Modern Foreign Languages: Teachers

Lord Judd Excerpts

Wednesday 10th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, we hope that the increase in trainees will be permanent, but unfortunately we have had to make some difficult financial decisions in relation to the ITT bursary offer. As a result, we are offering the highest bursaries for those subjects where it is hardest to attract people, which are STEM subjects, because those graduates can command higher wages in jobs outside teaching.

[Lord Judd (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that if we are to have any hope of fulfilling the role that our Prime Minister sees for us as a leading nation in the world, we cannot give too much investment, support and encouragement to the teaching of foreign languages? For commerce and trade, they are vital. Also important—and, in my experience, indispensable—is the terrific record built up in international institutions by those from Great Britain participating as translators and interpreters. It is a wonderful way of having friendships—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but will he please ask his question?

Educational Opportunities: Working Classes

Lord Judd Excerpts

Thursday 5th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

Like others, I want to say how much I appreciate my noble and good friend having introduced this incredibly important debate.

I have certain contextual concerns about the whole education debate. We have to remember that education should be an emancipator and enabler, letting people discover who they are and what their potential and contribution can be. There is far too much talk about the earning capacity and measuring this from an early age. Children need to reach the point at which they know who they are and what they want to do, and then we can talk about earning capacity and where we are going with it.

I also believe that we talk an awful lot of nonsense. If we are going to tackle this issue seriously—and it is a grave issue—the resources have to be in place. We have to make sure that the resources are going to the places of deprivation and disadvantage, the places where the issue of social integration of different ethnic groups is a bigger challenge than in other places. It is no good not doing this and then trying to sort the thing out with first aid measures.

It is also important to look at our language around how we inspect schools these days. I used to hold up the inspectorate in my younger days as one of the great British institutions. I do not do that any longer. Just think what it does to teachers, children, their families and the whole community if a school is told it has failed or is failing. The language is preposterous. It should be saying: how do we help this school to increase its capacity and its ability to do the job it wants to do, and how do we make sure that the resources are there?

There is another thing that concerns me in the debate about education. We may inadvertently—I think it probably is inadvertent to a large extent—be slipping into a situation in which we institutionalise social disadvantage still further. Why? Why do we assume that music, the arts and literature should be the preserve of certain children, whereas other children are more practically orientated and therefore should not need these things so much? It is terribly important that a mechanic or a window cleaner is able to hum or sing the music of Mozart or Beethoven or his pop music that he likes, certainly by choice, but that he or she has every opportunity to do that. Instead of doing this, we are concentrating those qualitative dimensions of education with the already-privileged.

If I was asked what I was looking for from the outcome of education, it is that children should certainly be prepared for citizenship and the heavy responsibilities of citizenship but also that they have really had the opportunity to discover what it is to live and to realise that whoever they are, wherever they are, their contribution matters, and in that sense the comprehensive approach is indispensable, because either we are one community or we are not.

Trade Bill

Lord Judd Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 20th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Fairhead]

My Lords, I turn first to Amendment 3, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Lord Purvis of Tweed, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. I thank them for their contributions to the debate, and for the detailed and—as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, correctly said—robust discussions that we have had on this critically important matter.

Let us be clear that the protection of human rights is important; in fact, it is fundamental. That is why it has been given its own legislative framework through the Human Rights Act, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, stated. Not only that, but we have been consistent and are clear about our position on human rights as we leave the EU. Simply put, we will continue to uphold human rights and meet our obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights. The rights set out in the ECHR are already effectively and extensively protected in our domestic law by the Human Rights Act. The effect of Section 6 of the Human Rights Act is that regulations made under Clause 2 must be consistent with ECHR rights. Further, Ministers are required by Section 19 of the Human Rights Act to make a statement about a Bill’s compatibility with the European Convention on Human Rights, and this appears on the face of the Bill.

I am happy to confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, that there is no power under the Bill to modify the Human Rights Act, because there is no power to modify any primary legislation which is not retained EU law. That is made clear by Clause 2(5)(a) of the Bill. Regulations under Clause 2 must therefore be consistent with maintaining the UK levels of statutory protection provided by the Human Rights Act, and no amendment is necessary to provide that. This is why the Government consider it neither necessary nor appropriate to include human rights in the list of protections in our amendment to the Bill.

