Grenfell Tower

Lord Newby Excerpts

Thursday 22nd June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating this very comprehensive Statement, with lots of information in there. She will understand that it also begs a number of questions, and I hope that she will be able to answer them today—but, if she is not, I shall be happy for her to write to me.

First, it is right that we recognise the almost unspeakable horror of the fire in which so many have lost lives, friends, family, their homes and all their possessions; it is a tragedy on an almost unimaginable scale. If you listen to those who are affected, it is clear that it is never going to leave them; it will stay with them for the rest of their lives. The noble Baroness is quite right to say that the support is not just for today or tomorrow—it is long-term support that we are talking about.

I also place on record our huge gratitude to the emergency services—the medical staff, police and, particularly, the fire and rescue services, which went above and beyond the call of duty. I understand from those who have seen and heard the recordings from the fire engines when they arrived at the fire, they could not believe what they were going to. They were saying, “How in the something or other are we ever going to get into that building to rescue people?”. Those were the comments that they were making as they arrived. There was no structural engineer on site at that point, so they had no way of knowing whether it was safe to go into that building or not—but they went in. Many years ago, I did some fire service training as a fire authority member, and I have done a mock-up wearing breathing apparatus. That was in safe conditions, but I know something of how terrifying it must be for those who arrive at such a scene, and the bravery of those men and women who attended the fire. No words can express how grateful we and others are to them.

The response from the local community and the public was almost overwhelming, such was the scale of the horror of what they witnessed. However, as the noble Baroness has said, the response from the local council was nothing short of appalling and a disaster. I pay tribute to the other London boroughs which do not have the wealth or resources or the financial reserves of Kensington and Chelsea but which went to the aid and assistance of people outside their borough to do what they could to help—and they seemed better able to provide some of the support that was needed. The noble Baroness made the point that the council was certainly not up to responding to residents’ needs.

I welcome the inquiry, which is a step forward. The noble Baroness is right to say that there should be an interim report—one hopes by the summer—but, as well as the other issues that it addresses, can it address the wider issues of accountability? The management of that block was outsourced to a private company, which does not seem—and this will be borne out by the inquiry—to have had any direct relationship with the residents so that the residents could force it to respond or have any accountability process. That should be looked at as part of the wider issues.

I note in the Queen’s Speech that the Government have taken up the proposal from my noble friend Lord Wills of a public advocate. It would seem that the quicker we can have somebody in place to advise those who want to play a role and be involved in the inquiry, the better. I hope that we can look at that ASAP.

Clearly, this is a fast-moving situation, with new information and details emerging all the time. I appreciate that government and local councils want to reassure people, but we can reassure people only if they are genuinely safe; people cannot be reassured unless the necessary checks have been undertaken and any changes have been made so that people are safe. Shortly after the Prime Minister gave her Statement to the House of Commons, we heard the alarming news that, when in the Statement today she mentioned that a “number” of high-rise tower blocks were affected, up to 600 in England alone could have combustible cladding installed. Can the noble Baroness confirm that the figure of around 600 is correct? If it is, when did that figure become known to the Government? What action are the Government taking? If there are 600 blocks of flats in England alone in that situation, the scale of the work to be done is just enormous. The Downing Street spokeswoman said earlier today that:

“Obviously nobody will be living in buildings that are unsafe. They will be rehoused if they need to be and landlords will be asked to provide alternative accommodation where that’s possible”.


If 600 blocks are affected, I am not sure that the checks can done as quickly as that. If 100 blocks can be checked today, it will still be quite a long time before all blocks are checked and any work is undertaken. If those people are to be rehoused, it will be more than a million people. There must be some contingency plans for the Government to work with local councils on that, because this clearly seems to be beyond the scale of most local authorities’ ability to cope. Can the noble Baroness confirm whether that figure is correct, when the Government knew and what action is being taken?

I have a couple of questions on resources for local authorities. This is clearly going to be an expensive business—rightly so—for local authorities to undertake properly, so are local authorities guaranteed the resources to carry out any necessary additional checks? What conversations or discussions have there been between central government and the private companies that have supplied and fitted such cladding on to high-rise blocks? There is an issue about whether all housing providers have been alerted by those companies that fitted such cladding. The inquiry is welcome, but the noble Baroness is right to say that we do not have to wait to take action. After the previous fire that we saw in 2009, I gather that the coroner’s recommendations were made in 2013 to the Department for Communities and Local Government about retrofitting sprinklers—those recommendations could be acted on now. We would be grateful if the noble Baroness could respond on that.

When the Prime Minister was asked in the House of Commons about whether the buildings were compliant with building regulations, she said that the police and fire services were investigating and would report in 24 hours. That is a reasonable response in terms of the buildings that we are talking about, but the legal position regarding that kind of cladding on high-rise buildings is not a matter for the fire and rescue service or the police to investigate; the Government must know whether or not the building regulations allow it. Can the noble Baroness respond immediately on that? I cannot see why we have to wait 24 hours for a statement from the fire and rescue services, because whether the building regulations do or do not allow it should be a matter of fact. In terms of this particular block, there were building regulations inspections. Were faults found during those inspections and, if they were, was action taken to remedy the faults? It is clear that there were complaints beforehand.

I have one final point: a Minister commented to me a while ago regarding deregulation that the Government’s policy was that you had to have three regulations out before you could bring another one in. We all know that society does not like to be overregulated—nobody wants unnecessary red tape—but that seems to not look at the value of regulation; it is a numerical chance exercise. Can the noble Baroness confirm whether that is the case? I would be delighted if it was not, but if that is still government policy, surely it should be reviewed. We should regard regulations on their merit, not on the number of regulations, which is completely irrelevant in terms of safety for society.

The Statement is comprehensive and welcome. As times goes on, there will be some challenging, difficult and perhaps uncomfortable truths to be faced about how society operates and how it treats poorer people, particularly with regard to housing. This is a disaster beyond anything we could have ever contemplated. If lessons are not learned from this, we will be doing the public an enormous disservice.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for repeating the extremely comprehensive Statement. I take the opportunity to pay tribute to all those who lost their lives in the tragedy; our sympathies are, of course, with all those residents who will have to rebuild their lives after such a horrific event and with the families of those affected. I also put on record again the huge debt of gratitude that we owe to those in the fire service and all the emergency services who worked tirelessly to rescue residents and support families in the immediate circumstances of the fire, and in the almost as bad circumstances of having to sift through the building day after day to see what they could find in the wreckage.

There was a huge gulf in the response to this tragedy between the public and the Government. The public acted immediately and with great generosity. Government, both national and local, acted slowly and, initially at least, without the same energy or generosity. It took the Government 48 hours to establish a central command centre, for example, and the borough council seemed unprepared and overwhelmed. If this had been a terrorist attack, the response would have been far more effective—we saw that in London only a few days ago. Things that have, for example, taken 48 hours in this case, would, in the case of a terrorist attack, be in place within 48 minutes. There was clearly a failure of emergency planning for this kind of incident, which we do not see for terrorist attacks, for which emergency planning is clearly extremely good. So I ask the Government: what immediate steps are being taken to ensure that such a failure will not be replicated in any future non-terrorist incident?

The Government say that they welcome—and indeed precipitated—the resignation of the chief executive of Kensington and Chelsea council. But what about the leader of the council? It was a political decision to stockpile huge cash reserves while apparently skimping on safety measures. Will the Government now be asking him to resign also?

We welcome the public inquiry that has been announced by the Prime Minister. We must obviously ask a raft of difficult questions, including why the fire spread so quickly and why the lessons of the past seem not to have been learned, but there are obvious concerns about how long such an inquiry might last. History is not very encouraging in this respect. Can the Leader of the House give any further assurances in terms of both the speed with which any interim recommendations might be produced and how we can ensure that the full inquiry does not drag on for years?

The Statement says that a number of tests already carried out have shown other blocks to be clad in combustible materials, and the Government claim that all local authorities and fire services are now taking all possible steps to ensure buildings are safe. Given that some—indeed many—of these steps will be costly, can the Government give an assurance today that they will not be delayed by any shortage of funding? In the case of such buildings which are privately owned, what steps beyond exhortation will the Government take to ensure that the owners fulfil their legal obligations to provide safe buildings?

