Economic Activity of Public Bodies (Overseas Matters) Bill

Debate between Lord Leigh of Hurley and Lord Collins of Highbury

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

No, the noble Lord is not right. That is not what I said. We have guidance about specific investment in the Occupied Territories. That is what the Government issue now. Why is that so confusing?

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

What, then, is the effect of proposed new subsection 4B(b) if not a blanket ban?

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

Do you mean “must have regard to”?

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

Proposed new subsection 4B(b).

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

We currently have guidance on human rights and investment decisions. On other groups of amendments we will discuss the whole question of environmental, social and governance issues. When a public body is taking into account investment decisions, as a private company would, it takes into account those sorts of policies. We will come on to pension schemes in a later group. The problem we have at the moment is that this debate is on BDS but we are actually talking about ethical investment policies. No one is concerned about those issues when we have general debates about procurement and ethical policy. This comes down to specific targeting campaigns that are not to do with human rights.

I strongly defend the right of Israel to exist. I strongly defend the right of Israel to defend itself. Those two things go together. If a campaign of BDS is saying that Israel occupied territories in 1948—many of these campaigns talk not about 1973 but about 1948—I do not agree with that. Israel exists and has a mandate to exist. We must respect that, and I strongly believe in it. But when we come to human rights and investment policy decisions, the Government are more than capable of giving guidance on that, because they do so at the moment through the UN guiding principles, the Modern Slavery Act and all the other things that we have done. The Procurement Act even has paragraphs in it as well. So it is not impossible to have the sort of guidance that we are advocating in this amendment.

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

I simply say that the noble Lord has criticised the wording and language of the Bill quite specifically. If this amendment is to be presented at a later stage, proposed new subsection 4B(b) does not work because it is a blanket ban.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I am more than happy to discuss the wording of this amendment and this proposal. We are not advocating blanket bans. There must be a reason for a ban. The FCDO issues a list of countries that have human rights issues—some, such as North Korea, have very clear issues—but they are not all countries where you would ban engagement or investment, or say, “That’s the end of the road”. An ethical investment policy needs to look at a range of issues—basically, the ESG issues that we will come on to in later groups. I do not want to go through them now.

Trade Union Bill

Debate between Lord Leigh of Hurley and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 23rd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to oppose the proposed amendments to Clause 11. We discussed tangential matters on earlier days, but this focuses on the core issue of transparency. I think that of the 25 unions with political funds in the UK, 10 are not affiliated to the Labour Party and the remaining 15 will fund political campaigning unconnected to the Labour Party. We are not talking here about the donations to a political party, which are of course disclosed very easily, normally being large sums of money, but the amounts which, given that the amendments to Clause 10 will not happen, will be within the political fund. This is about understanding what those payments from within the political fund will be. It is very difficult to know what they are at the moment.

Doing some desk research, one can see the nature of the recipients of the fund but one cannot see the amounts. In the past, of course, these have included campaigns which all of us would approve of, encourage and welcome, such as those mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, against apartheid or the BNP. Currently, as far as I can see, they include campaigns supporting the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, opposing outsourced contracts in the public sector, opposing welfare reform and, in particular, opposing Israel in the sense of supporting BDS—boycott, divestment and sanctions—as well as just general funding of think tanks.

Union members might be happy with all of this, but do they not deserve the right to know the amounts that are being spent on these causes? I take the point from the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that there is the requirement for a ballot, but that ballot is open for, I think, about three weeks. The last one, for Unison, was in May, I think, and despite being open for three weeks, it attracted only 18% support. It is not clear that people are focusing on what is going through the political fund.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I come back to the point that there is a tendency to forget one fundamental principle: unlike the Conservative Party, for which the noble Lord is treasurer, trade unions are fully democratic in terms of their structures. Decisions to spend on particular issues stem from the branch structure or the workplace structure, all the way up to the executive. These decisions to spend on particular things are taken not in isolation but within the constitution and the rulebook. If people query whether they have been made in accordance with that constitution and rulebook, members have a remedy.

