Mr Mike Veale

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 18th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I think it is one and the same thing, in the sense that the Met Police will have to show obvious signs of improvement before the engage process, as the Home Secretary described it, is removed.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will know that police and crime commissioners were established as elected postholders to increase accountability of the police forces to the local community. In the light of experience, does she think that has worked out well? If not, is it not time to put them to bed?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I think there are some excellent examples of PCCs up and down the country, including the noble Lord, Lord Bach—Parliament’s only PCC and a very good one indeed. Should the PCC not perform well at his or her job, they can be removed at the ballot box.

Passport and Visa Measures

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 9th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to review their decision not to exempt young people from European Union member states on school trips to the United Kingdom from the new passport and visa measures due to come into force on 1 October.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, EU, EEA and Swiss students are now subject to the same rules as students from the rest of the world. They may come under the visitor route or as a student, but from 1 October they will require a passport like everyone else and we do not plan to review this decision.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, what a depressing advert for global Britain. Thousands of schoolchildren from Europe will not now be visiting our country since they will no longer be able to use an EU or EEA ID card. There is no doubt that the requirement for passports and, in some cases, visas, will put such trips beyond the capacity of many schools. It is short-sighted, petty and mean-spirited, and it means that, without these cultural exchanges with young people in Europe, we will not have the long-term economic and cultural links we have enjoyed for so long. The Minister says it will not be reconsidered; I ask her to reconsider this really outrageous decision.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I reiterate that we will not be reconsidering, but I do not agree with that assertion that thousands of children will not be visiting. What about the children from the rest of the world who visit this country? Are they in a different category? We are treating everybody in exactly the same way. Of course, there is always the option to get collective passports for groups of children issued under the 1961 Council of Europe treaty.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Report stage
Wednesday 17th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I warmly thank my noble friend Lady Kennedy and the Minister for her response. Can the Minister confirm that the Nottinghamshire Police official definition is the following:

“Incidents against women that are motivated by an attitude of a man towards a woman and includes behaviour targeted towards a woman by men simply because they are a woman”?


I take it that there is no question of introducing the sex or gender terminology used in this amendment, which is different from the amendment moved in Committee, and has certainly not been endorsed by the Law Commission.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]]

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, is absolutely correct about what Nottinghamshire Police records. I cannot confirm what the conclusion will ultimately be, but I have said that I will consult.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Report stage
Wednesday 10th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I want to ask the Minister a couple of quick questions. The first relates to the additional money she mentioned today and in Committee that is going to local authorities to help to implement the legislation. Given what the NAO has said this morning, is she confident that local authorities will actually spend the money in the areas in which the Government wish them to? Secondly, on the question put by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, about the jeopardy that women-only spaces in refuges are coming under because of local authority commissioning policies, will the Minister remind those authorities of the need to implement fully the Equality Act 2010 and not try to reinterpret it?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I will answer the last question first. The Equality Act 2010 is of the utmost importance here. Whether or not I actually remind every local authority of its obligations under that Act, they have statutory duties, and under- pinning the work of every single local state body is the Equality Act.

Will local authorities necessarily spend the additional money on what they have been tasked with spending it on? It is being given to them in conjunction with a duty. I know, because of what she has said, that both the domestic abuse commissioner and the local boards will be scrutinising the spending and commissioning of those services locally.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Committee stage & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 10th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I want to assure the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, that he is not alone. I support the powerful speeches made by my noble friends Lady Gale and Lady Wilcox, without detracting in any way from what the noble Lord had to say.

I want to raise with the Minister the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, made about the Government’s desire for this to be a gender-neutral Bill. The Minister spoke on this very carefully and said within the forthcoming strategy there would be gender-specific elements. The question I want to put back to her is: if it is okay to have gender-specific elements in a strategy, why on earth can that not be covered in the legislation?

This is prompted by the publication of the Ministerial and other Maternity Allowances Bill that is being debated in the Commons tomorrow. That Bill excludes the words “women” or “mothers”, instead referring to a “person” who is pregnant and a “person” who

“has given birth to a child.”

My question to the Minister is about whether the Government have decided not to use the term “woman” in future legislation. Does she share my concern that there is a risk of delegitimising specific concerns about women, and that women’s hard-won rights over the past six decades are in danger of dissipation as a result?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I think what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has just said could be the subject of a Question for Short Debate or even quite a long debate in your Lordships’ House, so complex is what he has just said so simply. By making reference to gender in the guidance but also having a gender-neutral definition, we recognise two things: first, that domestic abuse is mainly perpetrated against women, but taking into account that men, such the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, who outlined his story so eloquently, can also be victims of domestic abuse. I said at the beginning of my speech that our aim is to protect and support all victims of domestic abuse, so I hope that what the Government have done, notwithstanding the legislation in the Commons, has struck that balance right.

Health Measures at UK Borders

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 4th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

That was exciting, my Lords. Can the Minister say what the delay is in putting the hotel quarantines together? The Government have known about the problem of the variant in South Africa for weeks—since well before Christmas. They have been advised by SAGE and NERVTAG about the need to take action, yet this morning we heard from the chief executive of the Best Western hotel chain, which has global experience of running these operations, that there has been virtually no detailed discussion with that company—or, I assume, with other companies. What on earth is the delay?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, as I have said, this is a DHSC lead matter, but that does not mean that I will try to evade answering the question. I imagine that some of the procurement activity that is taking place—making those hotels Covid secure—is a challenge. I can say, however, that the Government are working as hard as we can to get these hotels up and running as quickly as possible.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 1st February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I have listened very carefully to the Minister’s response, particularly on Amendment 176, for which I thank her. None the less, does she not accept that favouring accommodation-based services, as set out in Part 4, is bound to impact on local authorities’ spending decisions and make them move funding towards accommodation-based services at the expense of community-based services? How will the Government ensure that a proportion of the additional £125 million goes to community services? Will it not be possible for us to give Ministers regulation-making powers to bring in a duty on community services after the mapping exercise has been completed? That would at least give us some way to ensure that the Government have statutory provision in the light of the mapping exercise.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, the Part 4 duty in the Bill does not preclude the provision of community-based services. I understand what the noble Lord is saying: because local authorities have the duty to provide accommodation-based services, that means they will not provide community-based services. However, I do not think it does. There is a recognition that we need to explore this further, hence we have committed the domestic abuse commissioner to doing this mapping exercise. That work clearly needs to be explored, but it is very hard to make a bid to the Treasury without knowing exactly where the gaps lie. That is not to say there are no gaps—I am sure there are— but we are just not clear on what the actual ask of the Treasury will be.

