Elections Bill

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Wednesday 23rd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

I support Amendment 140, which is about setting up a citizens’ assembly to go through this question so that citizens can come to a view about the best voting system that they would wish to see if we moved to a PR system. I would therefore like to leave it to a citizens’ assembly rather than dictating it. I have my own personal preference, which is STV, but I do not think it should be about my personal preference; I think it should be down to a citizens’ assembly.

I do not think the British public are stuck back in 2011. I think we have moved forward and people feel that PR is the future. That goes across all parties and social demographics—apart from the Conservative Party voters who support first past the post—and all regions of the UK.

The way that Clause 11, regarding mayors and police and crime commissioners, was introduced by the Government in the other place, and the very fact that those people who were offered a mayor on a system of voting that was not first past the post have not been asked, is not levelling up; it is pushing us down and completely ignoring the voice of the people back in those regions who now have a metro mayor.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, back in the middle of the last century when I was Minister of State for Home Affairs in the old parliament in Northern Ireland, I had the task of reforming the local government system in Northern Ireland, which was then first past the post. This meant that in the west all the councillors were Irish nationalists and in the east all the councillors were Ulster unionists. Against some opposition from my own party, I introduced a Bill that included STV for local government. This resulted in the unionists in the west, who are the 40% minority, having representation for the first time, and they have it still today. Likewise, the Irish nationalists gained seats in the east that they would not have had under first past the post. So there was fair representation of Catholics and Irish nationalists in the eastern part of Northern Ireland and fair representation of unionists and protestants in the western part.

When it comes to UK elections, of course we still have first past the post because that is the UK law. What does that result in? It results in Sinn Féin/IRA winning many seats where they get less than 50% of the votes cast in their constituencies, and the result of that election is that they boycott the House of Commons. If we had STV or some other kind of proportional representation system in UK elections in Northern Ireland, I think we would have very few Sinn Féin MPs in the House of Commons.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, I want to make one very simple point related to what we are talking about. I agree entirely with the words of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, and my noble friend Lady Noakes. I really believe that first past the post has stood the test of time. I think that all the other ideas are more complex and more difficult, and that if the general public were asked and thought it through again, they would still vote for first past the post. What worries me is this. If it is true that most people out there still want first past the post, but the general feeling in here is that they should not have it, we ought to think very carefully about what that says about your Lordships’ House.

Northern Ireland: Supply of Medicines

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Thursday 9th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right to raise this important aspect of the question. Although veterinary medicines are part of the general discussions that we are having with the EU, they are by no means as far advanced as those on broader medicines. Unfortunately, we are some way from a solution on that matter.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, important as medicines and trade are, does the Minister recognise that the main challenge of the Northern Ireland protocol is a possible constitutional crisis?

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, we are well aware of that aspect; we are well aware that the protocol is not working for the people of Northern Ireland. There are societal and economic difficulties, identity is being eroded, and it is compounded by trade diversion. We need to restore the balance if we are to avoid a loss of confidence in the institutions established under the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, and that is what we are working to try to ensure.

Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland: EU Negotiations

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Thursday 18th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My noble friend is right that the current situation in Northern Ireland, with various grace periods and other easements in the implementation of the protocol, is nevertheless generating tensions and difficulties, and that the full implementation of the protocol, were that ever to be required, would generate even more difficulties. I think it is correct to think that, if we use Article 16 and safeguards, it will be to improve the situation over the one that we have now.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, the Belfast agreement has been mentioned, and I was very much involved in its negotiations. Can the Minister confirm that, in the agreement, all communities were involved and both the Irish Government and our Government were involved? Can he confirm, as Article 1 states, that they unanimously agreed that there could be no change in the status of Northern Ireland without the consent of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland? Can he confirm that the protocol was imposed on Northern Ireland without any consent?

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is obviously much more deeply expert in the Belfast/Good Friday agreement than I am, given his background. He is, of course, absolutely right in what he says about the article to which he referred. As regards the protocol, I point out that it was approved by this Parliament, but nevertheless it has created significant difficulties in its implementation. We seek to find a way forward from that and come to a better balance.

Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland: Power-sharing

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Thursday 16th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, we have set out our position in the Command Paper. We are very clear that the conditions for Article 16 safeguards are met, but we think the right way forward is to see whether we can find a consensual solution with the EU. That is what we are trying very hard to do and will continue to do. Consensual solutions are likely to be the solutions that stick—but, if we cannot find a consensual solution, we will have to go down other routes, as my noble friend notes.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the protocol is a breach of the Belfast agreement, that it may undermine that agreement and bring about the closure of devolved government within weeks, and that it may even, worse still, lead to violence on the streets? Does the Minister recall that the Belfast agreement, signed by both the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland, stated that it would be wrong to make any change to the status of Northern Ireland, save with the consent of the majority of its people? Were the people of Northern Ireland consulted about this protocol? If not, was the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland advised in advance of its contents before Her Majesty’s Government agreed it with the European Union?