[Lord Leigh of Hurley]

I do not think anyone is suggesting that these are improper payments; the suggestion is that there is a lack of transparency as to what they are. I am not sure I take the point about the Conservative Party being undemocratic, but we will leave that for a moment. The noble Lord invited me to look at the accounts on the Certification Officer’s website, and I have done so. The total political funding is about £24 million. The largest fund is that of Unite, with £7.8 million of income. When one tries to understand the expenditure within that, one sees that it simply states that political fund expenditure was £1.17 million and that expenditure under Section 82 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 was £3.82 million. No further information is supplied, other than the quite interesting information that Unite has in its balance sheet of the political fund £14.8 million. It is much the same for other unions—I have been through quite a few of them.

The point remains that I am sure that many members of unions would like to know and to have reported where their money is spent. Are all union members who are working on Trident submarines happy that union funds are spent supporting CND?

[Lord Leigh of Hurley]

With respect, a director of a private company, as I am, is a different phenomenon from a public body, such as a union. Directors of private companies have to account for all expenditure.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

Let us pose a question to which the noble Lord may know the answer. He is a treasurer of the Conservative Party. Local associations hold substantial funds, but Conservative Central Office appears not to know just how much they have or how they spend it. Perhaps he could enlighten the House now: how much is held in funds of local associations of the Conservative Party?

[Lord Leigh of Hurley]

With great respect, this is a debate on the Trade Union Bill.

Trade Union Bill

Debate between Lord Leigh of Hurley and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 10th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Leigh of Hurley]

Indeed, as I have said. We do not know where a very large proportion of it—46%—goes; it goes on political activity.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

The trade union movement in this country is one of the most highly regulated in the world. It is required to submit an annual return to the Certification Officer. Every single penny that is held in trust of the membership is accounted for in that annual return. Every single penny is also recorded in the published annual report. This is far more transparent than any private company that donates to the Conservative Party. As I said, that is money that it may spend on political purposes. It does not have to. It could be for a campaign for civil liberties or voter registration, or a campaign against racists and fascists—and for safety at work, and lots of other things.

[Lord Monks]

Or supporting a Conservative Member of Parliament.

[Lord Leigh of Hurley]

I thank you. I did actually read the Certification Officer’s report this afternoon. It details exactly income and expenditure, union by union, but it does not specify exactly where the money goes.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

The noble Lord read the annual report of the Certification Officer, but if you go on the Certification Officer’s website you will see published there the annual return of every single union. You can see that—and it will have a copy of the annual report.

[Lord Leigh of Hurley]

Thank you. I have read the annual reports of a number of the unions and, as I say, 54%—according to Mr McNicol; I am taking him at his word—goes to the Labour Party. On the rest, it is not clear; he has not stated where it goes, and I believe he was asked or will be asked where it goes.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

The money that a union collects is foremost a union’s money to spend for the benefit of its members. The fact that it does not give money to the Labour Party does not mean that it disappears in a cloud of smoke; it is there to be used. If it has not spent it in one financial year, it will be on its balance sheet. The impression being given is that somehow something dodgy is going on with millions of pounds. Nothing dodgy is going on. If you want to see something dodgy, go to private companies that do not have shareholders which donate to the Conservative Party.

[Lord Leigh of Hurley]

With great respect, private companies do have shareholders and have to produce annual accounts. The point that I am making is simply that there is money raised for political funds, and we do not know where 48% of it is allocated. It is entirely up to unions how they wish to allocate the money. The point I am making is that those people whose money is taken on an opt-out basis do not have the transparency that they might be given.

Let me help a little further. The point has been made, first, about whether it is fair and, secondly, that there have not been any complaints. I do not think it is enough to say that there have not been any complaints, given, in most cases, the very small sums that are taken on an opt-out system. I draw noble Lords’ attention to a poll of Unite members, undertaken in July 2013. The poll had a statistical margin of error of 3.67%. Before taking the poll, Unite members were asked a factual question: “In the 2010 election, how did you vote?”. Of the people questioned, 28% voted Conservative, 20% voted Lib Dem and 40% for the Labour Party. I am sure the political spending did not reflect that, but none the less that is how Unite members actually voted. They were also asked whether they contributed to the union’s political fund. Only 37% said that they believed they contributed to the political fund. That is factually incorrect, but that is what they thought. They were then asked: “Would you support or oppose Unite making further large donations to the Labour Party in the future?”. Some 49% of Unite members, when asked that question, said no. They may not be complaining, but are they really aware of what is going on and is it really fair that their money is taken on an opt-out basis?

Some people think that the rules should be changed so that members have to opt in—