As to whether we can ensure that some of the money given to local authorities goes to community-based services, local authorities clearly know the needs of their area, and I hope that they would allocate the money accordingly.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 27th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I think it is yes to everything. The whole context has to be taken into account when issuing both a DAPN and a DAPO.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, this has been an excellent debate. I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken and to the Minister for her sympathetic response.

I think we are all seeking the same thing. As the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia said, one cannot underestimate the importance of data in measuring crime, monitoring police actions and focusing on outcomes. That is why the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, to whom I am very grateful, emphasised the importance of the use of data and new methods of technology in helping to address what I think we all agree—this is part of the reason for the Bill today—has been the very patchy response to domestic abuse that we have seen in previous years. The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, spoke very wisely about the better management and oversight of IT solutions and the contribution that they can make.

I listened with great care to the reservations of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. As she said, what sometimes sounds like common sense could be fatalistic and could undermine liberties. One would be unwise to dismiss that out of hand. As with many things, there are balances here: a balance of risks and a balance of opportunities. The issue for me is that the current methods of prediction are falling short and, from the LSE research, it looks as though we could find a way to get the predictive rate up. In view of the failures in relation to domestic abuse, this is a very important consideration indeed.

I was interested to hear my noble friend Lord Brooke talk about tagging. He is a real expert on the impact of alcohol on domestic abuse and more generally. I was grateful for his support, as I am to my noble friend Lord McConnell. He made some important remarks about being cautious over the use of data but acknowledged that my amendments themselves are not cavalier and, in a sense, are an encouragement to enable better practice in this area.

I was very touched by the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, who spoke very sensitively about his own experience and how we might learn from it. He was of course right to reflect on funding issues and the impact they have had on the police in using technology to support victims and tackle domestic abuse as a whole. My noble friend Lord Kennedy thought this was being proposed as a common-sense solution, and I very much agree with him.

The Minister was sympathetic, and I am grateful to her for that. She talked about the work that her department is doing with the College of Policing on risk assessment. It might be that she could encourage the college to talk to the LSE about its work to see whether that could inform further developments in future.

On Amendment 62, she has made it clear that the use of the phrase “other relevant information” essentially covers the point that I have raised, and interventions by my noble friends Lord Ponsonby and Lord Kennedy have confirmed that.

This has been a very good debate, and I hope it has been a constructive contribution to encouraging police forces to use data more effectively. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Historic Sexual Offences: Investigations

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 4th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend will know that the guidance on this states that the police will not name those arrested or suspected of a crime save in exceptional circumstances where there is a legitimate policing purpose to do so, such as a threat to life, the prevention or detection of crime, or when police have made a public warning about a wanted individual. However, my noble friend will also appreciate that, in the case of Jimmy Savile, for example, had people not come forward, those victims’ voices would never have been heard.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness consider that police forces have any insight into the impact of their behaviour? I have in mind particularly Wiltshire Police in the case of Ted Heath. So far, one has faced a stone wall and hardly received a decent apology for the way in which they pursued a ridiculous case.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, in this House we have talked about several cases such as the one that the noble Lord has referred to. It is right that lessons are learned from these things and that the IOPC steps in, and it is also right that these matters can be pursued through the courts.

Immigration: Points-based System

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 25th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is correct to raise this. We have to be careful of the unintended consequences of any new system. In my response to the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, I said that there would be regular reviews and advice to the Government from the MAC. As with any new system, it will be under regular review. At the heart of what the Government want to do is taking control of our borders and immigration system.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right to suggest that the Government’s policy will not hold. It will certainly not hold in the health and social care sector; it is only a question of when they will be forced to reverse their policy. Does the Minister acknowledge that health and social care has relied on migration ever since it started? The 50,000 nurse target that the Government are committed to depends on thousands of nurses coming to this country. I accept that they can come under this new policy, but what about the care sector? According to the Minister yesterday, in 2018 the ludicrous MAC said that the problems of the care sector should be solved by the sector itself investing in,

“making jobs in social care worthwhile”.—[Official Report, 24/2/20; col. 9.]

Have noble Lords ever heard such nonsense? The care sector is collapsing. There is no resource there—no funding for training and recruitment. The Government are saying that they are prepared to see the whole sector collapse as a result of this ludicrous policy. It is only a question of time before the Minister comes back to tell the House that she will reverse this policy; she will have to.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am not sure whether or not the noble Lord is agreeing that we should allow more migrant workers in health and social care. He will know that we have had a 150% increase in migration from non-EU countries to health and social care. I am well aware that we have relied on migration for health and social care for many years. It is the reason I am in this country; both my parents are migrant doctors. We are lucky indeed to have them, generally, in this country. I agree with the noble Lord that we have to have the funding to underpin making extra places for doctors and nurses in this country. The Government have announced a huge increase in funding for the healthcare sector. It has always been our intention that, when we leave the EU, EU and non-EU migrants will be treated exactly the same. The competition will be there to get the best and brightest people, from all parts of the world, for our NHS.

Immigration: Refugee Doctors

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 24th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, our policy on that has not changed, but these things are constantly under review. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary is right that, if someone is seeking asylum but not yet legally resident here, they should not be in a position to be able to work.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister makes great play of the fact that doctors are highly skilled; of course they are. But what about care workers? Why is the classification used by the Home Office going to deny us thousands of people coming from other countries to work in our care system? This is complete madness.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is fair to recognise that the problems in the care system are not fixable only through immigration. The MAC recognised in 2018 that the sector needs to invest in making jobs in social care worthwhile careers rather than be propped up with immigrant labour.

