Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Moore of Etchingham and Baroness Berridge

Friday 12th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moore of Etchingham (Non-Afl)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. As I said, I will come on to the amendment soon, but I want to emphasise this point because I think that it matters a lot in this debate and will matter in the coming weeks. A particularly virulent article in the Times, written by Nicholas Boles—he was, until recently, an informal adviser to the Prime Minister—put these arguments in a way that was quite inappropriate for the type of discussion on a conscience issue that we are having.

On prisoners, I want very much to pursue the point about autonomy, which is absolutely right. It goes to the heart of this Bill, because the Bill’s supporters are those who give precedence to autonomy over all other things. The people who are more questioning of the Bill do not necessarily do that—at least, they think that there are many qualifications to the right of autonomy.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, pointed out so eloquently, this issue very much applies to prisoners, who have a double loss of autonomy in prisons. First, their autonomy has been taken away from them by the decision of the state, as expressed in the quaint phrase “at His Majesty’s pleasure”; it is not “at the prisoner’s pleasure” but “at His Majesty’s pleasure”, which is an expression of the power of the state and the prisoner’s loss of autonomy. Secondly, prisoners lose autonomy in another way because of their vulnerability and the situation they are in.

The point I wish to add to this argument is to do with the Government, rather than the movers of the Bill, although it affects them, of course. In evidence to the Select Committee, the relevant Minister at the Ministry of Justice, Sarah Sackman, said that, as far as the Government are concerned:

“The policy choice that the option of a voluntary assisted death be extended to those in prison is just that. It is a policy choice on which the Government are neutral”.


I do not understand how the Government can be neutral on a matter that is entirely within their purview, and I would like to hear what the Minister has to say about that.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 30A and 119A in my name, which relate to children and young people who are under an EHCP. I offered to withdraw these two amendments in order to shorten proceedings; by putting that on the record, I will shorten the meeting offered by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, but not necessarily these proceedings.

I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Coffey for spotting a typo in Amendment 119A—ECHP instead of EHCP. Please may we not create any more quangos with that combination of letters?

The Select Committee heard from Dame Rachel de Souza, the Children’s Commissioner for England, about the basic policy reason behind some vulnerable adolescents and those with additional needs being under her jurisdiction until they are 25: they need the extra support to transition into adulthood. Amendment 30A would remove all young people under an EHCP from the Bill; Amendment 119A on this policy ground would mean them falling under the Act, but with additional conditions. Such an issue may be additional subject matter for the promised meeting. Would these be the right conditions, were we to accept Amendment 119A?

The Children’s Commissioner’s jurisdiction also covers anyone under the age of 25 who has ever been in care. She has a specific responsibility for children up to the age of 25 who have an EHCP. I note that, in law, it is not 18 for all purposes. You cannot adopt children until you are 21. So, at the moment, the Bill does not produce a cliff edge at the age of 18.

Some of the young people on EHCPs may lack capacity and are, therefore, outside the scope of the Bill. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins—she is no longer in her place—has often said, assessing the capacity of people with learning disabilities is a complex matter. However, many young people are on an EHCP because of other additional needs or considerable childhood traumas; they will have capacity and will, therefore, come under this Bill. It is again relevant to think of them at 18 years and one day old, and with a life-limiting condition. Sadly, due to the lack of the usual pre-legislative processes of consultation, a White Paper and scrutiny, we are without the data on these vulnerable groups showing how many in the EHCP or under High Court DoLS also have life-limiting conditions. That data would give us an idea as to the priority of conditions for different groups.

In the Select Committee, Ken Ross of the Down’s Syndrome Association stated that people with Down’s syndrome cannot always fully comprehend complex decisions and have very suggestible minds. This is why there are additional safeguards in the EHCP, but if they have capacity, they are under the Bill currently without any additional safeguards.

Again, due to the process of the Private Member’s Bill, it is not clear how this legislation sits with other legislation and safeguards. Has the Bill been considered by the Department for Education, which has responsibility for children under the 1989 Act? Has the noble and learned Lord met with those Ministers? For instance, just to give an array of possible problems, in many cases local authorities legally still have a role for those under an EHCP after the age of 18. How will that fit with the processes outlined for assisted dying? Will there be a clash of decision-making from the EHCP special educational needs panel and the TIA panel?

What legal authority does the local authority have on safeguarding grounds to intervene in the panel’s process for a young adult on an EHCP if it disagrees with the assessment by the panel that the young person is making the request for assisted dying due to peer pressure or, as Ken Ross suggested, an enhanced susceptibility to pressure from white coat syndrome for those with Down’s syndrome? Is it mandatory for the TIA panel to get information from the SEND panel? Can the SEND panel appeal the decision to grant assisted dying? It seems not, so the family and the local authority will be left with the expensive and difficult remedy of judicial review.

