Disabled Persons’ Parking Badges (Scotland) Act 2014 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2016

Debate between Lord McAvoy and Lord Keen of Elie

Monday 14th March 2016 Grand Committee

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the draft order laid before the House on 22 February 2016 now be considered. The statutory instrument before us is made under Section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998 and in consequence of the Disabled Persons’ Parking Badges (Scotland) Act 2014, which I shall refer to as the 2014 Act and which makes provision about badges for display on motor vehicles used by disabled persons. These are commonly referred to as blue badges.

One of the main aims of the 2014 Act is to help tackle blue badge misuse by providing additional powers to local authorities and the police to enforce the blue badge scheme in Scotland. The 2014 Act strengthens enforcement powers, including the ability to cancel or confiscate a badge in certain circumstances, and provides for security features of the blue badge format to be approved administratively by the Scottish Ministers. While eligibility for badges, scheme administration and enforcement measures vary between Scotland, England and Wales, there is overall agreement between each of the Administrations and their respective local authorities to work together on the common parts of the blue badge scheme. This has seen the creation of a shared database, used by local authorities for the production of badges, which allows local authorities to enforce the scheme across Great Britain.

The Disabled Persons’ Parking Badges (Scotland) Act 2014 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2016, which I shall refer to as the draft Section 104 order, will ensure consistency throughout Great Britain with regard to the validity of blue badges issued in Scotland and give full effect to the 2014 Act. This will produce certain practical results so that, for example, a badge issued by a local authority in Scotland will, for the purposes of the law in England and Wales, be in valid form if it meets the new requirements being provided for in Section 1 of the Act. This will also ensure that enforcement officers are able to confiscate badges which are being misused and have been cancelled by a local authority in another area of Great Britain.

I will now seek to set out for the Committee what the order seeks to achieve and why it is felt to be an appropriate and sensible use of the powers under the Scotland Act 1998. Section 104 of the 1998 Act provides for subordinate legislation to be made by the UK Government which contains provisions that are necessary or expedient in consequence of any provision made by, or under, an Act of the Scottish Parliament. In this case, provision is required in consequence of provision made by the 2014 Act, which received Royal Assent on 24 September 2014.

The order extends to the law of England and Wales the effect of certain amendments made in Scots law by the 2014 Act. The amendments in question are amendments to Section 21 of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970, which provides for disabled people and their carers to be issued with badges entitling them to certain parking concessions. Section 1 of the 2014 Act changes the rules about the form that a badge issued in Scotland must take if it is to be recognised as a valid badge. Badges issued in Scotland are recognised in England and Wales. Article 3 of the order therefore reproduces in the law of England and Wales the effect of Section 1 of the 2014 Act, so that on both sides of the Scottish-English border the same rules will apply for the purpose of determining whether a badge issued in Scotland is in valid form. I should add that the same applies in respect of Wales.

By virtue of Section 2 of the 2014 Act, Scottish local authorities are able to cancel badges which they have issued in certain circumstances. A badge which has been cancelled by the Scottish local authority that issued it should not be recognised as a valid badge in England and Wales. Accordingly, Article 3(3) of the order extends the effect of Section 2 of the 2014 Act so that the cancellation of a badge by a Scottish local authority is effective in the law of England and Wales.

Article 4 of the order fixes a cross-reference in subsection (8C) of Section 21 of the 1970 Act. That subsection glosses references to local authorities elsewhere in Section 21 so that they fall to be read as including the Secretary of State. The gloss is stated not to apply in relation to specified subsections. One of the subsections specified is subsection (4BB) which, in the law of England and Wales, was inserted by Section 94 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 and defines the expression “enforcement officer”. This is the subsection (4BB) to which subsection (8C) is intended to refer. As a matter of Scots law, however, a different subsection (4BB) was inserted by Section 73 of the Transport (Scotland) Act 2001. It does not define the expression “enforcement officer” for the purposes of Scots law. Instead, the Scottish definition of “enforcement officer” is to be found in the version of subsection (8A) inserted by Section 5(4) of the 2014 Act. Article 4 of the order amends subsection (8A) so that it does not gloss the reference to a local authority which appears in the definition of “enforcement officer” in both the law of Scotland and of England and Wales.