County Lines Drugs Gangs

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 8th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am glad that the noble Lord has raised this issue. It is not just something that we are acutely aware of—as he and I will know from our local government days, it is long overdue for attention. He may also know that the Government commissioned my honourable friend Ed Timpson MP, who I am delighted to say is back in the other place, to undertake a review of alternative provision so that the quality of provision can be as good and effective—perhaps more so—as in a mainstream school, because these children need extra attention. To date there has been a £4 million investment in an innovation fund for alternative provision, and I am sure that the House will be kept updated on its success.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, can the noble Baroness comment on youth services funding? She mentioned family hubs, but since 2010 there has been a 69% reduction in the funding of youth services by local authorities. This must have had a negative impact on the lives of many young people. Will the Government now start to reverse that?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The Government have already made quite a few inroads, particularly for vulnerable children. I have just mentioned the £165 million-worth of funding for troubled families for the next year. We have invested £3.6 million in the National County Lines Coordination Centre, which is absolutely essential for safeguarding young people who get into that sort of activity. Further, the £200 million youth endowment fund will be delivered over 10 years, in addition to the £22 million of the early intervention youth fund that is already funding 10 projects. But one of the most important aspects of funding is that into which we put into our trusted relationships fund. These children do not trust anyone, so it is very important that they are able to build up trust with those who are seeking to protect them.

Policing: Priorities

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 15th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of whether police forces have established effective priorities for fighting crime.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, police and crime commissioners are directly elected to set the policing priorities for their local areas and hold their chief constable to account. They must also have regard to national policing priorities and the strategic policing requirement. Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services periodically reports on police effectiveness. In its most recent effectiveness inspection report, the majority of forces were graded good.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

While I am grateful to the Minister, I wonder what she made of the comments of the chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council, Sara Thornton, in calling on police forces to refocus their priorities on what she described as “core policing”. Does the Minister accept that that highlights the appalling state that we have reached? Since 2010, there has been a 15% real-term, full-time equivalent reduction in the number of her police officers. Many crimes now go unrecorded and undealt with. The figures since 2015 show that there has been a 26% reduction in the number of charges or summons brought for recorded crime, resulting in 153,000 fewer criminals being brought to justice. What is the Government’s response to the appalling state that we have reached?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think that I have stood at this Dispatch Box before and said that it is up to local police forces to set priorities for their local areas, because they will differ from area to area. It is important to note—I have said this before as well—that both the Home Secretary and the Policing Minister recognise the increasing calls on police time and the different demands facing them, particularly in light of events in the past year. There is an additional point about how the police operate. It will not be any surprise to the noble Lord that some police forces are far more effective than others, and it is important to think of ways in which they could collaborate, make better use of technology and be more efficient as time goes on.

Police and Crime Commissioners

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 15th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the concerns raised by the National Police Chiefs’ Council about Police and Crime Commissioners and their impact on applications for Chief Constable positions.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, we are committed to ensuring that policing continues to attract the leaders that it needs for the future. The 2015 College of Policing Leadership Review set the foundation, and we have built on this by funding a leadership hub. Chiefs, PCCs and the college are rising to this challenge.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer, but she will be aware that there is increasing concern about the rapid turnover of chief constables, particularly women. It seems to be a problem, too, that new appointments are often made from a shortlist of one—often, the deputy chief constable. She will be aware that Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary has expressed concern that bright officers are not applying for these posts because they think police commissioners have already made up their minds. Will she use the powers that she has to determine that any appointment must be made from a strong shortlist, and that no one should become a chief constable unless they have also undertaken a senior post with another force, rather than simply being promoted from the inside?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I certainly recognise the point that the noble Lord makes about the feeling that people are promoted from the inside and, therefore, that perhaps officers do not apply from other forces. On female turnover, we should welcome the fact that we have a female commissioner of the Met police, which is fantastic news. The chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council is also a woman, and the director-general of the NCA is also female. However, I understand the noble Lord’s point. I also think that chiefs themselves have a role to play in attracting and encouraging talent coming up through the pipeline. The College of Policing published a code of ethics, guidance on flexible working and guidance on the use of positive action to increase the recruitment and retention of underrepresented groups, including females.

Immigration: International Students

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 26th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. Earlier this year, the Royal Statistical Society agreed with that approach and said that,

“we believe it is imperative for due attention to be paid to the international definitions of migration, which lead to the inclusion of students in the figures”.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not a fact that the combination of Home Office measures has had a dampening impact on overseas recruitment and we are losing market share? Coming back to the issue of statistics, the Minister’s own department’s official statistics in August last year showed that 95% of international students coming from outside the EU were fully accounted for, either by leaving to go back home or by receiving an extension of their leave to be here because they are extending their studies. What is the problem with the Home Office in coming to a sensible resolution of this?

Immigration and Nationality (Fees) (Amendment) Order 2018

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 27th February 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for setting out the reasons behind this order and for the clarification she gave in her opening remarks. I too was fascinated by the level of fee charged changing from an overall maximum fee of £10,500 to a fee of £2,600 per hour. Some of us have occasionally done per diem work—I suppose we are not unused to it now—but our eyes can only water at the thought of such an hourly rate. It would be good to know where the justification comes from.

I also add to a point made by the noble Lord, which is that essentially a commercial provider is going to do the work. Although the Home Office will retain full oversight and jurisdiction, the relevant fee will relate to the cost associated with the commercial partner travelling to the location of choice as requested by the applicant. The mind boggles. Can they go anywhere? Without detracting from the quality of the people who will be applying for this service, it makes one wonder what exactly the commercial provider is there to do. Is this rate seriously based on the cost of that commercial provider? Does it build in a profit? It must. I must say that the Explanatory Memorandum begs more questions than it answers on those details.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Paddick, who both asked questions about the rather lucrative £2,600 hourly rate. I absolutely understand why the noble Lords asked that question. It is not the actual fee; it is the maximum. The actual fee will be set in regulations later this year, but it is important to understand what the amount is modelled on. It is modelled on existing costs and location of customers using the current service. The average time is two hours and for security reasons it requires two members of staff actually to do the work. It is a maximum amount and that needs to be borne in mind in the context of what noble Lords are asking.

As regards the organisations working with vulnerable people suggesting that the destitution assessment applied to those who make applications on the basis of private and family life is too stringent, our policy states that a fee waiver will be granted to applicants who demonstrate with evidence that they are destitute. That may well bring in the point that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, made. The onus is on the applicant to demonstrate by way of evidence, which I am sure that a refugee or asylum seeker could, that they meet the terms of the fee waiver policy. It is open to such individuals to re-apply for a fee waiver on the evidence that supports their request.