Has the noble and learned Lord considered the evidence from the British Association of Social Workers? It states that the panel needs the power to do its own safeguarding assessments, or the power to close a case a local authority is seized of under Section 42 of the Care Act 2014. Otherwise, assisted dying could be granted and there could still be an open safeguarding case at the local authority unless the panel has the power to investigate and close it. These issues would have been flagged on a government write-round or during proper pre-legislative scrutiny. I am disappointed at the lack of meetings so far, as we need a proper process to consider the position of many vulnerable 18 year-olds on the day after their 18th birthday.

Bearing in mind Amendment 22, which the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, mentioned, I wonder whether she, the noble and learned Lord or the Minister are aware of whether the policy decisions made for pregnant women in other jurisdictions are based on policy alone or on clinical evidence. If there is clinical evidence that drugs can promote and induce labour, is that why other jurisdictions have taken pregnant women out? That is relevant, because I have amendments later in the Bill about warning relatives of complications, especially if there is going to be a person under 18 present while assisted dying is being given.

Finally, on the points raised at the start of the proceedings by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, I did not have the benefit of listening to the “Today” programme, but we are dealing with so many groups of vulnerable people. That is because of the lack of pre-legislative steps that we usually have. Groups would have been consulted and there would have been a White Paper. I have been exchanging optimistic emails with the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, but for me personally it is an open question, bearing in mind the lack of pre-legislative scrutiny, whether the Private Member’s Bill process actually fix that.

I know that the noble and learned Baroness worked with the noble Baroness and that she is very fair-minded, but I have had cause to look at the evidence from the Jersey States Assembly, a small Parliament. It was drawn to our attention in the Select Committee by Alex Ruck Keene KC that some instructions went to 200 pages, so I asked the Library to do some research and the Jersey parliament’s process is gold-plated. Not only that, but its website is much easier to use than parliament.uk and one can look at the process and timetable from 2021. When the States Assembly approved what it was going to do, the Executive—the Minister for Health and Social Affairs—gave drafting instructions to parliamentary counsel. To write a piece of legislation fit for purpose, they ran to 201 pages. We say that we are the mother of Parliaments in the Commonwealth context, but that is the way to legislate. I keep open in my conscience whether this process can fix the problems with the Bill which are such that none of the royal colleges is currently supporting it.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill

Debate between Lord Moore of Etchingham and Baroness Berridge

Report stage
Wednesday 9th July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I support this amendment; I feel that it is only fair to the noble Lord, Lord Burns, who is smiling because I have lobbied him on this issue on most of the opportunities when I have bumped into him in the corridors.

Whatever might be said about the number of Peers who have been appointed—it is very difficult; you feel rather impolite once you have been accepted into your Lordships’ House—we have never, thankfully, had a situation where the constitutional convention has been busted that the Government have the largest group but not an overall majority in this House. All of us here I think are believers in the parliamentary democratic system, but, if we were to have people involved in politics and, perhaps, in power who did not agree with that unwritten convention, we would be in a situation where the Prime Minister of the day could, within a few weeks of coming into office, appoint hundreds of Peers, placing the House of Lords Appointments Commission—and, potentially, even the monarch—in an unusual situation. We would therefore have a situation where the Executive would be in charge, having, obviously, not only a majority in the Commons but a commanding majority in the Lords. Of course, we have never before had the situation of having a Prime Minister who does not feel bound by that convention.

[Lord Moore of Etchingham (Non-Afl)]

Can I ask the noble Baroness something? The most important reform that ever took place in the House of Lords was caused by the threat of the Liberal Government to create hundreds of Peers. They had that right and they knew that they had that right, and the King agreed that they had that right. Had they not had that right, they would not have been able to bring in the 1911 Act. Does the noble Baroness therefore think that nothing like that should ever be repeated?

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that, but we are now in the situation where we have the Parliament Act. I was just moving on to the point that any Prime Minister of the day could reform and make the situation a unicameral situation, but that would of course require the Parliament Act and would mean a delay of a couple of years. We all know how important it is to take your time in politics sometimes, particularly when you are doing constitutional change.

This is more analogous to the situation that happened in Hungary in 2010. Hungary set up its constitution with a President, obviously, but also with a unicameral situation, with a two-thirds supermajority needed to change the constitution. It never envisaged, of course, that one party would bust that majority, but it happened. Subsequently, the EU no longer fully regards Hungary as a democracy. It would be such a shame—I try not to use melodramatic language, but it would be a tragedy—if the Mother of Parliaments ended up in the situation of having what is described now in Hungary: you govern by law, so the Executive just bring their legislation to Parliament and rubber-stamp it.

I say this to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman: it really matters that we, as a Parliament—at a time when, for very sad reasons, we thankfully have primary legislation—might not be looking at the main thing that we need to ensure. So I fully support the noble Lord’s amendment.