The need for and content of the draft Section 104 order has been agreed between the United Kingdom and Scottish Governments. The Department for Transport, which has responsibility for the legislation which this order affects, has been consulted throughout the drafting of the order. All provisions contained in this order have the approval of the Department for Transport and of the Scottish Government.

The statutory instrument before the Committee demonstrates this Government’s continued commitment to working with the Scottish Government to make the devolution settlement work. I hope that your Lordships agree that the order is an appropriate and sensible use of the powers in the Scotland Act 1998, and in particular of Section 104. I commend the order to the Committee.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen of Elie. He showed off his legal skills in presenting the order. I think that I got left behind at the fifth subsection of the seventh Act that he mentioned, but I think that I managed to catch up. If I were a suspicious person, I would think that he was trying to lead me up the highways and byways, but I have studied this order carefully and I do not think that even he is up to mischief with it.

As the Minister has explained, the Scottish Parliament passed a Disabled Persons’ Parking Badges (Scotland) Act and the order will ensure that there is consistency across Great Britain for the badges issued in Scotland. It will mean that the badges issued by Scottish local authorities are recognised in England and Wales. We supported the objectives of the Act when it went through the Holyrood Parliament and we support this measure today. We are committed to making towns and cities more accessible for the disabled in Scotland and more widely, as was shown recently by our amendment in relation to parking on pavements made to the current Scotland Bill. We know that this issue causes real problems for those with disabilities. We again record our gratitude to the Government for accepting our argument and bringing forward the changes necessary to ensure that the Scottish Parliament can act on this issue.

This order tries to establish consistency throughout the three countries. The noble and learned Lord mentioned that, on the common parts of the legislation, the three countries were working together. Are there any differing parts of the legislation left? To get consistency would need careful wording to make sure that there are no discrepancies or loopholes left.

Paragraph 8.6 of the Explanatory Memorandum points to the Scottish Government’s engagement with multiagency groups,

“to bring forward new and focussed ways to educate badge holders”.

My colleagues in the Scottish Parliament have raised this issue and I will ask the Minister about it today. Do the UK Government intend to carry out the same multiagency work and will they be issuing guidance to local authorities in England and Wales about this order?

There is nothing minor about legislation affecting people in the disabled community, and this order did not have any real public consultation. I wonder if the assumption there was that it had broad support; let me hasten to add that it would be a reasonable assumption. On the other hand, it is known that the Great British public, and the Scottish public, can always offer up something. Can the Minister say who was consulted by the Department for Transport and what advice they offered? Perhaps the Minister would consider committing to placing a copy of the evidence in both Libraries.

However, in the great scheme of things these are minor quibbles. We support the order, but I would be grateful if the noble and learned Lord could address some of my specific points. If there is anything new there that has not been covered, it would of course be acceptable to receive that in writing.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for his observations with regard to the order.

As regards the commonality of the scheme, the only differences which would potentially exist would be on entitlement to badges, which is a matter for each jurisdiction to determine, and the form of the badges themselves, which may differ. What the order will ensure, by way of the 2014 Act, is the enforceability of orders made with respect to those badges. That is what I have to say on commonality.

On the matter of consultation and guidance, I am advised that the UK and Scottish Governments worked closely together with regard to the provisions in the order. It is intended that the department—well, something is intended. Perhaps the noble Lord would allow me a moment.

I am advised that steps will be taken to ensure that the Department for Communities and Local Government is properly sighted on the order so that it may then make an appropriate decision as to whether guidance should be issued. I apologise for the delay on that point.

I am also advised that, as with all Section 104 orders, relevant departments and Ministers were consulted and gave their consent to the making of the order. I do not have further detail as to what was said by or on behalf of the Department for Transport, but perhaps I can arrange to write on that point.

Unless there is any further point that I have not covered, I will leave the matter there.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord McAvoy and Lord Keen of Elie

Wednesday 24th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, for the removal of any doubt, I do not support any amendments in this group. But I am pleased to be given the chance to try again to pronounce the name of the noble Lord, Lord Louth of Norton—I have done it again—the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, because he is a profound constitutional expert and he has my total admiration and respect, and I apologise for the mix-up.