The question about the supplier ensuring that they give value for money and account strictly for the time taken in each case was a very valid one. The Home Office’s chosen commercial provider will be required to demonstrate a clear and transparent method of calculation of the service cost, based on the applicant’s location, to deliver an on-demand service. This is an on-demand and premium service to a customer at a location of their choice. The contractual clauses will require that partner to undertake open book accounting to allow visibility of costs and charges for services provided to customers, which in turn will be reviewed by robust commercial oversight. I hope that that answers the noble Lord’s two very simple questions.

Alcohol

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 6th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I hope that I outlined clearly that there has not been a change of mind. There was a pause rather than a retraction in the Government’s thinking back in 2013, given the case of the Scotch Whisky Association and the Scottish Government. We will keep the issue under review and review the policy in the light of that case.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not time for a bit of honesty here? Over the last few years Minister after Minister has got up and given one reason after another why we cannot introduce this provision. The Government have now had the PHE report. Why do they not simply say, “We are not going ahead with it”, rather than prevaricating in the way that they have?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Government are not saying they are not going ahead with it because that is not the situation. We are keeping the issue under review in the light of what happens in Scotland.

West Midlands Combined Authority Order 2016

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 6th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the draft order that we are considering this afternoon, if approved, will create a combined authority for the West Midlands. It will also dissolve the West Midlands Integrated Transport Authority and Passenger Transport Executive, and transfer their functions to the newly established combined authority. This order is made pursuant to the provisions of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009, as amended by the Cities and Local Government Devolution Act 2016.

The seven constituent councils of Birmingham, Coventry, Dudley, Sandwell, Solihull, Walsall and Wolverhampton have led a truly local, bottom-up process to produce a proposal for the establishment of this combined authority. They believe that this governance model is the most appropriate way for the West Midlands to achieve stronger, more efficient and more effective delivery of economic development, regeneration and transport responsibilities. If this order receives parliamentary approval, the West Midlands Combined Authority will be the second combined authority established since the amendments to the 2009 Act by the 2016 Act, and the seventh established in the last five years.

It is important to note that, while establishing this combined authority in no sense commits the councils concerned, or indeed the Government, to creating a mayor for the area or devolving powers to the area, the councils and the Government intend to use this combined authority as the foundation for implementing the devolution deal that we have agreed with the West Midlands.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister said that the councils in the West Midlands have signed up to the issue of having an elected mayor. I remind her that, when we had a referendum in the West Midlands, we decisively voted against having mayors. There is no sign-up at all to having a mayor—it is just that her department has forced the West Midlands authorities to accept it because they would not get the powers unless they were given a mayor.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

These matters are truly local matters, and if the local authorities approach government with their wishes, the Government will consider them. We went through that during the passage of the Cities and Local Government Devolution Act; no authority will be made to do anything that it does not wish to do.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Is the Minister saying that the powers that will be given to the West Midlands Combined Authority as set out in this order, and more in the future, will be available if the local authorities intimated that they would not have a combined mayor?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the order we are dealing with today has no bearing on whether those local authorities will have a mayor. This order is about creating a combined authority. I want to make that absolutely clear to all noble Lords. This is about creating a combined authority; it is not about creating a mayoral combined authority.

In its report, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee questioned the relationship between the combined authority we are considering today and future developments, such as establishing a mayor for the area. I shall say a little more about this later, but now I would like to address in more detail the draft order before the House this afternoon, which is the order to create a combined authority.

This order provides for the combined authority to assume responsibility for economic development, regeneration and transport across the West Midlands. As I have said, the West Midlands Integrated Transport Authority and the West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive will be dissolved and their transport functions transferred to the West Midlands Combined Authority. This order will enable the seven councils and their partners—including the three local enterprise partnerships in the area: Black Country LEP, Coventry and Warwickshire LEP and Greater Birmingham & Solihull LEP; and the five non-constituent members: Cannock Chase, Nuneaton and Bedworth, Redditch, Tamworth, and Telford and Wrekin—to work together more effectively and efficiently to promote economic growth, secure investment and create jobs.

In laying the draft of this order we have followed the statutory process specified in the 2009 Act as amended by the 2016 Act. A key feature of this is that there is a triple lock. Establishing a combined authority can happen only if the councils concerned consent, the Government agree and this House and the other place approve the necessary secondary legislation. That is absolutely the case here. The seven constituent councils have consented to this order, the Government have agreed the draft of the order, and we are seeking Parliament’s approval before making the order which will establish the combined authority on 10 June.

We have considered the particular circumstances of this proposal for a combined authority, as the law requires. We have concluded that the statutory conditions are met. First, we are satisfied that the making of this order is likely to improve the exercise of statutory functions in the area to which it relates. We also consider it would be appropriate to establish this combined authority, having regard, as the 2009 Act requires, to the need to reflect the identities and interests of local communities and to secure effective and convenient local government. Finally, we have considered the public consultation carried out by the constituent councils of the West Midlands on the proposals to form this combined authority and consider that no further consultation is needed.

I recognise that in its report the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee raised certain issues about consultation. I have to tell the House that we do not share the committee’s view that there are inadequacies in the consultation. We have reached this conclusion having had regard to the government Consultation Principles published on 14 January this year, which the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee referred to in its report, and which have recently been amended in light of comments made by the said committee. In short, the consultation’s use of digital measures is wholly consistent with these principles and, as the principles make clear, consultation needs to be considered as,

“part of a process of engagement”.

The engagement in this case has been very substantial and included: writing to a representative sample of 465 stakeholders, comprising key private sector employers, public sector bodies and third sector organisations; the establishment of an online survey which attracted 305 respondents and for which the results were analysed and published; the attendance of the three local enterprise partnerships, and the authorities within them, at shadow combined authority meetings; seeking feedback from the public via a query box on the shadow combined authority’s website; a parliamentary event; and a number of formal and informal briefings with the business and third sector communities. In short, I can confirm to the House that we believe the conditions have unambiguously been met, and that we are therefore seeking the approval of this House today to the order that the other place has already approved.