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, the question involves a lot of rather complex issues and I feel I cannot really do justice to it in the time available. The overriding purpose of the protocol is to support the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, and it is a matter of great regret to us that it is being implemented in a way that is undermining that agreement and causing many of the problems that the noble Lord mentions. The protocol is clear that nothing in it infringes the territorial integrity of the UK or its internal market, or our customs territory; the problem is that, in practice, those requirements are not necessarily being put in place as fully as we would wish. That is why we need to find solutions that deal with these problems definitively and consensually, if we can, so that we can move on.

Northern Ireland Protocol: Grace Period

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Wednesday 10th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her question. We do not go into the detail of diplomatic communications at the highest level but I can confirm that the Irish Government were informed of this decision before it was made public by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on 3 March.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, likewise, I welcome the noble Lord to his position at the Dispatch Box. As one living near the border between the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom, and as a former MEP, I am very conscious that border issues can destabilise Northern Ireland. I am disappointed that the European Union does not recognise that. I am even more disappointed that the House of Lords European Union Committee did not recognise the tensions and trading problems that the protocol would create. Today the Vice-President of the European Commission, Šefčovič, is addressing the friends of the Republic of Ireland in the Congress in Washington. I hope he will ensure that he gets a report from our embassy in America on what is said. In so far as the future is concerned—

[A noble Lord]

Question!

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My question is this. In so far as the future is concerned, there must be agreement between the United Kingdom and the European Union. Will the Government ensure that the common travel area will be secured, that all three strands of the Belfast agreement will be supported and that the sovereignty of the United Kingdom will extend throughout Northern Ireland?

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his question. I agree very much that all sides must be sensitive to the social and political realities in Northern Ireland and to the need for the consent of both communities if it is to work effectively. Our actions have been aimed at restoring that confidence. Indeed, I can reassure the noble Lord that we will protect the common travel area—which is specifically protected in the protocol—but our overriding aim is to protect the Belfast/Good Friday agreement and the territorial integrity of the UK. Northern Ireland’s place in the customs union and single market will be protected.

EU Exit: End of Transition Period

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Wednesday 15th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My noble friend has been an indefatigable fighter for the independence of the United Kingdom from the European Union, so I fully understand the direction from which he is coming. He makes an interesting point. Whether, if I sent him into bat as our negotiator, it would improve the temper of Monsieur Barnier, I am not sure, but I am grateful for his comments.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, naturally, I must, because of the time limit, restrict my questions on Northern Ireland and internal trade within the United Kingdom. First, on trade from Northern Ireland to Great Britain, there is great concern among business and trade unions: what does unfettered trade with Great Britain mean? Can the Government urgently clarify this question for the people of Northern Ireland? As for trade from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, we accept that there will be new administrative costs. This will hurt the people of Northern Ireland; it will increase their costs as well. Will the Government consider a contribution towards those extra costs? Finally, if there is no agreement during this transition period, will the European Union require neighbouring nations to apply tariffs to United Kingdom trade to those countries?

[Lord True]

My Lords, on the first question, unfettered access from Northern Ireland to Great Britain is a fundamental core of the Government’s objectives, and I hope that will be reiterated in and around the documents I referred to, coming out later this month. As for some of the costs going over, particularly in relation to agri-foods, which, as the noble Lord will know, raise particular issues, we have discussed this, and the Government will be making a contribution on those elements. On his wider point about the EU, I never comment on EU policy. It is still our hope that we will get a free trade agreement.

Constitution, Democracy and Rights Commission

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Tuesday 16th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, I cannot anticipate the scope of the commission at this point. Of course, like my noble friend, I well remember the appalling events when the Lord Chancellor’s office was abolished by a press release from No. 10. I assure noble Lords that the commission will be proceeded with in a more thoughtful and sensitive fashion.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, considering the increased indifference among some English Conservatives towards Scotland and Northern Ireland, can the Minister confirm that representatives from Scotland and Northern Ireland will be on the commission, who would ensure the future of the United Kingdom?

[Lord True]

My Lords, as I have said, I am afraid that I cannot respond in detail prior to the announcements of the scope, composition and focus of the commission. However, the noble Lord makes a vital point about our union, the preservation of which is fundamental to the objectives of the Government.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Tuesday 30th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, way back in the middle of the last century, I was an active member of the European Youth Campaign. In 1975, I campaigned to keep the United Kingdom in the European Economic Community. I was a Member of the European Parliament for 10 years and, for a considerable number of years following that, was in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg. I was a member of the Christian Democrats, the PPE, in the Strasbourg assembly. I have visited every nation in Europe, including the Vatican. I feel European and British. But the longer I was in Strasbourg, the more I realised that the European Union was becoming a politically integrated union and not the European Economic Community that I had supported. I therefore, after much soul-searching, voted for Brexit.

