Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Lord Davies of Brixton

Committee stage
Thursday 5th February 2026 Grand Committee

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

I offer my support for the amendment moved and the other amendments proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann. She suggested that, in some ways, her amendments are more important than mine. I agree and I will come on to why that is so in a moment. I recognise the importance of the government amendments but, in the words of my noble friend the Minister, we have to recognise the impact of the lack of past increases on those affected.

Retrospection has been mentioned. It is a complete red herring. By its nature, any form of compensation will be retrospective. We are not going to compensate people for what happens in the future. The compensation being paid all too slowly to the Post Office managers is retrospective. The money being paid to the infected blood victims is retrospective, but we still have to pay. “Retrospection” is not a relevant word in this context. We are clear, and we all agree, that these people have lost out, to use the words of my noble friend the Minister, so retrospection is a red herring.

My noble friend the Minister also mentioned the significant impact on public finances. That is true because it has been defined in that way, but we are setting the rules. We are not being subjected to rules imposed by outside interests. If the Treasury does not have the wit or ingenuity to adjust the rules in a way that would allow for these payments from the PPF, which, in reality, would have no impact whatsoever on public expenditure, those who have been affected by the lack of increases will draw their own conclusions as to what the Government really want to do. My noble friend also said that this is a compensation scheme and that it was never designed to offer full redress. Well, that is what we are debating; it is exactly what we are saying is wrong and should be rectified.

The point that I wish to emphasise in this section is the need for urgency. That is why this amendment is the important one. To be brutal, we are dealing with a declining population. It has been estimated that more than 5,000 pensioners with pre-1997 rights are dying each year. We have to take action. Even my amendment, which I proposed to bring the pension up to its current real value, does not address the issue for these people because many of them will not be here. Compensation via lump-sum payments, along the lines suggested in these amendments, are, I believe, the way in which this problem should be addressed. I strongly support these amendments.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I will briefly speak in support of the amendments. I emphasise that they look at how to do this by lump-sum payments, rather than by increasing pensions. That is important. It is what we in my profession used to call “creative accountancy”. It seeks to achieve a result by lump sums, more or less off the Government’s balance sheet. There has been some blending of the funds in the past. It is a way of doing it in a creative accountancy way, largely getting rid of the problem by lump-sum payments. I hope that the Government will look at this in a creative way in order to provide some justice without incurring an ongoing debt.

Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Lord Davies of Brixton

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd February 2026 Grand Committee

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

Once again, I find myself in the position of being in broadly the same area as the noble Lord, Lord Fuller. I agree with much of what he said. We can always be in favour of reviews. The only substantial objection is that the Secretary of State—or more accurately, the hard-pressed officials—has better things to do, particularly with having to implement the Bill when it is an Act.

The Pensions Commission is also crucial. The noble Viscount, Lord Younger, for whom I have a lot of respect, challenged me on why I am not doing more on adequacy, in effect. Of course, the answer is that I fully support the Pensions Commission; that is where the focus should be on that area. I think my noble friend the Minister is aware of some of my views on the level of inadequacy in pension provision, but the commission is where it should be at.

Pensions are inherently political. I make no apology for making political points. I am against the idea of moving towards a joint regulator. There are two broad types of pension provision: individual contracts and employer-sponsored collective provision. I am very much in favour of the latter as opposed to the former. The former has, and always will have, severe problems, whereas collective provision is what has led the high standard of private provision across, broadly, half of the working population.

The problem with having a single regulator is essentially cultural. One or the other approach is bound to predominate in its thinking. It is impossible to ride two horses, unless you are in a circus, and that is not where we want to be. We need a regulator for collective employer-sponsored provision, and a regulator for market-based provision. That is what we have got so, in a sense, in my few remarks I have already carried out the review that has been called for and reached a satisfactory solution.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, what worries me is that the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, says we should grab the challenge. I am not sure that I am ready to grab the challenge and not convinced that we should abandon, in any way, the Financial Conduct Authority. I wonder what representations have been made by the FCA on this. I would like to hear how the FCA feels about the Pensions Regulator taking over and what has happened in the past.

Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Lord Davies of Brixton

Committee stage
Monday 19th January 2026 Grand Committee

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

This seems like a good moment to come in. I first ask the Minister: do the Government agree that a responsible use of surpluses should strengthen confidence in DB schemes and not leave members feeling that prudence has benefited everybody but them? In this, I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Fuller, because people do feel aggrieved.

