Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill

Debate between Lord Kilclooney and Lord McAvoy

Thursday 21st April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, this is an interesting debate, but I wonder—I might annoy a few people by saying this—about what the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, said about people’s perceptions and about the indication by the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, that people feel strongly about this. I always listen very carefully and closely to the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, because in his life he has experienced things which, to my mind, give him the right to speak on these issues.

I will pose a question—and maybe run for cover once I have asked it. Does this debate, with some of the things said here today, help the situation in Northern Ireland? Does it contribute to cross-community spirit? Does it allay suspicions? Or does it increase them? Clearly, in 1998 the people of the whole of the island of Ireland voted to accept the status quo, so any change must come through consent—and, as far as I am concerned, the principle of consent is a complete and utter guarantee that any change, if it ever happens, will be through consent.

Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, I managed to call on somebody to give me some advice on the current position. Article 4 of the constitution of Ireland refers to the country as “Ireland”. Legally, that is the country’s name. We cannot tell that country what to call itself. We in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland cannot dictate to somebody else what they can call themselves. To suggest that in any formal treaty or any signed agreement between our two sovereign countries we should tell the Irish Government that they should call themselves the Republic of Ireland is surprising, coming from the noble Lord, Lord Lexden.

[Lord Kilclooney]

I think that the noble Lord is missing the point. We are not telling the Dublin authorities what to call themselves. We are trying to get the present Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to comply with the law that we created in 1949.

[Lord McAvoy]

I am contributing to the length of this debate and I should not be. These are international treaties. We cannot tell somebody else how to designate themselves. So I am quite surprised at the noble Lord, Lord Lexden—although I was very impressed that the noble Lord, Lord Bew, weighed in to support him. It made me a bit wary of saying what I said—but, on the other hand, I have said it and I will leave it at that.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Lord Kilclooney and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 4th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, we come to an issue which was discussed at Second Reading, in Committee, on Report and now again at Third Reading. The creation of an Opposition in the Northern Ireland Assembly already has been discussed extensively at every stage of this Bill but I need to apologise if my remarks sound repetitive. I maintain the position that the Opposition have held before. This amendment acknowledges the powers of the Assembly regarding an Opposition. Behind it there is an understandable concern to prevent the Assembly withdrawing anything it were to grant. However, as I have said so many times before, the Northern Ireland Assembly is a special creation designed to have as many representatives of the community in different shades as possible. It is not the time for this amendment.

I repeat that unfortunately this is not the time to accept this amendment. In June 2013, the Assembly and Executive Review Committee concluded that, as yet, no cross-community consensus had been reached. This followed a government consultation in 2012 that reached the same conclusions. The Assembly must reach a cross-community consensus on the creation of an Opposition before Parliament can consider legislating in this way. Consensus cannot be created retrospectively as this amendment would seek to do. It is for the Assembly to make the first moves towards creating an Opposition.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

The issue is about having an Opposition. Should it be our Parliament making this decision or should it be by consensus within the Northern Ireland Assembly? In taking the latter position, the Government are asking some of the five main political parties in Northern Ireland, all of which are in the Government, to resign to become the Opposition. What incentive is there for any of the five parties to resign from the Government? The answer is none: they will never reach a consensus to have an Opposition.

[Lord McAvoy]

I take a slightly more optimistic view. Whether I have that view or not, the fact of life is that this is for the Assembly. As I mention that, I notice the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, has a smile of experience on his face. I hesitate to say this but it is not yet in the tradition of this Parliament, although I hope that we are on the road to it. Surely the latest stramash—the incident of last week—shows that we are not there yet. But we are on the road and we should be going there.

District Electoral Areas Commissioner (Northern Ireland) Order 2012

Debate between Lord Kilclooney and Lord McAvoy

Tuesday 20th November 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, first, I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, to the post dealing with Northern Ireland. As I am sure she will pick up very quickly, boundaries are of great interest to all political parties in Northern Ireland, perhaps even more so than in the rest of the United Kingdom. I am not quite sure whether she is a veteran of the debates on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill but that was certainly a very interesting time and I thoroughly enjoyed my part in it.

Can the Minister tell us whether there have been any objections to the delay in making this appointment and putting this order through, and whether there were any objections to any part of the process? We take the view—and my honourable friend Vernon Coaker has always made it quite plain—that these matters that are devolved to Northern Ireland must be dealt with in Northern Ireland. Especially when it comes to boundaries, we will work closely with all the parties in Northern Ireland to make sure that they are accepted.

However, there are one or two questions. This post is likely to be controversial and I wonder what the Government’s response is to any controversy that has arisen over this post, which is quite a significant one. Perhaps the Minister can answer those questions when she responds. I reserve the right to perhaps come in again if any comments require a response from me.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, I welcome the order and will certainly not be speaking at any considerable length on the subject. However, I am greatly encouraged that the Minister thinks that local government reform in Northern Ireland is “relatively simple”, which I think was her opening phrase. As a Minister in 1972 introducing the reform of local government in Northern Ireland, I did not find it relatively simple—it was very controversial indeed. It is nice to know that after 40 years what I did at that time has existed with some success. It is even nicer to find that it is considered to be a relatively simple affair in Northern Ireland today, although I think that the noble Lord who has just spoken was hinting that it can also be controversial in Northern Ireland.

It is a difficult subject for the Committee. As the Minister said, some of the items are really for the devolved institutions and some are for our national Parliament here in Westminster. I am wondering what speed we are going to work at. We were to have a local government election in 2011, but that has been extended because the boundaries were not agreed. Have we got a target date now for the next local elections or has it simply been extended without a target date? There needs to be clarification, not just for the Committee but for the public generally in Northern Ireland, as to where we are going and at what speed. I notice in the order, for example, that the district electoral area commissioner will be appointed “as soon as practicable”. What does that really mean? How soon will it be? It is time that we moved ahead with local government reform in Northern Ireland.

I personally welcome the idea of the 26 councils in Northern Ireland, which I introduced in 1972, being reduced to 11. That itself is a controversial subject in Northern Ireland, even within some of the political parties, never mind among them. You can never please everyone. For example, in my former constituency of Strangford, the borough of Castlereagh is now being linked in many respects with the borough of Lisburn. I find that very difficult to understand but accept the recommendation that there should be 11 councils in Northern Ireland.

Within each council area—here we are talking about boundaries and the number of councillors—I assume that there will be a councillor for each ward. We are discussing the joining together of various wards in an electoral area. If three wards are joined together, I assume that there will be three councillors. If four wards are joined together, I assume that there will be four councillors. I hope that that will be clarified. Will there be a minimum number of wards that can be joined together, and a maximum number? For example, if a new council boundary encloses 11 wards, is it possible that all 11 wards will be in one district electoral area? I would not have thought so; there must be a minimum and maximum, and I would like to know what they are.

Otherwise, I have no objections to the order. It is the way forward for Northern Ireland. Some of the councils in Northern Ireland are ridiculously small in population, yet have the same powers as some of the very large district councils. It is good to see this reorganisation, I wish it godspeed and I look forward to the Minister’s reply.