The original draft of Clause 1 conveyed the permanency of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government as institutions but our amendments put their permanency beyond any doubt and put the decision of whether they should be permanent in the hands of the Scottish people. We do not want any change to this aspect of the Bill. It is with some trepidation that I enter this debate, with so many constitutional experts, lawyers and esteemed legal people, but there we are; I might bring the perspective of an ordinary Scottish person without having all those grand titles—which are all deserved, I hasten to add.

I do not think we should spend too long on this aspect of the Bill. We support the Scottish people having the final say on any of these matters. Without going too much into the history of things, in 1707 Scotland entered the United Kingdom as a full country. It did not sacrifice totally its right to have its own say. We entered as an equal partner. I think we have played our part, pro rata, on an equal basis. I believe strongly that that should be the case. The sovereignty of the Scottish people should be recognised. It is not a coincidence that one of our monarchs in Scotland, Mary, Queen of Scots, was not known as the Queen of Scotland. Of course, her final legacy was that every monarch of Scotland and the United Kingdom since her death has been her direct descendant. That is totally in tune with the Scottish people. The Scottish people should have the say. I am sorry to say it but particularly the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, to take everything away from the Scottish people is just not acceptable or realistic. Realpolitik has been mentioned and that is absolutely right.

I do not want to feed the flames but I say to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that he could have been a bit more careful with his words, bearing in mind the history of Northern Ireland. My party and I—and, I believe, the Government—are not feeding any flames. I believe in the merits of what we have here, not just as expediency or something passed down from on high. I believe firmly in it and if any of these amendments are pressed, we will be voting against them.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, perhaps I may begin with a material concession. When the noble Lord, Lord Empey, referred to a capable Minister on the Front Bench he was clearly referring to my noble friend Lord Dunlop.

I thank noble Lords for their careful and detailed consideration of Clause 1, which expresses in law the understood position that the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government are a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements. I will endeavour to respond to each of the points made and, in doing so, I thought that it would be helpful to reflect on the adjustments made to this clause during the Bill’s passage through Parliament.

The Smith commission said that the United Kingdom’s legislation,

“will state that the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government are permanent institutions”.

In the draft legislation which the Government published in January 2015, the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government were recognised as permanent parts of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements. At that stage, the clause did not contain a provision on a referendum. This drafting was retained when the Bill was introduced to Parliament in May 2015. Detailed feedback was then received on the clause during the Bill’s passage through the other place and from others such as the Scottish Parliament’s Devolution (Further Powers) Committee. The Government reflected carefully on this feedback and on 18 September, the Prime Minister announced the Government’s intention to include a referendum provision in the clause to strengthen the provision and underline our commitment to the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government. Following refinement of the drafting, the clause as it now appears was inserted into the Bill on Report in the other place.

I pause to observe in response to the observations of the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, that I am not aware of any understanding between the United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Government to the effect that no amendment will be allowed to the provisions of Clause 1 or to any other part of the Bill. The clause was also subject to substantial debate during our Committee in December.

I turn to Amendment 2, tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, and the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth. This amendment considers the specific wording of subsection (3) of the new section in Clause 1. Following our deliberations in Committee we have reflected carefully on this amendment, which I believe seeks to clarify details of the operation of such a referendum. None the less, our view remains that the current wording of the clause delivers the outcome needed effectively, as it reflects that in 2014 the people of Scotland voted to remain in the United Kingdom and that that would mean a commitment to two Parliaments. New subsection (3) ensures that if the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government were ever to be abolished, which of course is a scenario that no one is envisaging, the people of Scotland would need to vote in a referendum to that effect.

The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, spoke to Amendment 3, which would replace the requirement for a decision of the people of Scotland in a referendum with a requirement for a two-thirds majority in a vote of the House of Commons, in which 75% of Scottish Members of Parliament voted in favour. I am grateful to the noble Lord for the points he has made and recognise his desire to underline the centrality of this Parliament in determining the constitutional arrangements of the United Kingdom. However, it remains our view that it is right to include provision for a referendum of the people of Scotland in the clause to strengthen the political statement, and to underline the commitment of this Parliament and this Government to the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

