Business and Planning Bill

Lord Hayward Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 6th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, I should declare that for 10 years I was the chief executive of the Beer & Pub Association, so I have had some experience in dealing with the Licensing Act 2003, when many of the points raised today were raised then. I will just touch on one or two points made previously and will come back to Soho in a second. Bournemouth, Broad- stairs, the assaults on police in parts of London and Manchester, et cetera, happened before pubs were reopened, so there are other factors at play. We have to address those as well as the issues genuinely raised today.

I share the concern of the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, about clarity, but it is clearly difficult to get it right when you are dealing with so many varieties of hospitality industry. I am pleased with some of the variations from one sector to another made recently in guidance—for example, in the use of toilet facilities and the like. As the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, said, there are clearly still inherent contradictions that have to be addressed, but it is worth noting that the Government are making steps along that route.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, made reference to the arcane or archaic—I am using my words, not hers—Licensing Act. In fact, the Licensing Act was passed in 2003 and local authorities have policies between seven and 41 pages long that give guidance from which pubs, pub companies and restaurant companies need to operate.

However, I have serious sympathy for the problems relating to the blind, the partially sighted, the physically disabled who need wheelchairs, and the like. Again, I declare an interest in that I suffer from an MS-related illness and on Friday I was partially sighted for a period. I said earlier that we should look at what happened before licensed premises were open. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, knows Urlwin Street and Grosvenor Terrace only too well; they are roads close to where he grew up. It is not just the licensed industry that causes these problems. You cannot get a wheelchair down either of those streets, because of the street furniture placed there by the local council. So let us not address all the problems to at the hospitality industry. We need to be honest enough to look more widely.

I will comment on one or two aspects when we debate the Bill next week, but I draw Members’ attention to Clause 4, headed “Duration”. We are talking about introducing not rights that will last for a long period but powers for a specific period in these circumstances for the coronavirus crisis.

I have two small issues—or perhaps not so small. One is TENs, which we will return to and is a matter of intense detail and concern for small brewers. The other is the definition of “groups” in relation to hostels and the hospitality industry. People are allowed to go as two groups, but the definition we have in this country does not apply anywhere else in Europe. If four people turn up in a car or come by train together, they have travelled together. Therefore, they ought to be able to stay in a hostel. I will address these issues in greater detail when we debate the Bill, but I hope that I have raised a few small points for the Government to consider.

Business and Planning Bill

Lord Hayward Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 13th July 2020 Lords Chamber

As I am sure all noble Lords do, I have huge faith in small business owners, but I also want owners of bigger businesses to recognise their responsibilities and that the managers of their branches and local premises are local leaders in their area too. Big businesses should ensure that their local managers understand their responsibilities and their status in their local communities.

[Lord Hayward (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I first thank the noble Earl for his letter, which he sent in response to a number of the comments I made on Second Reading. I greatly appreciate the consideration that both he and the officials have given to the variety of points I made at the time.

I pick up on the response the Minister gave on one particular matter in the last group of amendments. I considered putting in to speak on both these groups but decided to concentrate on just one. On the question of marking out, possibly by some form of barrier, I acknowledge that you could create a real difficulty in blocking pavements by putting in another barrier, but in this day and age when you can rope off sections, the vast majority of establishments would not take up a large area by doing so. I ask the Minister not to mandate a requirement, but to encourage all restaurants to give serious consideration to some form of identification or demarcation of an area.

On these amendments and the comments by my noble friend Lord Balfe and the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, we are talking here about restaurants and events in the summer. I support her in her observations on the comments made on the radio yesterday about Soho; it was a marked change. On an earlier group, the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, made the comment that, as far she could assess, the problems in Richmond in most cases arose not specifically from the pubs or restaurants, but from off-sales and people wandering around areas with drink they had bought in an off-licence rather than a restaurant.

On the timescales involved, I have sympathy with the issue of seven to 14 days, particularly at this time of year, and do not necessarily believe that it would be unfair on an applicant. We are dealing with the summer. It is important that we make progress because, after all is said and done, summer in Britain does not last very long. If we delay unduly, the restaurants will not get the benefit, but it is difficult for a council and residents to register concerns.

Having said that, I have a point in relation to what the noble Lord, Lord Harris, said. I have in front of me a letter from one of the central London councils. It is a parking offence and is not mine but my lodger’s. It was sent out by the council and says it starts counting from the day it was sent; I think that is standard procedure for notices. My lodger was told he had to make the payment within the set days. Although I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Harris, about some matters, what is relevant here is that at this time of year it is difficult for residents and councils to deal with matters if an application goes to one or two people who happen to be on holiday. As my noble friend Lord Lucas said, it may involve different local authorities and there may need to be cross-consultation.

Unless there is a strong case for it to be seven days, I certainly support the idea that there should be 14 days of consultation rather than seven. Having said that, as I understand it, many of the obligations imposed as a result of these amendments are already imposed on applicants for such licences and the local authorities giving consideration to them. I am willing to be corrected on that, either by another supporter of the amendments or by the Minister.

[Lord Naseby [V]]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Noakes should have been listened to. I say again that I lived opposite a pub; I knew the publican. I knew the local councillor for the ward in Islington. In my own ward, up in Highview, I knew where the pubs were. I cannot believe that in this day and age and at this point in time, the local councillors do not know which of their pubs are considering making use of this legislation. I am certain they do. Furthermore, I suspect all the local residents know exactly which pubs are likely to want to do this pavement extension business, so I say to my noble friends: we need to get on with it.

I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey. I remember the days when I was the leader of the London Borough of Islington and say that, if anything was stretched out, it was when we were discussing joint issues with Haringey—but that was a long time ago. Seven days is pretty reasonable at this point in time. I say to your Lordships: let us get on with it.