In fact—noble Lords have referred to this—we were worried that including human rights in the list could have unforeseen, unintended and, frankly, unwelcome consequences. It might, for example, suggest that the Clause 2 power could have modified our domestic human rights protections but for such an explicit reference. We are clear that that is not possible. It could also have implied that existing powers in other legislation, where there is no such express restriction, could be used in a way that is not consistent with our domestic human rights protections. Again, we are clear that they cannot. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for his agreement on this; I know that his expertise carries enormous weight in these matters.

I turn now to Amendment 4, tabled by my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering and the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones and Lady Henig. The Government agree with the spirit of this amendment: we must maintain UK statutory protections for food safety, including the protection granted by retained direct EU legislation. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, for confirming in hard data the excellence of our standards. That is testament to the standards that we have in the UK. As I have previously said, and for the reasons I have given, we propose the broad formulation of,

“the protection of human, animal or plant life or health”.

I appreciate that this House will want to have confidence that this category includes food safety, and I am happy to provide that. The whole purpose of food safety regulation is to provide protection for human life and health. I am also happy to commit to publishing guidance that explains that this broad term should be read as encompassing all EU food safety and public health laws that will be retained in UK law, as well as being compatible with our international obligations.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, asked whether proposed subsection (4A) reflects the Government’s commitment to the environment. The UK is committed to upholding its high environmental standards around the world. As with other EU trade agreements, our aim is to replicate the effect of the existing agreements, restricting any changes to technical fixes deemed necessary. The UK continues to be a global leader on climate action, as demonstrated by our ratification of the Paris agreement last November, and as part of the UK’s Climate Change Act agreement of the UK’s fifth carbon budget in July 2016. The 2008 Climate Change Act commits the UK to reducing our greenhouse gas emissions by at least 80% by 2050 over the 1990 levels. We want to ensure that economic growth, development and environmental protection can go hand in hand. Wherever UK legislation protects the environment, this amendment requires that our Clause 2 regulations are consistent with maintaining that protection.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, also asked about the wording in proposed subsection (4A)—she asked about the protection of protections. I am advised by our lawyers that, in drafting legislation—and I believe this to be true—it is important to be legally precise, even where this means that a clause might sound slightly odd on a plain-English reading. Our amendment effectively sets up a two-stage test. First, do Clause 2 regulations make provision in any of the listed areas? Secondly, if so, is that provision consistent with maintaining UK levels of statutory protection in that area?

I turn to other questions asked by noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, asked about the impact of the government amendment in devolved areas. Proposed subsection (4C) makes clear that the protections given through this provision apply to the levels of protection that have effect in the UK or part of the UK which are in place when the regulations are laid. If higher levels of protection are in place in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, these will be the levels that are maintained.

The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, asked how businesses and economic factors will be taken into account in the exercise of these provisions. This amendment is all about maintaining UK levels of protection in continuity trade agreements. We therefore think that this is outside that, because this is all about continuity.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest, as recorded in the register. I was very interested in the remarks of the noble Earl, Lord Lytton. The Government, of course, have constantly been committed: indeed, it has been on the face of relevant legislation. In any disputes about the national parks, scenic beauty and kindred issues take precedence. Will the Minister reassure us that what she is saying takes that point on board?

[Baroness Fairhead]

I am happy to make it clear that whatever exists now will continue to exist. This really is regarding continuity of the trade agreements that we are replicating as we leave the EU.

The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, asked some very specific questions that I will try to answer. The first was whether these applied only to the continuity trade deals, and the answer to that is yes. He asked whether it included all the provisions in transitioned trade agreements. The answer to that is yes: it includes all the provisions that we implement in our domestic law using the Clause 2 power. He asked whether the level of statutory protection includes published guidance, and the answer is that it includes all protections provided under primary legislation, subordinate legislation or retained direct EU legislation. Just to be clear, it includes all guidance that has statutory force.

I believe that the final question concerned the Food Standards Agency. It is our intention that it will continue to provide effective public reassurance. Again, the answer to that is correct. We might talk about the Food Standards Agency a little later on a following amendment.

I hope that I have addressed the questions, and I am very grateful for the constructive debate and the support the amendment has been given. Having addressed the two amendments, I ask the noble Lord and the noble Baroness not to press their amendments. I commend the amendment to the House.

Trade Bill

Lord Judd Excerpts

Monday 21st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, and thank him for having introduced this debate and moving his amendment. I also congratulate those who tabled the other amendments in this group. I will make only a couple of observations.

