Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Baroness Penn

Committee stage
Monday 26th January 2026 Grand Committee

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly in support of Amendments 112, 114 and 117 in the names of my noble friends Lady Coffey and Lady McIntosh of Pickering, which aim to set a cap on asset allocation.

In response to our debate on the previous group, the Minister consistently described the mandation power as seeking to achieve a “modest but meaningful” investment in private assets; and said, importantly, that it was designed as a “narrow backstop” to delivering the Mansion House Accord. If that is the case, why is the proportion of assets that can be mandated under this power not capped in line with that accord? Indeed, as I read it, it could be up to 100% of assets. Why is that? The Minister may point to consultation and other measures that will constrain the use of the power but, for something so controversial and which the Government say they do not want to use, I cannot understand why they are not constraining it in primary legislation.

I will touch on timescales in our debate on the next group, but the Minister says that this Government do not want to use this power. However, as things currently stand, it would be open to the next Government to use the power, and the one after that—as well as a couple of Governments in between if we do not go to full Parliaments, as we have not always done in recent years. In those circumstances, it would also be sensible to limit the power to delivering what the Government say they want it to do.

Why do the Government not want a maximum limit in primary legislation? What is their objection to it? The cynic in me wonders whether the power is so widely drawn that, when we remove mandation on Report—I might be getting ahead of myself but that is on the cards—the Government could bring forward a series of concessions at ping-pong to limit the use of the power to what they say they want it to do. I am sure that that is not the case, but it might be better than the position in which the Government think that this power, as it appears in the legislation, has been drawn appropriately. I am really interested in the Minister’s response on this.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I will come in at this moment because I wish to speak in favour of the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, which I have co-signed, because he is unable to be with us today. These words are both mine and the noble Lord’s, more or less.

I am not in favour of the asset allocation mandation clauses generally. Amendment 119, however, seeks to probe the reasons why the Government have chosen a particular asset class for mandation: private equity. I have no problem with pension schemes choosing to invest in private equity; historically, it has generated good returns, in large part because of the use of debt to leverage those returns. Private equity may be a good investment for pensions schemes, and this amendment would not prevent that.

However, my understanding is that the principal motive of the Government for mandating asset allocation is to drive greater economic growth. I agree that venture capital and private debt—two other asset types listed in the Bill—may indeed create growth, but I do not understand why the Government believe that private equity is a growth driver. I have to assume that this is because the Government have fallen for the story that the private equity industry often tells about how much investment it makes, how many people it employs, what great returns it generates, and so on. What private equity actually does is buy existing companies or assets, allowing the previous owners to cash out.

Very rarely, I believe, does a private equity company provide new equity into a company. Rather, it typically does the opposite: it funds the acquisition with a very high proportion of debt. The leveraged buy-out is the basic model of most private equity activity. That debt is not borrowed by the private equity itself; rather, it is pushed down into the underlying company, and the interest and any debt repayments are made from that company’s profits.

One effect of this is to reduce the taxable profits—in other words, the debt interest is tax deductible—and therefore the tax is payable by the company. The debt itself is often located in offshore low-tax locations, so tax is not paid on the interest by the private equity or the lender, which may well be related. This is a direct loss to the Exchequer. I hope the Minister can reply to that.

The high leverage also has the effect of reducing investment by the company in its products or services. Instead of investing in its future growth, the company now has to use much of its cash flow to pay the interest. What often happens is that the private equity undertakes a cost-rationalising exercise so that the profits are improved in the short term with a view to selling the business again as soon as possible. The leveraged effect of the debt means that private equity can make a substantial gain even if the underlying business grows only in line with inflation.

The cost rationalisation often invokes workforce reductions. Studies indicate that private equity-owned companies typically have lower levels of employment even five years after the original buy-out. This certainly tallies with my experience, although I have not had the benefit of the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, who worked for private equity-owned companies during his career.

In the meantime, if there are any profits left, rather than being invested in growth they are usually paid out as dividends. In fact, it is not uncommon, if a company has managed to reduce its debt ratio, for a PE to recapitalise the company to put in more debt in order to allow the payment of a dividend. Of course there are exceptions, but, as many examples show, such as Thames Water—indeed, much of the water industry—Debenhams, Southern Cross and Silentnight, private equity cannot legitimately claim to be a force for growth. Are there good returns for its investors, and particularly its partners? Yes—but is it a force for growth? It is not really. It is said that £29.4 billion was invested in UK firms by private equity in 2024. Yes, but that investment was almost entirely in buying out existing businesses, which is very different from providing capital for growth.