It is clear that, when the tests on all these buildings are complete, there will be a need for large-scale remedial action. If there are 600 blocks, there will be a vast amount of work that needs doing quickly. This can be undertaken only by skilled workers in the construction sector. Given that there is already a shortage of such skills, particularly in London, and that 50% of the construction workforce in London is from the EU, can the noble Baroness give an assurance that, as the Brexit talks proceed, every encouragement will be given to such workers to continue to come to London, as any major labour shortage in this area could be literally a matter of life and death?

There are a number of issues in the Statement that could legitimately give rise to anger. But what got to me was the Prime Minister’s peroration. She said:

“It should not take a disaster of this kind for us to remember that there are people in Britain today living lives that are so far removed from those that many here in Westminster enjoy”;


and she went on,

“let the legacy of this awful tragedy be that we resolve never to forget these people and instead to gear our policies and our thinking towards making their lives better and bringing them into the political process. It is our job as a Government … to show we are listening and that we will stand up for them”.

This is a leader of a party who has just stood on an election manifesto to cut spending in schools by 7% and impose big further cuts in welfare payments and local government expenditure. This hypocrisy makes me very angry. Will the noble Baroness the Leader of the House suggest to the Prime Minister that if she really wishes to stand up for people such as the tenants of Grenfell Tower, she should start to adopt policies which follow her words?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I express my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Newby, for their comments and contributions today. As we have all recognised, this has been one of the most unimaginable tragedies that we have seen in many years. I once again reiterate that our thoughts at this time are very much with the families and all those affected. I reassure everyone that the Government’s focus is on doing everything possible to help those affected.

Before I respond to some of the points the noble Lords have made, in the light of the tragic events, my noble friend Lord Bourne will provide time to update Peers on the events and the Government’s response. He will host an all-Peers briefing session on Monday 26 June at 3 pm in Room 10A. As the noble Baroness said, given that things are changing regularly, we hope that the comments of my noble friend Lord Bourne on the latest issues will be a very useful update for noble Lords.

I will try to answer as many questions as I can but I shall read noble Lords’ comments, and I apologise if I do not respond to everything at this point. I will try to follow up where I can afterwards. Both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord asked about the public inquiry. I reassure everyone that we want to leave no stone unturned, which is why we have ordered a public, judge-led inquiry. Draft terms of reference have been shared with the Lord Chief Justice and discussions about a potential chair are ongoing. We hope to have a confirmed appointment very shortly. I also reassure noble Lords that the families of victims and other interested parties will be consulted on the terms of reference, as it is essential that their voices are heard, and, as the noble Baroness rightly said, that the whole range of issues that need to be investigated are included in this inquiry.

The noble Baroness asked about the 600 figure, which I should clarify. We think that there may be around 600 buildings which have cladding. That is not to say that is combustible cladding but we think that about 600 buildings have cladding. Landlords are now examining these to see which have aluminium composite material which may need to be tested. Testing will reveal how many have the wrong type of cladding. It is important also to stress that aluminium composite material cladding itself is not dangerous, but it is important that the right type is used. Not all those 600 buildings may have an issue; that is the range of buildings which may need to be looked at. I can also confirm to the noble Lord that the testing being undertaken is free. The Government are providing the funding for that, so funding should not get in the way of testing. Indeed, we are urging all landlords to make sure that they send in samples as quickly as possible. The labs can test about 100 a day and results can be turned around very quickly so we can get very quick responses. Indeed, Camden council announced this morning or this afternoon that it needs to investigate one of its buildings. It has acted very quickly on the information it has received. Therefore, we very much hope that everyone will send their samples in and we will be able to take action as quickly as possible.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked about the building regulations. Cladding using a composite aluminium panel with a polyethylene core would be non-compliant under current building regulations, as this material should not be used as cladding on buildings over 18 metres in height. It is also important to note that tests are ongoing to identify the exact causes of the fire, but we will, of course, take all steps necessary to prevent this happening again. The cost of dealing with the cladding on buildings will, of course, vary depending on the buildings. It is the landlord’s responsibility to ensure that people are safe but cost considerations should not, and cannot, get in the way of that, so we will look at how we can provide support. We will also obviously work with local authorities where they identify issues to ensure that they have the resources they need to deal with the issues that they may find.

The noble Lord, Lord Newby, commented on the initial response. The Prime Minister has been very clear that we absolutely accept that the initial support for families was simply not good enough. She has apologised and I do so again on behalf of the Government. In terms of actions going forward, one of the actions that we will take is to set up a new civil disaster response task force. That will be part of our procedures going forward, so that we can try to ensure that the suffering people experienced after the event because the response was not good enough does not occur again.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Newby Excerpts

Wednesday 21st June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, each year, in advance of the Queen’s Speech, we receive our Writ of Summons. Normally when I glance at it, I smile rather complacently when I see that we are being summoned to consider “arduous and urgent affairs” and “imminent perils”. This year, however, those words seem only too apt. We are indeed, as the Queen herself put it, living in sombre times, which she must feel even more keenly today with the illness of the Duke of Edinburgh. We wish him well.

Recent weeks have seen a spate of quite horrific events. I too would like to pay tribute to the victims of the terrorist attacks in Manchester, London Bridge and Finsbury Park, and to those who lost their lives in the terrible fire at Grenfell Tower. The terrorists who carried out the attacks in Manchester and London hate our tolerance and the freedom it brings. The attacks were meant to divide us, but the response from the local communities and the country more generally was to unite, to show compassion and to support the victims and their families. I commend in particular the actions of the imam of the Finsbury Park mosque, Mohammed Mahmoud, whose calm, decisive intervention prevented further injuries and violence.

That same generosity of spirit has been shown in recent days to those who lost their homes and all their possessions in the Grenfell Tower fire. The alacrity with which so many people gave their time, money and possessions to help the victims was truly remarkable. I also pay tribute, from these Benches, to the emergency services for their professional and courageous responses to all these tragedies. The police, fire service, ambulance crews and medical professionals acted with bravery and huge dedication. They have humbled us all.

It is a great pleasure to echo the Leader of the Opposition, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, in congratulating the proposer and seconder of the humble Address. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, made a speech of characteristic energy and wit. The House will be aware that there are times—many times—when the noble Lord does not quite see eye to eye with the Liberal Democrats. It is always rather worrying when making a speech to see the noble Lord readying himself to intervene with what one often rightly fears will be a particularly fatal acerbic barb. This, however, is nowhere near as worrying as when I was a Minister and the noble Lord rose to intervene on a Treasury Question. Then I knew that the Government, and more particularly me, were really in trouble.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bertin, made an excellent speech. She is the youngest Member of your Lordships’ House. I was once the youngest life Peer in your Lordships’ House, and I know how daunting it is to speak to an audience whose average age is several decades older than one’s own. This is, of course, one of life’s few problems that diminishes with the years, but in the case of the noble Baroness it is clearly not a problem even now. Her speech had all the hallmarks of a consummate wordsmith.

I must apologise to the House that this speech is not as polished as I would have liked, but when I sat down to write it towards the end of last week I was unable to make much progress. Everywhere was confusion. Was there a Conservative deal with the DUP? Had our Brexit negotiating stance softened? Had we indeed reached, to quote the breathless Times headline of last week, the end of austerity? And which, if any, of the Conservative manifesto pledges had not been jettisoned on the grounds that they were too unpopular to pass the Commons?

I thought then that I would write the speech at the weekend, but Sunday came and the fog had not lifted. The only new announcement was that because it was proving so difficult to write this year’s Queen’s Speech the Government had decided not to have one next year at all. Perhaps, I thought, Monday would bring clarity. It did not. Tuesday? No better. Although we now have a speech, it leaves all the big questions facing the Government and the country completely unanswered. The recent terrorist attacks and the Grenfell Tower fire have both in their different ways illuminated rifts in our society that appear to be widening rather than closing. They both demand a thoughtful and proportionate response from government, but there is no sign of that in the Queen's Speech.