After a long life in politics I get very disturbed about self-deluding sentimentalism and effective legislation. We have all sorts of aspirations about food safety and hygiene. We also have aspirations about our commitments to the third world and the rest. But the test of effectiveness is whether the muscle is there in the legislation to turn these aspirations into reality. This is where we have to face the truth: a market will of itself not look to all these interests. The one firm principle operating in the market is of course price and profit; after a long life, let alone in politics, I am totally convinced that you have to have some other absolutes within that. The absolutes concern turning these aspirations into reality.

I am so glad that my noble friend Lady Henig spoke to her amendment with so much feeling and conviction. If we are serious about food hygiene, why can Ministers not put it into the Bill? What is behind their real, underlying position? Is it going to interfere in some way with the liberty of people in future to undercut these aspirations—indeed, these principles and policies which we have established in the past?

I have been deeply involved for much of my life in the third world, which is tired of sentimentalism. The third world wants to see policies that are really going to be effective. It is when we come to trade that this is tested. Are we going to enable third-world countries to build up their economies and look to the interests and well-being of their people, or are we going to turn them into playgrounds for people who are trying to make money? It involves having some discipline in the process and saying that the aspirations which we have held high are actually effective in our trade policy.

I really do not want, in the context of the Bill, to go down as just another sentimentalist who is a completely hapless victim of the open-market, liberal economics principles which are not accountable in effective legislation to the interests of real people in real situations—not least, the well-being of us all in what we eat and our ability to enjoy good health. The people who have moved and spoken to these amendments have done a very good job on our behalf and I hope that they will pursue the issues on Report.

[Baroness Byford (Con)]

My Lords, I have not put my name to any of these amendments, but I am very sympathetic to them and, had they not been tabled, I think I would have tabled some. My difficulty, having sat and listened to our earlier debates, is that this is just a Bill to allow us to transpose existing laws into our UK law; it is not really looking forward to trading after that has happened. So I ask my noble friend, before I go into the particular detail I wish to raise: if it is not appropriate at this stage, when is it appropriate during the passage of the Bill? Because somewhere, it must be, and I am not quite sure as to where.

I shall take the amendments as they are and follow the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Judd. Perhaps I should declare, as others may, that we are in the farming industry, and while livestock is not our particular area, we produce grain that obviously feeds livestock, and therefore we do have a family interest.

On the question of the rollover and how long this will last, which the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, raised very clearly, I ask my noble friend how long she sees this period carrying on for before we look to new deals.

The standards we set in this country are very high, and I believe it is quite right that they are so, but it is not surprising that many of my producer colleagues, particularly those who produce livestock meat and all that side, are very concerned about the long-term interests of their industry. They are quite fearful about imports perhaps coming in at a lower standard. One has to appreciate that, if that did happen in a big way, there would be many farmers who are producing food for us in this country who would not be there in the future. I think that the House has to get that under its belt. It is very easy to think that we can get food anywhere: we go into the supermarket and the shelves are filled. Yes, that is true, but we are dependent on so much of that coming in from abroad, so we need not to protect our industry but to understand the challenges it faces. I do not think producers are looking for special treatment, but they are looking to have that equal trading that many of us wish to see.

When I look at the CLA briefing—I declare that I am a member of the CLA and I was with the NFU earlier today—it says it wants to see exports of UK food outside the EU grow, and we would all support that. It thinks that free and fair trade between the UK and other markets outside the EU is a positive government ambition, and it supports any new free trade deals which meet that ambition. However, in seeking these trade deals it is imperative that equivalence of standards is met—that is what this debate is about—in order to prevent the undercutting of UK markets by the introduction of products that meet lower environmental or animal welfare standards. It believes that that would be very detrimental. Today I met NFU colleagues from East Anglia who were highlighting that.

Amendment 9, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, concerns environmental protections. This question is for her rather than for the Minister. Are we looking to protect the environmental standards that we have in this country, as opposed to the standards that they do not have in their countries at the moment? For example, is it acceptable to pull down rainforests to grow soya or other products, or should that be something which we have in mind ourselves as a detrimental step? So many aspects of the debate we are having tonight are hugely important, but I am not quite sure whether the noble Baroness’s amendment is seeking to protect UK standards as they are at the moment or whether she is thinking about international trading standards as well. There is a great difference between the two.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Byford]

I thank the noble Baroness; I assumed that she would mean exactly that. However, it poses some questions to me on her amendment, which I slightly struggle with. On food safety and food health, we have clearly set out standards in this country as to what is and is not applicable, and I cannot see that changing.