So the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, and I are baffled as to why the Government think that mandating pension funds to invest in private equity will be good for the country. It may be good for someone but not necessarily for the country. I repeat that I have no problem with a pension fund investing in private equity if the trustees believe it is right for the fund and its members, but I see no benefit, and probably a downside, for the country as a whole. If we must mandate allocation, let us at least target it to asset types that generate growth, such as venture capital or infrastructure. If the Government’s primary motive for mandation is to drive UK growth, we should exclude private equity from the list. I hope the Minister and her colleagues will give thought to this, because we are on the same wavelength and we want the same answer, but not in the way that the Bill proposes at the moment.

Corporate Profits: Inflation

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Baroness Penn

Thursday 29th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My noble friend is right that, when we think about tackling inflation, the number one area is remaining steadfast in our support of the independent Bank of England as it takes action to return inflation to the target of 2% through monetary policy. However, government does have a role to play. We must make difficult but responsible decisions on tax and spending so that we are not adding fuel to the fire. We also need to take longer-term action to bring down prices, whether that is investing in our future energy security or looking at the tightness of our labour market and taking action to get people back to work—for example, through our ground-breaking reforms to childcare.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I hear what the Minister says, but a new word has appeared: “greedflation”. Everyone knows that the idea of a business is to make a profit; no one is saying that they should not make a profit. However, there is now greedflation, which is the padding of profits. We see people struggling while companies are making surplus profits above what is reasonable. Have the Government any real answer to this?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the answer is twofold. We are looking closely at the data and will continue to do so, but we do not see the pattern that the noble Lord refers to so far. We will also work with the regulators in the main areas—the FCA when it comes to the banking sector and the passing on of higher interest rates to savers, as well as mortgage holders—and look at the work of the supermarkets to ensure that their profits are fair and reasonable and driven by fair competition in the sector. We will keep all of that under review. We have agreed a series of steps with the regulators to make sure that action is taken if competition is not working as it should.

Inheritance Tax: Cohabiting Siblings

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Baroness Penn

Tuesday 20th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have attempted to draw up a system that is fair but recognises the unique status of marriage and civil partnerships. As I pointed out to your Lordships’ House, very few estates fall subject to inheritance tax, and we have put in place processes to ensure that those who live in the same house, for example, are able to meet their obligations over time, to lessen the impact of inheritance tax.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, one can leave all above £325,000 to your spouse, your civil partner, a charity or a community amateur sports club. Can the Minister explain how siblings are less important than a community amateur sports club?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I do not think that is the rationale behind the approach. The rationale in distinguishing between marriage and civil partnership and other relationships is the unique legal status and the unique legal and financial obligations that people enter into in that regard. As the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, referred to, this question was also referred to the courts, which found in the Government’s favour.

Farmers and Landowners: Tax Consequences

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Baroness Penn

Monday 28th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am afraid that I cannot give the noble Lord the Answer he desires. I can confirm that HMRC is discussing the issues he has raised with Defra both to clarify how existing law applies, for example, to the production, sale and use of carbon units in different environmental schemes, and to look at the inheritance tax question he raised. The Government have shown that we will act to clarify the tax rules where appropriate for the farming programme. For example, legislation is being introduced to clarify that payments under the lump sum exit scheme for farmers are treated as capital receipts and, therefore, charged to capital gains tax or, for companies, to corporation tax as chargeable gains.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I hear what the Minister says but the government paper of October 2021 said that the Government would

“review guidance on the tax treatment of trees and woodlands, to provide greater clarity to landowners on how new and existing trees on their land affect tax liabilities.”

Nothing has been forthcoming. Can the Minister update the House on the progress of the review? She mentioned HMRC but most people do not know what the guidance is.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, we are iterating our approach as we develop these schemes. Quite a lot of them are new, and many different aspects are being piloted or developed. It is important that, as development happens, we take into account the tax considerations and implications of the new schemes. I can reassure noble Lords that we are aware of some of these questions and issues. We are looking at them very closely and, as the policies are developed, we are taking that into account in the Treasury’s input into Defra schemes.