Those specific events, appalling though they are, happened against the backdrop of two more systemic crises facing the country as a whole. The first relates to public services and the public finances. On education, the Government are planning a 7% real-terms cut in spending per pupil. In health, as more and more hospital trusts run up large deficits, it is impossible to see how current levels of patient service can do anything other than decline further. On social care, we face a funding crisis which the Conservative manifesto made no serious attempt to resolve at all. Following the debacle of the dementia tax, we now also have no idea what the Government plan to do to limit the amount that individuals might pay for their care.

Overall, the Conservative manifesto treated the electorate like children when it came to money. We were told not to worry our pretty little heads about how a raft of spending pledges were to be met, because the all-wise Government would ensure that it was okay. It was hardly surprising that the Institute for Fiscal Studies said that they were “not being honest” with the electorate, and that they would have to raise either taxes or borrowing beyond their current plans if the quality of public services, including the NHS, were not to decline. We therefore do not know in reality how the Government will pay for their plans, nor indeed what those plans really are.

We do, however, know that the economy is in real trouble. We have the lowest growth in the G7, inflation is rising fast, real wages are falling, and as a result consumer expenditure is starting to fall. This all stems from the fall in the pound brought about by Brexit, the second major crisis facing the country. The election was called ostensibly to give the Government a larger majority and therefore a stronger hand in the Brexit negotiations. In reality it was a cynical attempt to use a brief window of opportunity with what they saw as a weak Labour leadership and a temporarily robust economy to shore up the Conservatives’ own fortunes. They failed to read the history of Ted Heath’s attempt to fight a single-issue election in 1974, and they have reaped the consequences.

As a result, and as the Brexit talks begin with a massive climbdown over timetabling, our weakened Prime Minister and squabbling Ministers have made us worse than a laughing stock across Europe. We have become an object of pity, with prayers for our well-being being said last weekend across Germany and with newspapers across the continent saying yesterday that the Government have already thrown in the towel on the Brexit talks.

There is clearly no majority in the Commons or the country for the harsh form of Brexit which the Government presented at the election. There is certainly no majority for the idea that no deal is better than a bad deal. For noble Lords opposite who have argued that the there was no alternative to this harsh approach, I suggest they have a word with the Chancellor, who is clearly desperately trying to moderate it. He, at least, knows that Brexit will be bad for jobs, public finances and investment and is trying to limit the damage.

My party has made it clear that we will be looking to work across Parliament to try to achieve the least worst Brexit possible. We agree with the Prime Minister in her speech of 25 April last year that any Brexit will make us poorer, less secure and less influential, but it is incumbent on us all to try to mitigate the cost incurred by any final Brexit deal.

We will, however, continue to argue that the people, having started the Brexit process, should have the final say. I believe that every poll on the subject over the past couple of months has shown a majority of respondents now saying that they thought that the Brexit decision was a mistake, and a poll published over the weekend showed that a majority now want to have a final say on the outcome of the negotiations. During the Article 50 proceedings in your Lordships’ House, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, argued that Labour could support such a confirmatory referendum if public opinion was asking for it. I trust that that remains the Labour Party’s position.

In this period of unparalleled uncertainty, we are of course delighted that in your Lordships’ House we have retained strong and stable leadership, and we welcome the Leader and Chief Whip back in their previous roles. We are sorry, but unsurprised, that the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, felt unable to carry on defending the indefensible as Brexit Minister, and we welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, to her new role. We wish her luck; she may need it.

There has been some debate about the effect of the election result on the application of the Salisbury convention. On these Benches, we are clear: we will carefully scrutinise every piece of legislation which comes before us and judge it on its merits. There are clearly some measures in the Queen’s Speech with which we will agree—for example, the reform of mental health legislation and the new rights for tenants. But if we think that a Bill contains measures which are damaging to the country, we will seek to ask the Commons to think again. The balance of forces in the Commons now means that the Government will face daily problems getting their legislation through there, but when legislation eventually comes to your Lordships’ House, we will give it exactly the same degree of scrutiny as we have in the past.

The current situation in the Commons is obviously a muddle. We do not know whether the Conservatives will do a formal deal with the DUP. If they do, there will be concerns about security, human rights and funding. Most importantly, there will be concerns about how the Conservatives can possibly be honest brokers in the ongoing implementation of the Good Friday agreement. In these circumstances, it is imperative that the Government provide full transparency of any deal that is entered into. It is only by making the agreement public and allowing the details to be open to public scrutiny that the electorate can be satisfied that the Prime Minister is acting in the national interest, not just that of her party.

The Prime Minister called this election purely to strengthen her position and that of the Conservatives. She has achieved the opposite. At this time of national crisis, and in the absence of a majority Government, Parliament assumes a particular responsibility to provide a sense of direction for the country. We on these Benches take these responsibilities with extreme seriousness and will play our part in bringing the country through our current travails and into a better future.

Clerk of the Parliaments

Lord Newby Excerpts

Monday 24th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I associate myself with the comments of the Leader and the Leader of the Opposition. Everybody in your Lordships’ House knows that Sir David Beamish is a man of many talents. One that he hid from me at least was the one that both speakers have referred to—namely, his ability as a quiz show contestant. Not only did he win “Mastermind”, he also won “Master Brain”, which was an amalgamation of the radio quiz “Brain of Britain” and “Mastermind”. His specialist subject there was the works of Beatrix Potter. I wonder if he thought of himself as Parliament’s equivalent of Mr McGregor. I suspect not because he was far too kindly. He honed his knowledge on that subject, apparently, on car journeys by thinking up questions to ask himself. I am not sure whether he whiled away the longueurs of committee meetings in your Lordships’ House by following the same pursuit, but if he did, I doubt whether committee members would have been aware of it.

Sir David began his career in an era when the regulation of banks in the City was allegedly done largely by the raising of the Governor of the Bank of England’s eyebrow. In David’s case, he expressed his displeasure, in committees at least, by knitting his brow and frowning in a manner that implied that he had thought of at least three compelling arguments why the proposal being propounded, no doubt by some relatively new and inexperienced committee member, was not seriously to be entertained. That could have a seriously restraining influence on more experienced members of the committee who, having seen David’s frown, were less inclined to support the proposal because they knew that he was, albeit elegantly, about to shoot it down in flames.

As we have heard, Sir David’s career covered, by House of Lords standards, a period of unparalleled change. His role was often to strike a balance between accommodating change and doing so in a way that was within the overall traditions of the House and therefore likely to command its support. He was extremely adept at doing so. We all know that there is a very considerable gap in the ages at which we expect our officials to retire and those at which your Lordships retire, and David is retiring at the height of his powers. I believe that he has a number of interests that he is keen to pursue more vigorously. I did not know about Wikipedia. No doubt noble Lords will be looking at their entries to see if they are changed in the foreseeable future. We wish him well in these endeavours and a very long and happy retirement. In wishing him well, I too wish Ed Ollard the new Clerk of the Parliaments, the new Clerk Assistant and the new Reading Clerk well. We are very fortunate in the calibre of staff in your Lordships’ House and we look forward in particular to working very closely with these three new appointees in the new Parliament.

Role of the Lord Speaker

Lord Newby Excerpts

Thursday 30th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I find myself in the somewhat disconcerting position of broadly agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. This has never happened to me before on a constitutional issue, and I would not necessarily want your Lordships to feel that my remarks today could in any sense constitute a precedent.

The starting point should be one that a number of noble Lords have made: why are we the only deliberative assembly in the world that does things in this particular way? It therefore seems that, looking at this afresh, we should ask why we, uniquely, should behave in this way when the rest of the world has decided to do things somewhat differently.

Obviously, your Lordships’ House has considered this; it considered it at great length in 2011 and decided that it did not want to make any change. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said, the size of the House has increased, and there are more people wanting to come in, and it is undoubtedly the case that more people watch proceedings in your Lordships’ House than ever before. The perception that they gain, as a number of noble Lords said, is that Question Time is unduly shambolic. I do not think that having a Lord Speaker exercising a role would stop it being contentious—but the perception would be significantly improved.

I have to accept that the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, the Government Chief Whip, is an extremely benevolent, subtle dictator at Question Time. He does the job extremely well and extremely fairly, as does the noble Baroness the Leader. No Lord Speaker would do the job more fairly; I have no worries about that. But, having been a Whip on the Government Benches, I think that the role the Government Whips play is pretty difficult in practice.