Religion: Advertisements

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 25th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally agree with the right reverend Prelate on that point, and the Government wholeheartedly support the freedom of expression and support faith and faith institutions in this country. The Government greatly value the vital role that religious individuals and organisations have in our society, and the part that they play in national life and public service. We also value the vital role that the Church of England and many Christian organisations and individual Christians have in our society, and the part that they play in national life, inspiring a great number of people to get involved in public service and providing help to those in need.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I very much take the Minister’s point, but is her Answer specifically directed at the special position of the Church of England, as the established church, or is she saying that she thinks that any religion—say, the Church of Scientology—or any political party should be permitted to advertise in the way that the Church of England wants to do? It is very important that we understand about whether a precedent is being set here.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I, and the Government, believe in the freedom of expression, and the freedom actually to not believe at all, as well as to believe in a variety of different religions.

Smoke and Carbon Monoxide Alarm (England) Regulations 2015

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 14th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, we come back to a very interesting debate about these regulations and the process used by the Minister’s department. I declare an interest as an adviser to Consumer Safety International and a patron of CO-Gas Safety.

I very much endorse the remarks of my noble friend Lord McKenzie, who speaks with great experience due to his presidency of RoSPA and as a distinguished Minister with responsibility for health and safety in the previous Labour Government.

Let me say at once that we on the opposition Benches support the regulations. Some practical, technical details have been raised tonight, to which I hope the Minister will be able to respond. However, as a matter of principle, we support the regulations. But they are, of course, confined to the private rented sector. I repeat again the point that I made last week: when it comes to carbon monoxide poisoning, we know that the work of CO-Gas Safety shows that far more deaths occur in owner-occupied homes than in the private rented sector.

We also know that there are issues about British tourists going to other parts of Europe, where the provisions are even worse than in this country. We need to recognise that these regulations deal only with a very small part of the sector.

The second issue is clearly the way in which the Minister’s department publicised the existence of the regulations for those who need to know. It is very hard to argue with noble Lords who feel that the department’s work has not been up to the standard that we should expect. I suspect some of that is due to the swingeing cuts that the Government have made in the number of civil servants. Indeed, the disparaging remarks that some Ministers made about civil servants clearly did not help morale in government departments. I am sure the Minister would agree that, if civil servants and the resources spent in relation to government departments are continually undermined, it will have an impact. I suggest that we see that impact here. It is quite clear that there was no budget for getting the message across to the sector and it instead relied on press releases. Face it: no one reads press releases anymore. It is such an old-fashioned approach to communication —certainly journalists never read them. Relying on press releases and fire officers is simply not good enough.

Clearly, the regulations will go through, and so this will come into law on 1 October. I suggest that the Minister could give noble Lords a great deal of reassurance if she were to say that, on reflection, her department will now engage in a widespread publicity campaign. I think she owes it to your Lordships’ House for her department to make amends. The only way I think it can make amends is to do the job that it should have done in the first place.

I also take the point raised by my noble friend Lord Beecham that it is not just about publicity among landlords but about publicity among tenants. Surely there are ways in which tenants can be informed. His suggestion of using bills and the work of the energy companies is an excellent example. I think that we could leave your Lordships’ House tonight feeling that we have done the proper job of scrutiny—which does not seem to have taken place in the other place to judge by the noble Lord’s report of that this afternoon—if the Minister were to say that she recognised that the department did not do the right job but is now going to do it.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate this evening. Perhaps I may first thank my noble friend Lord Crickhowell, because if I do not thank him now I may well forget, but I will refer to his comments in due course. I apologise to him for what happened the other day. I never knowingly omit noble Lords; I try to answer everybody’s questions, but on that occasion I failed.

My noble friend Lord Marlesford talked about the date of 4 September—in fact, many noble Lords referred to it. In his area in the eastern region, I understand a newsletter went out at the end of August. I am not saying that he has seen it, but I know that landlords associations up and down the country were making their members aware. Of course, if you are not a member of the landlords association you may well not have seen it, but it was making landlords aware from the end of August.

My noble friend talked also about the lack of a grace period. There is no statutory requirement to include a grace period. It is government policy that regulatory measures affecting businesses are brought into force on a common commencement date, which is usually either 6 April or 1 October, to help businesses plan for new regulations. The Government believe that it is important to enforce the regulations as soon as possible to help to protect the lives of private sector tenants. A considerable period has been allowed for landlords to prepare for the new duties—as I said, the regulations were laid in draft back in March.

There is also in effect a grace period, because where a landlord is in breach—the noble Lord, Lord Best, referred to this—they will have 28 days to comply with a remedial notice. If they do so, the local housing authority may not impose a penalty charge.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I hope that I can clarify that, in effect, the grace period means that the landlord has 28 days to comply after the local authority has been notified that the landlord is not compliant. The landlord has 28 days from the issuing of a remedial notice to comply. I hope that that clarifies things.

My noble friend Lord Marlesford asked about consultation, as did my noble friend Lord Crickhowell the other day. I do not think I answered him very well so I hope that I can give a fuller response now. The Government carried out a major consultation on this and 96% of the respondents agreed that the regulations were needed. Officials from the Department for Communities and Local Government, the Chief Fire Officers Association and local fire and rescue services have been in regular contact with industry bodies such as the British Property Federation, the National Landlords Association, the Residential Landlords Association and other stakeholder groups.

The Chief Fire Officers Association, as I explained in my opening speech, ran a national and regional advertising campaign. It included newspaper adverts in regional newspapers that stated that the timing would be October. It also ran ads in the trade press highlighting the forthcoming requirements for landlords to install both smoke and carbon monoxide alarms in the private rented sector. It estimates that the campaign reached more than 8 million people.

My noble friend Lord Crickhowell talked about the JCS I adverse report on the regulations. The department considered each of the committee’s concerns in great depth and acknowledged the error of not including a review clause. It committed to adding one at the earliest possible opportunity. We are grateful for the committee’s comments but believe that, with the addition of a review clause, the regulations should remain as drafted.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I am trying to reflect on what the Minister said. Is she seriously saying that the fire officers reckon that 8 million people somehow or other got notice that these regulations were going to come into force? I have great respect for the fire and rescue services, but that is frankly not believable.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, that is the information we have. I can ask them to clarify how they thought that 8 million people had received this information and write to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and other noble Lords who are taking part in the debate. I would not want information to be incorrect, but it is the information that I have.