The referendum provision rightly reflects the importance of the people of Scotland in determining Scotland’s constitutional future. In the referendum in 1997, the people of Scotland overwhelmingly supported the creation of a Scottish Parliament. In the independence referendum in 2014, they reaffirmed that they wanted to have two Parliaments by voting to remain within the United Kingdom.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord McAvoy and Lord Keen of Elie

Tuesday 8th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

No, and I am sorry if the noble Lord took that the wrong way. However, I spend my life in Scotland, week in, week out. I listen to people there and am heavily involved in community organisations. I am not trying to devalue the noble Lord’s point of view but I can speak only from my experience. There is a suspicion there—justified or not—about Westminster trying to lay down the law. I know I tempt fate saying that in front of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, but there we go. We are suspected of laying down the law in a popular way, not in a legal way—once again, there are too many lawyers. We are talking about how this would be seen as being dictated to by Westminster and interference in the mandate. The Smith commission had the agreement and we are pushing that forward. We would be interested in supporting the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, and I look forward to an interesting night.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

First, I thank all noble Lords and the right reverend Prelate for their informative submissions, observations and comments, with regard to both Clause 1 and the proposed amendments to it. I begin by making a number of general observations. First, no one on the Government Benches is in any doubt about the supremacy and sovereignty of the United Kingdom Parliament. In that regard, I take issue with some of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis. Ultimately, it is for this Parliament to determine the constitutional arrangements of the United Kingdom.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, alluded to some observations he made in the case of AXA General Insurance and others in 2011. I recall those well. He may in turn recall that my client came second in that case. Reference was also made to some obiter dicta of the noble and learned Lord in the case of Jackson, to which we would not necessarily subscribe. However, they are there and are a helpful insight into the thinking of the court at that time with regard to the issue of sovereignty.

The purpose of this Bill is to implement the Smith commission agreement. To suggest that there is no mandate for that is, in my respectful submission, quite inaccurate. Each of the five political parties in Scotland went into the Smith commission and negotiated the terms of an agreement. The Government have undertaken to seek to implement that agreement. That is the purpose of this Bill.

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[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble and learned Lord for reminding me of the observations made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, in that context. At this time the Government consider that we have achieved the best possible wording for the purposes of new Section 63A(3) in Clause 1. I compliment the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, on his eyesight and his ability to read my notes at such a considerable distance. However, the position of the Government remains that we are satisfied that a relatively open provision in this context with regard to the people of Scotland voting in a referendum is the appropriate way forward.

[Lord McAvoy]

The Minister said a minute ago that the result of any referendum would not be implemented if the Bill were passed and became an Act. That is the reply that was given, and in the current atmosphere it will set lots of hares running. Would he care to clarify?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I would be pleased to clarify. We were speaking theoretically in the context of the supremacy and sovereignty of this Parliament. In the light of the referendum finding that the Scottish Parliament should be abolished, it would be necessary for legislation to be put forward. It would in theory be possible for that legislation to be defeated in this Parliament. That is all that I was saying. However, we are in the realms of extreme speculation here—or it appears to me that we are.

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[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, the Government in their wisdom accepted the Labour amendment in the other place to reflect the Bill as it is. We support that. We think that it was very wise of the Government to do so. It puts the permanency of these institutions beyond any doubt. We all know the law regarding ultimate sovereignty but nevertheless it would be foolish—I am repeating myself—to reject the symbolism of having that in the Bill, so for those reasons we oppose the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I begin by making the observation that, without commitment, of course we are listening and of course we reflect upon the terms of this debate. There can be no question about that. We are here for that very purpose. I do not accept the implication that somehow we have come here with our ears closed or our minds closed, because that is not the case. I say that without commitment.

In the context of this amendment, the words “recognised as” appeared in the original drafting of the clause. I cannot accept the observation of the noble Lord, Lord Lang, that by amending a clause of this kind we end up with second best. With great respect, that is to invert the whole process of Parliament. The object of amendment—of adjustment—is to achieve a better result, and that is what the Government believe was achieved by accepting the amendment put forward by the Labour Opposition in the other place.

I note—and with great respect adopt—the observation of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, that if you go down the route of “recognised as”, it opens up the question of recognised by whom, in what circumstances and why? That seems wholly unnecessary in the context of this form of declaratory provision within the clause. In these circumstances I invite the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, to withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, not to anyone’s surprise, we oppose the amendment. It was our amendment in the House of Commons that made it clear that it should be the Scottish people who determine the permanency of their Parliament. It is not a decision for the United Kingdom as a whole.