This is not strictly related to today, but my role very often was to try to impose time limits on speeches. I felt that I was often seeking to reduce the time of Opposition Members. They felt that this was partisan and I felt very uncomfortable doing it. My free tip to the Whips is that the best way of getting people to realise that they have gone over time is not excessive gesticulation but just tapping one’s wristwatch with a pen. It is very effective non-verbal communication—but it is not a very impressive way of doing things.

I have great sympathy with this proposal. However, I have to accept that it is not the universal view of the House or indeed my own group—I slightly feel the breath of my noble friend Lord Beith down my neck as I speak. The qualms expressed today are largely born out of experience of the House of Commons that they do not want replicated here. In particular, the point was made by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, that if the Lord Speaker has the power to call individual Members, they might over time moderate their behaviour. I am not sure that it would quite work in that way in your Lordships’ House.

The proposal put to the House in 2011 was not for greater powers to go to the Speaker than currently obtain in the Government Front Bench but simply to transfer the existing powers. I would have thought that that was a pretty good way of avoiding the slippery slope. It is a very easy argument—and not always wrong—to say that if you make any change it is the start of a slippery slope. However, given that we are a self-regulating House and it is virtually impossible ever to change anything here, the idea that making one modest change is going to lead to an avalanche of changes for the Lord Speaker seems implausible. So I recommend that this narrow proposal should go back to the Procedure Committee, whence it came originally, for another look. I would not recommend the kind of review that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, suggested, because if we went for that we would probably never get anywhere—the only change we will ever make is incremental.

Brexit: Triggering Article 50

Lord Newby Excerpts

Wednesday 29th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement. It is now over nine months since the result of the referendum was announced and the Prime Minister has sent the letter that starts the process of our withdrawal from the European Union after a relationship of over 40 years. Just like any other divorce, there will be some who rejoice and look forward to new opportunities, but others will despair over the shared past and lost love. A few will fondly recall the marriage, divorces and remarriage of Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor with some hope, but, through it all, the only people to get rich were those trying to unravel those 40-plus years of relative harmony—the lawyers.

Through it all there will be one common emotion—uncertainty about the future, because the Prime Minister herself has to concede that no one can yet know what the final deal or arrangements will look like. So we now have to focus on what comes next, and what comes next is complex. While some fear for the worst, we will all work for the best. As I have said previously, the debates and negotiations cannot be left to those who have no doubt. We have to engage the talent, experience and wisdom of our whole nation together in the national interest.

Today’s letter specifies our negotiating position with the European Union. The Labour Party has set out six tests by which the Government will be judged on the final deal. They include migration, national security and crime, employment and social rights, and the need to support all regions and nations in the UK as we develop our future relationship with the remaining 27 countries in the EU. The sixth test is the Government’s own, as set out by David Davis to the House of Commons on 24 January: that on trade, the Government’s aim is to deliver,

“a comprehensive free trade agreement and a comprehensive customs agreement that will deliver the exact same benefits as we have”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/1/17; col. 169.]

That is a pretty high bar, but it is a bar set by the Government and one that the Government will be held accountable to.

Today, I set one further test for the Government. It is not controversial and I hope that it will be willingly accepted by the Government and the noble Baroness the Leader of the House. The seventh test is the one that will set the tone for the debate, the negotiations and the mood of the nation in accepting and understanding the outcome. This test is the test of complete honesty. As the Prime Minister and her team enter into the negotiations, there will be good days and there will be difficult days; there will be days when everything seems possible and days when nothing goes right. The Prime Minister has, on many occasions, been clear about her confidence that she can and will negotiate a good deal in the interests of the UK. But there are others who are confident that any deal, or even no deal, is better than where we are now. We totally reject that. This process must not be so ideologically driven that the Government accept anything and claim it is a good deal. That is where honesty comes in. If the Prime Minister is disappointed or dissatisfied with the negotiations or the outcome of agreements, she must in the national interest be prepared to say so. If there is to be a truly meaningful vote at the end of this process, it has to be undertaken with the certainty that Parliament has the information needed to make an informed decision in the best interests of this country.

I want to raise some specifics on the Statement and the letter. On the devolved Administrations, despite the Prime Minister’s warm words that she intends to strengthen the four nations of the UK, I have to say that that is not how it feels at the moment. I have three questions on the significant increase in the decision-making powers of the devolved Administrations. What discussions have there been so far? Can the noble Baroness give an assurance on the ongoing consultation, particularly given the concerns already raised by the First Minister of Wales? Will any of these powers require primary legislation?

I am pleased that in her letter to President Tusk the Prime Minister specifically mentions Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland border. It is right that she sets this as a priority, and I believe that the issue, if not yet the solution, is also understood by the remaining 27 European countries. However, the Prime Minister refers in the letter to it being the only land border with the UK. While that is technically correct, I remind her that we have a land border between the British Overseas Territory of Gibraltar and Spain. I appreciate that a trigger letter could never include all of our negotiating issues, but I was extremely disappointed at the omission of any reference to the people of Gibraltar and their concerns in either the Statement or the letter. The Prime Minister says that she will take into account the specific interests of every nation and region. Can the noble Baroness the Leader give this House an assurance that we will not abandon Gibraltar and that its interests will also be represented?

The commitment to seek an early agreement to guarantee the rights of EU nationals in the UK and our nationals in the remaining 27 countries is welcome. The noble Baroness will be aware of the disappointment of your Lordships’ House that our amendment to include a guarantee in legislation was rejected by the Government and the other place. The Prime Minister confirms in her letter that making this part of the negotiations is complex. I hope, therefore, that given the support of your Lordships’ House, the Government will accept the Motion in the name of my noble friend Lady Hayter, to be debated next week, that the Government should report back to Parliament before the end of this Session on progress.

I also welcome the assurance in the Statement of what the Government call the “phased process” of implementation of the new arrangements and agreements. I know that the Government do not like talking about transition and call it instead an implementation phase. I am equally happy with either. What is important here is that change is practical, workable and pragmatic and not ideologically driven towards the cliff-edge scenario. I welcome that and thank the noble Baroness and the Prime Minister for their assurances on that point.

On Euratom, I understand from the letter that the Government consider that we must come out as part of our EU exit, but given the importance of this issue, I would have liked to have seen a commitment to seeking early agreement for a new practical partnership.

I want to register concerns about the misleading language where the Prime Minister appears to connect trade and national security in her letter to President Tusk. On page 3 of the letter, she makes reference to,

“a deep and special partnership between the UK and the EU, taking in both economic and security cooperation”,

and I wholeheartedly endorse that. She then rightly points out that:

“If, however, we leave the European Union without an agreement the default position is that we would have to trade on World Trade Organisation terms”.


So far, that is clear. But the very next sentence states:

“In security terms a failure to reach agreement would mean our cooperation in the fight against crime and terrorism would be weakened”.


Because it is unclear which agreement she is referring to, the letter to President Tusk appears to state that if we cannot reach an agreement on trade, this will have an impact on security agreements. I am grateful for the reassurance and clarity from Downing Street that that was not the intention, but given the complexity and sensitivities of the negotiations that we are about to start, it is essential that there is no misunderstanding at all or lack of clarity. I suggest that, for the avoidance of doubt, in future issues such as trade and security are never linked. They are both essential in their own right and a responsible agreement on one is not dependent on the other.

Tomorrow, we wait with some anticipation the White Paper on repealing the 1972 legislation and enshrining EU legislation, in which we played our part, into UK law. However, noble Lords will have seen the comments from some on the Government Benches about this being an opportunity for deregulation or cutting so-called red tape—in other words, doing away with protections and rights for UK citizens. I seek an assurance from the noble Baroness that this is not the part of the so-called great repeal Bill and that the Government will resist any attempts to bring in such changes by the back door, thus seeking to avoid proper parliamentary scrutiny. In that she will have our support.

Finally, I welcome both the tone of the Prime Minister’s Statement and the emphasis that she has placed throughout on partnership. Only the most ideologically driven have ever suggested that this process will be easy or problem free. It will not; it will be difficult and complex. The tone of the Prime Minister’s remarks about our place in Europe may help to ease that path, but it will be important that the Government commit to being open and transparent with Parliament and the country. As we move forward, transparency, openness, engagement and honesty will be expected and will be essential.