I agree with my noble friend Lady McIntosh entirely. The Bill as it currently is deals with the trade as we know it today, and refers to trade being able to carry on tomorrow, after Brexit. It does not—unless I have not read it through carefully enough—look further into the future. It would be a great shame if at some stage we do not have a discussion about that. There needs to be something in the Bill, somewhere—I cannot decide whether this is the right moment and the right time, or whether we should come back to it. The very nature of agriculture and farming is that it is a very long-term project; you do not come in and out of it quickly. You invest a lot of money in the future, we now have much more technology and things have changed enormously. There needs to be a certain degree of certainty, which I have not read in the Bill as it is.

Is there any chance that the Minister in her response could reflect the strong commitment that Michael Gove has certainly given to our sector and to the country in general to maintaining those standards? We look forward to having the Agriculture Bill, which, as we know, is still stuck in the Commons. It has achieved its Second Reading and Committee, and is parked there—it has gone no further forward. We look forward to seeing that. We do not have a chance to debate that, but trade is hugely important in this Bill. We need something in the Bill which gives a certain degree of confidence to people involved in the food industry; I do not think that I need to tell any noble Lords that the food industry is worth over £112 billion and employs over 3 million people. You are not talking about peanuts. This is a huge industry, and many people in it—I refer to my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe—are in small and medium-sized businesses. You are not talking about big businesses, although there are some, but about a lot of people who have a small interest in trying to produce food and supply the needs of our country and, more importantly—

[Lord Judd]

The noble Baroness is putting forward a powerful argument about the interests and well-being of the people in the industries, and of course that matters. But would she agree that what really matters is the health of the British people?

[Baroness Byford]

I hope that I relayed that in what I said earlier. It is hugely important. We are very lucky in this country to have food of an extremely high quality. I say “Best of British” over and over again; as a producer I would, but I believe in it.

However, I also look to the future, when we can export more of our high-quality food as well. Clearly, I am looking to the Minister to give some sort of directional steer to us, because at the moment we are slightly in unknown circumstances. We know what the Bill is trying to do, but we do not know what will happen in the future, nor do we know when we will be able to look at the Agriculture Bill, in which the two overlap. However, I am grateful for all the amendments that have been put down, because they have given us a chance to look at where we are, to look ahead and to raise quite a few important international questions on the whole question of welfare, the way we produce and the environment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

I am grateful to the Minister. She may have got the author of Amendment 53 slightly mixed up in her thorough summing up, but at this time in the evening, and speaking as one who is looking forward to sampling a wee dram of one of our country’s best exports at the highest standards, the Minister may be forgiven.

There is a paradox at the heart of this issue. I mentioned the complexity of some of the trade deals that the Government seek to take forward with Mexico, Singapore and Japan. They are either in force or agreed but components of them require further discussion. That means that it is relevant, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, and others have said, to bear in mind that they will be considering the future when we have asked for them to be rolled over.

To prove the point, we need to look at the only example that the Government have so far published: Switzerland. The Swiss themselves, although the Government have not said so, said explicitly that this agreement could serve as the basis for future economic trade relations. Interestingly—perhaps unhelpfully for the Government—they frame it as part of their “mind the gap” strategy on the basis of what they term the disorderly manner in which the UK may leave the European Union. We can rely on the Swiss to be frank and honest.

The paradox also exists that the rolled-over agreements will be on the basis of the existing EU regulations that the Government have committed to putting into law, which we could follow in three-year tranches under the Bill, again and again, but the Government have said that the justification for leaving the European Union is to change the way that we operate our trade policy. There is no surprise that when we are asking countries to roll over the trade agreement, but telling them at the same time that we are likely to want this agreement in place for us to have the flexibility to negotiate trade agreements based on separate regulations, they have been slightly resistant.

My amendment, and others in the group—I appreciate all the contributions from all the Members who have spoken—is an attempt to establish some basic principles and ethics. This is exactly the right moment to do that. Since 2010, the European Union has insisted on having sustainable development chapters in trade agreements. That has been positive for the world. It has been consistent in the contributions of colleagues who have tabled amendments that our argument is not just about concern that the UK would reduce its standards. One reason why we want to operate to the best standards is that if we are opening our markets to other countries, we do so to countries who are increasing their standards across the piece in environmental and labour law, and so on. It is an overt ambition of the Vietnam agreement that we use that clout as an economic market. That addresses the point of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, that we should move standards up.

