House of Lords: Peers’ Car Park

Debate between Lord Mackay of Clashfern and Lord Newton of Braintree

Thursday 15th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, I think that someone should say something from this side of the House. As one of the disabled people who has been inconvenienced by these arrangements and who, to be honest, was initially very stroppy about them, I have two things to say. The first is addressed to the noble Lord, Lord Peston. It is not a question of whether we are banned from talking about security: the plain fact is that you can talk about security only if you talk about risks, and not just the risk which might have been headed off with this action but also a lot of other risks which might not have been headed off. By doing that you alert people to all your anxieties—which is one of the general points about risk registers overall, but I will not go down that path. The second point is that after some initially rather tetchy conversations with senior people in Black Rod’s office, I found myself persuaded by the information that was conveyed to me privately. That rather picks up the point that has just been made by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, will not press the Motion. I have a deep affection for him, but I could not vote for him.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I think that it is absolutely clear that Members of this House would be able to discuss any matter if they wished. On the other hand I believe that Members of this House exercise a wise discretion in not having a public discussion about matters of security, and that the arrangement by which these matters are left to a committee has worked well in the past. It is obviously necessary when making arrangements that seek to eliminate security risks as far as possible to take the convenience of Members of the House into account. Therefore, I think that it was very necessary that the consideration of the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, and the difficulties that he and others faced with the new arrangement should be taken into account. As I understand it these have now been taken into account; whether that has been done to the noble Lord’s complete satisfaction, I am not absolutely certain. Anyway, I hope that that can be done.

These are lessons to be learnt in the way in which the committee may be administered. However, I do not believe that it is at all wise for us to discuss these matters on the Floor of the House, not because we cannot do so but because it is just unwise for us to do so. I hope that all of us may subscribe to that. I have every confidence in the committee and in Black Rod and in those who advise the committee on security matters. However, I do not believe that it would be at all advisable for us discuss these matters here. I hope that the noble Lord—for whom, as he knows, I have the greatest respect and affection—will find it a success that he has brought these matters so far to the attention of the House; that his difficulties will be considered even further if that is necessary; and that he will withdraw this Motion. I believe that that would be a sign of what I know he is: a very great man.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Mackay of Clashfern and Lord Newton of Braintree

Monday 28th November 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, in view of the Prime Minister’s speech, to which the noble Baronesses referred, I thought it right to write to him to give notice of the amendment which I am moving. I copied the letter to the Secretary of State, to Maria Miller and to my noble friend Lord Freud. I got a very substantial reply from Maria Miller quite recently, explaining to me first, that the Government’s point of view was to try to get people to reach agreement; secondly, that various improvements were to be made in the system for getting money off the recalcitrant parent; and thirdly, that the amounts likely to be charged to the parent in question in my amendment would be rather small. Unfortunately, on the main point the letter appeared to hold to the previous position, which is why I am moving this amendment.

So far as I am concerned, I am perfectly happy with an arrangement in which, in the words of the statute, before the commission or its substitute accepts a person as an applicant, the commission may,

“before accepting an application under those sections, require the applicant to take reasonable steps to establish whether it is possible or appropriate to make such an agreement”.

I am entirely in favour of that: the less that the CSA, or its successor, has to be used, the better.

Unfortunately, experience has shown that there are some people with an obligation to their children who are not willing to make such an arrangement. When I first became Lord Chancellor I distinctly remember receiving a number of heart-rending letters from people who had obtained decrees in the magistrates’ court and the defendant had disappeared. The people writing could not do anything about tracing the defendants. They did not have the necessary resources. It is difficult enough for a large international group to trace somebody who wants to hide. For a lady on her own—and usually it was a woman who was writing, although that does not necessarily follow—to try to find somebody who wants to hide from his obligations is an impossible task. That was one of the motivations I had in supporting, with my noble friend Lord Newton of Braintree, the 1991 Act which set the CSA on its rather troubled course.