Next week, the other Motion that we will debate, in my name, seeks to establish a Joint Committee of both Houses to work together to establish the best way to ensure that Parliament has the best information possible and the best processes to have a meaningful vote on the final agreement. I urge the Government to support this because, as the Prime Minister makes clear, we must all work together in the national interest.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, today is for me and my colleagues an extremely sad day. It marks the point at which the UK seeks to distance itself from its nearest neighbours at a time when, in every area of public policy, logic suggests that we should be working more closely together rather than less.

But sadness is a passive emotion, and it is not the only thing that we feel. We feel a sense of anger that the Government are pursuing a brutal Brexit, which will rip us out of the single market and many other European networks from which we benefit so much. We believe that the country will be poorer, less secure and less influential as a result, and we feel that at every point, whether it be the calling of the referendum itself or the choices made on how to put its result into effect, the principal motivation in the minds of Ministers has been not what is best for the long-term interests of the country but what is best for the short-term interests of the Conservative Party.

We do not believe that the Government have the faintest clue about how they are going to achieve the goals that they set out in their White Paper last month or the Prime Minister’s Statement today, and we have no confidence in their willingness to give Parliament a proper say either as the negotiations proceed or at their conclusion. We therefore believe that, at the end of the process, only the people should have the final say on whether any deal negotiated by the Government —or no deal—is preferable to ongoing EU membership. We will strain every sinew to ensure that outcome.

In her Statement today, the Prime Minister makes a number of rather extraordinary claims. She says that she is going to build on existing workers’ rights rather than diminish them. Can the Leader of the House give just one example, or even a clue, of what that might mean and how it might be achieved? Can she also take this opportunity to repudiate the proposal by a number of leading Brexiters in recent days that the working time directive be either watered down or repealed altogether?

The Prime Minister says that the world needs the liberal democratic values of Europe more than ever. Far be it from me to claim any knowledge of liberal democratic values, but can the Leader explain how leaving the EU can do anything other than reduce Europe’s ability to project those values on the international stage?

The Prime Minister says that she will strengthen the union of the nations which comprise the United Kingdom. Given that to date the effect of the Brexit vote is to threaten the union at every point, what form do the Government expect this strengthening to take?

She says that membership of the single market will be jettisoned because it would be incompatible with the expressed will of the British people. Given that this proposition was not on the ballot paper, that it is the opposite of what was said in the Conservative Party manifesto, that many leading Brexit supporters left open or actually supported the continuation of our single market membership, and that all subsequent polling shows overwhelming support for our continued membership, on what basis is she making that assertion?

She says that Europe has a responsibility to stand up for free trade. Does she not think that the EU will find that a bit rich, coming from this country at the point when we are leaving the single market and customs union?

She says that she wants to be a committed partner of the EU, but when we are walking away from the EU because of the belief that membership of it is damaging to the country’s interests, what can commitment mean other than a shrunken and grudging relationship?

Moreover, does the Leader of the House accept that when the Prime Minister says that when she sits round the negotiating table, she will represent every person in the UK, she is mistaken? She has chosen to promote an extreme version of Brexit and one which is completely at odds with her own views of less than a year ago. In doing so, she has chosen not to speak for the many millions who voted to remain in the EU and the single market, and she certainly does not represent them or me or my colleagues on these Benches.

The Prime Minister claims that Brexit will make us stronger, fairer and better, but it will not. The Government’s approach will make us poorer, less generous and diminished as a nation. It is perfectly legitimate for the country to go down such a route, but it did not do so on 23 June last year, and the people should have the final say on whether this is the fate they really want.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their comments. On the noble Baroness’s first point, although the letter makes it clear that if we leave the EU without an agreement the default position would be that we have to trade on WTO terms, it also makes it clear that that is not an outcome that either side should seek. We want to work very hard to avoid that, and that is exactly what we will be doing.

I also reassure the noble Baroness that we will be working closely with all the devolved Administrations to deliver a Brexit that works for all parts of the UK. Part of that will mean working very carefully to ensure that as powers are repatriated from Brussels to the UK, the right powers are returned to Westminster and the right powers passed to the devolved Administrations. We will continue to work closely with our devolved colleagues.

On the noble Baroness’s points on Gibraltar, I understand that the reason why Gibraltar was not mentioned in the letter is that it is not part of the UK for the purposes of EU law. However, we are very clear that Gibraltar will of course be covered in our exit negotiations and will be fully involved. We have set up a new joint ministerial committee with the Gibraltar Government to ensure their full involvement. In fact, my noble friend Lady Goldie met the Chief Minister and had a very constructive, positive discussion. The Gibraltarians are very positive about their engagement with the UK Government so far. We will continue to ensure that we work closely with them.

The noble Baroness and the noble Lord also mentioned the status of EU nationals, which we have discussed at length in this House. I repeat: securing an agreement to guarantee the status of EU nationals here and UK nationals in the EU is one of our top priorities. Indeed, it is set out explicitly in those terms in the letter. As Michel Barnier has said, this is also a priority for the Commission, so we will be doing all we can to ensure that we can provide the clarity that noble Lords have been asking for.

On security, I can absolutely confirm and reassure noble Lords that we are committed to ensuring that we continue working closely with our European partners on security, defence and foreign policy, as I said. We want a partnership where we can continue contributing to the security of Europe using our range of defence and security capabilities as well as our global standing, networks and influence, input into policy developments and information sharing. That remains of key importance to us.

The noble Lord and the noble Baroness referred to parliamentary scrutiny and involvement. Once again I reiterate that we have said there will be a Motion on the final agreement to be approved by both Houses of Parliament before it is concluded. We expect and intend that this will happen before the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement. We intend that Parliament’s vote will cover not only the withdrawal arrangements but the future relationship with the EU.

The noble Lord talked about leaving the single market. I will read from the letter:

“Since I became Prime Minister of the United Kingdom I have listened carefully to you, to my fellow EU Heads of Government and the Presidents of the European Commission and Parliament. That is why the United Kingdom does not seek membership of the single market: we understand and respect your position that the four freedoms of the single market are indivisible and there can be no ‘cherry picking’”.


We have also been very clear that we will protect workers’ rights. For instance, I point to the introduction of the national living wage, which has ensured an increase in income for some of our poorest paid.

London Attacks

Lord Newby Excerpts

Thursday 23rd March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I endorse the Leader of the House’s comments. After the numerous meetings we had yesterday, I also thank her for the personal leadership that she has shown. I also thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds for leading us in Prayers today. I think all of us feel the need to join in collective recognition of what London and our country have faced.

Last night as we returned home we were very grateful—not just because of the shocking and tragic events of the day but simply because we could return home and others would never do so. As the noble Baroness said, those injured and killed on Westminster Bridge were visitors and locals of our great global city. They were just going about their everyday business and enjoying their day. For many of the survivors, life will never be the same.

Each and every day, our police and security staff come to work not knowing what challenges and risks they may face. We all hope for the best—but their training, experience and commitment prepares them for the worst. They never know when they will be called upon to protect the public and those who work in the Palace of Westminster—and, indeed, protect the very home of our parliamentary democracy and all that it represents.

In doing so, police officer Keith Palmer lost his life. Every instinct he had was to protect others. There are no words that can do justice to the sense of loss felt by his family and friends, and by everybody across the Palace of Westminster—his parliamentary family.

In the Statement that follows we can perhaps look forwards to some of the wider issues, but now our thoughts are only for those affected in any way yesterday. It is hard to express the level of gratitude and appreciation due to all of those involved in the security and care operation. We pay tribute to the police, the medical and ambulance services, those staff at St Thomas’ who ran out to help those on Westminster Bridge, the fire and rescue service, our own Westminster security staff, and all staff and members of the public who sought to support those affected by these truly shocking events. In the worst of circumstances, they have given their best.

Lives have been lost and some lives will never be the same. Friends and families will share the pain and distress, as do we.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I begin by associating myself with the remarks made by the Leader and the Leader of the Opposition. From these Benches, our thoughts and prayers are also with the families of those who lost their lives yesterday and our profound sympathies are with the innocent victims—members of the public who were on Westminster Bridge and also subject to this senseless attack.