Smoke and Carbon Monoxide Alarm (England) Regulations 2015

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 7th September 2015 Grand Committee

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I take my noble friend’s point: he is not a key stakeholder and he got it from someone who would be regarded as a key stakeholder. That includes local authorities, groups of landlords and managing agents. It is not long until 1 October, but the draft regulations were laid back in March, so people who have an interest in this—that is, stakeholders—knew that it was coming.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

When the noble Baroness opened her remarks, she made the point that most responsible landlords do this in any case. Clearly the focus here is essentially on poor landlords who probably have no connection with any of the stakeholder groups—I mean, it is extremely unlikely that they are members of the CLA. Given that we are probably dealing with the kind of landlords who do not have much to do with any such groups, we need a publicity campaign to get it across to them. The criticism here is that guidance three weeks before the start—which poor landlords will never see—plus a press notice which presumably was not covered by the media will simply not do the business. That is the point that the noble Lord is making.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness makes a very valid point. In fact, I remember the first day that my son moved into a student house with a boiler in his bedroom and I was terrified that he was going to die in the middle of the night. It is a really good point, which I shall take back.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

The Minister has not responded to the points that I made about European negotiations on safety standards. Would she care to write to me on those matters?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I will certainly do so. I have just spotted that point and I will certainly write to the noble Lord.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 21st July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I shall speak also to government Amendment 4, which will prevent regulatory functions exercisable by a public authority across the whole of England being conferred on a combined authority or local authority which itself can exercise the functions regulated by the public authority; and to Amendments 9 and 10, which make exactly the same exclusion to functions being conferred on a local authority.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, spoke to an amendment tabled on Report to amend the provisions in the Bill to exclude the possibility of transferring regulatory and supervisory functions to a combined authority. He outlined some of the regulatory bodies to which he could see such exclusion applying; for example, the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority in Cumbria, the Environment Agency or NHS regulators. As I said on Report, I can see a case for excluding from the scope of what is now Clause 8 the functions of any national regulatory body overseeing the exercise of public functions.

Amendments 3 and 4 do just that. As I have said, Amendments 9 and 10 to Clause 16 do likewise in relation to the conferral of functions on county or district councils. I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I welcome the amendments in this group, which, as the Minister said, follows our earlier debate and concerns expressed that services could be transferred to a combined authority plus the regulatory functions which oversaw those services. So I am grateful to the Minister for bringing forward these amendments.

I wanted to clarify with the Minister just one point. We talked about the NHS but we then went wider, and this is a very wide amendment. I want to ensure that the provision would not have a negative impact where there are currently shared responsibilities for regulation. I am thinking of health and safety in particular, where both the Health and Safety Executive and a local authority share responsibilities. I would not want the amendment to get in the way of the flexibility that exists in those arrangements.

I would extend that to the practice of designation of one local authority as a primary authority. Let us take the example of a company such as Tesco, with stores in many parts of the country. One local authority can take a lead responsibility to deal with Tesco under health and safety legislation to avoid duplication and to ensure that there is a pretty standard approach. I take it that the amendment would not get in the way of sensible arrangements like that, where it is clear that the local authority has some regulatory functions. If the Minister is not able to respond now, I would quite understand if she wished to write to me on it.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the amendment has no effect on local authorities’ existing regulatory functions. I hope that clarifies things for the noble Lord.

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[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I start by echoing the noble and learned Lord’s comments about the co-operation that has clearly been evident during the passage of this Bill, and I hope that the noble Baroness might be prepared to accept the amendment. It may not be absolutely perfect, but of course the Government would have the opportunity of bringing amendments in the other place. I think that it is clear that the House would like the noble Baroness to do that.

It is clearly important that the NHS remains a national service, comprehensive and free at the point of use, where broadly we can get the same quality of service wherever we live in England. Equally, I think that most of us want the NHS to contribute to this new devolution world, and clearly the integration of health and local authority services offers much in itself.

Often, the NHS is the largest local employer in any local authority area, so it has an important contribution to make to the local economy. In my own city of Birmingham, the NHS is responsible for huge inward investment in R&D, and it will be the same in Greater Manchester and in other parts of the country—particularly where you combine medical schools, teaching hospitals, academic health science networks and the encouragement of local industry. One of the things that we all want to see is the NHS being prepared to invest in innovative new products and medicines that have been developed in the UK, which we have been slow to adopt generally.

What we are trying to do here is to take both the huge advantage that devolution gives us and the integration of health and local government but without undermining the essential, national nature of the NHS. Noble Lords have mentioned four areas where that is important. First, in the reconfiguration of services, we cannot have combined authorities getting in the way of the necessary centralisation of specialist and tertiary referral services. Secondly, when it comes to training doctors and nurses, the reason that we have seen a crisis in recruitment and high costs from agency nurses is that a decision was taken in 2010 to reduce training commissions; we have to have national planning and decisions about the number of doctors and nurses that we train. We cannot have local authorities opting out of their responsibilities in that regard.

The noble Earl mentioned health visitors, which is an excellent example of where there has been a transfer of responsibility of public health duties to local authorities. Those health visitors were given a guarantee that they would be employed when they went on their training courses, so we cannot have local authorities now saying, as some are doing, “We can no longer afford to employ you”. Those health visitors were given a guarantee, and as a national service we have to ensure that they are found a job.

What we need to do is ensure that the national characteristic and nature of the NHS—the national rules, the standards and, particularly important, the Secretary of State’s accountability to Parliament for the NHS—are retained in this new devolution package. That is what my noble friend Lord Warner is seeking to enshrine in statute: some clear safeguards that reflect those national characteristics. I hope that the Government will be prepared to accept his amendment.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, Amendment 11 makes specific provisions in relation to a transfer of health functions from a public authority to a combined authority or other public body. It requires that the Secretary of State responsible for such services must continue to be able to fulfil his statutory duties conferred by existing legislation. It also requires that the combined authority or other public body to which the functions are transferred should adhere to national standards and accountabilities which are attached to those functions under existing legislation.

As I have said in previous debates, and as is set out in the Greater Manchester memorandum of understanding for devolution of health and social care, there is absolutely no intention through this Bill to remove or undermine the core duties on the Secretary of State, or to dismantle accountabilities for health services as enshrined in existing legislation. Whatever bespoke devolution arrangements are agreed with a particular local area, that principle will remain.

