power to set training and qualifications for practitioners. That seems like a blank cheque. I would like to know what the skill set of a navigator would be and who decides that. In all seriousness, this whole new shadow service being set up, with its own qualification system and recruitment, is a bit worrying. We are not sure who they are going to be.

My final query is that I know that a lot of the Bill’s supporters are frustrated and have raised problems with some of the amendments that have been tabled on the basis that they would somehow create bureaucratic, preventive barriers to people who genuinely want to afford themselves an assisted dying service. In other words, there is an attempt to overengineer the process. Therefore, I commend the noble Lord, Lord Birt, on this creative attempt at cutting red tape. However, on these amendments, we all know that mandated timelines can mean shortcuts that could make the process unsafe. Could he comment on that?

Speed and process-driven decision-making are risky in any instance but, where careful assistance and safeguarding are contested, it seems rather dangerous that panels would have to decide within two days of referral, even sitting over the weekend or bank holidays to make decisions. By the way, I think we should apply that to everyone in the NHS: they should do operations and doctors’ surgeries should be open over weekends and bank holidays. I wish the courts would sit over bank holidays and weekends, because then we would not have to get rid of jury trials, allegedly. That would mean that a referral on a Friday evening would have to be decided by a Monday. How would a panel have time to investigate and read everything thoroughly? Surely it would just end up skimming things.

I also really worry about the reflection period being cut to 24 hours, when experts warn that initial depression after diagnosis, which is completely understandable, might well be temporary, treatable and certainly remedial. It could last a few weeks but then be replaced with a more positive attitude. In fact, the CEO of Mind told the Lords Select Committee that they have

“gone to the brink, have come back and have then been able to say three or six months later, ‘I’m so glad that that did not happen’”.

All I am saying is that saying, “Oh we’re being really efficient; we’re going to make sure that your reflection is cut to 24 hours so that you can get what you want”, might well mean that you do not get what you would have wanted if you had had a bit longer to reflect.

[Lord Goodman of Wycombe (Con)]

My Lords, there is an unreality about this debate that gives rise to a question for the sponsor of the Bill and the Minister. The unreality is this: the noble Lord, Lord Birt, has made the case for his amendments, and my noble friend Lord Harper and others have made the case against them, but there is hung on this whole debate an assumption that the NHS will deliver assisted dying. I remind the Committee that there is no guarantee of that in the Bill.

If noble Lords would kindly turn to Clause 41(4), they will see that the only reference to the National Health Service is:

“Regulations under this section may for example provide that specified references in the National Health Service Act 2006 to the health service continued”,


et cetera. That is the only reference to the NHS in the Bill. We do not know whether the NHS will or will not deliver assisted dying services. It is an extraordinary weakness in the Bill.