I of course also pay tribute to PC Keith Palmer, who lost his life yesterday—an extremely brave man—and to all the police and security staff who do so much every day to protect all who come to Parliament to work or visit. I also pay tribute to all those from the emergency services who attended the scene yesterday and who worked with such bravery and professionalism. In particular, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Thomas of Winchester and others, I thank those who helped Members of your Lordships’ House who are disabled and who needed particular help in being taken to a place of safety. Finally, I thank the Dean of Westminster Abbey and his staff, who opened their doors as a place of sanctuary to MPs, Peers and staff.

This morning we stand together against those who want to diminish our democratic freedoms. We are an open, tolerant country and we will never let those who spread terror and fear win—and we will not let them divide us.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Newby, has reminded us, many of us were taken to the sanctuary of Westminster Abbey or to Westminster Hall as events unfolded yesterday afternoon. The Dean of Westminster invited those in the Abbey to join him in a prayer for the deceased, the injured and their families. Such information as we had at that stage gave us little idea of the enormity of what had happened—of the horror and brutality of the attack—until we saw the reality later on television. We on these Benches join with everyone else in this House in expressing our deepest sympathy to the family of PC Keith Palmer, so tragically taken from us as he sought to deter the attacker.

We remember, too, the families and friends of the members of the public who were killed and all those who were injured, including the students from France whose visit to our city was so devastated by what happened. The fact that the incident did not develop into something very much worse owes much to the teams of security personnel and police officers who guard us every day. Like others, I pay tribute to their courage and dedication as we seek to follow their example of standing firm against attacks of this kind, from wherever they may come. I pay tribute, too, to others in the security services up and down the country who work so hard in the service of this country’s peace and security. For that, amid so much sadness, we must all be grateful.

London Attacks

Lord Newby Excerpts

Thursday 23rd March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating today’s Statement. I understand that some of the words at the beginning of my previous comments were lost, so I will just repeat them. The noble Baroness and I had a number of meetings yesterday until quite late in the evening, and I add my personal thanks to her and pay tribute to the leadership she has shown.

The Prime Minister, in her words last night and as we have heard today, has I believe spoken for the nation. Yesterday showed us the best and the worst of society, the worst being those who seek to maim and murder. Yesterday’s atrocities can never be justified by any belief or cause. But we also saw the best, as the noble Baroness has said. We have paid tribute to Police Officer Keith Palmer, who was killed as he protected others. I hope we will be able to have a permanent memorial in the Palace of Westminster to him. Many others from inside this great building and across Westminster ran towards trouble to care for and give comfort to others. That is the London I know.

The full facts may not be clear for some time, but it is clear that this was a vile attack both on innocent individuals and on the institution and symbol of parliamentary democracy. As we receive more information, I have no doubt that security will be reviewed and assessed. That is right. Those who work here in the Palace of Westminster and in London and beyond, and those who seek to protect Parliament, public institutions and the public, should expect nothing less. We must do all we can to ensure the security and safety of our Members of Parliament and their staff. It is less than a year ago that I stood here after Jo Cox, our Member of Parliament for Batley and Spen, was murdered as she worked for her constituents. In seeking to protect lives, we must also seek to protect our way of life, our values and our democracy. At this stage I ask only that the noble Baroness keeps Parliament informed and engaged in this process.

Yesterday’s attack, as truly shocking as it was, ultimately failed—but at a very high price. Our determination to continue our work and our way of life is not false heroism, but based on sound values and responsibility. It is only possible because of the courage, commitment and professionalism of those such as Police Officer Keith Palmer who stand day in, day out in front of danger and evil to protect us all.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement. The horrific events of yesterday were an attack not just on Parliament but on democracy. It was an attack on the values that are represented by this building and recognised across the world: freedom, openness, tolerance, human rights, mutual respect for our neighbours and the rule of law.

No doubt there will be lessons that we can learn from the events of yesterday, but we must not lose sight of the fact that the person who carried out this horrific attack was, as the noble Baroness said, prevented from entering the building and was stopped a matter of yards within its precincts. The security arrangements in place for such an attack swung into action, for which we thank our security staff and of course PC Keith Palmer in particular.

I hope that, as we move forward from yesterday’s events, we maintain the sense that Parliament is an open place which the public can visit to lobby parliamentarians and to see our democratic processes in action. But we must listen to the individual experiences of Members and staff to determine where improvements can be made.

I welcome the statement by the Lord Speaker that the House of Lords Commission will be considering these matters next week. No doubt individual Members will have views of their own. I, for example, would like us to look again at the long-standing proposals to pedestrianise some of the streets around this place. However, there are many other sensible suggestions that we need to look at tomorrow.

I have only one question for the noble Baroness the Leader of the House. We do not know at this stage the extent to which this particular incident was entirely home-grown, but we do know that terrorism is an international business. I hope she can give the House an assurance that as we move forward in the months and years ahead, the Government will do everything they can to ensure that our strong and growing security links with our closest neighbours across Europe are maintained and strengthened.

I hope that today, as we condemn this senseless violence, that condemnation will be expressed by both faith and secular communities across the country, for the greatest tribute we can give to those who have lost their lives is to come together as a country and uphold our way of life and democracy.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, it is not the usual custom for the Convener of the Cross Benches to respond to a Statement of this kind, but this is a very special occasion. I pay my own thanks to the Leader for repeating the Statement in the other place by the Prime Minister.

There are lessons to be learned from yesterday, and they certainly will be. One of the things that struck me as the evening wore on was the challenge faced by the security forces, police and staff—indeed, the doorkeepers in this Chamber—in moving so many people about without risk to themselves. It was an enormous undertaking. I do not have the exact figures but something like 800 people were in Westminster Hall, while it was said that 2,500 people were present in Westminster Abbey. You have to imagine the process of moving people from place to place. They included children who were kept in Westminster Hall, who kept themselves and many other people happy by singing songs, which was a remarkable achievement by their teachers. That is just one of the examples of the good-natured way in which people responded to the demands of the evening.

I pay my own tribute to the doorkeepers, because we depend upon them. It was stressed in a recent rehearsal for something similar to this incident that we would be subject to the direction of the doorkeepers and, with their usual tact and firmness, they made sure that we were in the right place at the right time and guided to the places where we ought to be taken.

As I said at the end of my short statement, there are things to be thankful for, and there are certainly things we can learn from. Thank goodness the incident was not worse than it was. Just imagine the real horror if the person had broken into the Chambers with his knife. It is for that, the fact that the incident was stopped so early, that we owe so much to PC Palmer and his colleagues.

European Council

Lord Newby Excerpts

Tuesday 14th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I listened carefully to the Leader of the House repeating the Statement, and I am grateful to her for doing so. It must have been a strange meeting because there really was an elephant in the room. The one thing we most need to talk about with our European partners is what everybody else sitting round that table is thinking about but nobody is talking about—Brexit. I welcome the issues that were discussed, but the longer-term implications for all of these will naturally be different for the UK and it would be helpful to know whether at any stage during this informal summit acknowledgement was made of the different position of the UK, given the long-term nature of some of the plans being made.

The Statement says that, in all the items that were discussed,

“we were able to show once again how Britain will continue to play a leading role in Europe, long after we have left the European Union”.

That is certainly welcome, and it is that vision of a post-Brexit UK that we have all been waiting to hear more details about. We have heard aspirations and we have had general statements, but how it will be achieved has been missing. Given that the Prime Minister was able to show the summit how this will be achieved, is the Leader able to share this information with your Lordships’ House today? Perhaps she could follow up with a Written Statement to Parliament so that we can have the same information as was made available to the European summit.

The summit also discussed organised crime, which does not feature in the Prime Minister’s Statement, apart from a brief reference. Clearly, EU-wide co-operation on serious and organised crime and terrorism has been, and remains, essential. It is an issue on which the UK has taken a lead. The Minister will understand that any reduction in the capacity to tackle these issues, or in the level of co-operation, engagement and information sharing, would damage the interests of the UK, and indeed of the EU.

