Children’s Hearings (Scotland) Act 2011 (Consequential and Transitional Provisions and Savings) Order 2013

Debate between Lord McAvoy and Earl of Mar and Kellie

Tuesday 23rd April 2013 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Mar and Kellie]

My Lords, my intervention will be largely based on reminiscence. In 1968, when the children’s hearings were set up as part of the Social Work (Scotland) Act, I was a diploma in social work student in Edinburgh and I recall the senior civil servant in charge of the Bill coming to speak to us. I suppose that I have spent the subsequent 45 years watching the development of the children’s panel system, which is characterised by being much admired but hardly ever replicated. I certainly believe that the welfare approach is the right approach and that the children’s hearings are more likely to find a suitable conclusion to, or development of, the person’s situation. I think that we in Scotland were right to abandon the juvenile court approach that was extant before 1968.

I fully concur with my noble friend that this legislation is the inevitable result of devolved legislation. It would be entirely wrong for this Parliament not to pass this legislation. Families clearly have the opportunity to go and live wherever they wish. Indeed, sometimes things go wrong when people are on holiday in Scotland. This order certainly has my support; it comes from a good, and unfortunately a rare, example of this Parliament legislating uniquely for Scotland. That was very good and it does not happen very often. It was certainly a Government who had popular support in Scotland, and it will be interesting to see what the future holds in this respect. I certainly give this order a very fair wind.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I totally agree that this is a consequence of the devolution brought about by the Labour Government and that these are natural extensions of it. Before I make my few remarks, I thank the Minister for the helpful communication that he sent me and the offer of assistance. It was much appreciated and I respect him and his staff for that.

There are a few things. It may be that I am nitpicking— I hope not—but my interest was aroused by looking at paragraphs of the order and thinking about how they will be practically implemented. Paragraph 4.9 of the Explanatory Memorandum says:

“A children’s hearing or a sheriff may consider that it is in the best interests of a child to stay with a particular person. If that child then absconds from the particular person, for whatever reason, to a place in England, Wales or Northern Ireland, article 9 of this Order allows a constable in any of those jurisdictions to arrest the child without a warrant and take them back to the person”.

I wonder if there are any practical examples, without names of course, where that has happened. What is the justification? That is quite a lot of power being invested in a police officer, and I wonder what the track record is of any of these things happening. In addition, it seems quite a strong measure and I wonder whether there is any authority in existence that reviews a case. Is it kept within the police or within the social work department? Because everyone should be accountable, it certainly might be interesting or useful to see whether there is any review of any cases like that which throw up any problems with it.

I move on to paragraph 4.10, on offences related to absconding. It says:

“A children’s hearing or a sheriff may consider it to be in the best interests of a child to require them to be kept in a particular place or with a particular person”.

Does a child have any representation at that hearing? Who represents the interests of the child? If there is anything that a child is concerned about or is affecting them but is not known to the authorities, what sort of representation does a child get from the care system in that situation?

Moving on to paragraph 4.12:

“This Order prohibits the publication of certain information about proceedings at a children’s hearing or court proceedings under the 2011 Act if it is intended that publication will, or is likely to, identify the child, the child’s address, or the school which the child attends”.

Can we get some clarification of the word “publication”? Recent events show how something can go “viral” on the internet. Would the publication of a child’s name on the internet be a breach of this? Has that been envisaged, or was this framed and implemented at a time when there was no such thing as the internet? It would be interesting to see whether internet abuse would be covered by this and whether action could be taken, no matter how difficult it can be.

Paragraph 4.13 is entitled:

“Transfer of children from Scotland to England, Wales and Northern Ireland: Effect of compulsory supervision order”.

Quite rightly, throughout the order there is reference to the four home countries. Is there any joint body or liaison on this between the countries, or between any two countries involved in a particular case or incident? We all know how bureaucracy can be, and if there is no scrutiny and transparency things can go wrong. Again, paragraph 4.19, which is entitled:

“Child placed in secure accommodation: decision of the head of unit”,

says:

“Under the 2011 Act, a children’s hearing may, in conjunction with a relevant order or warrant, make a secure accommodation authorisation (SAA) which could specify that the child resides at a residential establishment in England, Wales or Northern Ireland. Under the 2011 Act, the Chief Social Officer (CSWO) must then make a decision as to whether or not to implement the SAA”.

Again, that seems like an awful lot of authority and responsibility to be given to one person. Are there any methods of scrutinising such decisions, or are they reviewed by the chief social worker? I ask this because—and I am not attacking social workers—no one is perfect, and it is all about scrutiny and accountability.

I have raised a number of questions, and the Minister may not be able to answer them. I find no reasons to doubt the order—in fact I support it—but I would like some clarification on these issues concerning transparency, scrutiny and accountability, bearing in mind we are dealing with children, who are not always able to represent themselves properly.

Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2013

Debate between Lord McAvoy and Earl of Mar and Kellie

Tuesday 26th February 2013 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Mar and Kellie]

My Lords, I am perfectly happy with what the Scottish Parliament has legislated for and I am happy with the order. I should like to record my surprise at the strategy of going for a national police force in Scotland. It certainly has been the tradition in Scotland and across the whole of Britain as an island that policing should be organised locally. At home, I have maps which point out where the Alloa borough police force was: it had a chief constable, a sergeant and 10 constables. The tradition in Britain has been one of local policing.

