Crime and Policing Bill

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Thursday 16th April 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I feel as though I have entered into a slightly surreal moment there, but I thank noble Lords for that clarification. I speak very briefly in support of what the noble Lord, Lord Walney, is trying to do—having opposed it at an earlier stage, which is why I thought it was important to speak. The comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Walney, and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, were very helpful in outlining what we are confronting and what we face at the present time.

I just raise some queries for the Minister to help me understand. One point that seems to have been made is that, if the proposal from the noble Lord, Lord Walney, were accepted, it would mean raising the threshold for proscribing an organisation. That did not make any sense to me because I would hope that, as legislators, we could make the finer distinctions between thresholds. We need some nuance here; otherwise, I fear that we will use a sledgehammer to crack a nut, which is what I fear has happened in relation to Palestine Action, potentially.

The notion of an extreme criminal protest group is a new phenomenon and therefore one that requires new thinking. The intimidation and criminal damage are not spontaneous; they are organised by organisations that proclaim that they are organisations. That needs to be tackled but they are not terrorist organisations. The point about supporting Palestine Action, which I thought the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, explained very well in terms of holding up a sign, is that we do not want to be soft on who is proscribed, but we have to be careful that we do not undermine what is meant by terrorism by turning to those people who are holding up the sign and treating them as though they are terrorists. That does not help anybody. I have spoken to a lot of young people and I have found that they are now cynical about the label “terrorist” precisely because of those people who are being arrested under an anti-terrorist proscription for holding up a sign. I cannot see that that helps. In the meantime, it does not make any sense for that to be the case, while the IRGC is still not proscribed. That seems completely contradictory.

The damage that this is doing is immense. The insurance example was given by the noble Lord, Lord Walney, but I know that people from Gail’s coffee shops have been specifically targeted. I was told by some young people that if you go to Gail’s, they have got it in for you—they are going to draw a map of Gail’s coffee shops. What has happened here is quite serious. This is very different from going out on a protest in support of Palestine or whatever else. We have to acknowledge that there is a new world with new problems and new legislation is needed.

Just finally, I commend the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, for her amendment. I am not sure entirely what I think about it but, importantly, she drew our attention to the lessons of Southport and the fact that, whatever happens—and as the Minister rightly said yesterday—the Government need to be given time to read the inquiry’s report and decide what to do. I hope that some of the points that the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, raised, particularly in relation to how youth diversion orders will be used and the need for different agencies to talk to each other, were very powerful and important. Her comments could at the very least feed into the Government’s discussions in relation to not just learning lessons from Southport but preventing it happening again.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, I entirely accept the point made by the noble Lord on the Woolsack about the inadequacy of an apology for late arrival in the Chamber, and I am bound to say it is not something I have ever had to make before, but I was late into the Chamber today and I apologise to the House, after others, that I was late for the start of this group. I will speak briefly, if the House permits. The Motion from the noble Lord, Lord Walney, to permit designation—

[Captain of the King’s Bodyguard of the Yeomen of the Guard and Deputy Chief Whip (Baroness Wheeler) (Lab)]

I stress that the Deputy Speaker made it clear that people who arrive late for the debate are not allowed to speak. I think it is difficult for the noble Lord, having heard the explanation and the discussion, to stand up and speak. I am sorry.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

We are a self-governing House. If it is the will of the House that the noble Lord, Lord Marks, speak briefly from the Front Bench, I suggest that we should hear him.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, I hope I will be permitted to speak briefly. I have followed the arguments on all these matters throughout these proceedings.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (CB)]

My Lords, my understanding of the Companion is that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is correct in what he said: if it wishes, the House can set aside the Companion and hear from a noble Lord, but in that case a Motion has to be put and voted upon.

[Lord Walney (CB)]

My Lords, I do not know whether this is helpful in any way—probably not—but as the proposer of the Motion, I really would appreciate hearing what the noble Lord on the Front Bench has to say on it.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, on that basis, unless I am stopped, I will speak briefly.

On the first Motion I was going to address, that of the noble Lord, Lord Walney, we have a great deal of sympathy for his proposal. Indeed, we would go so far as to say that it seems like a good idea. Its principal appeal is that it would permit a step falling short of proscription of an organisation, which would not involve anyone peacefully expressing support for that organisation at a demonstration or a protest being arrested, charged and possibly convicted of an offence under the Terrorism Act. In that, I fully agree with the points made by the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley.

I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Walney, does not intend to press his Motion to a vote, and we on these Benches think he is right in that because our reservations remain. We abstained on Report, and our principal reason for doing so was that the amendment leaves in place the present law on proscription and does not oblige the Government to make a designation of a group as an extreme criminal protest group where the existing threshold for proscription is met, so we would be left with the position that the Government would have two alternative designations as options: one with consequences that we consider to be undesirable, far too severe and damaging; and the other with far less serious consequences. We think that risks introducing an element of muddle and a lack of clarity into this very difficult but important area of the law. It is important for civil liberties and the rights of the citizen, and important for the control of terrorism and of public criminal behaviour more generally.

As the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, mentioned, we await the decision of the Court of Appeal and any possible appeal to the Supreme Court on the proscription of Palestine Action, and we also await the review of public order law by the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of River Glaven. We are not persuaded that it would be sensible now to introduce a compromise that would address a very real difficulty with the Terrorism Act as it stands but would leave the law uncertain. It is better by far, we suggest, to wait and trust that a more comprehensive and credible solution to the difficulties presented by the present law can be found that does not involve leaving the law unamended and available on proscription alongside an alternative system introduced as a partial answer only to the weaknesses of the law as it stands. We applaud the noble Lord, Lord Walney, for the work he has done on this and we think he has a sensible way forward, but it needs further work and we agree that it should not be pressed at this stage.

On Motion S1, I have nothing to add to what was said by my noble friend Lady Doocey, except that these Benches are fully behind everything she said in approving of her Motion.