Given that part of the discussion of security and defence at the summit was on future legislative work, can the Minister say how far we will engage with such legislation, and whether, as a parallel process, the implications for UK legislation will also be examined? Can she also confirm that, following the great repeal Bill, primary legislation will be needed on these issues? Furthermore, in respect of information sharing, have any representations been made, or concerns expressed, by our own security and policing organisations about the implications of our leaving the EU?

Yesterday during Questions, the noble Lords, Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord Rosser, raised serious concerns about the Government’s failure to provide full information on illegal weapons imported into this country. I know that that information is available. Can the Minister say whether it is being shared across the EU with other police forces and security organisations?

I welcome the Prime Minister’s reassurance to the EU about our commitment to NATO. She also discussed this issue with President Trump, and indeed her comments to the summit about other countries investing more echo the comments that he made at the press conference he held with the Prime Minister. Given that the Prime Minister and President Trump appear to think alike on this point—and we agree that all members should commit to 2% of GDP on defence—can the Minister nevertheless confirm that our commitment to NATO is absolute?

In relation to growth and competitiveness, the Prime Minister called for,

“further steps to complete the single market and the digital single market”.

That was said without any sense of irony, but is the Prime Minister really pressing the EU on the single market that she is intent on withdrawing from? More out of interest than anything, I ask: what was the response from the summit?

The Statement also refers to the EU’s free trade agreement with Canada, and the Prime Minister pressed for an agreement with Japan, because,

“these agreements will also lay the foundation for our continuing trading relationship with these countries as we leave the EU”.

Can I ask how? We will have to negotiate our own trade agreements and, given that the Prime Minister has indicated that she wants to take us out of the customs union, surely it follows that we will lose access to all trade agreements negotiated by the EU.

Finally, we get to Article 50 and Brexit. In the Statement, the Prime Minister confirms her long-held date of the end of March for triggering Article 50. I would have hoped, however, that the Prime Minister would have taken this opportunity—her first Statement to Parliament following parliamentary acceptance of the Bill—to say something a little more meaningful, possibly even to confirm her personal commitment on EU and UK nationals living across Europe and on Parliament’s role in the process. We thought that there was a good case for the amendments on these points and that the outcome was the result of stubbornness on the part of the Prime Minister, who wanted a clean Bill. A Statement today, or something in this Statement, would have been extremely helpful and welcome.

The Statement also refers to us taking back control of our borders. Can the noble Baroness confirm that this will require legislation, and confirm the Prime Minister’s commitment to maintain the soft land border with the Republic of Ireland?

The time for broad sweeping statements has gone. It is time for the detail. Words in the Statement, therefore, that offer a “strong, self-governing global Britain”, “control over our borders”, a “stronger economy”, a “fairer society”, a “better deal” and a “brighter future” are meaningless: without some flesh on the bones, they are just words.

Furthermore, a lecture on not playing politics or creating uncertainty is misjudged. There is uncertainty here and now—across the whole of Europe—about the position of EU nationals, UK nationals, business and the environment, and the uncertainty is growing. We have now heard demands for a second referendum in Scotland and calls for an Irish border poll. The Government must act to reduce uncertainty and provide some certainty. I press the Prime Minister for detail not from any party-political motive but out of a need for her to do all she can to remove that uncertainty.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, like the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, I was struck by the Prime Minister’s claim that she was,

“able to show once again how Britain will continue to play a leading role in Europe, long after we have left the European Union”.

The Statement sets out the roles we play at present in a number of areas but I wonder how these roles will be maintained in the years to come. For example, if we are,

“providing additional staff to support interviewing of Iraqi, Afghan and Eritrean nationals”,

in Greece, do the Government envisage that we will play this sort of role beyond Brexit? The Prime Minister then said that,

“we need a better overall approach to managing economic migration”.

In which form does she envisage that such an overall approach will be co-ordinated involving the United Kingdom?

On the western Balkans, the Prime Minister said:

“We will provide strategic communications expertise to the EU institutions to counter disinformation campaigns”.


This is very welcome but how does the noble Baroness, Lady Evans, envisage that we might provide that kind of support, vital as the Government claim it is, once we have left the European Union?

Turning to growth and competitiveness, the Statement says that the Prime Minister wants us,

“to build a new relationship … that will give our companies the maximum freedom to trade with and operate in the European market”.

That is of course welcome but outside the single market and the customs union it is impossible to have the maximum freedom to trade, so how do the Government marry that welcome assertion with their actual actions? The Statement goes on, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, pointed out, with the Prime Minister rather patronisingly calling,

“for further steps to complete the single market and the digital single market”,

at the very moment when we say that it is such a costly thing for the United Kingdom to be a member of the single market that we are leaving it. Was that well received? Did they think, “Yes, the Prime Minister really has a consistency of approach on that”?

The Statement mentions strengthening our trade relationship with the Commonwealth. Does the noble Baroness, Lady Evans, accept that our trade with the Commonwealth amounts to 9% of our total trade, compared to 44% of our total trade being with the EU? Does she believe that the scope for increased trade with the Commonwealth will be greater than the threat of reduced trade with the EU outside the single market?

On triggering Article 50, the Prime Minister said that,

“we will use this moment of opportunity to build a stronger economy and a fairer society”.

Those are very familiar words on these Benches:

“A Stronger Economy and a Fairer Society”,


was indeed the Liberal Democrat general election slogan. While imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I jolly well hope that the Government have more success with it than we did.

But a stronger economy and fairer society is impossible to achieve outside the European Union. There is no significant body of opinion, beyond one or two noble Lords opposite, which believes that we will have a stronger economy. If we do not have a stronger economy, we will not have as strong public finances, and without public finances being as strong, it is frankly impossible for the state to promote the kind of fairer society of which the Government, and in particular the Prime Minister, speak so often.

Finally, the Statement says that,

“this is not a moment to play politics or create uncertainty and division. It is a moment to bring our country together”.

I wonder whether the Prime Minister, or indeed the noble Baroness the Leader of the House, has tested that sentiment on the 3 million EU citizens living in the UK and their families.

Death of a Former Member: Lord Waddington

Lord Newby Excerpts

Monday 27th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords as we have heard, Lord Waddington had a long and distinguished career as a lawyer, a politician, Governor of Bermuda and indeed Leader of this House and Lord Privy Seal. Many in your Lordships’ House today will know him well from his service in the other place as an elected MP and a government Minister, and will know that he was a man of strong conviction. I think he would have relished the description I read of him yesterday as being a no-nonsense politician.

Despite his very strong loyalty to Margaret Thatcher and his long and distinguished service as a Minister, he was surprised to find himself appointed Home Secretary, having himself recommended our Lord Speaker, the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, for the position. I was surprised to find that we had something quite unusual in common: as the noble Baroness said, in his case it was during his maiden speech in this House that the then Prime Minister, John Major, listened from the Throne steps.

Like many noble Lords, Lord Waddington’s dedication to and affection for his constituency, Ribble Valley, continued long after his elevation to your Lordships’ House. There is no doubt that he missed being its MP, given his deep commitment. In some ways he wrote his own obituary when, in an interview in The House magazine some years ago, he said with disarming self-deprecation—I think he was having a joke:

“I would like to be remembered as a decent local buffer who wasn’t all that clever, but in his own way tried to do his best”.


What more can any of us ask than that we try to do our best? On behalf of these Benches I offer sincere condolences to his wife Gilly, his family, his colleagues and his friends.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, unlike many Members of your Lordships’ House I did not know David Waddington personally, although I recall a number of notable speeches that he made from the Benches opposite during my time in the House. It is fair to say he was not one of life’s natural Liberal Democrats, but my colleagues cheered when, as Home Secretary, he referred the case of the Birmingham Six to the Court of Appeal, where of course their convictions were eventually quashed.

The only thing I can really claim to have in common with Lord Waddington is that, like me, he was a proud northerner. He could not help being a Lancastrian but he certainly made the most of it and, as others have said, was plain-speaking and had the characteristics of straightforward behaviour that northerners like to think they share. It is typical of Lord Waddington that he is having his memorial service in Clitheroe rather than across the road; that says a lot about where his priorities lay, and those of his family. Like other noble Lords who have spoken, I wish to pass on our good wishes and condolences to Lord Waddington’s wife and family.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, in wishing to associate myself with all the remarks that have been made, I am conscious that, like them, I was not in the House when Lord Waddington was serving here as Leader, although I was here when he returned from Bermuda in 1997.