I believe firmly in the role of this House as a revising Chamber. Therefore, there is no question of having to have a mandate, to be elected or any other method of claiming to represent people. With respect to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, it has to be taken into account that he has no mandate for this type of quite dramatic intervention. There is not much of a cry in England, Wales and Northern Ireland for inclusion in such a referendum. It would also pose the additional point made by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that it would lack consistency and political reality to include the whole of the United Kingdom in a referendum in Northern Ireland, although I accept that there are unique circumstances in Northern Ireland.

I hope that I am not getting too repetitive, but it is my opinion, based on my experience of living and staying in Scotland—I have been in Scotland all my life—that there would be complete outrage if such an amendment were supported by this House. I ask colleagues to reject it.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to noble Lords. I reiterate that the purpose of the Bill is to implement the recommendations in the Smith commission agreement. I noticed that the noble Lord, Lord Smith, has already observed that the terms of the Bill do that. This provision is consistent with the spirit of the agreement. It is also with precedent, if I can put it in that context. The referendum in 1997 over the matter of devolution was a referendum of the people of Scotland. The referendum on independence in 2014 was a referendum of the Scottish people. It is considered appropriate that we should continue with that model. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, pointed out that the Northern Ireland Act 1998 proceeds in a similar vein. So it is consistent and appropriate that, for the purposes of this Bill, any such referendum—the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, himself acknowledges how extremely unlikely it is that that would even be contemplated —should be a referendum of the Scottish people. I therefore urge him to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, is it not the case that the sovereignty of the UK Parliament is already protected by Section 28 of the Scotland Act 1998, which provides that the UK Parliament can always legislate for Scotland?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I compliment the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, on his optimism. The position is clear: we have repeatedly stated, across this House, that the United Kingdom Parliament is a sovereign Parliament. The noble Lord decided to seek a declaratory statement of that. I submit that this is wholly unnecessary: it is beyond doubt that this Parliament is supreme and sovereign. This is restated by Section 28(7) of the Scotland Act 1998. The existing declaratory statements in Clause 1 are not in any sense misleading. They are an expression of a political reality and they are intended to declare that reality as clearly as possible, acknowledging all along the supremacy of this, the United Kingdom Parliament. The proposed amendment is wholly unnecessary and, if anything is misleading it is the necessity for it. I urge the noble Lord to withdraw it.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord McAvoy and Lord Keen of Elie

Tuesday 8th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Foulkes of Cumnock for bringing this forward. I cannot help but make the point that it is a pity that we are dealing with this at this time of night and that noble Lords are curtailing their contributions in this most significant period of the evening. Quite frankly, we have been treated to two or three hours of negativity and continual attacks on the Bill and the Ministers bringing forward the Bill, and it is refreshing to have an extremely positive contribution from my noble friend to address a problem—and there is a problem.

Saying that there is a one-party state is overstating it, but we miss the experience of having Scottish nationalist party Members in this House contributing to this debate. It is mirrored in some ways in the Scottish Parliament where the committee system was supposed to balance things. However, I understand that one party controls the committee chairs and members of committees. They are not operating as a check and balance on the Executive. That is to be regretted.

My noble friend Lord Foulkes has no great expectation —although you never know—of this amendment being incorporated into the Bill, but he has sparked a debate about a real issue that we need to address, which the people of Scotland, the Scottish nationalist party and the other Scottish political parties have to look at as well. I take the point from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, that this is probably not the Bill to do that in, but by moving the amendment my noble friend has raised the issue, highlighted it and received some very thoughtful contributions from noble Lords. They had elements of negativity, but they nevertheless addressed the problem. I will not mention anyone in particular who has been negative all night, but he knows who is.

My noble friend has done us all a service by bringing this forward. The details are in the amendment and noble Lords will understand the amount of work that has been put in by my noble friend in assembling it. It is a first-class amendment and we are not opposed to it. We congratulate our noble friend on bringing it forward and hope that it sparks a debate not just in this Chamber but with our Scottish National Party colleagues in Scotland so that they can turn their mind to this. That would be the real bonus to come from my noble friend’s contribution. If we can spark a debate in Scotland so that the situation is looked at, my noble friend will have done a commendable service. I therefore appeal to our colleagues in Scotland to give this proposal particular attention.