The principle of it was perfectly reasonable. The only difficulty was to implement the full policy, because some additional policy considerations were put on to it, which made the formula and its application rather difficult. The situation we are in now is that the Government are supporting the view that, if possible, parents should reach agreement about their children. As I say, I entirely support that. It is the principle behind the Family Law Act 1996, which I was responsible for bringing to Parliament and which went on the statute book, but so far, as far as this part of it is concerned, remains unimplemented. I entirely agree with that. However, when a woman, as a typical example, has taken all reasonable steps and done all that she can to reach an agreement but cannot manage it, I do not agree that she should be charged by the CSA for her application. I entirely agree with the power given in the 2008 Act to require fees to be paid—that was perfectly reasonable and was to be done by regulation—but I want to make an exception to that power which would prevent fees being levied on a woman in the position I have just described. That is utterly unfair. If anyone is to pay for that, surely it should be the person who has caused the difficulty by trying to escape from his moral obligations. There is no question of the woman getting benefit from this—she is acting on behalf of her child.

In her letter, Maria Miller mentioned that they were raising the level of child support. So be it, but the last thing you would want to do with the enhanced level of child support—which, I assume, is considered necessary for the support of the child—is to use it to pay a fee to the CSA. I do not understand how this can be justified. It is purely a matter of justice and fairness and nothing else. It is a short point and very easy to state. With that, I move my amendment.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, I know other noble Lords have attached their name to this amendment but I crave the indulgence of the Committee for a few minutes. As my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay said, we were in cahoots on this 20 years ago. We are in cahoots on it today and I support him totally in what he has said and what he is proposing.

At one stage I thought it was a pity that this group of amendments had not been placed with the next group. I did not agree with everything that was said on the previous group, but I do not have the courage to say who I disagreed with and so I will keep my head down on that. I should like the Minister to explain to me sometime—not tonight—the overarching coalition philosophy that links the Public Bodies Bill proposition that Ministers should take all decisions and the NHS Bill philosophy which says that Ministers should take no decisions. He can think about that and come back to me at his leisure—which might be in about three years’ time.

I, too, am grateful to Gingerbread for some helpful briefing. I wish to cover some historical points, one of which indicates that I have some sympathy with one of the noble Baronesses facing me—namely, the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock. My noble and learned friend has used characteristically more emollient language than I, but the original CSA proposals were made difficult by two things: one was that the Treasury wanted too much money out of it too soon; the second—and there have been echoes of this in the discussions today—was that the political classes, and I include myself in that, did not understand what they were dealing with.

There are four people in this Room who are former MPs—one of whom is in a Trappist position because she is the Deputy Chairman—my noble friend the former Member for the Cities of London and Westminster; my noble friend the former Member for—I forget what it was called but it was the Borders.

Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill

Debate between Lord Mackay of Clashfern and Lord Newton of Braintree

Tuesday 15th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

I agree with that and am very much aware of it, but it is still a mere balance of probabilities. Although it can go very close to the criminal standard, it is still a balance of probabilities that is being used, and I would say that the criminal standard requires a jury in effect to believe—to be sure—that this is what happened. I regard “reasonable belief” as a very strong and appropriate phrase to use where the person initiating the procedure is the person with the responsibility to have before him or her all the necessary material.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, having stuck my neck out first one way and then the other in the earlier part of our proceedings, I had decided to keep my head down on this one. I want to say to my noble and learned friend, given the views I expressed in the House earlier in the day, that he has made me feel better. It may be respectable to keep my head down, so I shall continue to keep it down.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Mackay of Clashfern and Lord Newton of Braintree

Monday 28th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

I agree. It tempts me to extend my remarks a fraction further to a point I had omitted. The Ministry of Justice knows nothing—and, frankly, as far as I can judge, cares less—about large amounts of administrative justice that relates to local authorities, including, in education, school admissions and exclusion appeals. Many people may regard this as trivial but it also includes the whole area of decriminalised car parking. These are things that affect citizens. They have nothing to do with the Ministry of Justice but they amount to important areas of administrative justice.

I made the point in my earlier speech—I will not repeat it in extenso—that the terms of reference of the Civil Justice Council are, in effect, identical to those of Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council. I will make a few further points before I conclude. Notwithstanding the disappearance of the CJC from Schedule 7 to the Bill, the Government have already cut its secretariat and merged it with that of the Family Justice Council. In respect of the various procedure rule committees, including tribunals, all of which were in Schedule 7, the Government have already put all the secretariats into the same team. They argue that this makes better use of resources. It probably does. However, my amendments simply go with that flow. They create the possibility of what I regard as rational alternatives to abolition, but they do not prevent the Government going for abolition if that is what they continue to want to do. Even if I cannot claim a reward for good behaviour, I can claim a response to rationality, reasonableness and a powerful argument.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My noble friend bemoaned the fact that the judges had all fled, but the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, is still there.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

