House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill

Debate between Lord Moynihan and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Committee stage
Monday 3rd March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord—I always enjoy listening to his entertaining contributions—but we are discussing a specific amendment at the moment. He is making comments on things we will come to later in considering other amendments. This seems to be a Second Reading speech. I do not want to be discourteous, but I see that he has a lot of notes and I wonder whether he wants to address the amendment, rather than giving a wider speech.

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

I am doing precisely that by talking about the hereditary principle and the removal of the hereditaries. Both are central to what I am speaking about. I gave my experience from the point of view of a hereditary, and I am now addressing the key point about the Bill being very narrow with regard to the future of the hereditaries. My argument is simple and clear: it should be wider. My view is that by narrowing it as much as we have, it becomes a political numbers game Bill. I am much more in favour of looking at how best this House can fully scrutinise, shape and improve legislation for the Government of the day, and challenge them to think again when necessary.

The point has been made already that this House operates best through consensus, yet the much-heralded usual channels have regrettably become frayed and fractious of late. There must be a way for the leaders of the four main groupings in your Lordships’ House—the Government, the Opposition, the Liberal Democrats and, critically, the Cross-Benchers—to consider how the Government’s objective of numerical majority, for example, over His Majesty’s Opposition, with which I largely agree, can be achieved. For there is a better way to achieve the outcome that is sought in this Bill. There are many Peers, as has been mentioned, who have announced either their intention or willingness to retire, or who would do so if approached on the basis that if they remained, they would henceforth be required to participate actively in this House. The latter could be judged by criteria in a Bill which addressed minimum levels of attendance and contribution. This would also remove the sitting rights of those many life Peers who, at the time of their elevation, promised their respective leaders that they would be active in this Chamber and these Committee Rooms, but who all too soon became notable only by their absence.

So, it is possible to achieve the outcome by combining the end of the sitting rights of the hereditary peerage with the implementation of a decision to reduce the size of this House and still leave the Government with a majority over the Opposition. This solution, based on the principle of self-determination, is surely better than one which vests in the Prime Minister of the day the authority to approve each and every Member of this House, creating the worst of all worlds: a second Chamber without democratic legitimacy, built on short-term, present-day political patronage but shorn of the independence, the reputation and the authority that it currently enjoys. That is why I support this amendment.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Moynihan and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Monday 31st January 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness; her contribution was extremely helpful. Certainly, it was not the intention that the time of applying for a licence should be the only time when financial capability was assessed. The insertion somewhere in the wording of “continuous” would be extremely helpful, as is her point about access to funds via insurance. The contrast I was trying to draw was with the Government’s policy on the nuclear industry. Currently it is the Government’s policy that a nuclear power company would have to be responsible for all the costs of decommissioning for some time—indeed, for the foreseeable future. In our previous debate we talked about 100 years or so. It seemed that equal responsibility should be taken by oil companies. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her suggestions.

[Lord Moynihan]

My Lords, I was not going to intervene on this, but I have just watched, at some length, the follow-up proceedings in Congress on the first presidential commission report on the BP Deepwater Horizon disaster, which was published several weeks ago. Most of the cross-examination on this issue highlighted the fact that caution should be the order of the day in assessing the level of cover that an operator would require. Caution is needed because there is a massive difference between the majors and the independents. The representatives of the commission, when cross-examined in the last few days, highlighted the fact that they had not had the opportunity to discuss this issue, which is a valid and important one to raise. I welcome the fact that an amendment has been tabled so that we can consider it. However, the representatives had not had an opportunity to sit down with the insurance industry to look in detail at the exposure—the level of cover required—and the impact on the industry as a whole.

We in this country have a proud and, in my view, wise policy of encouraging independents to come on to licences alongside the majors to add further expertise and bring additional value to the table on safety, drilling expertise and well knowledge. I would be cautious about taking too much of a blanket approach to this at the moment—one which did not take into account the exposure that was being sought by the noble Baroness for different licence-holders and different companies on the same licence. The direction of travel in which she is heading is one that the industry will need to follow. This will inevitably be a major issue as the industry moves forward, both in the United States and elsewhere. It is a subject that will require detailed consideration between government, the industry and the insurers to come up with the best possible method of moving forward to ensure that, on the one hand, there is cover but, on the other, we do not end up with just a handful of majors and lose the independent sector. It has contributed so much to the development of the North Sea and has a commitment to safety that is as great as that of anybody else operating there. That is my only word of caution.

This is a highly complex area, which needs a good deal of further reflection, but I welcome the fact that the noble Baroness has brought this to the Committee. It is an important issue and she knows my interest in the subject. I hope the Minister responds equally positively about the importance of this issue and of continuing discussions between the Government, the insurance industry and the operators—and not just the operators but the drillers—to make sure that there is appropriate cover, but that cover is not required to the point at which we lose a significant section of the industry, which so far has contributed greatly to the development of the North Sea.