Covid-19: Death Duties and Inheritance Tax

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Baroness Penn

Thursday 24th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, as I have set out, the Government’s approach to inheritance tax at the most recent Budget was to freeze those thresholds, which will raise additional funding. The Government’s plans for social care will be set out later this year.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I feel the Minister’s reply and arithmetic are rather optimistic. The Office for Budget Responsibility repeatedly reported that the public finances were unsustainable, even before the pandemic resulted in a 24% increase in public sector net debt in the past two years. How do the Government intend to put the public finances on to a long-term sustainable path? What will that mean for taxes and public spending in the short, medium and long term? The Minister’s reply and the arithmetic used are not believed by the Office for Budget Responsibility.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I am glad to hear the noble Lord’s support for fiscal responsibility and repairing the public finances. As I set out, a number of measures were taken at the Budget to do this. These included freezing the income tax personal allowance until April 2026; increasing the rate of corporation tax to 25% from April 2023; freezing the pensions lifetime allowance and annual exempt allowance; and measures to tackle tax avoidance, evasion and non-compliance, which will raise an additional £2.2 billion by 2025-26.

Inheritance Tax: Cohabiting Siblings

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Baroness Penn

Wednesday 10th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, to add to my previous answer, for those in certain circumstances, joint ownership would also mean that a house had to exceed £650,000—more than the average house price, including in London—to be liable for inheritance tax. As I say, there are arrangements in place whereby you can have up to 10 years to pay off inheritance tax in instalments if the estate contains an unsold house.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD) [V]]

My Lords, in support of the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, without a change in the law, it pushes siblings who can afford it to employ expensive lawyers to incorporate a discretionary trust in their wills, which on a joint estate of £800,000 will save tax of £130,000, not as the Minister has just said. Does she agree that there is an urgent need to change the law to make such imaginative tax avoidance unnecessary?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I am afraid the Government do not agree that this is an urgent issue. It is an issue that we have debated a number of times in this House, and, while we have sympathy with those who may be affected, we emphasise that it is a minority of people. Having looked very carefully at this issue, we believe that the current status is the right one.

New Businesses: Capital Gains Tax

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Baroness Penn

Wednesday 20th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the Government always consider the need to balance raising revenue with the principles of fairness and market efficiency when we take tax decisions. All tax decisions also take into account the impacts of behavioural change for those affected. At any fiscal event, the Government produce and publish policy costings which are scrutinised by the OBR, and these include relevant behavioural impacts on revenue.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD) [V]]

My Lords, business asset disposal relief is mistargeted if its aim is to stimulate investment. Does the Minister agree that it has become a form of retirement relief for successful and wealthy entrepreneurs?

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings in a Relevant Place and on Public Transport) (England) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Baroness Penn

Monday 12th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Palmer of Childs Hill) (LD)]

I call the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Baroness might be on mute, so she could try unmuting herself.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Palmer of Childs Hill) (LD)]

I think we will go to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft.

Inheritance Tax

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Baroness Penn

Wednesday 20th May 2020 Lords Chamber

The Question was considered in a Virtual Proceeding via video call.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, from our latest estimates, inheritance tax receipts for 2019-20 totalled £5.1 billion. HMRC has a duty to collect the correct taxes as laid down by Parliament, and it carries out compliance checks into inheritance tax returns to ensure that customers pay the right amount. Inheritance tax is payable within six months of the date of death and must be paid before probate is granted and the assets in the deceased’s estate are distributed.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her reply. She refers to the UK’s total annual £5 billion inheritance tax, which is paid only by the wealthy and the middle-class, who have less ability and wealth to avoid death duties by imaginative and creative tax plans. Virtually no IHT is paid by the very wealthy in the UK. Tax planning is sensible, tax evasion is illegal, but creative tax avoidance is also unacceptable. The Office of Tax Simplification was asked to review the tax. Can the Minister tell us about its recommendations and the Government’s response to them, in particular on how to curb the creative tax industry and those who use it?

[Baroness Penn]

My Lords, the Government thank the Office of Tax Simplification for the work it has done; they are looking at the results of its two reports very carefully. I reassure the noble Lord that since 2011, inheritance tax and trusts have been brought into the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes—DOTAS—regime, which means that any new and innovative inheritance tax avoidance scheme involving transfers into trust must be disclosed to HMRC, and gives the Government powers to take any enforcement actions necessary.