I have three amendments here. Amendment 32 is designed to ensure that regulations take account of the particular circumstances of occupational pension schemes established before the Pensions Act 1995. Members of pre-1997 schemes, so often referred to in this debate, are often in a different position to those in later schemes. These schemes were designed under a different legal and regulatory framework. Current legislation does not always reflect those historical realities, creating unintended iniquities.

Amendment 32 would require regulations under Clause 9 to explicitly consider—that is all—these older schemes. It would allow such schemes, with appropriate regulatory oversight, to offer discretionary indexation where funding allowed, so it would provide flexibility while ensuring that safeguards were in place. It would give trustees the ability to improve outcomes for members in a fair and responsible way, and it would help to address the long-standing issue of members missing out on indexation simply because of their scheme’s pre-1997 status. It would also ensure that members could share in scheme strength where resources permitted. Obviously, safeguards are needed, and Amendment 32 would make it clear that discretionary increases would be possible only where schemes were well funded. Oversight by regulators ensures that employer interests and member protections remain balanced.

My Amendment 41 is about advice. When you are as knowledgeable as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, you do not need the advice, but many pensioners are missing it. This amendment would allow a proportion of pension scheme surplus to be allocated towards funding free—

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

The amendment talks about surpluses, so it is talking specifically about defined benefit schemes. It is not talking about DC schemes because such schemes do not have surpluses. I just want to be clear.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

I thank the noble Lord; it is just that impartial pension advice for members is not always available to everybody. Many savers struggle to navigate pension choices, whether around a consolidation investment strategy or retirement income. Without proper advice, members risk making poor financial decisions that could damage their long-term security. If you are in the business, you have to take the good with the bad, but we would like to give members a bit of advice if the money is available. Free impartial advice is essential to levelling the playing field.

Surpluses in pension schemes should not sit idle or be seen simply as windfall funds. Redirecting a small—I stress “small”—proportion to fund member advice would ensure that surpluses are used in a way that benefits members directly. Amendment 32 would not mandate a fixed share; it would simply give the Secretary of State powers to determine what proportion may be used. This would, I hope, create flexibility and safeguards so that the balance between scheme health and member benefit can be properly managed. Further advice from surpluses reduces the need for members to pay out of pocket and it builds trust that schemes are actively supporting member outcomes beyond the pension pot itself.

Amendment 44, to which my noble friend Lord Thurso referred, would insert a new clause requiring the Secretary of State to publish

“within 12 months … a report on whether the fiduciary duties of trustees of occupational pension schemes should be amended to permit discretionary indexation of pre-1997 accrued rights, where scheme funding allows”.

It aims to explore options for improving outcomes for members of older pension schemes. I maintain that this amendment is needed because many pre-1997 schemes were established before modern indexation rules. Trustees’ current fiduciary duties may limit their ability to avoid discretionary increases, which is what this amendment is about. Members of these schemes may be missing out on pension increases that could be sustainable and beneficial. I will not go on about what the report would do, but there would be many benefits to this new clause. It would provide an evidence-based assessment of whether discretionary indexation can be applied safely; support trustees in making informed decisions for pre-1997 scheme members; and balance members’ interests with financial prudence and regulatory safeguards.

The amendments in this group are clearly going to progress on to Report in some way. Sometime between now and then, we are going to have to try to amalgamate these schemes and take the best bits out of them in order to get, on Report, a final amendment that might have a chance of persuading the Government to take action on these points. Many of the amendments in this group—indeed, all of them—follow the same line, but there needs to be some discipline in trying to get the best out of them all into a final amendment on Report.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Lord Davies of Brixton

Committee stage
Wednesday 11th June 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Sikka very much regrets not being here today, for totally understandable personal reasons.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

That matter is not in this group.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

Could the noble Lord wait, please?

As the noble Lord has reminded me, my noble friend’s amendments are in the next group. My noble friend Lord Sikka will not be here and the lead amendment will not be moved; however, the issues raised in those amendments are directly relevant to this group. In order for us obtain further clarification, it would be helpful to the Committee if my noble friend the Minister could, in our discussion on this group, give a broad indication of the response that would have been made to the following group so that those Members who are interested can consider what has been said and take a view on whether the specific issues that would be raised in the next group, but are germane to this group, should be raised on Report. I think that it would be helpful to have the matter that would be raised in the following group clarified in answer to this group because, to be honest, they totally overlap.