Finally, I am still scratching my head about all the Minister’s comments about how unnecessary it is to have something in the Bill because the Government have given their assurances. When it comes to workers’ rights and the environment, the Government have said time and again that we need not worry, so why did the Prime Minister say just today that she would provide Parliament with a guarantee that we would not erode protections for workers’ rights and the environment? That is our concern: that the Government can give an assurance but when it comes to putting something in legislation they pull back until they have to.

[Lord Judd]

There is one other argument: whatever the good will, whatever the intention and whatever the commitment of current Ministers, unless it is in the Bill, it does not bind their successors.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord. He has been a leader in this regard. He will remember when I had the privilege of supporting other Members in taking through the 0.7% development Act. It is only when commitments given at a political level are enshrined in law that we can be reassured. That is our ambition with these amendments. However, I accept what the Minister has said at this stage. I shall not press the amendments. We will come later in the Bill to disputes and the other aspects of trade referred to by the Minister. For the moment, and on the basis of what the Minister has said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Economic Partnership Agreements and Trade Agreement) (Eastern and Southern Africa States, Southern African Development Community States, Ghana and Ecuador) Order 2018

Lord Judd Excerpts

Tuesday 27th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Sandwich (CB)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, I was not sure that I would still be here this evening, but owing to changes in the timetable I am delighted to be here. The noble Baroness has already received advance notice of some of these remarks.

I support the amendment to the Motion because, from my limited understanding, ratification of these SIs has been a very disappointing procedure both in another place and in this House. It seems as though Parliament has somehow been the loser when it no longer has any influence in these international agreements. It is therefore perhaps inevitable that the Opposition have tabled an amendment, which deserves support from around the House.

I welcome the noble Lord’s remarks, first about the Trade Bill, because this is a preamble to what we expect to come; it is just a rehearsal. I also agree with the noble Baroness and the noble Lord that we need a committee dedicated to this particular subject—as we reorganise the EU committees, perhaps. There is no question about that.

Be that as it may, as we have heard, there are questions hanging around the EPAs from a decade ago that still concern many organisations with expertise on trade. I have worked with some of them over the many years that I have been working on development. Taking Africa alone, I can think of worries about rules of origin, GIs, reciprocity, and about tax—in short, about whether EPAs or interim EPAs are really worth having when you already have 100% access to EU markets through the EBA agreements and the GSP+. There is also a concern, as we have heard, about whether the regional groupings such as SDEC and ECOWAS can truly reflect the situation of individual states, which are all so different. Then there is education: how many citizens in these countries are sufficiently aware of the pros and cons of entering these agreements?

I know that I am bringing up very old concerns that have been expressed by civil society over many years. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, will follow me and show some of his experience of fair trade over many years. ActionAid, ODI and Traidcraft have done a lot of work on the effects of EPAs on wealthier countries such as Ghana and Kenya. But the question is whether our Government have provided enough answers. Should there not have been more impact assessments to accompany these SIs? The whole point of scrutiny is that you are given a proper opportunity to make judgments, and quite apart from the strange ratification process already referred to, it seems that proper briefing on this occasion has been sadly lacking. So does the Minister agree, apart from answering all the questions first, that this whole procedure is back to front anyway; and, secondly, does she believe that some countries affected are being dragged into this by the EU without proper consultation and examination?

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, there is nothing I like more than to oblige the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich. It was good to hear what he had to say.

Central to our whole approach to European Union matters at this moment is the concept of bringing government home and of increasing our powers of scrutiny and accountability. Treaties of this kind, with their immense implications, opportunities and dangers for vulnerable and young economies, are no exception if we are to follow through the logic of what we have been arguing. It is not satisfactory to have an arrangement whereby the Government will listen to those committees with adjacent and valid observations to make. This House needs to have specific arrangements for scrutinising what is being done in this context.

--- Later in debate ---

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, raised a point about liberalisation. There is no doubt that we have to take into account the concern about this happening too quickly. That is the fundamental issue with liberalisation. But EPAs try to have proper timing and allow us to put control in the hands of the developing countries, which can choose sensitive products that they really do not want to be opened up. I agree that, if it was immediate and done with no protection, liberalisation would be an issue. However, even if we have not initially treated products as sensitive and cut them out, the EPA includes safeguards that can be applied: the tariff-rate cuts can be suspended and tariff-rate quotas can be applied. I agree that there are issues, but through these EPAs we try to address a number of those.