I also acknowledge that in another part of English-speaking Europe, in Ireland, that it always has had national policing. After 1922, the Royal Irish Constabulary was replaced by two national forces—the RUC and the Garda Siochana. I want to record the fact that I am surprised by the strategy which apparently we want to have in Scotland, while I am very happy about us having a strategy in Scotland.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, the Opposition support the measure, which as yet is another example of continuing devolution. I will not pay tribute to the Minister’s staff today because the last time I praised one of them, she mysteriously vanished and we have never seen her again. I do not know quite what he has done to her but I hope that she survives and makes a further appearance. The noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, has mentioned the Scottish tradition of policing but we all have to recognise devolution and its implications. There was a consultation process that was very supportive and there did not seem to be any dissenting voices to the proposal. As the Minister rightly says, this is necessary after the 2012 Act. I cannot quite remember the context in which he mentioned torture, but I do not think that that has relevance on this.

There are comparisons with other nations and regions of the United Kingdom—we all understand the Northern Ireland one—but the Scottish Government have considerable powers and I can understand why there are reservations about having a national police force against a background of the police always being regionally organised. I was on the police and fire committee of Strathclyde regional council, which has a very good operation. The Minister mentioned that there were 14 abstentions in the Scottish Parliament—I presume that that was his own party, or did the Liberal Democrats vote against? I welcome the conversion and hope that we can have further co-operation like that.

Although the report is rightly subject to scrutiny and questioning, I want to develop a wee bit further the principle of disaffection. As a trade unionist, the word “disaffection” towards anything raises questions. It has been mentioned that some of the clarification that the Minister’s staff was able to pass on was on questions asked by the committee regarding who could be charged with disaffection. The initial reply seemed to indicate that only certain police could be charged with disaffection, but further clarification suggested that it could apply to a member of the public as well. Although I totally accept the Minister’s point that the Government do not envisage anyone being charged with this wrongly, unfairly, or whatever, he will know better than I do that legal history is full of people who have been prosecuted for offences for which at the time it was indicated they would not be prosecuted. So, I would like further clarification on disaffection because the police are different. It is acknowledged that they are not allowed to join trade unions. We have to have law and order and a legal system, so it is right that in case anybody tries to suborn or undermine the police in carrying out their duties, the defence should stay in.

I press the Minister to go a bit further in giving us assurances that no “innocent bystanders” who have had a pint too much on a Saturday night and preach treason—I have certainly done that myself a few times with pints of soda water and lime, I hasten to add—will be prosecuted. I seek assurances that ordinary members of the public, letting off steam—to use one of the expressions mentioned—will not be liberally prosecuted. I will leave it at that and hope that the Minister can give us some of those answers. That will reassure me.

Forestry Commissioners (Climate Change Functions) (Scotland) (Consequential Modifications) Order 2012

Debate between Lord McAvoy and Earl of Mar and Kellie

Tuesday 23rd October 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord the Minister, who, as usual, has made his staff available for any advice and/or assistance. I have a slight regret about the noble and learned Lord’s ever so polite attitude because, being used to another place, I sometimes like a wee bit of aggression but I am still waiting for the Minister to show that quality.

Turning to the legislative context, where in Scotland did the push for this come from? Although I do not stay near a lot of forest, nevertheless it is quite a big issue in some parts of Scotland. Why was this initiative taken, and what was the background to it? The policy background mentions wind farms. That is not an uncontroversial issue. I was wondering how that came about.

I have always tended to suspect the reporting of consultations because it is usually in the eye of the beholder, who wants a particular result. What is the current position on the consultation? Is it completely finished or are there still ramifications because people are making complaints or expressing their support? Is it still an issue? In addition, it is stated that a number of the concerns that were expressed have been addressed. Does the Minister know the specific issues that were identified and then responded to? Can he give an indication of how the consultation was handled? Was it just an exercise from on high or was there a definite consultation?

Paragraph 10 of the Explanatory Memorandum is headed “Impact” and states:

“This instrument has no impact of a regulatory nature”,

and goes on to say that the,

“impact on the public sector is insignificant”.

The one thing missing from that is public opinion. If it was insignificant, that is fine, but if there was a reaction, it would be a crucial factor. I would like to know if there were any expressions of public opinion. Is that the reason why a full impact assessment was not produced?

Although paragraph 12 states that the:

“Forestry Commission Scotland publishes an Annual Report and Accounts which is laid before the Scottish Parliament”,

is that the scope of the accountability? I know about devolution, but is there any further scope for the Westminster Government to be consulted? In short, is the whole issue of accountability now devolved to the Scottish Parliament? Obviously this is a comparatively minor arrangement, but never the less it is right to ask questions here in your Lordships’ Chamber and thus subject the order to a bit of gentle scrutiny.

[The Earl of Mar and Kellie]

My Lords, speaking as a backwoodsman, I approve of giving explicit powers to one of the largest landowners in Scotland and thereby removing all the Forestry Commission land from the renewables area. I certainly approve of the widening of the geographic scope for renewables, especially as it takes the pressure off other areas that may be more beautiful and which are worth retaining in that context. The order considerably widens the already broad remit of the Forestry Commission, which is now far wider than its remit in 1919, which was to produce timber. The commission will now get involved with leisure, recreation, health, landscape management, footpaths, cycle paths, biodiversity, wood fuel and still, indeed, the production of timber. I support all forms of renewable energy, and especially hydro. I am pleased to see that two hydro schemes have already been identified. I would encourage the commissioners to have another look at small-scale hydro projects on the hill burns. I also suspect that they are bound to put up some wind turbines, or allow a partner to put them up.

My final point is particularly related to that. Once a site has been established, it is grid-connected pretty much for all time. It is hoped that the generating technology may well improve and something other than wind farms will come to take their place. The important point is that the sites themselves are grid-connected.