I state this as a clear commitment to this House. Thus, nothing in the Bill changes the position of the Secretary of State under Section 1 of the NHS Act 2006, which provides that,

“The Secretary of State must continue the promotion in England of a comprehensive health service”.

The Secretary of State retains in all circumstances ministerial responsibility to Parliament for the provision of that health service.

Likewise, the Secretary of State must always adhere to the core NHS duties. These duties include, when exercising functions in relation to the health service: a duty to secure continuous improvement in quality of services; a duty to have regard to the NHS constitution; a duty to have regard to the need to reduce inequalities; and a duty to promote autonomy. These duties are set out in Sections 1A to 1F of the National Health Service Act 2006.

As I have made clear, there is no intention or possibility of the Bill changing these duties of the Secretary of State. Further, as I have said in previous debates, any decision the Secretary of State takes about using the order-making powers in this Bill to confer health functions must be taken in conformity with these duties. Without in any way affecting these duties of the Secretary of State, if a combined authority were, for example, to have conferred upon it a function to commission certain health services, the provision in Clause 8—which the House agreed on Report about conditions and limitations when conferring functions—would allow us to require that the combined authority, when exercising its commissioning functions, must likewise be subject to these core NHS duties, such as to promote the NHS constitution.

On Report, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, commented that the issue we are discussing is more about symbolism, but he also recognised that one should avoid unnecessary legislation. I agree that this issue is one of symbolism. I am also very clear that symbolism is important and tempting. However, legislation is not the place for symbolism. The place for symbolism is in the discussions we are having and the commitments given to this House. For this reason, while I understand and strongly support the intention behind this amendment—that is, to make clear to all that the vital principles for the NHS will be upheld—I do not believe that it is necessary, nor do I consider that it is appropriate. As I have said a number of times, this Bill is an enabling Bill which includes general rather than service-specific powers. If this amendment were to be accepted, health functions would be specified on the face of the Bill, which would change the whole approach we have taken.

Noble Lords asked some specific questions—for example, on how to retain national standards where health powers are devolved. It is important to note that, when transferring functions to a combined authority or conferring functions on it, the Bill allows us to additionally place on a combined authority duties such as those held by the Secretary of State under new Sections 1A to 1F of the relevant legislation, as I have mentioned previously, or other duties held by NHS England or CCGs.

The noble Lord, Lord Warner, talked about the purpose and design of the Bill. We see it as a broadly enabling Bill, as I have just said. We have always said that we will devolve powers only where there is a clear accountable body. This applies equally to any health powers as to other powers that are devolved.

My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay and the noble Lord, Lord Patel, asked specifically about Amendments 3 and 4 as applying to regulatory functions such as those of the Care Quality Commission. Amendments 3 and 4, which we have just approved, mean that the regulatory functions of a national regulator such as the CQC cannot be devolved to, say, a combined authority exercising functions that the Care Quality Commission would have regulated.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, mentioned the importance of health in devolution. Health is absolutely an important element of devolution. As the Chancellor has said:

“We will hand power from the centre to cities to give you greater control over your local transport, housing, skills and healthcare”.

That is our aim and we will do that within a strong NHS. A strong NHS relies on a strong local economy and devolution will enable strong local economies with strong local governance. In areas with such accountabilities in place, such as Manchester, health devolution is something we support.

Given that I have placed those comments on the record, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 15th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I always hesitate to respond to the noble and learned Lord, because he always comes back at me, but I am sure that he is right about the statute. It is more about the symbolism of that leadership. I know that one should avoid unnecessary legislation, but this is crucial. This is a very thin Bill in terms of pages; in terms of its significance, it is hugely important. Some of us are looking for some reassurance in statute that the essential point of what the noble and learned Lord said will continue in future.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I start by thanking my noble and learned friend for putting everything so succinctly and eloquently in summing up what is the case in the NHS in relation to devolution, and the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for again eloquently outlining his amendment.

Amendment 66 puts certain limitations and conditions on the conferral of health powers on a combined authority or another body working with a combined authority. In particular, it requires the Secretary of State to consider that various conditions are met; that the other body must be a body corporate with a chief accounting officer; and that a memorandum of understanding is produced and reported against. It also prevents the Secretary of State intervening except in certain circumstances.

As we have discussed, Amendment 28, which was passed, and others in its group would enable any limitations or conditions to be specified in an order transferring health functions and were intended to provide assurance that any future devolution arrangements will continue to uphold existing accountabilities and national standards for the NHS.

Most of the limitations and conditions that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, outlines could be specified in an order using those provisions if doing so were considered appropriate in the context of a bespoke devolution deal. For example, we could enable the conferral of health powers to a combined authority to be accompanied by a condition that it must also meet current statutory duties held variously by the Secretary of State for Health, NHS England and clinical commissioning groups, thereby ensuring continuation of current NHS accountabilities and standards.

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[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am sorry to intervene again but surely the whole problem is that the Secretary of State may in fact devolve that to a combined authority under the Bill? That safeguard ultimately may not apply. That is the problem. Look at Clause 6(4). The very fact that by an order-making power a government department or a Minister of the Crown can be abolished takes away that essential safeguard. This is a local government Bill, essentially written for local government duties. I can see how it fits, but once the NHS is taken in, we are talking about a very different order. No one is objecting to what is happening in Greater Manchester—I applaud what is happening there. At this stage, all we are asking is for the Minister to allow us to consider what she has said and bring it back at Third Reading. She is, I know, trying to be very helpful.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am trying to be helpful, although I am not sure that I am being very helpful. I indicated to the House on Monday that we are considering with a view, as appropriate, to returning at Third Reading to the question of whether to exclude from functions that can be transferred those regulatory and supervisory functions of national regulators responsible for regulating public authority functions. However, I would add that our consideration is not about how to exclude them on an order-by-order basis but whether to take these regulatory functions out of the scope of the Bill. This would put beyond doubt—whatever devolution deals, including health, were agreed—that the position of the regulators, such as Monitor and the Care Quality Commission, would be untouched, as indeed would the NHS constitution and mandate and all the NHS standards of care and access, as my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay pointed out.