[Lord Judd]

I am obviously heartened that the noble Baroness agrees there is an issue, but there is perhaps one specific aspect on which she might give us a word or two. In evolving situations, what is suitable at one point will not be suitable at another—she has alluded to this herself. We have to be careful about what may seem appropriate at one stage if, for example, a country wants to start processing its primary produce. That is quite a hot issue. Are we in favour of its development or are we not? If we are, how do we facilitate its becoming a player and marketing its manufactured and processed primary products? Such a country may become very competitive in the world economy—but then we keep hearing about how competition is a good thing. We need a bit more detail on this.

[Baroness Fairhead]

We are trying to make these countries long-term trading partners. We provide support to help build and encourage investment, and it is likely that that will increase the processing capability of some of their plants, and will, therefore, potentially create competition for some of our companies. In a sense, however, that is what we are trying to do: to bring up trade. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, trade matters and can lift up nations. It is not about a single point in time; we are trying to encourage investment to help these nations move up and become long-term, mature trading partners that we can continue to deal with in the future.

I turn now to another area raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, the noble Earl and the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan: the question of regional integration. The EU has been one of the biggest supporters of African integration and efforts to deliver a continent-wide agreement. The EU has aligned the EPAs with the existing economic and customs union, seeing that as the best way, according to the preferences of EPA partners. It is clear that they are numerous and overlapping, not by the design of the EU but because we have worked with the flow of what it has done. To try to support regional integration, we are encouraging the African states to extend to each other the same level of liberalisation. This is to make sure that they aim to prevent increased imports from the EU displacing imports from neighbouring countries.

The issue has not been raised—I can hear it coming—but the most-favoured nation clause that might result from that is specifically designed to ensure that it applies only to major economies, and that excludes most of the African nations. We are genuinely trying to work with the flow of regional integration.

On the point raised about the AfCFTA by the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, it is a cross- African CTA that is being worked on and, as she will know, it has taken a while. We will continue to support the efforts to do that but in the meantime we believe that EPAs are a way of allowing those countries to progress.

As to the economic benefits, because these are EPAs they are asymmetric in favour of the developing nations and that is why we are seeing limited benefits in the short and medium term to the EU countries, including the UK.

The noble Lords, Lord Haskel, Lord Judd and Lord Stevenson, the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, raised the issue of parliamentary scrutiny. The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, was helpful in laying out what the current scrutiny is under the EU system. In taking forward the existing trade agreements, we have said that we will try to replicate them to provide as much continuity as possible. In the interests of providing parliamentary scrutiny, we will make sure that a report is prepared outlining any changes that have been made and provide opportunities for debates in both Houses to allow Members to comment on those change before ratification under the normal procedure. So we have tried to address the issue of trade continuity agreements.

This SI is not about future trade policy nor about our future scrutiny arrangements. As I said in my opening remarks, an Oral Statement was made in the other place by the Secretary of State, who laid out some of the ways in which we will engage. There will be a 14-week engagement across civil society, with unions and businesses, and that consultation is taking place on four potential free trade agreements. We will then create an outline approach which, again, will be made public and available to Parliament. Through that process, reports and accounts will be laid before both Houses.

In this House there are a number of Lords committees but none with a specific remit on trade policy. It is not for me to determine for the House of Lords what committee would be appropriate but, as I said, I am keen to talk to noble Lords and hear their ideas. At the moment we are working out our proposals but, ultimately, if any new committee were established it would be for the House of Lords to make its own decision on what that would be.

On the question of involving civil society on these existing EPAs, as I have said, we are continuing to engage actively with civil society. However, under the existing EU approach, there is a joint civil society engagement which takes place under the existing SADC EPA to allow those states’ approach to an effective implementation of the EPA, and it is on the implementation side where that civil society involvement is continuing.

I agree wholeheartedly with the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara—trade matters. We need to get that right. We remain committed to engaging further with Parliament as we develop an independent trade policy. We will continue to work with stakeholders across the UK to ensure that our policy delivers for this great nation.

I encourage noble Lords to support the UK’s ratification of these agreements, which will demonstrate to these countries the importance to the UK of agreements with them, as well as our commitment to development and global prosperity.