We can be proud of the example we set. Most of us here, although not all, are determined not to destroy the place by what could be called irresponsible behaviour. Most of us are committed to the positive side of this House and the revising job that it does. I would like to see something like that in Scotland and I hope that we can take our Scottish National Party colleagues along with us. I think that the people of Scotland would be better served by that. I close by again thanking my noble friend for his extremely thoughtful contribution.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

As the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, might appreciate, I am increasingly conscious that the robust scrutiny of this Chamber could be seen as an elegant example of how a second Chamber can operate. Be that as it may, the proposal he has put forward by way of his amendment is not a reflection of what was contained in the Smith commission agreement. The establishment of a second Chamber did not feature. However, as noble Lords will be aware, the noble Lord, Lord Smith, in his personal recommendations observed that the transfer of these substantial new powers would mean that the Scottish Parliament’s oversight of the Scottish Government would need to be strengthened. I recognise the noble Lord’s desire to see that the exercise of these substantial new powers should be properly and effectively scrutinised.

This Government fully endorse the recommendation made by the noble Lord, Lord Smith, that the Scottish Parliament’s oversight of the Scottish Government needs to be strengthened, but as the noble Lord set out, it is in the first instance the responsibility of the Presiding Officer and the Scottish Parliament to take forward this important work. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for his contribution to this debate and for putting before us what was noted by the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, to be a real issue. Nevertheless, I say on behalf of the Government that this is not the place for such an amendment. This is not a place to bring in such a proposal when it was not addressed in the Smith commission agreement, and I therefore invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Earl and congratulate him on his amendment. I will be relatively brief as well. We support much of what is suggested, other than proposed new paragraph (2)(d), as we do not believe that the “appropriateness” of devolution needs to be reviewed. We will be proposing similar arrangements with regard to the transfer of the welfare provisions, so the amendment is extremely useful.

I think the noble Earl would accept that such arrangements are founded on mutual respect and co-operation between the two Governments. We all have to be careful with the sensitivity of language but we cannot have it portrayed—I know the noble Earl has not done this—as Westminster talking down to Holyrood. But conducted in an atmosphere of co-operation, friendship and mutual respect, I think there can be a great service done to the Scottish people and the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Earl for putting forward this amendment. As your Lordships are aware, the matter of intergovernmental working was addressed by the noble Lord, Lord Smith, in his introduction to the Smith commission agreement, in which he emphasised its importance in achieving the aims of devolution.

A considerable degree of very positive co-operation between the Scottish and United Kingdom institutions takes place on a daily basis, from routine dialogue on matters such as planning for civil contingencies to supporting business and exports. It would be difficult to report on each and every one of these interactions. Nevertheless, it is important to recognise that they should be as transparent as possible.

Specific steps have been taken recently in encouraging more regular collaboration between the United Kingdom and Scottish Governments in areas of joint interest. One example of such work is the cross-Administration “Devolution and You” Civil Service capability campaign, which the Cabinet Secretary launched in June 2015. In addition, there is now the Joint Ministerial Working Group on Welfare, which was established to provide a forum for discussion and decision-making on implementation of the welfare-related aspects of the Smith commission agreement.

I also welcome the work of the Constitution Committee on behalf of this Chamber and note its recommendations regarding increased cross-parliamentary scrutiny of intergovernmental relations. This was also recommended by the Scottish Parliament’s Devolution (Further Powers) Committee. It will be important to see how Parliament responds to these recommendations. Furthermore, my noble friend Lord Dunlop set out during Second Reading details of how we are working with the three devolved Administrations to review intergovernmental arrangements and ensure effective working relationships with those Administrations.

There is a concern that a statutory duty to report on these interactions could prove burdensome and might prove unnecessary. However, we—the Government —are happy to take away and consider what the noble Earl has suggested, and explore how we may incorporate these suggestions into the work which is going on with regard to intergovernmental relations. I would be happy to discuss this with him. However, having regard to the present terms of the Bill and the comments that have been made, I invite my noble friend to withdraw this amendment.