The legislation is most complicated and gives the Lords the opportunity to present itself to the United Kingdom at its best. Alas, it gives those who wish to abolish the Lords a great opportunity to present the Lords at its worst. I am impressed by the maturity of approach by her Majesty’s Official Opposition.

Brexit has many challenges for those of us who live in the island of Ireland—both those in the United Kingdom and those in the Republic of Ireland. For the Republic, it will probably mean a reduction in agricultural exports to Great Britain, increased payments to the European Union budget and reduced CAP funding for its farmers. In Northern Ireland, we take no pleasure in economic problems in the south, because they would impact on us as well, and we hope that these problems can be overcome.

In Northern Ireland, it is correct that a majority voted against Brexit. It was not only Sinn Fein and the SDLP who voted in that way; the Ulster Unionist Party also campaigned to remain within the European Union. The latter has now decided to accept the referendum result and so it can now be reasonably assumed that it is a minority in Northern Ireland that still wishes to remain within the European Union.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Kilclooney]

Yes, that is the correct position.

In trade and business, the vast majority from Northern Ireland goes to Great Britain and only a minority across the border to the Republic, so the suggestion of a new border running down the Irish Sea would be disastrous both for Northern Ireland business and for employment. I note that this proposal has now been abandoned.

In Northern Ireland, I live near the United Kingdom border with the Republic. We welcome the objective of a soft border. We are assured that already Belfast, Dublin, London and Brussels are agreed that the common travel area will continue. Let us hear no more scaremongering, please, about passports at the border. Likewise, we are pleased that the United Kingdom will have no structural posts at the border and would like 80% of trade by small and medium-sized hauliers to be customs free.

Of course, there needs to be a similar response to this on the other side of the border. Dublin, now controlled by Brussels, has still not made known to us its ideas on trade across the border. In fairness, there is still a lack of clarity by the European Union and the United Kingdom. Yes, we welcome the agreement on a common travel area, a soft border and full support for the Belfast agreement, of which I was one of the negotiators, but what does the statement made pre-Christmas mean? It promised,

“full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which … support North-South cooperation”.

It seems to me a meaningless fudge at the present.

Clause 11 refers to our devolved institutions in the United Kingdom. Those of us from Northern Ireland will consider this closely, as we have experienced the advantages of devolution since 1921.

Northern Ireland has just experienced a record number of tourists last year, and today our unemployment level is not only smaller than that in the European Union or the Republic of Ireland but even less than that in Great Britain. I never thought I would see that day.

In particular, as farm structure and size of farms are different from those in England, we will want to ensure that after Brexit agricultural policy will be a devolved responsibility at Stormont. What will be the future of the European Union’s prestigious geographical indicators, such as Parma ham and cheddar cheese? We have an interest in this because we have two in Northern Ireland—Lough Neagh eels and Armagh Bramley apples. After Brexit, will the European Union maintain them, or will the United Kingdom take over authority for these designations?

Finally, there is not only the Irish border but the border between Gibraltar and Spain. In Northern Ireland, we have a special interest in Gibraltar, as many people were evacuated from there to Northern Ireland or born in Northern Ireland during the Second World War. I trust that the interests of Gibraltar will be upheld and that the European Union will not give Spain a veto over any final EU-UK agreement that would wreck the agreement.

Franchise: British Citizens Abroad

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Thursday 20th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

We have set up consultations and are hoping to get responses from everybody who might be involved in this. That will no doubt be one of the things that comes up.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, as Irish citizens in the United Kingdom have exactly the same electoral rights as British citizens, will the removal of the 15-year ban apply to Irish citizens abroad as well as British citizens?

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

My Lords, the noble Lord has slightly got me on that one. I will have to write to him.

Georgia

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, it is entirely fair to say that Ukraine is considerably behind Georgia in many ways. There was a free and fair election in Georgia last spring which resulted in a change of Government. The Georgian Government have just announced that on 31 October this year there will be a presidential election. Of course, that is not to say that it is a perfect democracy. There are a number of issues, including cases against members of the previous Administration, about which we are concerned. However, when I was in Tbilisi I had lunch at the British embassy with MPs both from the governing party and from the opposition. There are many countries in what was formerly the Soviet Union in which one could not do that.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, given that the European Union accepted Cyprus as a member even though its Government did not govern the entire island of Cyprus, why does the European Union welcome Croatia and not Georgia as a member?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I note some of the unspoken sentiments behind the noble Lord’s question. As he knows well, the process of admission to the European Union is long and arduous. Georgia is at a very early stage in that process. Georgia’s administrative capability and economic changes and the judicial, rule of law issues that it will have to go through mean that any approach to the European Union will be relatively long, but that is also true for some of the western Balkan countries.