I apologise to both my noble and learned friend and the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan. I had in mind those who contributed to an earlier debate. If they all now chip in to support me, I shall give them brownie points as well. My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay might help, too. I beg to move.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Mackay of Clashfern and Lord Newton of Braintree

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

Perhaps I may just indicate briefly that, although I said slightly flippantly that I had not had a chance to look at all the other amendments, I had a glance through them. I had some of the same reservations about the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, has just adumbrated. The two that I found myself most drawn to were that you cannot have an omnibus order but must deal with things one by one, which seems well worth considering, and this business about hybridity. If there was manifestly something that picked out an individual interest and treated it differently from other interests—if I might do my non-lawyer’s translation of the hybridity problem—that would be a real question to be considered in certain circumstances. I hope that my noble friend will at least be able to reflect on these points.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

On the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, there is a question of a chilling factor in relation to bodies or organisations once they are named in a Bill. There is something to be said for having a closure in respect of bodies named now but also, if we get the Bill through in a satisfactory way, for it being a model for future reviews of these public bodies. One difficulty has been to provide a definition of what is meant by a public body. If the Bill passes into law as a sound piece of review legislation then, after, for example, the end of this Parliament and the beginning of the next one, there is a good deal to be said for the next Government coming forward with a list of bodies that would be suggested as amendments to this Bill, which would then possibly be subject to review under the powers that we have stipulated in the Bill.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Mackay of Clashfern and Lord Newton of Braintree

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot claim, like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, not to have taken part recently in proceedings on this Bill, because I have been a persistent defender of my Front Bench, nor do I intend to stop being so today.

However, I want to associate myself in two respects with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. First, I think that the Bill leaves—to put it mildly—a lot to be desired. Secondly, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, is to be congratulated on the way he has dealt with this poisoned chalice. I am glad to see that, if I have read the runes aright, the person speaking to the proposals today will be a Minister from the Ministry of Justice, which is where the proposals originated from and where any blame for them, if blame is justified, should lie.

By way of other brief preliminary, I should say that when I first saw the schedule of headline decisions that was published in early October—this picks up a point made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Lester—I could find no intellectual coherence at all in the Ministry of Justice’s proposals, which seemed to be piecemeal suggestions with no connection between them whatever. I hope, therefore, that at least we may have some coherent explanation about the pattern of these proposals and decisions for procedure rule committees, justice councils and other bodies, including CAFCASS, that are scattered about, most of which are now to be withdrawn from Schedule 7 by the amendments that have been helpfully tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach.

However—I do not know whether the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, has spotted this—unless my eyes have deceived me the Civil Justice Council will potentially remain on the list of bodies in Schedule 7. If I have that wrong, I would be glad to be told. That links with my own frequently expressed concern about the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council—in which I have declared an historical interest—which has been separated out and put down for the chop in Schedule 1. There is no intellectual coherence at all to the proposals. I would like to hear some coherence this afternoon.

I will make three other points. First, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked some good questions. My answers might not necessarily be the same as his in all cases, but those questions need answering. Secondly, I share almost completely the doubts of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. We are getting rid of too much independent outside inspection or oversight of bodies and are being told, in effect, that the Ministry of Justice can take care of itself and does not want these bodies breathing down its neck. That does not correspond with my views about how government in this kind of society should work or how it works best. Thirdly, I echo the concerns expressed by other noble Lords about the way in which the proposals have been handled. I reiterate what I said at the beginning because, as a House, we need some reassurance that, frankly, the Government know what they are doing.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, we have to keep it in mind that, at this stage, the Bill seeks to confer powers and does not provide the final decision on any of these matters. I respectfully agree with my noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill that Amendment 175 needs to be taken into account in this connection. From the point of view of propriety in this House, one considers the Bill on the basis that Amendment 175 has been accepted. Therefore, from my point of view, we approach the Bill at this stage following a decision by this House that has accepted that amendment—an extremely important amendment—which very much restricts the powers that the Bill provides.

In connection with reviewing the work of these quangos, as they have been called, the position has to be that, if such a review is to take place on a fairly large scale, there is a need for an all-embracing Bill that provides the powers, with the detailed consideration following at a later stage of whether, and how, it is appropriate to exercise those powers in any particular case. For example, Schedule 1 provides a power to amalgamate or hand over a body’s power, principally to another body.