Time marches on. Only 20 of the current membership of the Cross Benches were actually in the House when he was Leader, reflecting the fact that there is quite a bit of distance between us and that time. My predecessor in the office of Convenor at the time was Baroness Hylton-Foster. The office that I hold now was very much in its infancy, so I do not think she had quite the same warm working relationship that I have with today’s Leader.

I have one advantage, however. I remember sitting below the Bar during a debate at which Lord Waddington was certainly present. It was a debate on the future of the legal profession—a matter in which I am sure that he, as a former lawyer, took a close interest. The Government’s policy was, it is fair to say, not universally welcomed by the profession. It is worth recalling that the Lord Chancellor, who was sitting on the Woolsack at that time, was the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. That reminds us of two things: that the Lord Chancellor sat in this House, and that the Leader was not the only Member of this House to sit at the Cabinet table. Those are two things we have lost, and which I am sure Lord Waddington would have valued very much.

When I passed through Gray’s Inn this morning on my way to the House, the flag was flying at half mast, in a very fitting tribute to Lord Waddington, as he was a bencher of that inn. One of his sons, who followed his father to the Bar, is also a member of that inn. To him and to all the other members of the family I would like, on behalf of all those on these Benches, to extend our condolences on their sad loss.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Newby Excerpts

Monday 20th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby (LD)]

Well, my Lords, finally we have the Article 50 Bill. If the Government had brought it forward last July, six months of delay could have been avoided. Since then, three things in particular have happened that require us to take stock and to fashion a response.

First, there was the deliberate decision of the Prime Minister to prioritise control of EU migration and the severing of links with the European Court of Justice over membership of the single market and the customs union. As George Osborne put it, they have,

“chosen … not to make the economy the priority in this negotiation”.—[Official Report, Commons, 1/2/17; col. 1034.]

Although some seek to portray that as an inevitable consequence of the 23 June vote, it was not. Many prominent Brexit supporters, including Nigel Farage, Dan Hannan and the Brexit Secretary himself suggested that we might remain in the single market—for example, by adopting the Norwegian precedent. So the decision to rip us out of the single market was a deliberate choice by the Prime Minister, and one that deserves to be challenged.

Secondly, as a consequence of the form of hard Brexit chosen by the Government, they have been forced to pivot our trade and indeed our political priorities towards the USA, and they have done so with unalloyed enthusiasm. In any era this would be a risky strategy, but the election of Donald Trump makes an America-first policy by this country not only risky but demeaning. The bold assertion by the Foreign Secretary that the US “shares our values” is unsustainable under a Trump presidency. On a wide variety of fronts—not just his ban on asylum seekers but on free trade, climate change and relations with Russia and Iran—Trump’s policies are opposed to British values and interests. I am sure the Prime Minister is acutely aware of this, yet her headlong rush to the US, offering them the trinket of a state visit, only serves to underline her weakness and the weakening position of the UK.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, will the noble Lord give way?

[Lord Newby]

No, my Lords. There are 190 other speakers; the noble Lord will have his chance.

Thirdly, we have now had the White Paper setting out the Government’s negotiating stance. With the stark exception of its rejection of the single market and the European Court, the White Paper is a rather horrifying mixture of pious aspiration and complacent illusion. The Prime Minister’s preface sets the tone. British exceptionalism abounds. We have,

“the finest intelligence services, the bravest armed forces, the most effective hard and soft power”.

What is more, according to the White Paper,

“the country is coming together”,

with,

“65 million people willing us to make it happen”.

The whole tone portrays the UK as a sort of a fettered giant, a national equivalent of Clark Kent which, having entered the Brexit telephone booth, can emerge as a Superman ready to take on the world and win. Either the Prime Minister believes this, which is deeply worrying; or she hopes that by whistling a happy tune, all will work out well, which is scarcely more reassuring.

In view of these developments, how should this House approach the Bill before us? Can we and should we seek simply to send it on its way, or can we and should we seek to amend it? On the first question, the answer is crystal clear. We have the power to ask the Commons to think again on any piece of legislation, large or small. I hope the Government will accept that. When we had the Statement in response to the Supreme Court ruling on 24 January, the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, said that,

“we in this House, as an unelected Chamber, need to tread with considerable care on this issue as we proceed”.

The clear implication was that we should not be pressing amendments. In response, however, the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, replied:

“It would be very useful if, when we debate this Bill and there are opposing views and we ask the other place to think again, we do not have Ministers, or anybody else, talking about constitutional crises. This place cannot have the last word. A Government defeat in your Lordships’ House is simply a request to the Commons to look at the issue again—that is all it is”.—[Official Report, 12/1/17; cols. 561 and 567.]


That sums up the position perfectly.

I therefore hope that Ministers in this House will not mimic the attitude of some of their colleagues in another place by dismissing concerns or queries raised by Members of your Lordships’ House as merely opposing the will of the people or by saying that we are trying to obstruct the process. No significant body of opinion in this House is seeking to prevent the passage of the Bill, but there is a world of difference between blocking the Bill and seeking to amend it.

So, if we clearly have the power to amend the Bill, should we positively seek to do so? I believe that we should. Brexit is the most important single issue which has faced the country for decades. For many of us, the approach being adopted by the Government is little short of disastrous. For those of us—and there are many in your Lordships’ House—for whom Europe has been a central theme of our entire political lives, to sit on our hands in the circumstances is both unthinkable and unconscionable.

Many of us throughout the House have always been proud internationalists. We have a profound and deep-rooted commitment to partnership with our European neighbours, a partnership which has resulted in a peaceful Europe where we work in co-operation with one another to overcome common adversaries—climate change, disease, organised crime, terrorism—and to share in the benefits of close relations with our neighbours. How could we possibly justify supine acceptance of what the Government are proposing to ourselves, let alone to others who are watching?

How then should be seek to amend the Bill? There are several sorts of amendments that were debated in the Commons. These amendments related to parliamentary scrutiny, to the role of the devolved Administrations, to impact assessments and to negotiating priorities, from the relationship to the single market to the rights of EU citizens in the UK. All of these are extremely important areas. We on these Benches will want to work across the House with others who seek to pursue them, but for us the key question as we begin the negotiations is: what happens at the end of the process? The Government were not given a blank cheque by the electorate. Voting for departure is not the same as voting for a destination.

If and when the Prime Minister reaches a Brexit deal, who will ratify it on behalf of the nation? Only three bodies could do so: the Government, Parliament, or the people as a whole. The Government have already said that they will give Parliament a vote on the deal, although at present they seem to be willing to offer a vote on only one option—to accept the deal or crash out of the EU. We will of course seek in your Lordships’ House to give Parliament a more meaningful role at the end of the process, but even if we succeed, Parliament, having decided to ask the people to express a view on whether they wished to leave the EU, should not have the final say. If only parliamentarians had had a vote in the referendum, our future EU membership would be secure. Both MPs and Peers overwhelmingly thought that our better interests were served by staying in the EU, including, of course, many members of the current Administration—not least those in your Lordships’ House.

At the end of the process initiated by the people, only the people should have the final say. I realise that many in your Lordships’ House are strongly opposed to referenda and shrink from the prospect of having any more, but we now have a country more deeply divided on Brexit than ever. The anger of those who wanted to leave is now matched by the growing anger of those who wish to remain—particularly our young people. If at the end of this process we are to come together as a country, we need to dissipate this anger, and we believe that giving the people the final say will help to do so.

I must also challenge those many Members of your Lordships’ House who have approached me and my colleagues in recent weeks to say that they believe Brexit is a catastrophe for the country and fervently wish to avert it. How, other than a referendum, do noble Lords think this could be seen to be done legitimately? Having remitted power over our membership of the EU to the people, who but the people could ultimately exercise the power to think again? Of course, the idea of such a referendum should not be alien to the Government. David Davis has argued over a number of years for what he calls a “decision” referendum at the end of the negotiating process. He has not said much about that in recent months but he did let his guard slip in concluding his Second Reading speech on the Article 50 Bill in the Commons when he quoted Gladstone, who said: “Trust the people”. Trust the people. My Lords, we agree.