With these perhaps not entirely satisfactory explanations, I hope the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 13th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer to my Amendments 31 and 32, and thank the Minister very much for her response. Amendment 31 relates to the exclusion of the transfer of regulatory functions. I was very grateful for what the noble Baroness had to say, particularly that we will return to the issue at Third Reading. She referred to our debates about the NHS and naturally referred to NHS bodies, but the general principle arises with other functions as well. For example, I have been pondering Cumbria and the potential under this Bill for the regulators of civil nuclear plants and the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority to be transferred, under an order through Clause 6, to Cumbria County Council, which clearly would not be possible. Again, that would apply to the Environment Agency. I think the discussions the Minister is having with her officials between now and Third Reading need to go wider than just the National Health Service.

My Amendment 32 suggests that, because of the Henry VIII nature of Clause 6 orders, the super-affirmative procedure ought to be adopted. I know that in some circumstances, that procedure would not always be appropriate because of the length of time it takes. I am therefore very grateful for the noble Baroness’s Amendment 33, which was originally grouped with these amendments, because it meets the substance of my concerns without making use of the super-affirmative procedure. I am very content with her amendment and look forward to further debate on my Amendment 31, on the exclusion of regulatory and supervisory functions from Clause 6 orders.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

May I just clarify a comment that I made to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis? I talked about local authorities, but it does actually exclude London boroughs.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 29th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, if I may intervene on that, of course I understand that an affirmative order allows Parliament to have a debate, but so what? Nothing else happens. I think that the number of affirmative orders that have been rejected is seven. It is certainly a handful, so in reality we are giving executive power to Ministers to make absolutely any decision they like. The fact is that parliamentary scrutiny is virtually nonexistent. Of course, if we were able to amend or delay statutory instruments, as the royal commission on Lords reform argued some years ago under the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, that would be different—but we are not, so I am afraid that saying that an affirmative order is a protection simply is not true.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, we have talked about the Secretary of State’s ability to intervene, which in itself is also a check and a balance. The orders will be debated through both Houses of Parliament. I will make some progress on this, and if the noble Lord wants to intervene further, he is very welcome to.

For the debates it will be important that full details of the deal concerned, how it was arrived at and the outcomes expected of it will be fully available to Parliament. As I said in the earlier short debate, I am ready to consider whether the standard Explanatory Memorandums are sufficient to ensure that Parliament has all the information it needs in this unprecedented process of devolution. As to a requirement for a combined authority to publish an annual report on its deal in relation to health, there will be a process, as I said in one of our debates last week, for evaluating the progress on each deal agreed with each area. For example, the Greater Manchester deal has an extensive programme of evaluation, with evaluations being public documents available to all with an interest in the area and the progress being made. I do not believe that it is appropriate to make a requirement about the reporting or evaluation of some particular aspect of a deal—an aspect which may not be in all the deals that are agreed.

I turn to some specific points that noble Lords have made. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, talked about the Secretary of State for Health overturning decisions if he did not like them. It is a bit more than that. I think he could intervene if he thought that decisions would be detrimental to people’s health or well-being. That was the point I was hoping to convey, but perhaps I did not do it articulately enough.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Perhaps I have not articulated this—in fact, I wonder if the noble Lord and I are talking at cross-purposes. I am not talking about the Secretary of State intervening in the process of the deal and of the order going through both Houses; I am talking about subsequently, if matters went awry in a particular area. However, that would be the obligation of the Secretary of State whether it was for local government or health or whatever area we will be talking about. Perhaps we can leave that there and return to it in due course.

The noble Lord, Lord Warner, also made the point that it will always be the Secretary of State’s view that prevails. The noble Lord suggests that however great the local consensus might be, the Secretary of State has the power to override this. This argument lacks the essential element, which is how the Secretary of State will exercise his powers. These powers will be exercised reasonably, having regard to all relevant considerations, including local views and the NHS’s own plans in the forward view. In terms of service reconfiguration, the Government have pledged that all service changes should be led by clinicians and patients and not be driven from the top down. The Government have outlined strengthened criteria that decisions on NHS service changes are expected to meet. The criteria are: support from GP commissioners; clarity about clinical evidence bases underpinning proposals; arrangements for public and patient engagement, including local authorities being further strengthened; and the need to develop and support patient choice.

The MoU between the NHS England and Greater Manchester makes it clear that plans for devolution will align and support the objectives set out in the Five Year Forward View. The forward view sets out the NHS’s own plan for the next five years, supporting local areas to take forward plans for transformation, including an increased focus on prevention and integration of services. On the aspect of the 2012 Act that noble Lords have asked about, we have been very clear that existing NHS standards and accountabilities will be upheld. The NHS Act 2006 as amended by the 2012 Act sets out clear duties held by the Secretary of State in relation to the health service. For example, the 2006 Act puts a duty on the Secretary of State to,

“have regard to improvement in quality and reducing inequalities”,

and the duty is exercised in a way that supports local areas. He and other noble Lords asked about the compatibility between the 2012 Act and what has been proposed here. I can confirm that they are compatible with each other.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked who actually takes the decisions in Greater Manchester. The memorandum of understanding between NHS England and Greater Manchester provides that decisions are to be taken by the partnership between the local authorities and the health bodies—in other words, the Greater Manchester joint commissioning board as a board would operate. This reflects the principle that decisions are devolved to the most local level that is most effective and beneficial for patients and communities.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Who do I sue then? Who is accountable in this great mushy edifice that has been created? Who is the accountable officer? That is what we are trying to get to—who can you point the finger at and say, “You are responsible ultimately for what happens in Greater Manchester’s health system”? That does not seem to be coming through at all in this.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, there is a partnership board. Who you would actually sue on that board I do not know. It might be the chairman. I imagine that the ultimate accountable person, who you would actually sue, is the board itself because it is jointly responsible for the decision-making. It is a partnership board.

UK: Number of Households

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 29th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The Government are very committed to that target.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, on the value of migrants to the health service, does the Minister not think it bizarre that the 2012 Immigration Rules now state that unless nurses from other countries who come to work here earn more than £35,000 a year, after six years they will have to go back home? Is that not, as I say, a bizarre change for the Government to make when we are crying out for nurses both from overseas and from this country?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, nurses, doctors and other health workers are vital to keeping the NHS going and we would not want to do without them.